Ignition

Hey there!

First day I drove my lumina euro 1992 (3.1) I got in trouble...
Visit to mechanics gived the result: Ignition Controll Module and Crankshaft Positioning Sensot need to be raplaced... a total of over $400...
Q1: Is it realistic that both parts got broken simultaneously? Without any of it car would be not driveable... So if one was broken earlier than other - I couldn't drive... But I did... =)
Q2: They ask $195 for ignition control module, but I found that module for as low as $55... (part number is the same as they showed) What the hack?
Q3: Can I replace it by myself? Initial investigation of finding where this one is located brought no result =( Is it hard? Do I need some special tools?
Q4: Can I download some manual, or something about this car?
Q5: this car should have self-test system. How do I use it? (visit to google brought no result =( ) Is it posible without special computer?

Thank you for answers!
Serg.

You can run a self diagnostic by using a jumper wire, it's been so long I'll let somebody else tell you how to do it, I don't want to tell you the wrong thing and have you fry your computer.

When I worked in a shop, we'd often reccomend replacing both the CPS and the ignition module if one was bad. They have about the same service life, so if you replace one, chances are it will be back in a few months with the other one bad.

Shops charge more for parts than if you buy it yourself, that's normal. Usually the markup is less than what they are telling you, though. I only know of a few places that will charge 3x what they pay for a part.

the module sits under the coils. Follow your plug wires to the coilpacks, and it will be under them. It doesn't require any special tools to replace it, but I seem to remember it being hard to get at on your year. Take a look, and see what you think.

If the car runs, but intermittantly won't start or dies, I'd suspect the CPS before the module, but that's just a guess. Lots of times when the module goes bad, it's done. Won't start anymore.

Oh, and unless you have been getting a "check engine" light, the self-diagnostic won't tell you anything about the problem...

Excuse me for stupid questions probably =)
English is not native language for me =) And I'm not keen in mechanics... =)
What is coil and coilpack? I cannot find translation to my native language.
About your suspection... So you suggest try to replace CPS first? WHere can I find this thing? =) And also is it hard to replace?

Thanks!
Serg.

There are 6 spark plugs, 3 on the front side of the engine, 3 on the back. All these 6 wires goes to the front side, below those 3 spark plugs that are on the front side. So tere is a row of 6 wires, plugged below spark plags on the front side of the engine.
So the module is under this place? What do I need to remove to get access to it? Do I need to remove this part where the spark wires comes from? =)
Hm... it seems I cannot clearly express my thoughts =)
Thanks for response!
Serg.

Ok... I've replaced the IC module, and everything was fine.. for a while. But soon problems appeared again. Engine started to stop suddenly. The more I drive - the more often it stops. I thought it was overheating - but the last time it stoped - it was not hot. And actually that last time I was not able to start engine again.
So I thought that's IC module again. Replaced it with new one, but no luck =(
There is no spark on all coils.
Crank sensor resistance is 1KOhm, as read in specs, but I can't get to see whether there are some defects on it. I've read in repair manual how to test it, but can't figure out where is signal wire, and where is +12 wire (purple & yellow) Anyone knows?
Check coil resistance (secondary) - it's ok. Wires OK also.
Code readings does not show any errors, I get code "12" repeated all the time.
Any ideas?
HELP!!!! =(((
Thanx

Replace the crank sensor. I'm sorry, I did not see the last two posts you wrote.

Do you know how can I test it?
In manual I found:
---
Detach the sensor connector and install jumper wires from the power and ground terminals of the sensor connector to the wiring harness. This permits the sensor to receive power and ground without signaling the ignition system during inspection.
NOTE: Do not connect a jumper wire to the signal terminal on the sensor. This will cause the engine to start. Use extreme caution when performing this test.
---
1. detach sensor connector from where: module side, or sensor side?
2. My sensor has only 2 wires - yellow and purple, and no ground (I'm talking about connector to module. Ground should be connected around the sensor itself)
3. which of the wires is power wire, and which is signal? I cannot see it from diagram.
4. Note talks about module as "terminal?"

Thanx!!

And another one... WHy it was running when I replaced the module first time?

And another one... WHy it was running when I replaced the module first time?

I can't exactly explain that, but it does happen. I've seen it many times.

Do both wires from the CPS go to the IM? If only one does, that's the signal wire. The way I understand the test procedure as you posted it, you are to disconnect it at the sensor. I never really tested one, when I suspected it was the problem, it always was. It's a very common fault in these cars.

If I were you, I'd just replace it. If your car has over 70,000 miles on it, you will be replacing it soon anyway, even if it is not the problem. But I am very sure it is.

I've replaced it...
And WOW engine started...
But my happines lasted not so ong.
After about one minute - engine stoped again, and I wasn't able to start it anymore.
So there are new sensor and module.
I've checked coils, but resistance of both, first and secondary wiring matches specifications. So they should be ok, but I don't get the spark anyways =(((

Well crap. Now we have to think about unusual things. Make sure your wiring to the CPS and IM aren't laying on something hot, or sharp, and test resistance from the IM to the sensor, maybe while moving the wiring around to check for a short or open circuit.

wiring is on, I've checked resistance on the module connector and it matches specs.
One thing I can think of - is computer.
What makes me more sure in it - it returns no error codes when testing, even though there is obvious error..

That could be, but it happens sometimes, as the IM is somewhat of a stand-alone system. Did you check for power to the CPS though?

How can I check power? There are 2 wires. one of them signal - another 12V. I don't know which one is which.
But visual inspection of sensor and wires, and connectors brought no results. Everything looks OK.
Resistance - I checked between 2 connectors that goes to the IM, and it matches specs => wires are OK, and sensor should be OK. The sensor is new, so SHOULD need to be replaces with IS =)

If you unplug the sensor, and probe the wiring harness with a test light, you should get a light on one of the wires when someone cranks the motor. That will be your supply, so the other should be your signal. Once you know which is signal, follow it to the IM, and probe that wire as the motor is cranked with the sensor plugged in, and see if you get a variable signal at the IM.

If you have no power supply to the CPS, you'll have to work back from there and see why. Seems like I read where somebody had a problem like that, and rather than find the problem, they just ran a 12v wire fused to the ignition power at the fusebox, and the car ran.

Take a look at your wiring to the ECM, make sure you don't have something fused or melted.

Why it would give 12V only if crank the motor? Why it will not give 12V if just ignition would be on?
If someone cranks the motor - the signal wire shoulg give impulses... but should power be present all the time?
I can check resistance -> there is coil. I don't get at all how it works...
+12V-----3__ground
+Sig ___3
3 - is coil =)
So signal is basically the same 12V, but since crank is rotating, it will decrease 12V to 0 at some point because of moving magnetic field. Am I correct?
So if so - there should be no difference where to plug +12V, cause other wire will always become signal wire? Or there is some chip in the sensor, that needs power?
I will do testing tomorrow... and we'll see what result it'll bring...
Thanx for help!
Serg.

Why it would give 12V only if crank the motor? Why it will not give 12V if just ignition would be on?
If someone cranks the motor - the signal wire shoulg give impulses... but should power be present all the time?
I can check resistance -> there is coil. I don't get at all how it works...
+12V-----3__ground
+Sig ___3
3 - is coil =)
So signal is basically the same 12V, but since crank is rotating, it will decrease 12V to 0 at some point because of moving magnetic field. Am I correct?
So if so - there should be no difference where to plug +12V, cause other wire will always become signal wire? Or there is some chip in the sensor, that needs power?
I will do testing tomorrow... and we'll see what result it'll bring...
Thanx for help!
Serg.

It may be 12v all the time with the ignition on, but just to be sure, I suggested cranking, as it HAS to be on then.

Here is what I am wondering. Do both wires go back to the IM?

I'm wondering if the IM sends power through the sensor, and reads the change in resistance, or if the sensor actually produces a voltage signal of it's own. It seems if you only have two wires, that might be the way it works.

I'm getting tired too. Not thinking clearly. I'll think about it some more, hopefully someone who really knows the theory will jump in. I can always figure it out when it's right in front of me, but sometimes it's hard to think through it when you can't see it.

Sensor has 2 wires, that goes to IM.
One wire is +12V, other one is +Signal.
IM has 3 pins on connector, but it's ok, since IM-side sensor connector has 3 pins also. midle pin is grounded inside the module, and also inside the sensor. It matches specs.
In the repair manual there was a direction to give +12V to the sensor and then crank the motor, measuring voltage on signal wire. Sensor does not change resistance, but changes voltage. if the module does not output +12V to the sensor. How come, if it's new... Even if so - why it sometimes works and sometimes not?
Anyways, need to check =)
I've checked manual, and it tells that if the computer is faulty - car would still run, because all systems will go to "back-up" mode, functioning with basic setup. So computer cannot be the problem here, I suppose...
Anyways... I'll test more tomorrow in the morning. And let you know.
thanx for help!
Serg.

Check it out...
Yesterday.. I've disconnected the wire that connects ICM and sensor, and connected back. And engine started, worked nicely...
Until I was driving back home, and run over the bump. Engine stopped that very moment. I supposed just wiring on crank sensor, cause I have bad connector there.
I waited engine to cool, detached crank sensor wire, and plugged back in. and engine started. =)
I drove to repair area (we have special area in community for repairs) it was ok..
So I disconnected sensor, and replaced it with old one.
Started again nicely, but worked only one minute, and stopped and never started again, even if I unplug and plug wires back in.
BTW, auto parts stores do not have this wire or connector =(
So, I've replaced sensor with new one, plugged everything back in, but still no luck: engine doesn't start.
Checked all coils, power to ICM, etc - everything OK.
So now I can suppose - the reason is the wires, that goes around crank sensor, may be somewhere in there sonnectors loose also, and that makes engine to stop, and start back again when I move them?
So my question: where do those wires go? =)) Can it be connected with ignition somehow?
I'll go now and check them... but it's so hard to do anything, without jack stands... to little space to crawl deep under the car..
Anyways... =) I'll be back soon.
If you have any ideas - let me know
THANX!!!

Drive the car up on a block of wood or something so you have more room. Have somebody crank the motor while you move the wiring around, and see if it starts suddenly.

If the problem seems to be in the connector, go cut one off a car at the junkyard. Or your neighbor's car ;)

Just above the crank sensor I can see some connector, and it's not good connected.
There is just one blue wire, and the thing under that connector is round... but connector seems to be flat.
I'm confused. What is that thing? And there should be one wire? Or I have senond somewhere?
I just took an image of this strange thing....
If this will help:
http://sirota.com.ua/strange_thing.jpg
Wire that goes from there is blue =)
What is that?
thanx.

Also... I'm not able to unplug it... =(
At least I'm afraid to break something... Should I try harder? =)

Looks like an oil pressure sensor. It goes into the motor, right?

Well, crank sensor is lower than this thing... so it goes in the engine.
Ok.. then this sensor is OK, cause I see oil pressure lamp, on dash, and when I try to start the motor, it disapears (pressure is up when starter working..)
Damn... it should be some small wiring problem....

Looks more like the KS than an oil sensor, iirc the oil pressure sensor is a two-wire sensor as well. Either way it wouldn't have the effect you describe on the engine.

Hm... check this out...
Yesterday I was absolutely sure that I found the problem - in fuse (!!!) But it was not just blown fuse... DIS 10A fuse was replaced with 20A fuse, and to that socket (where fuse should be inserted) cooling fan +12V wire was inserted. But it made bad contact, and with time melt the fuse and the socket due to heating. I removed that wire, cleaned socket contacts, installed fuse - and engine started. Put old module and sensor - and still engine starts and runs ok...
But...
Today Already 2 times engine just stopped in the middle of the road. But I was lucky enough to start it again immediately. Both times was when I was not pushing Accelerator pedal, in fact, when I just removed foot from accelerator...
Any ideas? =(