Question on Hydrogen Engine

Hello Experts
I read something about using hydrogen as fuel in an internal combustion engine. Here is what it meant...

1. The diagram looks like a normal combustion chamber except that the spark plug is replaced with low heating coil.

2. It's a cylinder that intakes air and pressurize the air. Then pump in hydrogen (in the ratio of 180:1 something like that).

3. Now the coil sends out small spark which creates enormous heat. This heat is now preserved using some techniques.

After this nothing else has been mentioned. I'm not sure if this could work. I assume this could work as there are few strokes involved in this suction, compression, power and exhaust. My questions are...

a. Will this work?
b. If this works, what would be the output? Is it the heat? If yes, then how the heat is used to generate torque?

Plz help me understand this.

Thanks in Advance
Ganesh .R

you know i had a real good link on this subject, think i can find it? no.

anyway yes it does work, it is identical to a standard gasoline powered 4-stoke engine, only difference is hydrogen is the fuel, not gas, i haven't heard of the spark plugs being replaced though.

in fact, water is the source of the hydrogen. water (H2O) is spilt into hydrogen and oxygen, then injected into the engine as fuel.

the idea dates back to at least 1935, i did just find this link - http://www.keelynet.com/energy/garrett.htm

as for you second question, heat produces power in all internal combustion engines. the "controled burn" or exposition does not push the piston down. the heat generated by the burning causes the gases in the combustion chamber to expand, the expanding gases is what pushes the piston down.

search for "water fueled cars" and you might be able to find more information. then there are also fuel cell cars, that use water/hydrogen to create electricty, then power an electric motor.

Hydrogen is a fuel that can be oxidized (burned) in a reciprocating engine like any other such fuel, gasoline, diesel, kerosene, propane, methane etc.

Hydrogen can be used in a fuel cell to create electricity to power an electric car. This is a more efficient use of the gas, since it wastes less energy from creating combustion heat.

hahaha...Thanks folks.
Actually I extracted this information that was published in our local daily. It said that this article was submitted by an automobile student during 2000 or 2001 during his final semester and he had explained this theory. I actually wanted to inquire more on this and thought this is the best place.

So I guess this experiment is not his original idea then.

Thanks folks
Ganesh .R

I know BMW made a car with an internal combustion hydrogen engine. I have a magazine with it in it and when i get to it ill tell you about it. it's at home so ill have to wait till the weekend to get it (i live at boarding school). i think it hade a prety high power output but i'm not sure.

BMW, GM, Ford, they've all made hydrogen powered vehicles, the problem hydrogen can be very volitile and is very hard to contain and transfer...
\

Surprising!!!
When was these cars manufactured? Is it in late 90's or after 2000? Where can I find more info on these? On BMW sites???
Has any Japan manufactured any car engines with hydrogen fuel technology? Plz help me find if they have manufactured one.

TIA
Ganesh .R

Probably the reason you don't find much information about them is because they haven't found reliable ways of making them in production vehicles. A lot of testing and research has been done, but the auto manufacturers don't publish all of their research until it becomes reliable enough to be something they could actually produce.

The big problems with hydrogen are the excess heat and the violent explosion it creates inside an engine. Once they learn how to handle that, hydrogen might be a viable fuel.

That's true, the BMW I read up on was just a research car. Concidering what a small quantity can do (a beaker full makes a pretty big explosion) It'd be a while before i got inside one. Plus, having a tank full of it might be pretty dangerous. Hydrogen fuel cells seem more viable and a more realistic use for hydrogen. I wouldn't expect to see hydrogen in internal combustion engines any time soon.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089614/

http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/

http://www.bmwzentrum.com/exhibits/hydrogen_car.asp

Pardon me if I sound silly, but this is what came into my mind.
With the technology of chips incorporating into automobiles...
1. We have a chip that has already been programmed on the maximum fuel (hydrogen) is required for a safe combustion probably taking into account of the current gear and RPM etc- Call this chip C1.
2. Lets have another sensor chip sensing the throttle open & closes. Call this chip S1.
3. Lets have another chip that actually mixes the fuel+air and sends to the cylinder - Call this chip C2.
4. So S1 senses and sends to C2 and C2 takes the advice from C1 and then sends to cylinder.

Plz ignore if I'd sound too techno-cranky?

Regards
Ganesh .R

another engine that i read about that runs on hydrogen is the Renesis Rotary engine from Mazda. I did a research paper on it and that engine seemed to work the best because of the 3 chamber design.

another engine that i read about that runs on hydrogen is the Renesis Rotary engine from Mazda. I did a research paper on it and that engine seemed to work the best because of the 3 chamber design.
Plz could you kindly explain me more technical details on this?
TIA
Ganesh .R

Pardon me if I sound silly, but this is what came into my mind.
With the technology of chips incorporating into automobiles...
1. We have a chip that has already been programmed on the maximum fuel (hydrogen) is required for a safe combustion probably taking into account of the current gear and RPM etc- Call this chip C1.
2. Lets have another sensor chip sensing the throttle open & closes. Call this chip S1.
3. Lets have another chip that actually mixes the fuel+air and sends to the cylinder - Call this chip C2.
4. So S1 senses and sends to C2 and C2 takes the advice from C1 and then sends to cylinder.

Plz ignore if I'd sound too techno-cranky?

Regards
Ganesh .R

Any comments? Curtis?

Any comments? Curtis?

i don't know where the technology is at in the india auto market, but overhere in the states, as well as in japan and europe, we have been using a setup like that for decades, we call it Electronic Fuel Injection. where there is a computer(commonly called the Powertrain control module or Electronic control module) that uses sensors to measure amount of intake air, throttle position, engine speed, vehicle speed, and engine tempature, as well as a feedback oxygen sensor in the exhaust. the computer then takes that information and compares it to "fuel maps" that are programmed into the computer's memory, and then controls the amount of fuel delivered using electionic fuel injectiors(which are basicly just PWM solenoids)

is that what you are thinking about? then all you would need to do is alter the fuel maps for hydrogen instead of gasoline, and use special fuel injectiors i assume.

WOW...that provokes me for TWO many questions...

i don't know where the technology is at in the india auto market, but overhere in the states, as well as in japan and europe, we have been using a setup like that for decades, we call it Electronic Fuel Injection. where there is a computer(commonly called the Powertrain control module or Electronic control module) that uses sensors to measure amount of intake air, throttle position, engine speed, vehicle speed, and engine tempature, as well as a feedback oxygen sensor in the exhaust. the computer then takes that information and compares it to "fuel maps" that are programmed into the computer's memory, and then controls the amount of fuel delivered using electionic fuel injectiors(which are basicly just PWM solenoids)

India is far behind all these technologies. We are running cars with MPFI and very few sensors. The highest would be somewhere 10-12 sensors. While Chevrolet, Toyota, Honda, Skoda, Ford & Hyundai have just come into market in less than 5 years. The oldest is Hyundai for about 7-8 from now. Most of these cars like Honda-CRV, Ford-Explorer, Hyundai-Accent, Elantra, Sonata, Toyota-Corolla etc have far below standard features and low class materials used although they are international models.

Is Electronic Fuel Injection different from Multi Point Fuel Injection? Is yes how?

[QUOTE=sierrap615]is that what you are thinking about? then all you would need to do is alter the fuel maps for hydrogen instead of gasoline, and use special fuel injectiors i assume.
You got me right, I'm thinking about only this. So is this possible?

TIA
Ganesh .R

Possible?

MPFI is a style of EFI

possible? yes. easy? no

if you really wanted to do this i would start with a carbratior setup, or hydrogen assisting a standard gasoline EFI

Technical links please?

another engine that i read about that runs on hydrogen is the Renesis Rotary engine from Mazda. I did a research paper on it and that engine seemed to work the best because of the 3 chamber design.

Plz have a look at this interesting article. BMW's innovation...
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/bmw-h2r.htm
http://www.bmwtransact.com/hydrogen/program_objective.htm

Plz let me know what you think.

Regards
Ganesh .R

Bah. Producing and storing hydrogen is a waste of energy. There are far better solutions to the energy/pollution problems out there than freakin hydrogen.

case in point:
It will always take more energy to isolate hydrogen than you will get back from oxidizing it.
Even the best containers tend to lose aobut 7% of its hydrogen per day of storage. Imagine your gastank leaking out a few cups overnight
An accident? Extreme high pressure cylinders of explosive gas? No thank you.

What do you get when you oxidize hydrogen and oxygen? Water. What does water do to the innards of engines.. and exhausts..

What about using hydrogen as a power adder? if you run F/I instead of adding more fuel, add hydrogen. The only problem I see with that (other than having a compressed highly explosive gas in the car) is the flame could be too hot and melt stuff if there's too much hydrogen.

Bah. Producing and storing hydrogen is a waste of energy. There are far better solutions to the energy/pollution problems out there than freakin hydrogen.

case in point:
It will always take more energy to isolate hydrogen than you will get back from oxidizing it.
Even the best containers tend to lose aobut 7% of its hydrogen per day of storage. Imagine your gastank leaking out a few cups overnight
An accident? Extreme high pressure cylinders of explosive gas? No thank you.

What do you get when you oxidize hydrogen and oxygen? Water. What does water do to the innards of engines.. and exhausts..

hmmm...So what do you think as an alternate to fossil fuels/hydrogen?
PS - When Henry Ford first invented an automobile, the world (America) lauged at him telling how can something move without horses!!!