4-2-1 or 4-1 header? any difference in HP?

Hello everyone its me agian! Now im at the last stages of my motor tuning... I was thinking about headers. Some people say the 4-2-1 helps out and some say the 4-1 headers help out. I read a few post in the www.dsmtuners.com but it is 50/50. So i want to know which is better for the money. So Basically which design will a N/T benifit most from a 4-2-1 or 4-1 header?

BTW im looking to buy the DC Sports 4-2-1 ceramic header. Is that better for more money or a 4-1 header???

I bought some 4-1 header. I wanted a 4-2-1, but almost all are NOT LEGAL. I would imagine alittle better perf in the 4-2-1. I havent installed mine yet, so I dont even know how much i got there.

4-2-1 is better for low end power, 4-1 is better for top end. Depends what you want out of your car.

4-2-1 is better for low end power, 4-1 is better for top end. Depends what you want out of your car.


Hmmm. Ic so tell me this... when your street racing would you depend more on your torque or high end power??? Man thats so hard to figure out. I know i am going to buy my headers but its just the fact of which one? hmm.. any more input?

if you're car is an auto i would for sure go with the 4-2-1 because the auto's are shit off the line, if it's a manual it depends on what you want it for. if you can get off the line good then i would go with the 4-1 but if you have trouble down low, go with the 4-2-1

if you're car is an auto i would for sure go with the 4-2-1 because the auto's are shit off the line, if it's a manual it depends on what you want it for. if you can get off the line good then i would go with the 4-1 but if you have trouble down low, go with the 4-2-1


My cars a manual.... So i dont think i have a problem shifting on the right time because when i do shift in a rave i just listin to my engine and ill know when to shift. So better off which one does it comes down to... 4-2-1 or 4-1??? I want more torque and HP so does that explain much Lol.

BTW is this how it works...

4-2-1 = more torque on take off
4-1 = less torque but more high end power


?

4-2-1 makes tourqe beacause it has more rescrition, Which makes you exhust velocity is lower(not back pressure).

ok typically you want a high torque car if your doing track style racing. youll spend alot of time in the lower end of ure power band(2-4k) and youll want to push it out...but if ure going to be drag racing typically you want more HP and you use it mostly in the higher end of your RPM's( 4.5-6k)but if u own a manual you dont get the choice of using your top end which is why he suggested it.

your only talking about 3-6hp and 2-5ft/lbs torque. So it not really that big of a deal. Youll get more hp out of an exhaust or with an intake manifold. if i were you i would save up and and invest in a turbo kit, youll gaine more hp than you would with 2k in aftermarket bolt-ons.

Check this site out, it will be worth the visit

http://www.hahnracecraft.com/auto/eclipse/eclipse.htm

well... turbo kit is down the line later LOL. but as of now im going for all motor first... so i can get the Guts of the car ready to run a big turbo. Like EVOclipse 4-2-1 im guessing if a raced a guy on the streets... ill take him off the line but after that maybe he'll catch up?? So im guessing i should get the 4-1 headers? Even tho 2-3hp isn't much its more HP right? Also in the next few weeks im going to port out my intakemanifold and bore my throttle to 60mm so that should help out??

do anyway know why one give betta top end vs the other or its just a bunch of yapping here.

do anyway know why one give betta top end vs the other or its just a bunch of yapping here.


haha So far jsut alot of yapping Lol. But yeah which to you perfer if you was in my position and have a manual N/T.

would you go with:

4-2-1 header > advantage of more torque off the line...
or
4-1 header > advantage of High end HP when you street race...

Well im not going to drag my car... i dont know but all i know is that im going to street race.

Well if you are going to street race, why not go with the 4-1 header? Your not going to be racing in the low end rpms. Your not really going to be dropping your 0-60 time, try to improve your 0-100 time or 5k-7k+ hp/tq

edit-
or save for a turbo kit.

so far I have a turbo, O2 housing, Possible $110 manifold(in a week) (know where to look), ic pipes and lines for under $350. Almost thru. Money doesnt come fast enough.

Haha my money dont come fast also man. But yeah i think im going to get a 4-1 header. But man the 4-2-1 does sound good too tho =\

isnt there alot of fabrication with turboing a gs or rs cause im thinking of doin that myself. but dont i have to change to lower compression pistons and such.

isnt there alot of fabrication with turboing a gs or rs cause im thinking of doin that myself. but dont i have to change to lower compression pistons and such.


Well fabrication... yes a little bit hard and thats if you don't know what your doing. But you can buy yourself a turbo kit from hahns racecraft or star. But its better off buying the parts 1 at a time because that will save you alot of money. You can make yourself a good turbo kit for under $1000. if you wanted to. But as of right now im going all motor first.

anyway If I was to get a header it would 4-2-1
the design draws the gas out of the motor better.
my 2 cents

Buying the header if you plan on putting a turbo on later is a waste. You'll have to get rid of the header for the turbo.

i can always sell the headers. =)

hey hellah....does that 54mm throttle body make any difference performance wise?

hey hellah....does that 54mm throttle body make any difference performance wise?

Yes it does help out a bit. It helps out on the mid-hi range rpm. I can feel a little pull. When i take off my car pulls a little but after it hits the 5-6k rpm you can really feel it. Also what i heard that helps and get high gains was the 60mm throttle by www.modernperformence.com But yes that 54mm helps. I got mine done from ebay for $40 dollars. You have take your old one out and send it in to them go get it bore out. The ebay id was conceptillusions. They did the work for me and also free powder coat form 6 different colors to choose from. But about that modern performence throttle... i heard alot of great reviews in dsmtuners.com. Everyone that bought the throttle said it pulls and it cost around $220 and for a better gain bore out your intake manifold to match the 60mm.

its http://www.modernperformance.com/

Next on mod list.......after the turbo of course.

ok i have raced a manual GS eclipse... this is the rundown... my car... 1998 chrysler cirrus LXi V-6 auto... the power of my car is that i got aprox 180 horses now... so about 150ish to the wheels threw the tranny... ok but the power of my car is the first gear... (this little intro is leading up to something) it can beat any car off the line... and slam ur bawlz to the seat... now... i raced that eclipse with 140 HP and maby 120 to the wheels... and about 400 pounds less... now... i owned this eclipse off the line because of my great first gear but past that it sucks... he slowly gained on me and i lost the race because yalls car has much better top end... ANYWAY... go with the low end torque and u will win more races... if u stay in the right power bands... u will kill everything... also check were ur car makes the most HP/torque... when ur launching... shift from first and the highest torque... when u shift to 3rd go for somewere right in the middle and when u hit 4th-5th go for ur highest HP! will get the cleanest most powerful launch and will increase ur get up and go buy a ton... remember after that max HP/torque... ur loosing the power band :) GO FOR MORE TORQUE!

Soo 4-2-1 right? because all the cars i seen... all the websites like nopi.com and summit racing all i see are 4-2-1 headers. So im guessing the 4-2-1 will help out on torque so yeah thats my final choice. How did that Gs creep up on you? you know what mods he have? so mid shift on 3rd like around 5-6k? Well heres my setup ill give you the run down: 2 piece C.I.A. ebay, 2.25 piping, 5" 2.25 muffler, no catalytic converter just a 2.25 resinatior to take its place, 54mm throttle, F & R strut, R lower tie rod all Megan. So sound good so far?? ao all i need now is my Headers and sway bars and im done with stage 1.

he slowly gained on me and i lost the race because yalls car has much better top end
which is why I suggested a 4-1. The eclipse is going to suck of the line if its not a gst or gsx. Mainly a gsx. I had both a 4-2-1 and 4-1 and it still sucks off the line.

The realist quote from the movie was ....."it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning.."

When racing, you are gonna be at full throttle most of the time. And I hope you don't race between 1k and 4k rpms...
Since you are street racing (or are you really drag racing?) your car is going to be always moving.....so when you recover off the line, torque is really not that big of deal. (it is, but not really) Hp is. Now dragging is a different story.

edit>
I say this because my friend has a sunfire gt that pulls away from me off the line like i'm walkilng. But as said I always get him in the strecth.

which is why I suggested a 4-1. The eclipse is going to suck of the line if its not a gst or gsx. Mainly a gsx. I had both a 4-2-1 and 4-1 and it still sucks off the line.

The realist quote from the movie was ....."it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning.."

When racing, you are gonna be at full throttle most of the time. And I hope you don't race between 1k and 4k rpms...
Since you are street racing (or are you really drag racing?) your car is going to be always moving.....so when you recover off the line, torque is really not that big of deal. (it is, but not really) Hp is. Now dragging is a different story.

edit>
I say this because my friend has a sunfire gt that pulls away from me off the line like i'm walkilng. But as said I always get him in the strecth.


How could you quote such a shitty movie? :/

Torque is a pretty big deal actually. I raced an Integra with header and exhaust, which gives him about 10 more hp and maybe 5 more lb ft of torque. So he has 10 hp over me, but Honda/Acura motors suck so bad in the torque department that I beat him by a couple of cars. Torque is a not a nonfactor.

intergras are lighter also. And yes that was a qoute was from the movie, but it applies to everything.

and like i said if you a grandma and race between 1-4k rpms THEN YOU NEED TORQUE!!

put like this.

peak torque at a higher rpm will give you more horse power. your car moving is horsepower. Your engine can make torque in netural.

intergras are lighter also. And yes that was a qoute was from the movie, but it applies to everything.

and like i said if you a grandma and race between 1-4k rpms THEN YOU NEED TORQUE!!

Well a lot of times what happens when I end up racing someone is when you are rolling at like 30-40 mph and then take off, you need that torque to get you to the higher rpms. Racing is not always off the line. Go with the 4-2-1 and disregard anyone saying that you shouldn't worry about torque. Torque and hp are nearly equally important, with a slight edge to hp on our cars. Always strive for more hp, but when you can pick up the torque, don't hesitate. Just look at any of the old muscle cars, a good majority of them have more torque than hp, and they are fast as hell. Just need a few more gears....

Yes it does help out a bit. It helps out on the mid-hi range rpm. I can feel a little pull. When i take off my car pulls a little but after it hits the 5-6k rpm you can really feel it. Also what i heard that helps and get high gains was the 60mm throttle by www.modernperformence.com But yes that 54mm helps. I got mine done from ebay for $40 dollars. You have take your old one out and send it in to them go get it bore out. The ebay id was conceptillusions. They did the work for me and also free powder coat form 6 different colors to choose from. But about that modern performence throttle... i heard alot of great reviews in dsmtuners.com. Everyone that bought the throttle said it pulls and it cost around $220 and for a better gain bore out your intake manifold to match the 60mm.

yeah....the reason I asked is because my head is ported and polished along with the intake and exhaust manifolds being gasket matched and ported to the same port size of the head. if i got a bigger throttle body, it should drastically improve airflow.

I just thought I would copy and paste this. It depends on what you want. Lower or higher tq.

Alright, enough BS, time to get into it. :smile: You guys that answered chose the wrong car. But you thought about it, and gave a reason, and thats all that maters :)

In my example above the car that makes the torque at 6k rpm will beat the car that makes tq at the 3k rpm. Here is why. As I said above it is HP, not torque, that moves you down the track in a given period of time. Torque is a static force, and HP is that torque appied over time and distance. You need time to be moving. MILES per HOUR, METERS per SECOND, etc. Distance and time.

Lets take a look at the formula for HP.

Torque x RPM
------------- = HP
5252

That 5252 is the constant used in the equation, and I could go on for a good bit about where it came from. But its not necessary. Ashah000, chances are when your physics class discusses HP, you may go over where that number comes from.

Using that example, lets firgure out the HP for the 2 cars that I used in my above example. We will use 300 ft-lbs for the example, but you can pick any number and run the math for yourself and see what happens. We will also assume that they both have the same torque curve.

Car #1 makes peak torque at 3k rpm. So 300 times 3000, divided by 5252. It makes 171 HP.

Car #2 makes peak torque at 6k rpm. So 300 times 6000, divided by 5252. It makes 342 HP.

See what happens? Double the rpm, double the HP. Since HP is what moves you down the track, the car that goes to 6k rpm will beat the car that only goes to 3k rpm. The higher the rpm you can make a given torque, the higher your HP will be. Imagine if we could have a flat torque curve of 300 ftlbs from 0 to 15000 rpm. We would have 856 HP, and could probably finish the quarter mile without ever shifting :lol:

Now why couldnt we just up the torque on the 3k car to equal the 342 HP of the 6k car? Well you could. But you would still have to gear it up in order to get to the same speeds as the 6k car. Which brings me to my next point. Gearing

The car will accelerate the hardest at the peak of the torque curve. That is what you will feel from in the car. You cant measure or feel HP, only torque. Both cars making the 300 ftlbs will "feel" the same to the passengers. (The car making 856 HP at 15000 rpm wont feel any faster than the other two examples) If the car accelerates hardest at its peak torque, in what gear will it accelerate the hardest? The one that has the most torque AT THE WHEELS. ;) First gear. So we will say that the car will accelerate hardest at the peak WHEEL torque. And we can all agree that gearing will determine wheel torque. That being said, lets look at out two examples again. Both cars come off the line. The 3k car is pulling hard at its peak torque while the 6k car is still coming up to its peak torque. But then what happens! The 3k car has to shift into second, while the 6k car is making the same peak torque, but with the wheel torque of first gear. The 3k car is in second with less wheel torque, so the 6k car starts to pull away. This repeats itself gear after gear. If you havent figured it out yet, the key to all this is torque mulitplication. Gear reduction. ;) The 3k rpm car may get to its torque peak earlier, but it also has to shift earlier, to a gear that will put it at a wheel torque dissadvantage to the 6k rpm car. This is the key guys.

So now not only is the 6k car making more HP, but its spending more time in the lower gears making more wheel torque, accelerating the car harder for a larger period of time. This is the key poeple. Torque is a good thing, but it is better to make that torque at higher rpm so you can take advantage of lower gearing for a greater length of time. And force applied (wheel torque) over time/distance equals your results on the track.

To finish our examples of the 2 cars, lets use the calc at www.dsm.org (http://www.dsm.org/) to see what each one would run in the quarter. The trap speeds are VERY accurate on this calc based on my own experience with many cars. The ET is only accurate with very good traction, so assume AWD if you want to go by the ETs. So if you enter your timeslip into that calc, the nember given for "speed method" is most accurate. I only pay attention to the trap speed results. I will use the numbers we came up with above as wheel HP (what this calc and all other gives you) to avoid getting into a debate about what our drivetrain loss is ;)

The 3k rpm car with 171 WHP will run 15.5 at 88 mph. And 88 mph is about what stock DSMs do with 170 wheel HP. Pretty accurate. Though an AWD will do better than a 15.5 ;)

The 6k rpm car with the same torque but 342 WHP will run 12.4 at 110 mph. Thats a 22 MPH improvement! So you can see how extreme this example was ;) And again, an AWD DSM driven perfectly will trap about 12.1-12.2 at that 110 mph. And this is what you would expect to run at this power level in a DSM.

Our fantasy 15000 rpm car (856 hp) would trap about 150 mph, all with 300 ft/lbs of torque. :icon16:

So to get back to the real world where tq peaks are fairly close to each other, all cars are geared appropriately, etc, making the same torque at higher rpm gives you the advantage. This is why the 9 second DSMs all shift at 10k rpm. Every part of the car is chosen for its ability to move the torque curve higher in the rpm range. Intake manifolds with short runners, big cams, etc. They start making power late in the rpm range, and they have no trouble getting the car off the line with no low end torque. Look at Curt Brown and John Shepperd, pulling 1.2-1.3 60 foot times if you dont believe me. Look at those nasty rotary motors that have to idle at 4k rpm and dont start to make power until 6k and up. They pull equally fast 60 foots. It may not be fun to drive on the street, but you can always get the car off the line. Launch rpm, flywheel weights, etc, can be adjusted. How is it that these tiny little 4 bangers with hardly any torque are running 7s and better? They rev to the moon, yeilding lots of HP for that amount of torque. The results speak for themselves.

I hope this helps to clear some of this up. If there are any more specific questions, by all means, ask away :)

Just look at any of the old muscle cars, a good majority of them have more torque than hp, and they are fast as hell. Just need a few more gears....


Well as of American muscle cars they hve hi end HP. My Friend raced a 69 Camero with his 90 Teg basic mods. He took the camero off line... but after awhile the camero caught up and that was it. But now im 50/50 with the headers now. I looked at some Greddy headers on Nopi.com and they made a 4-1 design. So that got me thinking... And Greddy do have a pretty good reputation behind all thier products. So Im thinking Greddy over DC Sports.??? Greddy 4-1 Vs DC Sports 4-2-1. So now i dont know. Im not going to buy those brands but im back to 50/50 now =\

Hey drewh4386 Thats a good way of putting it! Good Job now i know what i want 100% for sure. So 4-1 it is. I always knew cars that shift later then other cars will eventually catch up with the car with more torque. So now i have my mind set. 4-1 it is Baby! Thanks alot man for the good infomation.

lol! yeah I just thought I'd let everybody know (who didn't know that hp is measured off of tq*rpm / 5252. SOme people in here were saying it like they were 2 different tweakers that can be seperately be gained and lost. BUt like I said it all depends on what you want to do.

Hey one last question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok im changing up my piping to 2.5 SOooo what i want to know is should i get 4-2-1 to make up for my loss torque scince im going 2.5 with no CAT? Basically its going to be down pipe to Straight 2.5 with no cat.

I would guess so because you lose a little back pressure with everything straight through. :)
which equals loss of power in a N/A.

I would guess so because you lose a little back pressure with everything straight through. :)
which equals loss of power in a N/A.


Ok so still 4-1 or 4-2-1? let me know because im going to buy it off ebay today which is sunday.

if you are look for lower torque/hp get the 4-2-1 because with a bigger straight thru pipe you will lose alot with the same set-up with 4-1. But not enough to lose stock hp/tq. or at least that is what i felt racing.
After experimenting.....
I had a 4-1 with no cat.
It was a bit noticeable with stock piping.
The exhaust pressure is not going to have much to pressure against. Thus creating power loss. Too much pressure will create power loss also. I'll put it like this....when I'm (dangerously) speeding down the high with a friends, (160hp. all his is in the low end) when i'm in the upper rpms, he is no match. Makes me wish I had a turbo. :)

i see that you have a 4-1 header on yours. What is i get a 2.5 magna flow cat? should that help out or no CAT is better? haha ok if you where me and is going to do 2.5 a 4-1 is the way to go for that set up?

Me i have 2.25. I'm saving 2.5 for the turbo.

Me i have 2.25. I'm saving 2.5 for the turbo.

Soo your saying 2.25 is the way to go if your a n/t?? I didnt do my piping yet because im waiting for my headers to come in this week. Some people in dsmtuners.com said to go with 2.5, so im confused??? Which is the better gain in hp 2.25" or 2.5??

2.5 is better.

haha cool my nizzle thats what im doing. 2.5 DP with 2.5 piping with no cat. But i hope i dont lose hp tho =\

I have been reading about headers for awhile and noticed that 4-1 headers give u a little extra tork during take off which can help u during drag races. Well on the other hand 4-2-1 headers help u during speeding in other words its good for long distance races.

Yooo! To give you a headsup when i went with the headers i had i noticed i gained more on the top end.