The F1 has been beat

I just got the latest Motortrend and they had a little thing about the new world's fastest supercar. I'm just going to type in some of the highlights I've seen.

Bugatti Veyron 16.4

Engine: 8.0L W-16, 64 valves with 4 turbos
Power: 987 hp @ 6000 rpm 922 lb tq @ 2200 rpm
All Wheel Drive
0-60 claim: under 3.0
0-124 claim: 6.0
0-186 claim: 14.0
Bugatti claims the Vyron will brake from 252 mph to a standstill in less than 10 seconds.

Top speed: 252 mph

y'know what?
i'm not really impressed......

if it were a 6.0 naturally aspirated car with say, around 600 bhp and it could beat the 10 year old F1 then i'd be impressed.
as it is, a 981 bhp car (with twice the amount of torque the F1 has) that can go faster, well, doesn't surprise me.

Thats a damn fast car. Who cares about its displacement and wheather or not its natural aspirated. Its expensive enough that it should have 900hp. 252mph! thats outrageous.Can you imagine that shit passing you when you are going down the highway?

cars can go and have gone faster for less horsepower.
point is, if it didn't end up faster then something is seriously wrong.

It was beaten by the Koenigsegg CCR before anyways.

And I don't think the Veyron is a very special car. It's large and heavy and not very beautiful at all.

The Veyron is the difference between having taste and just having money.


1) Its been plagued by more problems then any other supercar on the market. While VW still claims that it can go 252mph, it has yet to do so. During a test run to impress potential buyers, the driver lost control of the car at 230mph. In order to protect customers, the Veyron is to be limited at 215mph. They promise to attempt one run with an unrestricted car, god save the driver. Apparently it has huge problems with roadhold, drag, and downforce. Oh, and it weighs over twice as much as a McLaren F1.

2) Its ugly as sin, and the interior is one of the gaudiest things I have ever seen.

3) Theres all sorts of talk about how fast this will be in a straight line, but put this on a track against the McLaren F1, and my money would be on the McLaren. The Veyron will probably never see LeMans, let alone a #1 finish.

4) The CCR is a much better performance car. Power to weight ratio is much better.

5) If I had that kind of money, I'd take either an F1 LM or an Enzo, Ford GT, and a BMW 760iL.

Needless to say, I don't like this car

I'd take an Enzo over the Veyron in a heartbeat. And i'm not even that keen on the Enzo...

The Veyron is the difference between having taste and just having money.


1) Its been plagued by more problems then any other supercar on the market. While VW still claims that it can go 252mph, it has yet to do so. During a test run to impress potential buyers, the driver lost control of the car at 230mph. In order to protect customers, the Veyron is to be limited at 215mph. They promise to attempt one run with an unrestricted car, god save the driver. Apparently it has huge problems with roadhold, drag, and downforce. Oh, and it weighs over twice as much as a McLaren F1.

2) Its ugly as sin, and the interior is one of the gaudiest things I have ever seen.

3) Theres all sorts of talk about how fast this will be in a straight line, but put this on a track against the McLaren F1, and my money would be on the McLaren. The Veyron will probably never see LeMans, let alone a #1 finish.

4) The CCR is a much better performance car. Power to weight ratio is much better.

5) If I had that kind of money, I'd take either an F1 LM or an Enzo, Ford GT, and a BMW 760iL.

Needless to say, I don't like this car

I agree with you there. I would rather have the Enzo or the Ford GT than this car. I love the enzo but if I had to buy one to drive it would be the GT because from what I heard its easier to drive(as far as supercars go). If I was going for top end runs though the Enzo takes the cake from everything Ive read. It pulls harder in the top end than many other high performance cars do 0-60. Also its supposed to be extremely stable at 200+mph.

i'd take the Zonda 7.3 anyday over it, and mclaren is still king in my book, though the koeniggsegs is starting to take the cake for me

Never seen the interior, but it doesn't look particularly good to me, and doesn't have the style or prestige that the F1 has seen, but mabe time will tell

But, what I am interested in is how hey solved their big problems... Did the mag say how they created enough downforce to keep the car on the street? also, they were having alot of problems keeping the engine cool (with 4 turbos its no wonder) I wonder how they fixed that problem...

I'd even take an Audi Murcielago over the Veyron.

I agree w/Jimster and crazyjay...the Veyron...w/it's 987hp means absolute jack to me...

The Veyron is just another stupid attempt to take over Mc Laren's throne. Anybody can pull it off with an engine meant to fit a Boeing 747(8 LITERS; 1001bhp). I couldn't agree more with Jim, Jay, and Dinan M3_S2.

I'd even take an Audi Murcielago over the Veyron.

i know audi owns lambo, but do they really call it the audi murc over there jim?

I think it's cool that a car manufacturer had the balls to build a car that has almost 1000 horsepower stock. However, even if it does beat the mclaren, it doesn't seem to be nearly as stable at high speeds and it probably wont beat it on a circuit. anyway, where are you going to be able to go that fast other than an oval track or something? or of course the autobahn. I'd take the mclaren, better handling, more control at high speeds, better on the track. 1000 hp and highest top speed is just for bragging rights.

I'd even take an Audi Murcielago over the Veyron.

What Audi parts does the Murcielago have?

The Gallardo's V-10 starts as an Audi V-8.

Anyways, the Bugatti Veyron isn't a real Bugatti. VW simply bought the name.

yeah, the veyron doesn't hold a candle to the F1 in my books. it may have a crapload of power, but it doesn't have the looks, the feel, or the agility of the F1. plus, with all of the problems they're having with developing and testing the thing, it probably isn't going to reach the expected goals anyways

i know audi owns lambo, but do they really call it the audi murc over there jim?
No :D But I believe that while it shares nothing with Audi, it's not a true Lamborghini, it's FAR too teutonic, it's lost all the character that Lambo's had, it's built far too well, far too easy to drive and far too reliable.


Really nice Audi, really bad Lamborghini.

Does a Lamborghini need to be unreliable and poorly built in order to be a real Lamborghini?

Curb weight:
Bugatti Veryon: 3250 lbs
McLaren F1: 1140 kg = 2500 lbs.

Less weight means better handling and better braking. The Bugatti was a good idea that ended up horrendously overweight to be a contender to the F1.

and when you compare the veyron the the EB110, the big question of 'why' comes up again....

Does a Lamborghini need to be unreliable and poorly built in order to be a real Lamborghini?

In a word, yes.

You're supposed to manhandle a trucklike gearbox and have to sit on the sill to see over the massive haunches.

Owning a Lamborghini and never complaining about driving it is like owning a Porsche and never getting caught out by snap oversteer.

Oh, wait. PSM. :greddy2:

Rather have a porsche a TT vette and a mansion than that ugly piece of force inducted crap. It would be impressive that they made 1000 hp if they had done it with no turbos.

I still think the McLaren F1 is the better car, I could care less about the Bugatti Veyron, its ugly anyway. I would like to see though how the F1 does against an S7 TT. :grinyes:

No :D But I believe that while it shares nothing with Audi, it's not a true Lamborghini, it's FAR too teutonic, it's lost all the character that Lambo's had, it's built far too well, far too easy to drive and far too reliable.


Really nice Audi, really bad Lamborghini.

It isn't as if new Lamborghinis have gizmos like the new BMWs.

Is a new Ferrari an just Alfa Romeo because it is built better than some 1980s Ferraris?

No, Ferrari has never left its calling which is Gran Prix racing. The road cars are tertiary at Ferrari.

And speaking as someone who's seen the repair manual for a 355 Berlinetta, Ferraris are only slightly less high-strung than they used to be.

yeah, and they're not doing too well in F1 this year. Plus the two renaults just beat him off the line and have a 3 second lead. I'm watching the canadian Grand Prix now

Ferrari's issues are FIA caused. The shit that the FIA pulled in the off-season with the tire rule, the two race engines, and the relocation of the wings, were all done to hamper Ferrari.

And, by the way, Michael's in 3rd right now.

yeah, he did really well concidering his start, so did barichello, who started in last. I guess their problems have only been on the start. it's too bad about renault and montoya.

I don't get it. Why is Ferrari (reletivly) sucking compared to those cheese-smelling, baguette-eating, butter-happy French? I never thought that Renault would be owning them in F1. They started out so well, so what happened? I really hope that Ferrari makes a comeback.

Obviously you aren't too aware of Renault's history in F1. Ever since the heady days of the RE20 and Rene Arnoux, Renault has been a force on the grid.

And I'd never say "Too bad about Montoya". Pig-headed Colombian deserves as much trouble as can come to him for his arrogance.

seriously id buy a NISMO Z-tune skyline
$170,000 for a track monster that happens to run a 10.1 1/4 mile? btw thats faster than a CCR, F1, Enzo, ect.

No kidding about the z-tune that thing isn't even a drag car. Too bad that there will only be 20 made

seriously id buy a NISMO Z-tune skyline
$170,000 for a track monster that happens to run a 10.1 1/4 mile? btw thats faster than a CCR, F1, Enzo, ect.

that skyline doesnt impress me so much.
there are low 10 second cars all over, its a tuned skyline- so whats new?

i love skylines but those Z-tuned skylines, i feel like i could do what they did, with less than 100,000 dollars put into a car.

i'd take a enzo over that skyline anyday, you may be able to beat me in the first 1320 ft, but you better beleive that after that point, your toast.
let alone the F1 would make the Z-tune skyline feel like a toddler on a highway run.

I agree with Youngvr4, no doubt that the Ztune is bad ass, but its not going to hang with the enzo or F1. The Ztune is a good car that was tuned by a professional to be a great car. The enzo and F1 are made to be the best all around.

think about it... a 10 second tuned skyline...with a factory warranty! not just another tuner car
and id put it up against the enzo or F1 in a road race once i remove all the unneccesary weight the other supercars dont have in the first place

yeah its probably not as all out performance, but for 1/5th the price of an enzo or 1/8th the price of an F1 with a full interior, waaaaay better reliability, and nearly the speed, i would have to choose the skyline

I don't get it. Why is Ferrari (reletivly) sucking compared to those cheese-smelling, baguette-eating, butter-happy French?
Idiot :rolleyes:

Any more of that crap and you'll be tasting the ban stick.

waaaaay better reliability, and nearly the speed, i would have to choose the skyline

what makes it so much more reliable than the other supercars mentioned?

and i agree with you on the factory warranty thing

but er.... don't all new cars come with factory warrenties too?

not tuner skylines that were compared to the ztune skyline

and ferraris? haha dont make me laugh they are NOT reliable as cars go

that skyline motor was UNDERbuilt at over 500hp
and small details like stainless braided hoses and lines for everything, extra cooling ducts, and even a rear diff. air/water cooler

the way the ztune was built id bet its as reliable as any regular skyline

and what do you know about modern ferrari reliability?

stainless steel braided hoses, lines yada yada yada...
do you know know how a 430 is built?

i have no idea about tuend skylines but if you say it is probably one of the best tuned skylines then i'll go with that but to say it is better than a ferrari is totally missing the point.

im not saying better im just saying more reliable

Why do people love talking out of their asses these days? :rolleyes:

If you're going to say car X is more reliable than car Y, you'd better have something to back that up. And you clearly know jack shit about Ferrari reliability.

If you take any car to a race track and beat the hell out of it all day, things will break. There are always weak points. No doubt the skyline has a great quartermile, but its nothing close to an F1 car when it comes to track manners. The Enzo and the Mclaren are as close to an F1 car as you are going to get without actually getting an F1 car. There is no argument that can be offered that a skyline Ztune will beat an enzo or Mclaren around a race track. Ferrari makes track cars, if the best way to do that was to use regular cars with turbochargers and AWD, thats what Ferarri wouldn't be spending so much money engineering Enzos and cars like that. If you are worried about a warantee than you shouldnt be buying a supercar because its clearly out of your price range. Although the Ztune can beat a Mclaren in a quartermile, its really not even close to the same class as the Mclaren.

christ, its my opinion that i like it better!
yeah like i said before the supercars are faster all around and more all out racecar.
i dont get why i get flamed for pointing out the reliability issues with an F1 derived 600+ horsepower engine. seriously. can you show me proof that its as reliable as a skyline? if you can, then you get the right to flame me for that statement. if not then please respect my opinions formed from my own experiences!
the F1 isnt in the same class for 2 reasons:
car
and PRICE
$1,000,001 vs $170,000
i chose the skyline

what reliability issues?
as far as i'm aware, the V12 in the F1 is one of the most unbreakable engines out there despite it being 10+ years old now.

you're the one going on about how nissan is far more reliable than the ferrari (and /or mclaren).
we're just disputing that.
you prove your statement first.

Hey man, not trying to flame, keep in mind this is a car comparison forum. I wasn't the one who started comparing a skyline to a Mclaren, but since it came up I am here to compare. Like I said before I am sure the skyline is a fine car, but if you want a non conflicting view on it than post in the skyline forum. This is the place for open discussion and comparison between cars.

McLaren F1's at Le Mans 1995 finished:

1st-running
3rd-running
4th-running
5th-running
13th-running
30th-DNF, Clutch
36th-DNF, Accident

So we have 7 McLaren F1's that entered, one of which had a mechanical DNF in a 24 hour race where the winner covered a distance of over 4000 km. That seems like a pretty good reliability record to me.

Source: http://www.experiencelemans.com/en-us/dept_142.html

well im doubting the reliability of ferraris, but...how often do they replace the engines in those mclarens? after every race. they are good as race engines go but they are still race engines.


and if im not mistaken, to dispute something requires proof. i chose to make the statement and without proof on either side its your opinion against mine. thats it.

i think this says it best.

Why do people love talking out of their asses these days? :rolleyes:

If you're going to say car X is more reliable than car Y, you'd better have something to back that up. And you clearly know jack shit about Ferrari reliability.

What makes you so certain of the reliability of the RB26DETT's in the Z-tunes?

I'll tell you this right now, with only 20 cars built, they may have been handled expertly but you're still talking about raised compression, raised boost, lighter pistons, more stress on the rods and crank.

What has been done to the reciprocating assembly on the Z-Tune?

Speaking from experience, the more highly tuned a mass-production engine becomes, the easier it becomes to break it at its weakest point. From my competition understanding, the RB26DETT has severe oiling problems under g-loads and tends to starve the crank. How did Nissan address this for the Z-tune? Dry sump? Bigger oil pan and oil pump on the wet sump system? Bigger oil galleries in the block?

Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if the Z-tune has MORE reliability issues than a typically high-strung exotic. The exotic engines' issues come from detuning racing engines and expecting them to tolerate stop and go driving every once in a while. The Z-tune's problems will come from expecting a tuned version of the engine in a family of midsized sedans to do serious performance work.

well im doubting the reliability of ferraris, but...how often do they replace the engines in those mclarens? after every race. they are good as race engines go but they are still race engines...

I'm sure the engines were either new or recently rebuilt before the race, and either changed or rebuilt after the race. With multimillion dollar budgets for a single race, they would be stupid to not prep every aspect of the car as best as is possible. 4000 km on race conditions is WAY harder on an engine than anything you will ever see on the street. For comparison, the team I work for rebuilds the engine before and the engine is taken apart and thoroughly examined after a 12 hour race....and this is in an ITS 1995 Mazda Miata, which are known for having very good reliability in endurance races. One 24 hr race is more stress and strain on the engine than many of the McLaren F1's will ever see in their lifetime.

crankshaft die forged and balanced to within 1 gram
and even though the engine is stroked over stock, the dimensions are still way oversquare: 78mm stroke x 88mm bore. combined with a 4.8 inch rod, the engine doesnt see that high of piston speeds.
forged 8.5:1 pistons balanced to within 1 gram
chrome moly steel conrods balanced to within 1 gram
it comes with a metal headgasket stock and im not sure but arent ferrari and F1 blocks aluminum? skylines are iron block engines.

btw wanna speak of endurance racing?
the same exact engine setup won its class in the 2004 nurburgring 24hour endurance race and placed 5th overall

and that has what to do with ferrari reliability?

lol nothing
i was just offering some proof to my statements of skyline reliability

The F1 has been beat but not by the Veyron lol. The veyron has reached 231 mph before bodypanels started to vibrate and rip off lol. The veyron will most likely never reach 241 mph let alone the projected 252mph. Bugatti has made them selves look like an ass by claiming the stats and not being able to perform. The new topspeed will be restricted to 218 mph. The only one that has broken the record is the swede car (Zed knows very well) Koenigsegg CCR. With a topspeed of 388kmh... (www.Koenigsegg.com) The veyron rumors are they might be an even high topspeed but for more skilled drivers. The car will in a sence lock up the wheels will only be able to move to a certain degree (10 Im not sure though) and a rear spoiler will be deployed for stability.

388Kmh edit...

Just one note on the ferrari reliablity ... Depends on the models really. I have a name on ferrarichat (F335 has one too :wink: )and people are always complaining about the 360's for the most part. Its not really technical problems though its more of there lack of craftsmanship today. Some people have said the Gap's in the body panels are so wide you can fit your hand in. (not a good sign of quality) The gap space should be alot less an neatly pressed. Go check out some of the complaints for your self - www.ferrarichat.com

firstly, as you noted, body fitment ISN'T a reliablity issue.

secondly, i think it's safe to say that the thing about fitting a hand between panels is an exageration. i've seen bad badly lined up panels where it's lop-sided and a gap has formed that i could fit my little finger into but a hand? besides, bad fitting is what you get for having what is still essentially a hand built car. are you aware of how much effort it takes to form and fit and join aluminium?

thirdly, i would've thought that someone who has been on these boards for as long as you would've learnt how to use that edit button.

finally, what's 288kmh in mph?

288kmh = 179mph

When they tested the CCR at Nardo, it achieved a top speed of 395kmh (242mph).......and according to koenigsegg, it can pull a 9 second quarter mile to boot (eek!!)

Sorry about that its 388...

http://www.koenigsegg.com/graphics/startimage_record2.jpg