camaro vs...

rank a 2000ish camaro z28(any one with a ls1) against other sports cars like the 300zx, 3000gt, evo 8, wrx sti, rsx, supra, ect....where does it stand in stragith line, 1/4 and 1/8 mile, drifing, road races, and jus basic performance...i hvae looked at the numbers but i want other opinos on them...

Everyone is going to have their opinion, but here's mine. I would personally take the 6m Z28 LS1 over any of them. They will all run pretty comparable times stock. The other cars you mentioned are either expensive even in old age or expensive period. The LS1 is pretty affordable for its age. Also the others are turbo charged, the LS1 is just raw muscle and you have power anywhere. You can run great quarter times and you are also effective from a roll with the LS1. The EVO and STI are really totally different all together. They are fast in a quarter and pretty quick but its really due to the launch. If if weren't for AWD they would be 14 second cars and any of the other cars would kill it. You dont always want to do high RPM drops on you clutch with the AWD so I really don't recomend them, because thats how you get your fast 1/4 mile times. The supra is just plain over priced for its age although they can be fast highway cars. You are more or less paying for rarity and its sort of a status symbol. Drifting in my experience is 95 percent driver, any of the RWD cars would be preferable. If you learn to drift you will be able to do it with any of these cars. I would say the LS1 camaro is your best buy for the money and overall performance. I think stock it would either take or come close to all these cars in any category other than a dirt track where the evo and sti are only suited.

yeah i agree 6m Z28 LS1 is my pick, 310 hp V8, but if any other one i would go with the supra

LS1 Camaro or Firebird, for the money there really isn't a better performance value, except maybe an LT1 F-Body. As for the others the Supra is a fine car, but they are quite pricey, the 300zx n/a isn't even in the same ballpark, the TT 300zx is pretty fast however, the 3000GT is at best iffy in terms of reliability and more than likely slower than an LS1 F-Body, and The Evo and STi are considerably more expensive and only marginally faster if at all. The RSX is a joke in this comparo.

i dont know what the LS1 camaros run stock but i know they are very quick...mid 13's???

if this is so...the AWD cars mentioned will be very close in 1/4 mile performance. even the 3800lb VR4 will run a mid 13 in the 1/4 mile. but liek someone said, this is all due to AWD. the supra is the only other one that is comparable that is RWD, but it is way over priced.

out of all the cars mentioened...the LS1 camaro is the best bang for your buck. but everyone is gonna have different opinions on what they would buy...

the camaro also probably handles equally as well out of all the cars except the EVO and STI which will probably out run it on any track. and it probably handles quite a bit better than the VR4....

ill say that the LS1 is the best buy...though that does not mean everyone should or would buy one.

Haha I didn't see the RSX originally, cool car but as far as performance goes its nowhere close to any of the others.

The AWD cars (3000GT, STi, and Evolution) may run a similar quarter mile time to the Camaro Z28, but take away the launching factor and they aren't nearly as fast. And I don't know where the hell you got the RSX from, it's completely outclassed in every way in this comparison. So, I'd compare the Camaro Z28, Supra TT, and 300ZX TT.

They will all run a pretty similar quarter mile time. I think the Camaro will run the best, followed very closely by the Supra TT, followed by the 300ZX TT. They are all very close, though, and a race between the three would most likely come down to the driver. The handling is equally close. I'd venture to guess that the 300ZX is the best of the bunch, but the Camaro is definitely no slouch. Its handling doesn't get nearly as much credit as it deserves, and anyone who actually participates in autocross or club racing events knows what a dominant force they are in their class. The Supra is the worst handling of the bunch. It just wasn't designed for the race track.

Obviously, the Camaro is quite a bit cheaper than the 300ZX and the Supra, so the fact that it is very competitive with them in terms of performance is impressive. However, there is no such thing as a perfect car, and the Camaro is no exception. The price you pay for such affordable performance is a lack of comfort and build quality. The visibility is horrendous, the interior materials are very cheap and flimsy, the seats and steering wheel are plain-jane, the shifter is clunky and difficult to use, and the driver feedback is vague. If you want raw performance and don't care about anything else, get the Camaro. If you want a more refined car with sophisticated styling and heritage, get the 300ZX. If you want to make unbelievable amounts of power cheaply and reliably, and be the envy of every tuner kid in America, get the Supra.

The AWD cars (3000GT, STi, and Evolution) may run a similar quarter mile time to the Camaro Z28, but take away the launching factor and they aren't nearly as fast. And I don't know where the hell you got the RSX from, it's completely outclassed in every way in this comparison. So, I'd compare the Camaro Z28, Supra TT, and 300ZX TT.

They will all run a pretty similar quarter mile time. I think the Camaro will run the best, followed very closely by the Supra TT, followed by the 300ZX TT. They are all very close, though, and a race between the three would most likely come down to the driver. The handling is equally close. I'd venture to guess that the 300ZX is the best of the bunch, but the Camaro is definitely no slouch. Its handling doesn't get nearly as much credit as it deserves, and anyone who actually participates in autocross or club racing events knows what a dominant force they are in their class. The Supra is the worst handling of the bunch. It just wasn't designed for the race track.

Obviously, the Camaro is quite a bit cheaper than the 300ZX and the Supra, so the fact that it is very competitive with them in terms of performance is impressive. However, there is no such thing as a perfect car, and the Camaro is no exception. The price you pay for such affordable performance is a lack of comfort and build quality. The visibility is horrendous, the interior materials are very cheap and flimsy, the seats and steering wheel are plain-jane, the shifter is clunky and difficult to use, and the driver feedback is vague. If you want raw performance and don't care about anything else, get the Camaro. If you want a more refined car with sophisticated styling and heritage, get the 300ZX. If you want to make unbelievable amounts of power cheaply and reliably, and be the envy of every tuner kid in America, get the Supra.

very very well put kman. drive the cars, straightline power isn't always everything in a car. you pay for more car if you get the japanese imports. however its also more expensive to maintain and modify.

from a roll do the camaro and other RWD's really outclass the AWD's by alot?

from a roll do the camaro and other RWD's really outclass the AWD's by alot?

i wouldn't say its always true. considering the fact that most twin turbo Z's only puts down 230-240whp and weights 3500 lbs. and they trap at 102mph. a evo puts down 240whp to all 4 wheels, and a sti puts down 260whp to all 4 wheels. so a evo would be neck to neck with a twin turbo z from a roll, and the sti would beat it. however a supra puts down 280whp stock so it would walk all the japanese imports.

I didn't mean to say that AWD is useless from a roll. It just doesn't make sense to buy an STi or Evo for highway racing, when you could easily get a Supra or a Camaro and get the job done right.

i dont quite get the arguement that the camaro would be cheaper than a 300zx.... depending on the year, i know ofa guy thats selling a 300zx for 7 and a half. yes its tt, yes it runs fine all thaat jazz. however i havent been able to find an ls1 fbody car for under 13 anywhere. just thought id ask so i dont sound like a douchebag...what are tt300zxs worth these days?

The only way you're going to find a decently running 300ZX TT for $7,500 is if its a really old model ('90 or '91). The LS1 F-Body, on the other hand, was produced between '98 and '02. Obviously, since it's a much newer car, it's going to cost a lot more. However, compare even a '94 or '95 Camaro Z28 to a '94 or '95 300ZX TT, and the Camaro should definitely be quite a bit cheaper.

Like any car a deal can be found. Last year my buddy bought a 989Z28 with corvette wheels and ttops and full suspension and a few bolt ons. Really nice looking car, really proved to me what an LS1 can do. It was 11000 last summer. Had 40000 miles.

http://www.thunderracing.com/projects/?action=read&pgid=69 ---- check that out its a trans am but same thing has camaro lol

i wouldn't say its always true. considering the fact that most twin turbo Z's only puts down 230-240whp and weights 3500 lbs. and they trap at 102mph. a evo puts down 240whp to all 4 wheels, and a sti puts down 260whp to all 4 wheels. so a evo would be neck to neck with a twin turbo z from a roll, and the sti would beat it. however a supra puts down 280whp stock so it would walk all the japanese imports.

your forget one major thing...gearing. i dont know about the EVO and STI but the TTZ keeps pace with a supra on a highway roll, stock vs. stock. the Z32TT is a dog off the start compared to most other cars...but 2nd and 3rd gear more than make up for this. this and weight makes the Z32TT not that great of an autocrosser but an excellent long curvy road car in the mountains.

there are a couple supraTT vs. 300zxTT, 1/4 mile and highway videos, floating around the internet. according to these the supra doesnt beat the 300zx by more than a car length on the highway up to 150mph and more than 2 car lengths on 1/4 mile strip.

its funny to watch a modified HP Z32TT race an equally modified HP supra or rx7TT or something...the Z32TT gets quite a few car lengths behind until it hits 2nd gear. then it gradually catches back up...

there is even a video of a Z32TT racing a viper in the 1/4 mile. i didnt use this example because the viper is N/A and the Z probably has bigger turbos so they took a while to spool, not a very good example. but anyways, the Viper totally demolishes this Z32 off the start...atleast 7-10 car lengths...then when they both switch to 2nd gear, the Z just flies past the viper like it was standing still. pretty cool...

EDIT: sorry, the site that had a couple of these videos i mentioned is not working... http://www.chargen.net

Z's kick ass...

Z's kick ass...



agreeed.

Z's kick ass, but Camaros haul ass. :grinyes:

RX7 FD. Can do everything the Camaro does, just as cheaply (Well I'd imagine, not sure how expensive it is to modify a Rotary in the US).

RX7 FD. Can do everything the Camaro does, just as cheaply (Well I'd imagine, not sure how expensive it is to modify a Rotary in the US).

i havent seen an FD3S in good condition around here for less than $14k...and trust me, i keep my eyes open. most of them are in the upper teens, $18-19k.

there is probably about 6 or 7 LS1 camaros in my local newspaper classified section for less than $12k.

Is the FD the last generation RX7? My neighbor has one of them. Its a cool car and definately fast but I would take that over that Camaro. The interior is falling apart, like the door handles are cracking off and other interior parts are loose, although it does fit well around you. Also the thing has lots of mechanical issues. He just got the turbos replaced and all kinds of other things. Also if you just put on a cold air it throws the computer and it spikes in boost badly so you can't even floor it. He needs to get some computer or something to correct it. I think its due to the absence of a mass air meter or something like that. All i know is the its a real performer but full of problems. Reliability issues, and pricey for its age.

Is the FD the last generation RX7? My neighbor has one of them. Its a cool car and definately fast but I would take that over that Camaro. The interior is falling apart, like the door handles are cracking off and other interior parts are loose, although it does fit well around you. Also the thing has lots of mechanical issues. He just got the turbos replaced and all kinds of other things. Also if you just put on a cold air it throws the computer and it spikes in boost badly so you can't even floor it. He needs to get some computer or something to correct it. I think its due to the absence of a mass air meter or something like that. All i know is the its a real performer but full of problems. Reliability issues, and pricey for its age.

just because your neighbor doesnt take very good care of his doesnt mean there all ave reliability issues and the interior is falling apart...

eventhough the motor only lasts ~100k miles...this is usually the most reliable 100k miles you will ever drive. if you figure in maitenance on an average car over 5 years against an engine rebuild every 5 years for the FD, it averages out to be about the same.

and the car is a refined sports car, not a chassis with a V8 slapped in it. you ahve to follow strict guidlines when modding rotary engines or you will have problems. but follow the guidlines and you should and will be a very happy person. a rotary is a totally different beast than your average 4 cylinder with a turbo slapped on...this is what people dont understand and go on to say that the car is "shitty".

anyways, i would put the FD in the top 3 best production Japanese cars ever built...

Wasn't attacking the RX7. I was just pointing out what actually are common problems with it. The interiors commonly fall apart in the same areas. The engines are known to be troublesome, particularly on the last generation ones. I agree wholeheartedly that its a refined sports car and that it is arguably the best japanese sports car. Also, it certainly is a different beast than what most people are used to. That however dosn't negate the problems with it. Now the camaro does in fact have a plain interior and it may not wrap around you like the RX7 does, but its durable like rubbermaid haha. Look into it the last generation RX7 did fall apart in the same places on the interior and nothing more realy needs to be said about the motor. Good motor but way to finicky for most people.

Wasn't attacking the RX7. I was just pointing out what actually are common problems with it. The interiors commonly fall apart in the same areas. The engines are known to be troublesome, particularly on the last generation ones. I agree wholeheartedly that its a refined sports car and that it is arguably the best japanese sports car. Also, it certainly is a different beast than what most people are used to. That however dosn't negate the problems with it. Now the camaro does in fact have a plain interior and it may not wrap around you like the RX7 does, but its durable like rubbermaid haha. Look into it the last generation RX7 did fall apart in the same places on the interior and nothing more realy needs to be said about the motor. Good motor but way to finicky for most people.

oh, i wasnt attacking you either. i was just stating my opinion about the car.

the only trouble i really hear about the engines is that they need rebuilt alot sooner than most engines. also, that they get horrible gas mileage...i know a guy that owns an RX7, he had the engine rebuilt at 120k miles...that is virutally the only problems he has had with it, besides basic maitenance (filters and such). his interior is also all in one piece. i havent seen or hear about this interior problem. tell your neighbor to just strip it and race it. :lol:

BTW: the FC3S can be just as reliable as any other car...their is one guy i talked to a while ago that lives quite a few miles away. anyways, he had 175k miles on his TII and still running VERY strong.

anyways, their is reasons why the a 2000 camaro costs ~10k and a 1993 RX7 costs ~17k. build quality and engineering for one...when a 93 sports car can compete with brand new sports car, it mean a little something.

i think my GTP is built very well too...and it is quicker than most cars in its class but i woulnt say my GTP or a camaro is of the same standards as an RX7, supra, 300zx, VR4, or SVX. todays cars and these cars are not even in the same category.

just because your neighbor doesnt take very good care of his doesnt mean there all ave reliability issues and the interior is falling apart...

eventhough the motor only lasts ~100k miles...this is usually the most reliable 100k miles you will ever drive. if you figure in maitenance on an average car over 5 years against an engine rebuild every 5 years for the FD, it averages out to be about the same.

and the car is a refined sports car, not a chassis with a V8 slapped in it. you ahve to follow strict guidlines when modding rotary engines or you will have problems. but follow the guidlines and you should and will be a very happy person. a rotary is a totally different beast than your average 4 cylinder with a turbo slapped on...this is what people dont understand and go on to say that the car is "shitty".

anyways, i would put the FD in the top 3 best production Japanese cars ever built...



the other two being....?

the other two being....?

really i was just putting into perspective...because the nissan R390 was a production japanese car. and all japanese cars that werent offered to the US were japanse production.

so i will refine my post to say japanese production cars under 100k offer to the US...:lol:

i have to include the 300zxTT, FD, and id say....hm....early 90s NSX these are my choices and everyone is entitled to their own.

i didnt choose the supra or VR4 because i dont care for the styling. i would still consider a Supra TT just to have and be a daily driver/highway monster if i found a deal on one but as far as top 3, nah.

oh, i wasnt attacking you either. i was just stating my opinion about the car.

the only trouble i really hear about the engines is that they need rebuilt alot sooner than most engines. also, that they get horrible gas mileage...i know a guy that owns an RX7, he had the engine rebuilt at 120k miles...that is virutally the only problems he has had with it, besides basic maitenance (filters and such). his interior is also all in one piece. i havent seen or hear about this interior problem. tell your neighbor to just strip it and race it. :lol:

BTW: the FC3S can be just as reliable as any other car...their is one guy i talked to a while ago that lives quite a few miles away. anyways, he had 175k miles on his TII and still running VERY strong.

anyways, their is reasons why the a 2000 camaro costs ~10k and a 1993 RX7 costs ~17k. build quality and engineering for one...when a 93 sports car can compete with brand new sports car, it mean a little something.

i think my GTP is built very well too...and it is quicker than most cars in its class but i woulnt say my GTP or a camaro is of the same standards as an RX7, supra, 300zx, VR4, or SVX. todays cars and these cars are not even in the same category.

K3, you are a good guy. I like being on the same thread as you because I can write long posts without it getting out of hand and taking offense to it. I agree with you about most of that. As with any car you will have the same filter and oil changes. All problems with the RX7 aside, if you can find one in premo shape, they are awesome cars. They are fast agile and attractive. The only thing I was surprised by was that you didn't think the Camaro was in the same category as the RX7, supra, 300zx, VR4, or SVX. I can understand the GTP, its a good car but its really just a family car with a supercharger, fast or not its really not the same thing. I agree that the camaro dosn't have the creature comforts that the RX7, supra, 300zx, VR4, or SVX do, but its structure is very well built. The motor is strong, its got a 3 link rear that really hooks up well, its got a T-56 and the performance matches. Not trying to change your opinion, just curious myself.
And just a question about the SVX, isn't that the subaru? I thought that thing was crap? I really never looked into it at all. I didn't know it was any good, maybe you can give me some info on it. Thanks.

The Subaru SVX was offered in America between 1991 and 1997. The top model featured all-wheel-drive and a sweet 230 hp flat six. It's got plenty of juice, but the only transmission option was a 4-speed automatic that was not up to the task of sending 230 horses to all four wheels, and a 3500-lb curb weight, combined with a somewhat luxury-minded suspension, didn't bode well for the car's handling. It's a nice, unique luxury-sport coupe, but it's not in the same class as the Camaro or 300ZX when it comes to raw performance.

I don't think I could ever choose my three favorite Japanese sports cars; there are just too many greats. I guess the best I could do would be the 1994-1999 Subaru Impreza WRX STi (particularly the sedans), the 1994-2001 Honda Integra Type R, and the 1991-2002 Mazda RX-7. Honorable mention: any Fairlady Z, the 2nd gen. MR2 GT-S, the Lancer Evolution series (particularly 1 through 4), and the ST205 Celica GT-Four. Shit, I knew I couldn't list just three. :lol2:

K3, you are a good guy. I like being on the same thread as you because I can write long posts without it getting out of hand and taking offense to it. I agree with you about most of that. As with any car you will have the same filter and oil changes. All problems with the RX7 aside, if you can find one in premo shape, they are awesome cars. They are fast agile and attractive. The only thing I was surprised by was that you didn't think the Camaro was in the same category as the RX7, supra, 300zx, VR4, or SVX. I can understand the GTP, its a good car but its really just a family car with a supercharger, fast or not its really not the same thing. I agree that the camaro dosn't have the creature comforts that the RX7, supra, 300zx, VR4, or SVX do, but its structure is very well built. The motor is strong, its got a 3 link rear that really hooks up well, its got a T-56 and the performance matches. Not trying to change your opinion, just curious myself.
And just a question about the SVX, isn't that the subaru? I thought that thing was crap? I really never looked into it at all. I didn't know it was any good, maybe you can give me some info on it. Thanks.

well thanks...i like to get into "arguments" over this about cars without all the name calling. just stating opinions and facts. it makes this worth while.

anyways, as stated by kman...the SVX is a very overlooked car. the only problems was the transmission because it only came in automatic. the automatic was not very well built and usually fails just past 100k but for someone who really likes the car, the manual transmissions from other subarus can be swapped in pretty easily. this is very popular among the smaller community of SVX tuners in the states.

the aftermarket isnt that big but i do know a smaller SVX dedicated busines just introduced a custom whippel(?) supercharger kit thats puts it into some big numbers.

the H6 is a very strong and very powerful engine. from the factory, it is very detuned. i even remember reading that subaru designed the car to compete successfully with the other jap GT cars of the time but they couldnt get the engine tuned right to pass emissions or something, so they detuned it stuck a standard auto tranny behind it and softened the suspension, and called it a luxury coupe. and it still handles very well for a 3500lb car...id say it could take a VR4 with no problem in the handling department.

if you really want to find out more about the SVX, PM " Vador "...he knows this car like the back of his hand.


i forgot about the 2nd gen mr-2...not that i would have put it in the top 3 but it would be up there on my list.

what i meant by saying the camaro was not on the same level as the early 90 jap cars...the camaros layout is pretty basic. shove a big displacement V8 into a front engine, RWD car. the japanese companies actually sat down for a few years and engineered these cars to be the best. and it shows, beings these cars still rank above the best 15 years later. a car with 300hp in 1990 with a small displacement TT engine that lasts 200k+ miles is alot different than a big V8 pushing not much more HP...you would think 10 years later something would be dramtically better, buts its not...this says alot of good about the build quality of the japanese cars or quite a bit of bad about the newer generation of cars.

not to mention all the new inventions and gizmos on these cars...4 wheel steering, active aero, climate control, electronic suspension...

in my eyes, this is what seperates these cars from a fast camaro, mustang, firebird, transam...its the engineering, design, uniquness, and strive to create something new and better. not put a bigger diplacement motor in the car.

and before anyone says anything, this is not a bash on domestics or camaros...more of a praise of the 300zx, svx, 3000gt, supra, and rx7 at the expense of the camaro. :lol:

well thanks...i like to get into "arguments" over this about cars without all the name calling. just stating opinions and facts. it makes this worth while.

anyways, as stated by kman...the SVX is a very overlooked car. the only problems was the transmission because it only came in automatic. the automatic was not very well built and usually fails just past 100k but for someone who really likes the car, the manual transmissions from other subarus can be swapped in pretty easily. this is very popular among the smaller community of SVX tuners in the states.

the aftermarket isnt that big but i do know a smaller SVX dedicated busines just introduced a custom whippel(?) supercharger kit thats puts it into some big numbers.

the H6 is a very strong and very powerful engine. from the factory, it is very detuned. i even remember reading that subaru designed the car to compete successfully with the other jap GT cars of the time but they couldnt get the engine tuned right to pass emissions or something, so they detuned it stuck a standard auto tranny behind it and softened the suspension, and called it a luxury coupe. and it still handles very well for a 3500lb car...id say it could take a VR4 with no problem in the handling department.

if you really want to find out more about the SVX, PM " Vador "...he knows this car like the back of his hand.


i forgot about the 2nd gen mr-2...not that i would have put it in the top 3 but it would be up there on my list.

what i meant by saying the camaro was not on the same level as the early 90 jap cars...the camaros layout is pretty basic. shove a big displacement V8 into a front engine, RWD car. the japanese companies actually sat down for a few years and engineered these cars to be the best. and it shows, beings these cars still rank above the best 15 years later. a car with 300hp in 1990 with a small displacement TT engine that lasts 200k+ miles is alot different than a big V8 pushing not much more HP...you would think 10 years later something would be dramtically better, buts its not...this says alot of good about the build quality of the japanese cars or quite a bit of bad about the newer generation of cars.

not to mention all the new inventions and gizmos on these cars...4 wheel steering, active aero, climate control, electronic suspension...

in my eyes, this is what seperates these cars from a fast camaro, mustang, firebird, transam...its the engineering, design, uniquness, and strive to create something new and better. not put a bigger diplacement motor in the car.

and before anyone says anything, this is not a bash on domestics or camaros...more of a praise of the 300zx, svx, 3000gt, supra, and rx7 at the expense of the camaro. :lol:

You know that puts a whole different light on the SVX. I didn't know anything about the detuning of it. Its kind of a shame that the emissions took a potentially bad ass cars reputation and completely flushed it down the toilet. I see what you are saying about the camaro not really being in the same class now, you are saying the design is not on par with some of these japanese contemporaries, right? I thought originally that you were referring to the performance not being up to standard. One thing I have to say, not that I am all pro chevy or anything, but that LS1 is really a well designed motor. I was sceptical of it before I ever drove one, but geez that thing has power. You know I dont think we really have opposing points of view, I really do agree with you on everything its just personal preference.

Yeah, the SVX could have been so much more. It's a lot more popular in Japan, for a few reasons. The most important reason, I think, is that in Japan, they have no reservations about shelling out $25,000 for a luxury car with a Subaru badge on the hood. That just doesn't really fly well in America, though, because we put a lot more emphasis on name stigmas and brand cachet. But anyways, it's not overly uncommon to see some crazy-fast SVXs over in the land of the rising sun. The flat-six is really one hell of a motor when unleashed, and Subaru's AWD system is arguably the best one on the market. With some high performance summer tires and a suspension kit, it'd easily run with a VR-4.

You know that puts a whole different light on the SVX. I didn't know anything about the detuning of it. Its kind of a shame that the emissions took a potentially bad ass cars reputation and completely flushed it down the toilet. I see what you are saying about the camaro not really being in the same class now, you are saying the design is not on par with some of these japanese contemporaries, right? I thought originally that you were referring to the performance not being up to standard. One thing I have to say, not that I am all pro chevy or anything, but that LS1 is really a well designed motor. I was sceptical of it before I ever drove one, but geez that thing has power. You know I dont think we really have opposing points of view, I really do agree with you on everything its just personal preference.

yeah i totally agree...the LS1 is a great engine, to say the least. but it is not comparable to the over-engineering if the Japanese high end engines. though it produces big power...i guess its more or less my personal thoughts, but it would be hard to come up with a good argument to say the LS1 is more engineered than those 3.0L Twin Turbo and 1.3L TT rotaries producing 300hp+ and able to modified much more and still lasting 200k miles in most cases.

the cool thing about the SVX is the windows...at first it looks gaudy on the outside and space ship like..but once you have been inside of it and took a step back and really looked at it. its pretty cool the amount of engineering that went into the windows. i had the priviledge to test drive one before i bought my GTP and i was doing 85 on the highway with the windows down...absolutely NO wind noise or vibration. the new eclipse has this same sort of set-up but not quite as extravagant. i have been told that even rain doesnt come inside the car when at speed. this is an example of the sophistication that went into these cars. :)

You know that puts a whole different light on the SVX. I didn't know anything about the detuning of it. Its kind of a shame that the emissions took a potentially bad ass cars reputation and completely flushed it down the toilet. I see what you are saying about the camaro not really being in the same class now, you are saying the design is not on par with some of these japanese contemporaries, right? I thought originally that you were referring to the performance not being up to standard. One thing I have to say, not that I am all pro chevy or anything, but that LS1 is really a well designed motor. I was sceptical of it before I ever drove one, but geez that thing has power. You know I dont think we really have opposing points of view, I really do agree with you on everything its just personal preference.

yeah i totally agree...the LS1 is a great engine, to say the least. but it is not comparable to the over-engineering if the Japanese high end engines. though it produces big power...i guess its more or less my personal thoughts, but it would be hard to come up with a good argument to say the LS1 is more engineered than those 3.0L Twin Turbo and 1.3L TT rotaries producing 300hp+ and able to modified much more and still lasting 200k miles in most cases.

the cool thing about the SVX is the windows...at first it looks gaudy on the outside and space ship like..but once you have been inside of it and took a step back and really looked at it. its pretty cool the amount of engineering that went into the windows. i had the priviledge to test drive one before i bought my GTP and i was doing 85 on the highway with the windows down...absolutely NO wind noise or vibration. the new eclipse has this same sort of set-up but not quite as extravagant. i have been told that even rain doesnt come inside the car when at speed. this is an example of the sophistication that went into these cars. :)

and Kman, i agree...americans care way too much about the name and price. if it is expensive it just much be that much better...this is not true in all cases. and that is just one example...subara has to try that much harder to get sales from the US because not only are they an overlooked brand but they have to compete with the "made in the USA, means better built" frame of mind and it doesnt help that their niche is higher end sporty sedans...unlike nissan, toyota, and honda for the most part.