sway bar conversions

hey,
im really appriaciating all the replys to my previous posts, there are some very intellegent people that reply...

I have a honda civic 2000 4door.

i heard silver say that he put a rear 15mm sway bar from a DEL SOL!!

Q1) what year did the del sol have a 15mm rear sway bar??? and will it fit perfectly onto my 00 4dr?????

Q2) will there be a big handling change if i get the front 21mm sway bar from a 99 civic SI and installing it on my 2000 4dr?? basically is it worth getting the front sway bar???

thanks

Lots of the Honda ITA racers like to use no front sway bar or a Civic/CRX HF(if it fits, i dont know) front sway; which is basicly the smallest sway bar i think Honda makes(14mm?).

As for the del sol rear sway, i dont really and havent heard of anyone using them on their civics.

As for the del sol rear sway, i dont really and havent heard of anyone using them on their civics.

I'm currently running the OEM 15mm Del Sol VTEC rear swaybar on my '00 Civic coupe (http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/6322solbar2.jpg). I'm running that bar because quite frankly the 13mm Si bar is a joke IMO even though the Del Sol isn't very much bigger. I used to run a 22mm OEM ITR rear bar along with a Beak's kit until it started TEARING OUT (http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/6322subfrmfix22-med.jpg) my rear subframe after about 2 years of having it on. I was advised once I got the damage fixed (welding the tear rips and then having a "1/8th thick steel plate welded over that) by both my friend's dad who did the repairs for me, and also by a nationally ranked auto-X guy that I should NOT put the ITR bar back on, which I wasn't really planning to anyways. I was lucky it didn't rip the fram completely to the LCA mounting points. Long story short, I explored my OEM rear swaybar choices and setteled on the Del Sol bar since it's the biggest OEM bar that WON'T damage the very thin subframe that all 6th gen EK/EJ Civics come with, and also won't need any reinforcement kit for.

As far as OEM goes, the options are as follows:
13mm '99-'00 Civic Si swaybar
14mm '94-'01 Integra GSR swaybar
15mm Del Sol VTEC swaybar

Obviously the Del Sol bar won't make your car nearly as stiff in handling as the 22mm ITR bar, but at least it won't mess up your car and/or frame either, and it IS more noticeable than the skimpy 13mm Si swaybar.

As for a front bar, NO it's not worth getting if you want to balance out the handling since FF cars like ours will always bias towards understeer. The stiffer you make the front, the more it'll understeer. Adding a rear swaybar and NO front bar like how my Civic is set up, will make the car more balanced towards the rear and allow the rear of the car to rotate out more on it's own, and not understeer as much. With my old ITR rear bar setup, my car was very sensative to being able to kick the rear out very easily. Anyways, for you to add a front bar at least of OEM variety, you'll have to swap out your front LCAs for a set from either an Si or EX Civic of the same year/generation. That's a pain in the ass in itself. Plus something I've heard about how the mar has to go OVER the tranny hump and that's hard to do without dropping the tranny. I'd just stick with a rear swaybar and call it a day. :2cents:

Great reply silver!!

i really apriciate your help... you are very informed, and sound trust worthy due to your experiences...

ok enough ass kissing..

what about the civic 99 SIR bar??? i heard that it was thicker then 13mm... can anyone confirm this???

thanks

get back at me

Great reply silver!!

i really apriciate your help... you are very informed, and sound trust worthy due to your experiences...

ok enough ass kissing..

what about the civic 99 SIR bar??? i heard that it was thicker then 13mm... can anyone confirm this???

thanks

get back at me

Firstly front or rear bar, and also the SiR is the US equvallent to the Si in Canada unless you're talking a JDM spec model which I can't remember if there was an SiR or not. In any event, I'm sure it's also 13mm because the subframe should be the same as normal EK/EJ Civics. Only the Civic Type-R and Integra Type-R have a much thicker rear subframe that can withstand the forces that the 22mm bar they both have will exirt onto the frame. But this isn't to say the SiR 100% had a 13mm bar, it just wouldn't seem logical that it would not have it.

But yeah, I guarantee my word as gold on the Del Sol 15mm bar. I've been studying up on Civic suspension and suspension in general for the past 3 years, either by talking to reps from manufactures and companies, as well as personal experience. Anyways, good luck with things. Shoot any other questions you have on it my way, I'll be glad to answer. :cool:

Not trying to take this thread over but while we are on the subject...do I have to worry about the same type of wear from putting a thick rear sway bar on my ls. Is the subframe stronger than that of a civ? I want to get a sway bar really bad. THere is already an small oem one up front. Sounds like it would be pointless to upgrade that one because of the understeer.

Not trying to take this thread over but while we are on the subject...do I have to worry about the same type of wear from putting a thick rear sway bar on my ls. Is the subframe stronger than that of a civ? I want to get a sway bar really bad. THere is already an small oem one up front. Sounds like it would be pointless to upgrade that one because of the understeer.

Best I can offer is to find out (H-T maybe?) if there's any tearout issues with DC2 Tegs. I haven't heard of any personally, then again I never did about Civics WITH the Beak's kit till after I got mine. :( I'd imagine the subframe is thicker than an EK, like how an EG/5th gen subframe is thicker, it's definitely nowhere as thick as an ITR. Remember the GSR came with a 14mm bar, and my guess is that's about as thick as they thought the subframe would handle. If you do go for an ITR bar or something similar in size, do so at your own risk. A company called A-Spec Racing makes a SWEET subframe brace for running an ITR or similar bar on thinner metal subframe Hondas. Might also be worth looking into. The $190 cost of it makes VERY affordable by far compared to your subframe ripping and having to get it repaired like i did with mine. Luckily a friend of mine's dad hooked up the welding and fabrication of the plates we welded on, FREE of charge to me. At a machine shop that would have cost me hundreds of dollars otherwise.

A company called A-Spec Racing makes a SWEET subframe brace for running an ITR or similar bar on thinner metal subframe Hondas.
That's what im planning on getting. Looks very beefy; some people are running 32mm hollow sways on them with no problems.

I think someone did tearout their subframe on a DC(non-ITR), just search around on H-T.

That's what im planning on getting. Looks very beefy; some people are running 32mm hollow sways on them with no problems.

I think someone did tearout their subframe on a DC(non-ITR), just search around on H-T.

Unless one has the super thick ITR subframe, I'd think it's possible on any EF/EG/EK/DC2/DA Honda or Acura.

I've heard that too about the subframe brace. I figure I've spent enough on my stuff thus far to make buying the A-spec brace not justifyable to me anylonger, esp. when I can revalve my Teins and get the same results with no risk or tearing anything which is what I'll end up doing with them. I did back some time ago want to get the 26mm Mugen rear bar, but not for the $270 asking price for it. Problem with the ITR bar is that it's solid and not hollow, so it has NO give to it what-so-ever. I'm surprised really that the frame gave out using it with me before any of the bolts holding it on gave out.

cool where are you getting your aspec bar from? Should I get tower as well as tie bar or will tower be cool for a while and I could eventually upgrade to tie....which on first?

Is this weapon r a piece of crap? http://www.eautoworks.com/html/ORD-1-1-1-24380.cfm

http://www.a-spec-racing.com/ email him for more info.

get the tower bars first.

that weapon r looks like some others ive seen except it uses 2 connecting bars(or whatever theyre called); never really heard anything bad about them(the company).

cool where are you getting your aspec bar from? Should I get tower as well as tie bar or will tower be cool for a while and I could eventually upgrade to tie....which on first?

Is this weapon r a piece of crap? http://www.eautoworks.com/html/ORD-1-1-1-24380.cfm

With the swaybar you won't really need tiebars at all. For the front I'd suggest an H-brace like I have over a tiebar. I have the Megan Racing one, if you check their website they ripped off a picture of the one on my car to show how it looks installed.

With the swaybar you won't really need tiebars at all. For the front I'd suggest an H-brace like I have over a tiebar. I have the Megan Racing one, if you check their website they ripped off a picture of the one on my car to show how it looks installed.


coo. Thanks for the info everyone. Does ls come stock with front tower, cuase I have a really small one up front already? I heard that the rear is more important cause if the front is too strong it will be more prone to understeer.

ive always thought the Type-Rs were the only ones with stock tower bars, unless you are talking about sway bars, then yes alot of the Hondas have stock ones up front.

ive always thought the Type-Rs were the only ones with stock tower bars, unless you are talking about sway bars, then yes alot of the Hondas have stock ones up front.

Sry I did mean sway frnt sway bar(located above engine) not tower.

Sry I did mean sway frnt sway bar(located above engine) not tower.

Above the engine IS a tower/strut bar. Swaybar is UNDER the car attached to the control arms. Only the Civic and Integra Type-R's came with one stock.

Above the engine IS a tower/strut bar. Swaybar is UNDER the car attached to the control arms. Only the Civic and Integra Type-R's came with one stock.

Well alrighty to clarify, I have frnt tower(above engine bay) and I believe that is it. Am I going to want toget rear tower or rear sway first?

Well alrighty to clarify, I have frnt tower(above engine bay) and I believe that is it. Am I going to want toget rear tower or rear sway first?

Rear swaybar for sure. A rear tower bar won't do you very much if anything, they definitely don't reduce sway.

Well alrighty to clarify, I have frnt tower(above engine bay) and I believe that is it. Am I going to want toget rear tower or rear sway first?

Rear swaybar for sure. A rear tower bar won't do you very much if anything, they definitely don't reduce sway.

Swaybar is UNDER the car attached to the control arms. Only the Civic and Integra Type-R's came with one stock.

I know for sure that the 91 Accord LX has a front sway, and have read about the Prelude having front sways(but havent checked in person), so im pretty sure the civic and integra-r arent the only ones with front sways...

I know for sure that the 91 Accord LX has a front sway, and have read about the Prelude having front sways(but havent checked in person), so im pretty sure the civic and integra-r arent the only ones with front sways...

I meant CTR and ITR only for upper front strut bar. MOST Hondas except usually for DX's and sometimes LX's don't come with a front sway. All Preludes (6th gen at least, maybe 5th gen too) come with a front swaybar.

The rear sway bar only assists the springs and shocks right. Are the springs and shocks the majority of the body roll. I just got some koni reds, and I know that is going to stiffen everything up greatly seeing as whoever dropped this car didn't change the shocks. HOw much will sway bar make a difference after shocks are installed?

The rear sway bar only assists the springs and shocks right. Are the springs and shocks the majority of the body roll. I just got some koni reds, and I know that is going to stiffen everything up greatly seeing as whoever dropped this car didn't change the shocks. HOw much will sway bar make a difference after shocks are installed?

A BIG differance unless you're running at least 12kg (738lbs.) rate springs or higher. Reds can only support about up to 500lbs springs or so if even that much.

Any Idea what the spring rate of Skunk2 coilvers are??? I know they are not nearly that high!

Any Idea what the spring rate of Skunk2 coilvers are??? I know they are not nearly that high!

Oh neverind, just found this..."If you want stiffer springs, the 94+ teg coils will fit on a 92-95 civic. The Skun2 teg ones have a 550lbs/inch front rate and 450 rear. "

Are these pretty stiff though? I don't know what is stiff and what isn't!

Oh neverind, just found this..."If you want stiffer springs, the 94+ teg coils will fit on a 92-95 civic. The Skun2 teg ones have a 550lbs/inch front rate and 450 rear. "

Are these pretty stiff though? I don't know what is stiff and what isn't!

For Civics the Skunk2's are 500lbs front and 400lbs rear. How stiff? Ehough the start rattling everything in your car after a couple months, and possibly make your back all sore. That's 9kg front and 7kg rear in metric terms. My Teins are currently 559lbs (10kg) front and 336lbs (6kg) rear. At the stiffest dampening setting, they are painfully stiff.

For Civics the Skunk2's are 500lbs front and 400lbs rear. How stiff? Ehough the start rattling everything in your car after a couple months, and possibly make your back all sore. That's 9kg front and 7kg rear in metric terms. My Teins are currently 559lbs (10kg) front and 336lbs (6kg) rear. At the stiffest dampening setting, they are painfully stiff.


Great, So I guess it is about time to start tieing everything down :shakehead . Will my Koni reds be able to hand such a stiff spring...will I have to get them revalved later on down the road???

Great, So I guess it is about time to start tieing everything down :shakehead . Will my Koni reds be able to hand such a stiff spring...will I have to get them revalved later on down the road???

Only way to find out is to call up Koni directly. I'm not sure if they are valved similar to the Yellows or not.

The information on spring ratesthat follows is directly from Skunk2 themselves (Skunk2, 951-808-9888).

Skunk2 Civic coils have rates of 450lb/inch front and 350 rear, a little less than the 500/400 stated. 94+ Teg coils have 550lbs front and 450 rear.

Now Gorund Controls come with I believe around 380/280 as standard rates, though you can request CUSTOM spring rates and spring lengths for the coilovers. SO you should be able to specify a softer rate as well as a stiffer one, whichever you desire. Unlike Ground Control, Skunk2 DOES NOT offer custom spring rates. Either way, standard civic GC"s are a little softer than standard civic skunks, PLUS they have a lifetime warretny to the origanal purchaser versus a 90 day warrenty like Skunk2.

On a side note, I suppose "too sift" is all relative. I drove around riding on bumpstops for 2+ years back in the day (BIG no no, I forget to cut them down). That is very stiff, regardless of rates, since the bumpstop prevents further comperesion. Now in retrospect, my current proper set-up of Nuespeed Spec SP3 Koni Yellows and Custom Rates ground cotnrols may SOUND stiff (550 front, 450 rear thats 10kg front and 8kg rear in metric terms). However, I find it perfectly fine and plesantly comfortable, despite the fact I suspect most people would disagree. After riding bumpstops that long many years ago, these rates are a breeeze!!!! In fact, I wish I had gone a little stiffer, LOL. Of curse, my shocks can handle it, so I'm all good in that aspect.

Here are some manufacturer numbers you can call.

Skunk2 951-808-9888

Ground Control 530-677-8600

On a side note, I suppose "too sift" is all relative. I drove around riding on bumpstops for 2+ years back in the day (BIG no no, I forget to cut them down). That is very stiff, regardless of rates, since the bumpstop prevents further comperesion. Now in retrospect, my current proper set-up of Nuespeed Spec SP3 Koni Yellows and Custom Rates ground cotnrols may SOUND stiff (550 front, 450 rear thats 10kg front and 8kg rear in metric terms). However, I find it perfectly fine and plesantly comfortable, despite the fact I suspect most people would disagree. After riding bumpstops that long many years ago, these rates are a breeeze!!!! In fact, I wish I had gone a little stiffer, LOL. Of curse, my shocks can handle it, so I'm all good in that aspect.


I think the japs consider that soft too, since they use higher spring rates for their Touge race cars in the Hondas(i remember the Spoon eg using something like 16k/14s and some of the DC2s going 20k/16k). the touge "courses" are pretty much just any strip in the mountains so theres lots of bumps and stuff.

Ok quick questions...Just istalled my Koni Reds up front. Only thing is the stock shocks didn't have any bumpstops and and Koni did not supply me with a pair. I am going to get them as soon as possible...can't be too expensive! Am I going to have to cut them If I want a low drop?...I am thinking around 2" or so...just want to get rid of that nasty wheel well space. Am I safe driving around on them untill I put the bumpstops on? I also have the reds on factory settings as far as stiffness...anyone know what this is? Once I get bumpstops and I takes the shocks off I think I am going to make them stiffer for sho. I had my car on a lift for about 12 hours...How much driving will I have to in order for the springs to settle back down....(skunk2's")?

Bump stops should be used or the suspension can get damaged if it bottoms out, you run a good chance bottoming out the suspension with a lowered car.

Cut them in 1/2 and use the top piece.

roughly 500 miles for the suspension to settle.

Bump stops should be used or the suspension can get damaged if it bottoms out, you run a good chance bottoming out the suspension with a lowered car.

Cut them in 1/2 and use the top piece.

roughly 500 miles for the suspension to settle.
...
Alright damnit, where in the hell do I find bumpstops..Looking all over the place and can't find a store that sells it. Tried local stores and no one has anything. Can't even find a place online.

OH BTW, thnx for the info and sorry I am just frustrated. The last thing I want to do is ruin my shocks!!!

Found some generic ones but I need to know the size of the shaft diameter and how long of one I should buy.

You can get them from the dealer or www.hondaautomotiveparts.com

If you want to wait til tuesday I can check my junk drawer for some bump stops. I know I have 1 or 2 for sure, but I don't about 4. You can have them for the cost of shipping.

so do the bump stops just keep the lower coils of the spring from wearing away at the shockere it sits? or am i confused.

It cushions the strut so it doesn't bottom out internally.

I've never heard of a Stock OEM car that didn't have the bumpstops, did your car have previous suspension work done at any time, even before you owned it? It just seems odd that you had no bumpstops on the shafts of the shocks.

At any rate, even if Jackasssi doesn't have 4 bump stops, the site he supplied should have them, or as he said, you can buy them from the local Honda dealer.

Yeah, whoever had the car before me lowered the car on skunk2's. I don't know what he did with the bumpstops. He must have gone through the tires cause the dealership but new rubbers on. However they put 215's on the wheels, so now I have rubbing issues. Plus when I took the wheels off to change out the shocks I noticed they were heavier than ISH!!! Now the shocks don't bottom out but I still want lighter rims and smaller tires. ANyone know of any good deals on light rims and tires for 500 or so? I know they are not going to be super light unless I shell out 1000 or so but anything is going to be lighter than these mofos! Looking for 15's or 16's max.

Jackassi keep me posted on those bumpstops if you find any and thnx for the links guys.