97' Olds Eighty Eight - Needs New Motor?
robert paulsen
05-18-2005, 08:11 AM
I have a 1997 Oldsmobile eighty-eight with 95,000 original miles. let me start by saying the car has been well taken care of and always had proper maintenance. It has never caused any problems at all until this past Saturday.
Scenario:
~
I was driving the car for less than 3 minutes since I had just left the driveway and it started to sputter as if it had bad gasoline which immediately struck a chord since I had recently changed brands of gas. However I should note that I quickly disregarded this since I had almost a full tank when I fueled up and was only getting rid of some spare change. I drive about another minute or so and it felt like it was going to die and then my engine light came on (blinking). So I immediately pull the car off the road to a safe clearing and let it idle while I dug out the manual. The car quits only after a minute or so in park position and furthermore the manual suggested restarting the car to see if the engine light stayed solid rather than blink. The light did in fact stay solid this time upon restarting and the engine also died again shortly after, this time however it ran for only about 30 seconds. It did not make any clank sounds or rattles, just a simple sluggishness and would died. Upon restarting for the 3rd time I noticed no attempt for the motor to turn over. I heard no starting/turning sound. At this point I was just simply putting the key in and turning and when I did the gauges and lights would flicker and no sound whatsoever from the motor. It sat overnight, and I tried to start again the next day and almost seemed to have no battery as the lights/interior/gauges were not even coming on now when opening the door or inserting the key. A buddy and I tried to jump it for the hell of it and nothing. Upon the wiggle of the battery cables however the lights did come back on but quickly went off along with some funny gauge movements and flashes. Had it towed to a local garage after making sure my battery cables were securely connected and a few more attempts to start it.
~(2 hours later)
What the mechanic said:
~
The first thing the two mechanics said upon putting the key in the ignition is my battery was dead. One of the mechanics immediately pops the hood and checks the battery and it was fine. He cleans the connection and reattaches the cables and my lights and starter work again and they try to start the car. This time the motor does sound like it wants to start but wouldn't. So they test a few more things and clearly showed me, taking off the belts and checking the oil. The oil level did seem a little high which to them indicated possible water contamination. Upon removing the belts they tried to start the car and told me that it was seized and tried to show me a "pulley" that was supposedly stiff to rotate into a starting position and upon turning the key would rotate slightly and lock. I went for a snack and when I returned asked them if they had hooked it up to a computer since I wanted to know what code it was reporting. They told me there is really no point in hooking it up to a computer since its obvious my engine is locked up and also informing me that "it does not look good at all". They said I may have thrown a rod and asked me again if I heard any clanking sound or odd noise, again I told them no. They had not taken the covers off yet since the car had basically just arrived. They pretty much assured me that I am going to have to be looking at getting a new motor. I was hesitant, and said I would call them back on what I want to do and that my father would probably like to talk to them first before we start talking "new motor". *Nothing further has been done at this point.
My Question(s): (and know I am not mechanic savvy)
~
1.) Does this sound like a load of crap?
2.) Does the problem seem to be electrical considering its at 95,000 with the 3800V6 in well maintained condition and driving beautiful the night before?
3.) Could bad gas cause this?
4.) Could it be the starter?
5.) Could it be a sensor?
6.) The distributor cap?
7.) Some secret "lock the motor up" security feature?
:confused: Help
Scenario:
~
I was driving the car for less than 3 minutes since I had just left the driveway and it started to sputter as if it had bad gasoline which immediately struck a chord since I had recently changed brands of gas. However I should note that I quickly disregarded this since I had almost a full tank when I fueled up and was only getting rid of some spare change. I drive about another minute or so and it felt like it was going to die and then my engine light came on (blinking). So I immediately pull the car off the road to a safe clearing and let it idle while I dug out the manual. The car quits only after a minute or so in park position and furthermore the manual suggested restarting the car to see if the engine light stayed solid rather than blink. The light did in fact stay solid this time upon restarting and the engine also died again shortly after, this time however it ran for only about 30 seconds. It did not make any clank sounds or rattles, just a simple sluggishness and would died. Upon restarting for the 3rd time I noticed no attempt for the motor to turn over. I heard no starting/turning sound. At this point I was just simply putting the key in and turning and when I did the gauges and lights would flicker and no sound whatsoever from the motor. It sat overnight, and I tried to start again the next day and almost seemed to have no battery as the lights/interior/gauges were not even coming on now when opening the door or inserting the key. A buddy and I tried to jump it for the hell of it and nothing. Upon the wiggle of the battery cables however the lights did come back on but quickly went off along with some funny gauge movements and flashes. Had it towed to a local garage after making sure my battery cables were securely connected and a few more attempts to start it.
~(2 hours later)
What the mechanic said:
~
The first thing the two mechanics said upon putting the key in the ignition is my battery was dead. One of the mechanics immediately pops the hood and checks the battery and it was fine. He cleans the connection and reattaches the cables and my lights and starter work again and they try to start the car. This time the motor does sound like it wants to start but wouldn't. So they test a few more things and clearly showed me, taking off the belts and checking the oil. The oil level did seem a little high which to them indicated possible water contamination. Upon removing the belts they tried to start the car and told me that it was seized and tried to show me a "pulley" that was supposedly stiff to rotate into a starting position and upon turning the key would rotate slightly and lock. I went for a snack and when I returned asked them if they had hooked it up to a computer since I wanted to know what code it was reporting. They told me there is really no point in hooking it up to a computer since its obvious my engine is locked up and also informing me that "it does not look good at all". They said I may have thrown a rod and asked me again if I heard any clanking sound or odd noise, again I told them no. They had not taken the covers off yet since the car had basically just arrived. They pretty much assured me that I am going to have to be looking at getting a new motor. I was hesitant, and said I would call them back on what I want to do and that my father would probably like to talk to them first before we start talking "new motor". *Nothing further has been done at this point.
My Question(s): (and know I am not mechanic savvy)
~
1.) Does this sound like a load of crap?
2.) Does the problem seem to be electrical considering its at 95,000 with the 3800V6 in well maintained condition and driving beautiful the night before?
3.) Could bad gas cause this?
4.) Could it be the starter?
5.) Could it be a sensor?
6.) The distributor cap?
7.) Some secret "lock the motor up" security feature?
:confused: Help
Hansnet
05-18-2005, 09:30 AM
My Question(s): (and know I am not mechanic savvy)
~
1.) Does this sound like a load of crap?
2.) Does the problem seem to be electrical considering its at 95,000 with the 3800V6 in well maintained condition and driving beautiful the night before?
3.) Could bad gas cause this?
4.) Could it be the starter?
5.) Could it be a sensor?
6.) The distributor cap?
7.) Some secret "lock the motor up" security feature?
:confused: Help
1. possibly but they may be right
2. could be, but not likely
3. no, I really really doubt it
4. not likely
5. possibly
6. There is not one on your car
7. no
I would say take a photo of your oil cap and post it on here.
~
1.) Does this sound like a load of crap?
2.) Does the problem seem to be electrical considering its at 95,000 with the 3800V6 in well maintained condition and driving beautiful the night before?
3.) Could bad gas cause this?
4.) Could it be the starter?
5.) Could it be a sensor?
6.) The distributor cap?
7.) Some secret "lock the motor up" security feature?
:confused: Help
1. possibly but they may be right
2. could be, but not likely
3. no, I really really doubt it
4. not likely
5. possibly
6. There is not one on your car
7. no
I would say take a photo of your oil cap and post it on here.
Ofnarcr
05-18-2005, 06:53 PM
I would tell them to hook it up to get a code of some sort. I dont know how they work or if your car has to be running when you do it but if they wont hook it up, go somewhere else because they are just pussyfooting around a probally small problem.. either that or a huge problem.
I really dont think the type of gas would make this big of difference.
I dont know what to tell you..
I really dont think the type of gas would make this big of difference.
I dont know what to tell you..
kmohr3
05-19-2005, 01:53 AM
Here's a very possible cause.....
You may have had an injector stick open, forcing a lot of raw fuel into one of the cylinders - enough to make the engine hydrolock. Also, a cylinder could have taken in some coolant somehow (like a headgasket, intake gasket, etc) resulting in a hydrolock condition.
Why not remove all the spark plugs and see if you can turn the motor over then. If the motor is hydrolocked it will turn over after the plugs have been removed. This happened to my daughter's 3.8 Intrigue. Even dumped quite a bit of fuel into the catalyst.
If they read the trouble codes they will most likely be able to tell if a cylinder had a misfire and work from there. I don't know why they won't read the codes for you - it only takes a minute! Do you trust these guys? It kinda sounds like they lack experience. I sure would have checked for hydrolock before telling a customer it's seized. The GM 3800 is almost bullet-proof. Maybe you should get a 2nd opinion.
Then again - maybe they are right??
Good luck and let me know what happens.
You may have had an injector stick open, forcing a lot of raw fuel into one of the cylinders - enough to make the engine hydrolock. Also, a cylinder could have taken in some coolant somehow (like a headgasket, intake gasket, etc) resulting in a hydrolock condition.
Why not remove all the spark plugs and see if you can turn the motor over then. If the motor is hydrolocked it will turn over after the plugs have been removed. This happened to my daughter's 3.8 Intrigue. Even dumped quite a bit of fuel into the catalyst.
If they read the trouble codes they will most likely be able to tell if a cylinder had a misfire and work from there. I don't know why they won't read the codes for you - it only takes a minute! Do you trust these guys? It kinda sounds like they lack experience. I sure would have checked for hydrolock before telling a customer it's seized. The GM 3800 is almost bullet-proof. Maybe you should get a 2nd opinion.
Then again - maybe they are right??
Good luck and let me know what happens.
Hansnet
05-19-2005, 02:20 AM
I have read figures as bad as "3 out of 5 intake plenums will fail within the first 100,000 miles" according to some GM dealerships in reference to the L36 motors.
if that problem goes un noticed the motor is done.
if that problem goes un noticed the motor is done.
robert paulsen
05-19-2005, 06:44 AM
Excellent stuff here people, thank you, your helping alot, I will know more soon and keep you all posted. I should speak to them again today.
*Update* Problem solved, thank you all! edited
Intake plenum is the cause, allowed water to get inside hence the high oil causing hydrolock. Estimated cost of repair including labor is approx $350.00. The motor is fine. You all are great and thanks again. If anything else happens I shall let you all know. :)
*Update* Problem solved, thank you all! edited
Intake plenum is the cause, allowed water to get inside hence the high oil causing hydrolock. Estimated cost of repair including labor is approx $350.00. The motor is fine. You all are great and thanks again. If anything else happens I shall let you all know. :)
Hansnet
05-19-2005, 11:51 PM
Excellent stuff here people, thank you, your helping alot, I will know more soon and keep you all posted. I should speak to them again today.
*Update* Problem solved, thank you all! edited
Intake plenum is the cause, allowed water to get inside hence the high oil causing hydrolock. Estimated cost of repair including labor is approx $350.00. The motor is fine. You all are great and thanks again. If anything else happens I shall let you all know. :)
just FYI
here is from another post....
Application: 1995 - 2003 Series II normally aspirated (L36) Vin K 3800 V6 engines
A procedure is described for modifying the stovepipe and EGR passage in the plastic upper manifold in '95 - '03 L36 engines. This modification is based on two principles. An air gap is created to reduce heat transfer by conduction between the hot EGR pipe and the plastic bore of the upper intake manifold. And, a heat shield in the form of a stainless steel sleeve is bonded to the plastic bore to reflect radiant heat, and to disperse and conduct absorbed heat, further reducing heat stress on the plastic upper manifold. The work is done in conjunction with changing the lower intake manifold gaskets which commonly deteriorate and fail causing harmful internal coolant leaks. A 180 F thermostat is also recommended to extend the life of the plastic gaskets.
This modification does not require special tools or know-how, but will take time and patience to complete. The installation procedure requires that the upper and lower intake manifold be (reasonably) clean and dry and removed from the car. The JB Weld used to bond the sleeve into the upper manifold will need to cure overnight before it can be placed back into service.
DISCLAIMER: This modification has no long-term testing to prove that it will perform as we hope it will. Any time you modify your engine, you are taking a chance that some unforeseen damage or decrease in performance or reliability may result. If you choose to perform this modification, please understand that you do so at your own risk.
Background: The original EGR passage in a new L36 upper intake manifold (plenum) is just a few thousandths larger than 3/4". From '95 to early '99, GM used a 3/4"OD (outside diameter) stainless steel EGR stovepipe that fit closely to the plastic bore in the upper manifold and carried the hot exhaust gas from the aluminum lower intake manifold into the intake air stream just behind the throttle body. Over time, heat from the EGR pipe deteriorates the plastic walls of nearby coolant passages and sealing surfaces resulting in coolant and vacuum leaks.
In late 1999, GM replaced the lower intake manifold with a new design that reduced the bore and the outside diameter for the EGR stovepipe from 3/4" to 5/8". The upper manifold bore for the pipe was left unchanged at 3/4+". The smaller pipe provided an insulating air gap of about .065" between the hot metal and the plastic in an effort to reduce the heat stress on the upper manifold. The new design may extend the life of the plastic upper, but failures still occur in a similar manner as the previous design.
Ken Spragg (KenCo products) developed a kit to repair a damaged upper manifold and to prevent further damage of the plastic composite due to excess heat. The KenCo kit includes a smaller, 1/2" OD EGR stovepipe with a 3/4" shoulder that fits into the lower intake manifold of engines built between '95 and '99. Also provided is a sleeve with an ID (inside diameter) of 3/4" that is fitted and bonded to the bore of the plastic upper with high temperature, quick set epoxy. Installed as directed, the kit produces an insulating air gap of .125" with the sleeve providing a heat shield to further protect the plastic upper. The components appear to be made from cadmium plated mild steel. The kit sells for $80 mail order which includes shipping in the U.S.
My interest was initially focused on finding a less expensive alternative to the KenCo kit for my '95 Bonneville L36, that used stainless steel like GM, and that did not restrict the EGR passage any more than GM's new 5/8" pipe. The result is a specification for a reduced diameter stovepipe fabricated from "off-the-shelf" 304 stainless steel tubing. A ring of 3/4" OD tubing is pressed onto a 5/8" OD tube the same length as the original pipe. A sleeve for the upper consists of a simple ring of 7/8" OD stainless steel tubing whose length is just sufficient to cover the exposed plastic in the EGR bore when it is enlarged to accept the sleeve. The .777" ID of the sleeve gives an insulating air gap of .076" around the reduced diameter pipe. JB weld is specified to bond the sleeve to the plastic upper. It has excellent heat resistance, but requires more care in its use and a longer time to cure than faster-setting epoxies.
For '99 -'03 engines, the installation of a sleeve in the plastic upper will provide the same .076" air gap and heat shield protection, because these engines come stock with a reduced diameter (5/8" OD) stovepipe.
Here are specifications for tubing you can cut and press fit in your shop vise to make your own reduced diameter pipe and sleeve. Lengths are +/- .015".
Specifications: All parts 304 stainless steel
Tube: 5/8" OD, .035" wall, seamless tube 1.420" length
Ring: 3/4" OD, .065" wall, seamless tube 0.375" length
Sleeve: 7/8" OD, .049" wall, welded tube 0.820" length
INSTALLATION PROCEDURE:
Read all instructions before starting to work.
The stock EGR pipe is used to center the sleeve in the upper intake manifold (UIM) and is used to drive the reduced diameter pipe into the lower intake manifold (LIM). The sleeve is glued with the UIM and LIM joined in an upside-down position. The sleeve must be accurately centered to obtain a constant-width air gap around the pipe.
Tools and materials required: 1/2" diameter rat-tail file, or dremel drum sander, or small penknife; six-inch length of 3/4" diameter dowel rod; one sheet of 150 grit sandpaper and flat sanding block; regular (not quik-set) JB weld; carburetor cleaner; rags, latex gloves, masking tape, loctite.
Follow directions in Chilton's 28200 or other guide to remove throttle body from upper intake manifold (UIM); remove UIM from car; wash UIM with solvent or with high pressure washer. Remove lower intake manifold (LIM) from car. DO NOT REMOVE OR DAMAGE STOCK STOVEPIPE; Wash LIM with solvent or with high pressure washer. Clean the stock stovepipe of all carbon and residues, but do not remove it from the LIM. Wipe excess oil from the old UIM gasket and clean with solvent. Carefully clean all oil from the gasket on both sides at the base of the EGR hole using carburetor cleaner and a clean rag.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/2tapepipe.jpg
For '95 -'99, make one wrap of masking tape without overlapping the ends around the stovepipe where the sleeve will fit. For '99 up, make many wraps as neatly as possible. The sleeve should be centered and just slide over the taped pipe with little clearance. If not, add or remove tape until it does.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/6inspectdamage.jpg
Probe the plastic EGR bore of the UIM with a sharp pick or penknife.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/15shapehole.jpg
Scrape and dig out any deteriorated plastic. Enlarge the hole with the round file or other tool so that sleeve is centered but fits tightly in the top of the hole where the EGR tube will enter the air stream. The glue will adhere to the plastic better if the surface is roughened by sanding with a bit of the 150-grit paper wrapped around the dowel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/18alignment.jpg
As you work, periodically check the centering of the sleeve by setting the plenum with the old gasket attached, on the LIM over the stock stovepipe.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/11readyforJB.jpg
When you are certain the sleeve is centered, turn the UIM upside down, remove any dust and clean the hole for the sleeve by spraying it with carburetor cleaner (lacquer thinner).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/9plugholes.jpg
If the EGR bore in the UIM has perforated into the throttle body, install the old TB gasket to contain the adhesive. Align the gasket carefully so you do not create a low spot in the sealing suface. If coolant passages are perforated, use a vinyl hose or better still, a piece of old silicone throttle body gasket to cover the hole. Silicone rubber will not adhere to the JB weld. Jam a popsicle stick or rod behind to hold the hose or temporary mold in place. Clean the sleeve with lacquer thinner and keep oil away from the surfaces where the glue will be applied. Slip a piece of newspaper under the hole to catch any drips of glue.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/7jbweld.jpg
Mix up the JB weld according to directions on the package and first fill any perforations. Then coat the entire inner surface with JB weld and apply a thin layer to fully cover the outside of the sleeve. Take care not to get glue on the inside surface of the sleeve.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/12rollsleeveflush.jpg
With the UIM still upside down, insert the sleeve and using the dowel rod, roll the gasket end of the sleeve flush with the hole.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/17smoothwfinger.jpg
Wipe the excess glue from the top of the sleeve with a latex gloved finger or small curved tool.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/10readyforgasket.jpg
Fill the gap around the sleeve with JB weld, then remove any glue from the contact area between the UIM and the gasket. Wipe a latex gloved finger around the sleeve to create a concave surface to make sure that the gasket will not become glued to the UIM.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/4curingposition.jpg
Carefully remove any glue from the inside of the sleeve. Attach the gasket to the UIM and then install the LIM with the taped original stovepipe upside down through the sleeve. Attach a few upper manifold bolts finger tight to make sure the alignment holds. Allow the glue to set for 4 hours.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/14sealbead.jpg
After the initial set, carefully remove the LIM and gasket from the UIM. If you have to peel the silicone gasket off, clean the UIM surface with a bit of carburetor cleaner to insure a good bond, then apply additional JB weld to the concavity around the outside of the sleeve to build up a wide bead. This bead will be sanded down to form the new sealing surface. Try not to introduce bubbles into the glue that might make pits when sanded down. Keeping the UIM upside down, allow the JB weld to cure overnight.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/21Perfmerge.jpg
When cured, carefully remove any molds or forms for the perforated areas. Carefully inspect these areas to make sure the epoxy completely filled the holes without voids or serious imperfections that might cause a leak.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/13sandedflush.jpg
Using a flat sanding block, carefully sand the JB weld around the sleeve to create a sealing surface that is flat and level with the surrounding coolant bores and adjacent sealing surfaces. Check your progress periodically with a straightedge. If air bubbles in the JB weld formed pits in the sealing surface around the sleeve, fill them with a little RTV silcone rubber when assembling.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/3cleanbore.jpg
Slip a tightly fitting socket into the stock EGR tube to prevent crushing it, and grip with vise grips. Twist and lift out the old pipe. Carefully clean the bore for the EGR tube in the LIM with carburetor cleaner and a small knife, finishing with steel wool, and finally carburetor cleaner. It is important that all carbon be removed from the bore before attempting to drive in the new reduced diameter pipe.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/8pipesleeve.jpg
Apply a little loctite to the outside of the ring on the rd pipe and using the stock EGR pipe as a sleeve, drive in the rd pipe with a rawhide or rubber mallet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/5drivenhome.jpg
Look through the horizontal hole in the LIM to make sure that the pipe is all the way down.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/16shoulderup.jpg
A part of the shoulder will remain above the surface of the LIM. This helps locate the gasket seal around the EGR hole. The shoulder will sit below the surface of the gasket when it is installed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/viewfromtop.jpg
Install the LIM and UIM with new gaskets and using loctite on the bolts. Reassemble the engine.
_____________________________________
Thanks to Ken Spragg for figuring out the concepts for this fix; to Harry (57Chevythunder) for helping with development and fitting tests; to Ranger and to Joe for advice on machining, and to Bob Dillon for thinking of using a 7/8" sleeve.
For those who don't want to do it all themselves, BC member Bob Dillon is installing sleeves in plenums for others. Contact Bob for specifics.
To test this concept, I had to purchase minimum lengths of tubing that left me with extra material. I have cut and assembled the left-over tubing into 5 "kits" of a reduced diameter pipe and sleeve. BC members interested in purchasing a kit for their own use (at their own risk) for $15 can PM me. If there is sufficient demand, I may act as a distributor for cut-to-size tubing and kits for BC members.
*Update* Problem solved, thank you all! edited
Intake plenum is the cause, allowed water to get inside hence the high oil causing hydrolock. Estimated cost of repair including labor is approx $350.00. The motor is fine. You all are great and thanks again. If anything else happens I shall let you all know. :)
just FYI
here is from another post....
Application: 1995 - 2003 Series II normally aspirated (L36) Vin K 3800 V6 engines
A procedure is described for modifying the stovepipe and EGR passage in the plastic upper manifold in '95 - '03 L36 engines. This modification is based on two principles. An air gap is created to reduce heat transfer by conduction between the hot EGR pipe and the plastic bore of the upper intake manifold. And, a heat shield in the form of a stainless steel sleeve is bonded to the plastic bore to reflect radiant heat, and to disperse and conduct absorbed heat, further reducing heat stress on the plastic upper manifold. The work is done in conjunction with changing the lower intake manifold gaskets which commonly deteriorate and fail causing harmful internal coolant leaks. A 180 F thermostat is also recommended to extend the life of the plastic gaskets.
This modification does not require special tools or know-how, but will take time and patience to complete. The installation procedure requires that the upper and lower intake manifold be (reasonably) clean and dry and removed from the car. The JB Weld used to bond the sleeve into the upper manifold will need to cure overnight before it can be placed back into service.
DISCLAIMER: This modification has no long-term testing to prove that it will perform as we hope it will. Any time you modify your engine, you are taking a chance that some unforeseen damage or decrease in performance or reliability may result. If you choose to perform this modification, please understand that you do so at your own risk.
Background: The original EGR passage in a new L36 upper intake manifold (plenum) is just a few thousandths larger than 3/4". From '95 to early '99, GM used a 3/4"OD (outside diameter) stainless steel EGR stovepipe that fit closely to the plastic bore in the upper manifold and carried the hot exhaust gas from the aluminum lower intake manifold into the intake air stream just behind the throttle body. Over time, heat from the EGR pipe deteriorates the plastic walls of nearby coolant passages and sealing surfaces resulting in coolant and vacuum leaks.
In late 1999, GM replaced the lower intake manifold with a new design that reduced the bore and the outside diameter for the EGR stovepipe from 3/4" to 5/8". The upper manifold bore for the pipe was left unchanged at 3/4+". The smaller pipe provided an insulating air gap of about .065" between the hot metal and the plastic in an effort to reduce the heat stress on the upper manifold. The new design may extend the life of the plastic upper, but failures still occur in a similar manner as the previous design.
Ken Spragg (KenCo products) developed a kit to repair a damaged upper manifold and to prevent further damage of the plastic composite due to excess heat. The KenCo kit includes a smaller, 1/2" OD EGR stovepipe with a 3/4" shoulder that fits into the lower intake manifold of engines built between '95 and '99. Also provided is a sleeve with an ID (inside diameter) of 3/4" that is fitted and bonded to the bore of the plastic upper with high temperature, quick set epoxy. Installed as directed, the kit produces an insulating air gap of .125" with the sleeve providing a heat shield to further protect the plastic upper. The components appear to be made from cadmium plated mild steel. The kit sells for $80 mail order which includes shipping in the U.S.
My interest was initially focused on finding a less expensive alternative to the KenCo kit for my '95 Bonneville L36, that used stainless steel like GM, and that did not restrict the EGR passage any more than GM's new 5/8" pipe. The result is a specification for a reduced diameter stovepipe fabricated from "off-the-shelf" 304 stainless steel tubing. A ring of 3/4" OD tubing is pressed onto a 5/8" OD tube the same length as the original pipe. A sleeve for the upper consists of a simple ring of 7/8" OD stainless steel tubing whose length is just sufficient to cover the exposed plastic in the EGR bore when it is enlarged to accept the sleeve. The .777" ID of the sleeve gives an insulating air gap of .076" around the reduced diameter pipe. JB weld is specified to bond the sleeve to the plastic upper. It has excellent heat resistance, but requires more care in its use and a longer time to cure than faster-setting epoxies.
For '99 -'03 engines, the installation of a sleeve in the plastic upper will provide the same .076" air gap and heat shield protection, because these engines come stock with a reduced diameter (5/8" OD) stovepipe.
Here are specifications for tubing you can cut and press fit in your shop vise to make your own reduced diameter pipe and sleeve. Lengths are +/- .015".
Specifications: All parts 304 stainless steel
Tube: 5/8" OD, .035" wall, seamless tube 1.420" length
Ring: 3/4" OD, .065" wall, seamless tube 0.375" length
Sleeve: 7/8" OD, .049" wall, welded tube 0.820" length
INSTALLATION PROCEDURE:
Read all instructions before starting to work.
The stock EGR pipe is used to center the sleeve in the upper intake manifold (UIM) and is used to drive the reduced diameter pipe into the lower intake manifold (LIM). The sleeve is glued with the UIM and LIM joined in an upside-down position. The sleeve must be accurately centered to obtain a constant-width air gap around the pipe.
Tools and materials required: 1/2" diameter rat-tail file, or dremel drum sander, or small penknife; six-inch length of 3/4" diameter dowel rod; one sheet of 150 grit sandpaper and flat sanding block; regular (not quik-set) JB weld; carburetor cleaner; rags, latex gloves, masking tape, loctite.
Follow directions in Chilton's 28200 or other guide to remove throttle body from upper intake manifold (UIM); remove UIM from car; wash UIM with solvent or with high pressure washer. Remove lower intake manifold (LIM) from car. DO NOT REMOVE OR DAMAGE STOCK STOVEPIPE; Wash LIM with solvent or with high pressure washer. Clean the stock stovepipe of all carbon and residues, but do not remove it from the LIM. Wipe excess oil from the old UIM gasket and clean with solvent. Carefully clean all oil from the gasket on both sides at the base of the EGR hole using carburetor cleaner and a clean rag.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/2tapepipe.jpg
For '95 -'99, make one wrap of masking tape without overlapping the ends around the stovepipe where the sleeve will fit. For '99 up, make many wraps as neatly as possible. The sleeve should be centered and just slide over the taped pipe with little clearance. If not, add or remove tape until it does.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/6inspectdamage.jpg
Probe the plastic EGR bore of the UIM with a sharp pick or penknife.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/15shapehole.jpg
Scrape and dig out any deteriorated plastic. Enlarge the hole with the round file or other tool so that sleeve is centered but fits tightly in the top of the hole where the EGR tube will enter the air stream. The glue will adhere to the plastic better if the surface is roughened by sanding with a bit of the 150-grit paper wrapped around the dowel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/18alignment.jpg
As you work, periodically check the centering of the sleeve by setting the plenum with the old gasket attached, on the LIM over the stock stovepipe.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/11readyforJB.jpg
When you are certain the sleeve is centered, turn the UIM upside down, remove any dust and clean the hole for the sleeve by spraying it with carburetor cleaner (lacquer thinner).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/9plugholes.jpg
If the EGR bore in the UIM has perforated into the throttle body, install the old TB gasket to contain the adhesive. Align the gasket carefully so you do not create a low spot in the sealing suface. If coolant passages are perforated, use a vinyl hose or better still, a piece of old silicone throttle body gasket to cover the hole. Silicone rubber will not adhere to the JB weld. Jam a popsicle stick or rod behind to hold the hose or temporary mold in place. Clean the sleeve with lacquer thinner and keep oil away from the surfaces where the glue will be applied. Slip a piece of newspaper under the hole to catch any drips of glue.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/7jbweld.jpg
Mix up the JB weld according to directions on the package and first fill any perforations. Then coat the entire inner surface with JB weld and apply a thin layer to fully cover the outside of the sleeve. Take care not to get glue on the inside surface of the sleeve.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/12rollsleeveflush.jpg
With the UIM still upside down, insert the sleeve and using the dowel rod, roll the gasket end of the sleeve flush with the hole.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/17smoothwfinger.jpg
Wipe the excess glue from the top of the sleeve with a latex gloved finger or small curved tool.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/10readyforgasket.jpg
Fill the gap around the sleeve with JB weld, then remove any glue from the contact area between the UIM and the gasket. Wipe a latex gloved finger around the sleeve to create a concave surface to make sure that the gasket will not become glued to the UIM.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/4curingposition.jpg
Carefully remove any glue from the inside of the sleeve. Attach the gasket to the UIM and then install the LIM with the taped original stovepipe upside down through the sleeve. Attach a few upper manifold bolts finger tight to make sure the alignment holds. Allow the glue to set for 4 hours.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/14sealbead.jpg
After the initial set, carefully remove the LIM and gasket from the UIM. If you have to peel the silicone gasket off, clean the UIM surface with a bit of carburetor cleaner to insure a good bond, then apply additional JB weld to the concavity around the outside of the sleeve to build up a wide bead. This bead will be sanded down to form the new sealing surface. Try not to introduce bubbles into the glue that might make pits when sanded down. Keeping the UIM upside down, allow the JB weld to cure overnight.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/21Perfmerge.jpg
When cured, carefully remove any molds or forms for the perforated areas. Carefully inspect these areas to make sure the epoxy completely filled the holes without voids or serious imperfections that might cause a leak.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/13sandedflush.jpg
Using a flat sanding block, carefully sand the JB weld around the sleeve to create a sealing surface that is flat and level with the surrounding coolant bores and adjacent sealing surfaces. Check your progress periodically with a straightedge. If air bubbles in the JB weld formed pits in the sealing surface around the sleeve, fill them with a little RTV silcone rubber when assembling.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/3cleanbore.jpg
Slip a tightly fitting socket into the stock EGR tube to prevent crushing it, and grip with vise grips. Twist and lift out the old pipe. Carefully clean the bore for the EGR tube in the LIM with carburetor cleaner and a small knife, finishing with steel wool, and finally carburetor cleaner. It is important that all carbon be removed from the bore before attempting to drive in the new reduced diameter pipe.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/8pipesleeve.jpg
Apply a little loctite to the outside of the ring on the rd pipe and using the stock EGR pipe as a sleeve, drive in the rd pipe with a rawhide or rubber mallet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/5drivenhome.jpg
Look through the horizontal hole in the LIM to make sure that the pipe is all the way down.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/16shoulderup.jpg
A part of the shoulder will remain above the surface of the LIM. This helps locate the gasket seal around the EGR hole. The shoulder will sit below the surface of the gasket when it is installed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/rd%20pipe/viewfromtop.jpg
Install the LIM and UIM with new gaskets and using loctite on the bolts. Reassemble the engine.
_____________________________________
Thanks to Ken Spragg for figuring out the concepts for this fix; to Harry (57Chevythunder) for helping with development and fitting tests; to Ranger and to Joe for advice on machining, and to Bob Dillon for thinking of using a 7/8" sleeve.
For those who don't want to do it all themselves, BC member Bob Dillon is installing sleeves in plenums for others. Contact Bob for specifics.
To test this concept, I had to purchase minimum lengths of tubing that left me with extra material. I have cut and assembled the left-over tubing into 5 "kits" of a reduced diameter pipe and sleeve. BC members interested in purchasing a kit for their own use (at their own risk) for $15 can PM me. If there is sufficient demand, I may act as a distributor for cut-to-size tubing and kits for BC members.
muledriver
08-18-2005, 02:24 PM
First, thank you all for the information, second, sadly, I have a Buick L36 engine contained in a 1998 Lumina LTZ vin K. I also feel that my local dealers shop borders on criminal. So much for feelings.
This info will help tremendously in my current project of rehabilitating this car ( my wife's daily driver ) which has not been driven, except into the garage for the past 3+ weeks.......things are getting a little tense around here.
It has 72,000 on it, she had called me from her office, said her low coolant light had come on. I went down & added a quart of H2O to the overflow, started & warmed it. Every thing OK. Left for 3 day trip, get call 2nd night at motel, light came back on & she took it to dealer and was given the following assessment :
leaks aren't bad - need to be fixed
2 minor leaks
waterpump could go anytime
lower intake gasket just starting to leak
level sensor bad = $210
waterpump = $300
lower intake = warp = $1000 not warped = $650
When I picked up the car I figured I would pay for the diagnosis ( bad news ), but, there was no charge or paper work. Obviously the dealer is covering GM's lack of responsibility for poorly engineered components and protecting their interests.
Let's see , car value = $3000 - $1600 m/l if fixed at dealer = park it & I'll fix it.
From what I've read on this subject, here & elsewhere, it seems that I shouldn't have to pull the lower intake manifold at all, but only repair or replace the upper intake manifold, which brings me to the following questions on the options of repair. ( before I rip it apart )
GM# 24508923 lower intake = $224 +/-
GM# 12537197 lower intake gasket = $24 +/-
Fel Pro# MS 95809-1 = $40 +/-
Utilize the GM redesigned ( May 2004 ) upper intake manifold and gasket kits ;
GM# 89017272 upper intake manifold kit includes: upper intake manifold & throttle body mounting studs = $104 +/- ( this supercedes GM# 17113136 = $
GM# 89017554 upper intake gasket kit includes: upper to lower intake manifold gasket, throttle body gasket and PCV draft tube = $28 +/-
GM# 89017274 PCV kit includes: PCV valve, PCV valve cover, O-ring seals and PCV spring = $15 +/-
or
Dorman / OE solutions upper intake manifold # 615-180 = $130 +/-
Fel Pro # MS95812 plenum gasket set = $38 +/-
or
The repair in the above thread. Got any more of the repair kits left? What gaskets did you use for assembly after th EGR tube repair?
This site lists a repair kit, but no retail sales, anyone know where to buy this kit retail? http://www.fmsiinc.com/manifold/default.htm
Thanks again,
Rick R.
This info will help tremendously in my current project of rehabilitating this car ( my wife's daily driver ) which has not been driven, except into the garage for the past 3+ weeks.......things are getting a little tense around here.
It has 72,000 on it, she had called me from her office, said her low coolant light had come on. I went down & added a quart of H2O to the overflow, started & warmed it. Every thing OK. Left for 3 day trip, get call 2nd night at motel, light came back on & she took it to dealer and was given the following assessment :
leaks aren't bad - need to be fixed
2 minor leaks
waterpump could go anytime
lower intake gasket just starting to leak
level sensor bad = $210
waterpump = $300
lower intake = warp = $1000 not warped = $650
When I picked up the car I figured I would pay for the diagnosis ( bad news ), but, there was no charge or paper work. Obviously the dealer is covering GM's lack of responsibility for poorly engineered components and protecting their interests.
Let's see , car value = $3000 - $1600 m/l if fixed at dealer = park it & I'll fix it.
From what I've read on this subject, here & elsewhere, it seems that I shouldn't have to pull the lower intake manifold at all, but only repair or replace the upper intake manifold, which brings me to the following questions on the options of repair. ( before I rip it apart )
GM# 24508923 lower intake = $224 +/-
GM# 12537197 lower intake gasket = $24 +/-
Fel Pro# MS 95809-1 = $40 +/-
Utilize the GM redesigned ( May 2004 ) upper intake manifold and gasket kits ;
GM# 89017272 upper intake manifold kit includes: upper intake manifold & throttle body mounting studs = $104 +/- ( this supercedes GM# 17113136 = $
GM# 89017554 upper intake gasket kit includes: upper to lower intake manifold gasket, throttle body gasket and PCV draft tube = $28 +/-
GM# 89017274 PCV kit includes: PCV valve, PCV valve cover, O-ring seals and PCV spring = $15 +/-
or
Dorman / OE solutions upper intake manifold # 615-180 = $130 +/-
Fel Pro # MS95812 plenum gasket set = $38 +/-
or
The repair in the above thread. Got any more of the repair kits left? What gaskets did you use for assembly after th EGR tube repair?
This site lists a repair kit, but no retail sales, anyone know where to buy this kit retail? http://www.fmsiinc.com/manifold/default.htm
Thanks again,
Rick R.
Automotive Network, Inc., Copyright ©2025