Chem/Pyrotechnic experts.

Well most everybody knows what thermite is and what it can do and how to make it. If you dont, dont worry about it because you wont know what you are doing and you will be playing with fire (literally) and when you play with fire you will get burnt (literally and by the opo's if you use it incorrectly)
Anyway. As a chem experament i am making some thermite to see how many cynderblocks i can burn through :lol2: . However, Fe(II)O is easy to come by but pure aluminum powder is not. I am trying to make the best damn thermite i can. The chem lab at my school only has aluminum oxide powder. i dont feel like buying a bar of pure aluminum then grinding it down to a fine powder, ive gone through enough trouble to make 64g of Fe(II)O as pure as i possibly can with the supplies i have. So i am wondering, is there another metal in the same family as aluminum that i can use that will yeild the same or similar results. I mean from what i can gather it is either a simple single displacmeent or redox reaction that realeases a but load of energy. ive taken a gander at my periodic table and have founda metal i mat be able to use, gallium, however i have no idea where to get this shit and its low melting temp would make it a poor canidate. all of the metals in IIIB are also hard to come by...so now im back to aluminum, but other metals you can think of that will work just as well that are easier to come by would be much appreciated.
Now, i had another idea. i can get pure magnesium pebbles. would it help any to make it burn more thuroghly to mik these in or even grind them down to powerder and mix them into the thermite? last run of thermite i was involved in the limiting reactant was Iron Oxide and one that shit ignited it ignited and a good portion of it was never burned, so mixing in magnesium should help i beleive, but some positive feedback would be nice.
thanks for all your help, i hope i can burn through at least 3 cement blocks.

you are asking for trouble...........

well its for school, sort of...my chem teacher is kool...she let us throw a penny in nitric acid...outside...

Dude, you need to get a professional opinion on this, from a Chemistry MS or PhD. I've been through a solid 3 years of College chem, and couldn't answer that with any certainty. I could only give you an educated guess, but considering that thermite can be expolsive and involves very high temperatures, you need to know for sure. Automotiveforums.com = not necessarily a hotbed of professional chemistry knowledge.

I thought one key part of thermite was aluminum...its kind of like making milk with apples, it just doesnt work.

Never done it, but
Get an aluminum bar and run it on a belt sander till you get the amount you need,
And you will need a magnesium strip to light it,
I thought one key part of thermite was aluminum...its kind of like making milk with apples, it just doesnt work.
Yup, Yup

There was once an article in Popular Science I believe on how to make thermite. Check the website archives and see if anything turns up.

Well most everybody knows what thermite is and what it can do and how to make it. If you dont, dont worry about it because you wont know what you are doing and you will be playing with fire (literally) and when you play with fire you will get burnt (literally and by the opo's if you use it incorrectly)
Anyway. As a chem experament i am making some thermite to see how many cynderblocks i can burn through :lol2: . However, Fe(II)O is easy to come by but pure aluminum powder is not. I am trying to make the best damn thermite i can. The chem lab at my school only has aluminum oxide powder. i dont feel like buying a bar of pure aluminum then grinding it down to a fine powder, ive gone through enough trouble to make 64g of Fe(II)O as pure as i possibly can with the supplies i have. So i am wondering, is there another metal in the same family as aluminum that i can use that will yeild the same or similar results. I mean from what i can gather it is either a simple single displacmeent or redox reaction that realeases a but load of energy. ive taken a gander at my periodic table and have founda metal i mat be able to use, gallium, however i have no idea where to get this shit and its low melting temp would make it a poor canidate. all of the metals in IIIB are also hard to come by...so now im back to aluminum, but other metals you can think of that will work just as well that are easier to come by would be much appreciated.
Now, i had another idea. i can get pure magnesium pebbles. would it help any to make it burn more thuroghly to mik these in or even grind them down to powerder and mix them into the thermite? last run of thermite i was involved in the limiting reactant was Iron Oxide and one that shit ignited it ignited and a good portion of it was never burned, so mixing in magnesium should help i beleive, but some positive feedback would be nice.
thanks for all your help, i hope i can burn through at least 3 cement blocks.

It seems to me that gallium won't work too well. the melting point of it is VERY low (like 85 F --a little warmer than room temp).can't say about magnesium.

If you really wanna do this (make a video for everyone at AF), just grind out the aluminium. The Iron was hard to grind b/c iron is a very hard material (much harder than steel) and most grinders are made out of iron. Alumnium will grind VERY easily with an iron grinder (even by hand). if you have a block of it, i can't imagine it taking more than 15 min to grind up 65g of it...
BTW, if you don't know if it is a redox or single disp. rxn, maybe u shouldn't be trying this. then again, i've done way dumber-er-er stuff. <--- experience 4 yrs chem

I thought one key part of thermite was aluminum...its kind of like making milk with apples, it just doesnt work.

i'm sorry i have ot mention this, but my roommate's favorite drink is apples, milk, sugar, and cinnamon blended together. i tried it once and i almost threw up.

but, i agree, i don't think u can mix the metals like that.

Man....you're nuts for one....and I agree with the others. Just grind up some aluminium. Probably the easiest way to do it.
Just a question why are you making Thermite anyway.

I got in serious shit just form the local council for making the organic version of dynamite (nitro-pill fertiliser mixed with diesel in equal parts) to remove tree stumps from my mates property.
Later, WIDE.

Finer grind = better burning. :bigthumb:

just buy a block of aluminum (i know you dont want to) then just shove it against a grinding wheel with a kind shield to collect the "dust" oh and wear goggles, ha ha making explosives, i spend chemistry leson (just had my last EVER today) buring things....

Well for thoes that dont know, gallium has similar chemical properties to Aluminum. however, like what was stated, it has a very low melting point. I found some help, so no worries. and i located some aluminum powder. Thermite isnt nessicarily na explosive (though it can be used as one) and i am not interested in making an explosion.

It seems to me that gallium won't work too well. the melting point of it is VERY low (like 85 F --a little warmer than room temp).can't say about magnesium.

The Iron was hard to grind b/c iron is a very hard material (much harder than steel)

Iron is not harder than steel, Steel is mostly iron and depending on the type, usually a fraction of to about 7% carbon. Steel hardness and strength varies depending on Carbon, Chromium, Nickel, and other various metals content.

But as far as I know, Steel is not softer than Iron especially if it is tempered steel.

I thought Iron was Purified to form steel, because steel was stronger......

I thought Iron was Purified to form steel, because steel was stronger......

Nope, here's a relatively complicated explanation, all I looked at last semester.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/305FeC.JPG

Iron is not harder than steel, Steel is mostly iron and depending on the type, usually a fraction of to about 7% carbon. Steel hardness and strength varies depending on Carbon, Chromium, Nickel, and other various metals content.

But as far as I know, Steel is not softer than Iron especially if it is tempered steel.

don't mean to be an ass about it, but you are wrong. The hardest iron is harder than steel.

http://www.zianet.com/ebear/metal/hardness.html

That is why metal files are made of iron and can file down steel/aluminum. If steel was harder than iron, then iron file would be filed away.

And thanks, I know that steel is made of iron (in case you were implying that i didn't know). I never mentioned that iron is stronger that steel or that steel doesn't have other desirable properties.

don't mean to be an ass about it, but you are wrong. The hardest iron is harder than steel.

1:Sorry, and I don't mean to be an ass about it either, but you're wrong. The hardest kind of iron is tool steel, which has a higher carbon content than any form of iron. Not to mention that tool steel is also hardened and tempered. I'm a machinist with a lot of experience with steel, so don't try to argue the facts with me because I've been there, done that and know what I'm talking about. Talk to a welder or machinist that has worked with iron and different types of steel and they'll set you straight.

CBFryman: You and your teacher are both idiots for trying to make something so volatile.

^^ your comment is ignorant...one, ive already said that she "knows nothing about it" and 2 if you know what you are doing and you arent a dumbass about it, it isnt volitile. From what i understand and from the help a particular someone gave me it was used to weld railroad ties togather but since the invention of the arc and MIG welder it is not useless. if you want volitile and stupid...go play with Zinc Iodine Bombs... as for my teacher being stupid...she is qualitifed to be a colledge proffessor but because she has been in the school system for so long she is actually making more money than starting out as a college professor...she is a VERY intellegent woman and probably one of the best teaches i have ever and will ever have.

CBFryman: You and your teacher are both idiots for trying to make something so volatile.

CB Fryman is right,
vol·a·tile adj.
Chemistry.
a. Evaporating readily at normal temperatures and pressures.
b. That can be readily vaporized.

Thermite takes enormous amounts of heat to light, much hotter than a blowtorch, Its not like its nitro glycerine, a combustible gas, or pure sodium, which are all much more dangerous to deal with, the truth is dry ice is more dangerous,

Again true, Thermite was used to weld railroad ties together, and was safely transported and contained which made it ideal,
The only danger associated with thermite is the extremly high burning tempertures, so be careful and have yourself a safe place to do it with sand and a hose incase you do have an unforseen problem,

CBFryman has done his research (even here), so go do some of your own then contradict him, or argue over which is harder some more

don't mean to be an ass about it, but you are wrong. The hardest iron is harder than steel.

http://www.zianet.com/ebear/metal/hardness.html

That is why metal files are made of iron and can file down steel/aluminum. If steel was harder than iron, then iron file would be filed away.

And thanks, I know that steel is made of iron (in case you were implying that i didn't know). I never mentioned that iron is stronger that steel or that steel doesn't have other desirable properties.
No offense taken, my knowledge is limited to Second Year Univeristy courses, which is by no means an authoritative soruce.

However, in that link you provided, it clearly states in all cases that hardened steel is the hardest metal, by 22 on the Brinell test!

I only stated where steel comes due to the fact that it was the basis for ilustrating my point and, helpful to others that may not have understood where I was coming from.

In response to the bit about steel being stronger than Iron, I also didn't say anything about strength comparisons, so I'm not sure where that came from.

it was used to weld railroad ties

Do you have any railroad ties to weld? You say your teacher "knows nothing about it" and all of a sudden you're qualified to create and use such a substance? I'm not arguing your professor's qualifications, I'm sure they are there. I'm saying that you probably shouldn't fuck around with something that has serious risk associated with it, especially when your knowledge is practically nothing in terms of the qualifications required for handling and using such a substance.

That's all I'm going to say in this thread, we have people who know what they're talking about, and arguing is pointless.

1:Sorry, and I don't mean to be an ass about it either, but you're wrong. The hardest kind of iron is tool steel, which has a higher carbon content than any form of iron. Not to mention that tool steel is also hardened and tempered. I'm a machinist with a lot of experience with steel, so don't try to argue the facts with me because I've been there, done that and know what I'm talking about. Talk to a welder or machinist that has worked with iron and different types of steel and they'll set you straight.



i worked as a mechanical engineering last summer, and i asked my boss, a mechanical engineer with 10 yrs experience. so please, explain to me why metal files are made of iron and not steel?

No offense taken, my knowledge is limited to Second Year Univeristy courses, which is by no means an authoritative soruce.

However, in that link you provided, it clearly states in all cases that hardened steel is the hardest metal, by 22 on the Brinell test!



well, shit, i totally didn't even see that. well, i suppose that it has to do with the type of iron and type of steel being compared. i'm still sticking by original point that iron is harder than steel just b/c of the fact that files are made of iron.

i will email my old boss (mechanical engineer) and ask him about it to make sure and i'll post what he says, even if it makes me look like a douche :icon16:

peace

I'm waiting for the news story ... "Student Blows up Half the School Under Supervision of Chem Lab Teacher !!"

anyone who thinks thermite explods is a complete dumbfuck, im sorry to say it. Yes, it can be used in a bomb when prepared in such a way to make it a bomb, i am no preparing it in such a way as to make it a bomb. Yet even still it isnt like a giant explosion, im not making massive quantities, im not doing it at school, i am doing it in my back yard which is over one acre and there is plenty of sand and water handy to contain the heat being released and water to extinguishing it by seperating the two reactants.

What male here hasnt played with fire, especially as a teenager. But when you where burning gasoline with the can 5yds away or making a flame thrower out of an aresol can or fitrin potatos out of a PVC pipe using hairspray as an accelerant you where putting your self in far more danger than burning a small ammount of thermite in a controlled environment. as stated by mysatilac thermite is NOT volitile. it takes the heat of a burning magnesium ribbon to ignite it. even magnesium is not easily ignited, you can put a match to magnesium all day and it wont ignite. It isnt like if some how i droped some thermite in the camp fire it would ignite, because it would have to be a damn hot camp fire.

Agian, the thermite i am making DOES NOT EXPLODE. before you make a comment about me blowing something up read the ENTIRE first post. i am planning on melting through a few sheets of steel and a couple cement bricks. in other words, i am making the form of thermite that burns, as it burns molten iron and aluminum slage (aluminum oxide) are formed, molten iron is, of course, very hot, this melts whatever it is sitting on... it does NOT explode.

I agree with every word,

Check out these two sites for your hardness debate, although its off topic for this thread
http://www.matweb.com/search/searchproperty.asp

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/sep2000/969070910.Ph.r.html
"Every day engineers are working on ways to make metals harder, stronger or lighter - the information is always changing."