random car stuff

so since i school is over for the summer i find myself just doing to tutorials to work on my rendering skills, the most important thing being using markers again and learning how to use pastels moreso than actual design. just trying to get that mileage, the designs are purposely simple or were not created by me but rather someone else's design that a tried to render the way they did.

the blue car is original to me the yellow is from herald belker's tutorial (if you have not heard of him check his site out www.haraldbelker.com i jacked the rear wheel up...the front one too
http://tinypic.com/50mhw1

this is from some random portfolio on cardesignnews, i liked the style of it so i decided to try to copy it, i changed acouple things but not much mainly trying to get the hang of this pastel thing
http://tinypic.com/51v5ae


this is from a tutorial by this british guy, mike, his work is awesome (you can find the tutorial here http://www.productdesignforums.com/index.php?showtopic=817) again just trying to get the hang of using pastels and markers and not having to think about design.
http://tinypic.com/51v536

Good work! I like the first one most. I'm also working on my sketching and copic skills. How many do you own? How do you loke them?

thanks, i have over 150 markers of different brands mostly primacolors though (copics are just too expensive), bought a bunch for cheap off of ebay a couple months back.

try ad markers by charpak.

your skills are getting there. slowly.

use your whole arm to make strokes.

Those are really cool!
I like mikedesign's work too.
He has some great stuff on his page :).

yes mike's work is very dope, yeah it seems sometimes as if i can't learn fast enough i have not tred charpak markers before...i prefer tria markers because they are not as juicy as most others i do not think i will be buying any more markers for a long while since i bought this cheapo 9*12 graphics tablet from a grocery store and it works fine but i plan to move up by the time school starts again

some sketches i did last night, they were for the contest but switched to something else

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/114648sketch1-med.jpg

a chopped truck, for the open air trucking contest

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/114648sketch2-med.jpg

Great drawings Tokes! I like the side view of the yellow porsche-looking one the best.

Alex

Very cool stuff, loving it!

I think your marker work is very solid!
And I bet your marker skills and drawing style
will really rock a tablet.

thanks grant, i wish that were true, still experimenting and try to learn to get used to it, so i "stuck" using paper and pencil to draw and the computer to render.

something i started to work on last night...screwed up the perspective on it but it ended up looking like a fisheye lens effect, next come the pastel..hopefully i do not mess it up...

http://tinypic.com/54dv8p

dude,

I love that one!!!! Very very nice design!!!!! can't wait to see it finished!!!

I agree that one is going to look cool!

thanks grant, i wish that were true, still experimenting and try to learn to get used to it, so i "stuck" using paper and pencil to draw and the computer to render.http://tinypic.com/54dv8p

being "stuck" drawing on paper is a higher art than using a computer only. doing both is the ultimate.

I agree bonzelite :)
And sorry tokes I skipped part of your reply.
Those academic drawing and seeing skills that I am still
trying to learn are most important. And doing it on paper first is
still way easier. With a better feel.

i agree with paper being the best medium to hone one's skill but having to constantly buy all these supplies is being is somewhat annoying, i kind of want to move away from having to scan things markers running dry/out, taking up space with all the misc. stuff rulers, templates, sketchbooks...the great thing about working digitally is i do not have to worrk about any of that stuff it is all on the computer...i can wait until i can afford to buy a tablet pc...

sketches from last weeks contest

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/114648sketch3-med.jpg

last night's sketches

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/114648Mostuff-med.jpg

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/114648Mostuff1-med.jpg

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/114648Mostuff2-med.jpg

trying to render a black car, i think i overdid it, wanted to see what other people thought of it

http://www2.uic.edu/~aotabo2/neverendingsketch.jpg

ferrari concept, took the pic with a digi cam, i hope it will look better scanned, pretty satisfied with the way this is going so far, i think i will finish the rest tonight

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/114648ferrari1.jpg

finished!!!
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/114648ferrari3.jpg

a little closer up...
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/114648ferrari2-med.jpg

i jacked up the wheels and i think the side view makes it look a bit cartoony and the shading could be a lot better...

Tokes these are great! Your drawings rock!
I LOVE your work for that design competition!
Your stuff has alot of what is missing from new car designs today.
It has a strong personality. Your lines and forms are really animated.
I love the ferrari too! It looks better than the f-60, I think. I hate the "lancia stratos" side
windows that the enzo has and I don't dig the front end at all.
Your concept looks kind of threatening and alot of modern hypercars
have lost that. I like that rough gold box back there too! I don't
understand it, but it looks good. Cool work!

The black ps rendering seems a little unfinished and needs some solid
white cuts or hot spots to give it the shiny metal look.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/grantrl78/neverendingsketch2.jpg

wow, thanks

i agree with you on the black on but i just can not get it right, it urks me that i can not do it because being that black is my favorite color on a car and i can not for the life of me figue out how to render it

it looks 100x better, the sharp highlights really make it come off the screen, it also highlights some irregularities in the design that i should fix...

i noticed you work mostly in ps do you use a mouse or a tablet?

Awesome ferrari design. Great job. Are you planning a automotive design career?

Man you did the hard part.
I use a wacom tablet. 4x5 so it isn't very expensive. It is easier
than a mouse because it is pressure sensitive. Kind of like an airbrush.
And I think your design is cool, my highlights are kind of outta place :)

i do cars for fun, athletic footwear design is what i hope to do though i would not be opposed to designing cars...its just that car design is much more competitive

i had i 4x5 wacom too, but i accidentally broke the pen trying to fix it a coulpl of months ago, and a new pen would cost half what i paid for it...

i do cars for fun, athletic footwear design is what i hope to do though i would not be opposed to designing cars...its just that car design is much more competitive

i had i 4x5 wacom too, but i accidentally broke the pen trying to fix it a coulpl of months ago, and a new pen would cost half what i paid for it...

listen to tokes: "for fun.." !!! ??? what???!!!

tokes, you can do this for $$$$$$. ever think about art center?

listen to tokes: "for fun.." !!! ??? what???!!!

tokes, you can do this for $$$$$$. ever think about art center?

I think everybody who has a job in the design industry started with doing it for fun?! It's something else like if you work at the cash box in the supermarket...

I think everybody who has a job in the design industry started with doing it for fun?! It's something else like if you work at the cash box in the supermarket...

well, for me, i hated drawing. i thought it was sick joke from god that i could draw. it meant that it wasn't going to be fun for me, because i had to take it to another level. for me it was a calling. and a lifestyle choice. and it meant that i had to work very hard to compete.

i mean to say: me, you, whomever --we do not "have" to do anything. you can sit around drinking and smoking pot all day. or you can work in a retail checkout counter. and that is all good. i guess. you can join the armed forces eventhough you can draw or design. you can become a doctor. or a truck driver. whatever.

but to get gnarly with real work, to make at least a middle-class living by plying a skilled trade, no matter what it is, is very competitve and difficult to gain ground with. some days, i cannot stand drawing. i hate it. others may not feel this way. but i do not always like it. it is labor. and deadlines can often be a mode of torture.

but at the same time, i am loving it. i love it because of what i already said: it is competitive. and i am fortunate to have the true-grit to actually compete. and gain ground. and not do something else --like have a "real" job!

love/ hate. :biggrin:

Originally Posted by bonzelite
listen to tokes: "for fun.." !!! ??? what???!!!

tokes, you can do this for $$$$$$. ever think about art center?

well everything i do at his point is for fun, the best way to succeed at something is to have fun while doing it, but i have always had this thing for footwear so getting a chance to design them would be cool in my book

there was a time last semester when i was seriously entertaining the idea of trying to get into a school like accd or ccs (for entertainment design), i was just really fustrated with my school and the lack of 2d training and the overall design program in general.

after doing research i found that transfers into these programs usually end up a couple steps back as far progress to graduation and i do not have the money to pay for what could amount to another 3 years of schooling especially at these schools where the tuition is astronomical.

being that i only have 1 year left to graduate i figured i would just work outside of school to improve my skills, learn new things, and use these online forums to get feedback

bonzelite, have you heard of art center at night? that is what i am thinking about enrolling into after i graduate because i have haerd that many of the same instructors teach then and the rate is lower.

I understand what you mean, bonzelite. I once heard the statement "Don't make your hobby to your job. You'll loose a hobby"

I currently love drawing. I do it whenever I have time. It's a contrast to boring and also hard school. But if I had to draw every day... maybe it wouldn't be enjoyable anymore and it wouldn't be that fun.

tokes, have you heard of Gnomon? its in LA. you can take classes a la carte, as it were, in industrial design, 2d, 3d, you name it. yes, Art Center --i have heard of the night classes there. that is just over in pasadena about 20mn from here. gnomon is in hollywood. i think. where do you live?

knight, as i am older and a bit wiser (hopefully) i have mellowed a bit, making strides to start my own full-blown company "for fun." it's time to have some fun, actually.

yes, friend at school got me a copy of the herald belker sketching gnomon dvd, which was helpful and a little comforting because it made me realize that these guys do crappy sketches just like i do the real difference is turning that crappy sketch into something golden...

i am in the midwest which is a long way from cali but i figure i after school i will move out west work on my porfolio to position myself to get a job with the swoosh

i think the beauty of drawing for me is after all the messing up and crappiness when i finally manage churn out something halfway decent i can stand back a little and see progress that is what i enjoy

i think the beauty of drawing for me is after all the messing up and crappiness when i finally manage churn out something halfway decent i can stand back a little and see progress that is what i enjoy

YES. this is put well. you said a lot there. that is what makes it worth it. the hard work, the awful sketches, the staying up late, the fatigue, the frustration, the "takes longer than i ever thought" all pays off when you nail it. that is why i love/ hate it.

yes. belker is AWESOME. i have some copies of his work up in my office. i think he was at GM or something before. he's an industrial designer. and a very amazing designer/ illustrator. i admire his work highly.

if you ever need a place to stay to check out/ visit socal, you can sleep on the couch here, provided you let me know when and how long you will visit. car rental is expensive enough.

median rents for a 2bdrm apt in LA are now $1300-$1500/mo. so you'd need a roommate. look in classifieds or college bulletin boards. there are cheaper alternatives, too, like renting out a single room in a house. sometimes you can nab a good deal for like $500-$600/mo for that. i rented out a room in my house for only $300/mo to a friend, before my g/f moved in.

also, downtown LA has millions of square feet of affordable loft spaces. i'd look there first, actually, were i fresh from out of town.

:)

that would be very cool of you, but it will be a while before a could take you up on it, thanks for the offer though...

i believe belker worked for mercedes before he bolted for the movies, he has a really unique style that borders illustration and realism, during a computer class i had a couples semesters ago i would come in and stare at his site for half the class i do not know how i passed it...

yeah improvement is a big motivation for me especially when i see stuff on the net from that literally blows me away everyday, that is why i never get tired of design/drawing there is always something to learn, improve upon, someone/thing new to get inspired by

yep.

y

i think the beauty of drawing for me is after all the messing up and crappiness when i finally manage churn out something halfway decent i can stand back a little and see progress that is what i enjoy

I totally agree.

The strange thing is, when I look at it myself, I'm proud and satisfied. (if it is good in my oppinion.)

If I then show it to my parents, they don't mind. "The wheels are too big" is all my father said to my latest contest entry. Or " I don't think they would built it".
And they are serious with their oppinion. They don't make jokes. That always leads me to question myself how good it really is. Why I did it. I did it for me, for sure. But if the public doesn't like it, or gives no feedback, what is it worth? It's worth for me at the beginning. But the reaction of others can take or give it more worth. More or less satisfaction, more or less money...

Art is hard to rate, hard to assess.

This forum, with professionals like you bonz, or guys who design cars too, like you, tokes, helps a lot to get a feel for that.

knight, had i listened to a lot of my parents' criticisms of my art over the years, i would not be where i am now. so realize they are not able to relate to your desires, are perhaps a bit jealous of your talents, and follow your own bliss. this is not always easy, though, as the opinions of our parents can often mean more to us than we would like to admit.

of note, as well, it is important to compete with others in this globalized capitalism. it is very hard. therefore, it is important to be able to sell your services and become in-demand. this is just simply going to happen by hard work through constant practice of drawing and designing. in time, your own style and skill will start to appeal to others, sometimes in ways you cannot expect. be true to what you are really about inside. and they will come knocking at your door --eventually.

life is more about endurance than sprinting: fast rises or lucky shortcuts to the top are often tenuous ventures at best. however, gradual paces ahead to quality, and solid skill, and love of the craft, are the equity postions in life. draw what you want to. be who you really are. the powers above will notice this and help you along. even when you think it is not true.

unfortunately, at times, remarks of a parent or sibling about our achievements can be the worst kind of words to hear: often, it is members of our own families that have the worst kind of support, the most harmful words, the most abusive of ways. families can often be rife with jealousy, resentment, emotional abuse, verbal abuse. often, a family upbringing is something to get thousands of miles away from. in my view, when you leave home, REALLY leave. move to the big intimidating city and grow up fast. a sheltered existence in "anywhere USA," or smalltown/ anyplace, will only result in a boring and mediocre day-to-day malaise. go to the city and compete. and invest in yourself and property. the artist's path is often a hardcore lesson in brutality of conditions, of discomfort. and this will harden you, and give you an edge. you can then become unstoppable, even when all of the doors are closing around you.

have a solidarity of mind and spirit, and just move on. sail your ship to your own destiny. you are the captain; it is your journey. you cannot live for your parents. or anybody else. life is happening right now before your eyes, and it is your own. carpe diem.

Knightvision,
I agree with bonzelite.
Also THE most brutal ones are family
members who happen to be pro illustrators.
They can be friggin assassins !!!!
:) :banghead: :icon16:
I have an uncle who has been working in illustration for 30 years.
His name is richard waldrep. He pretty much verbally destroyed my
attempt at a portfolio when I was in highschool.
It hurt bad because I worshiped him. From what I have learned about his work, he pretty much rips
off a german guy called JC Leyendecker.
Very traditional strict drawing and painting style that
I really wanted to copy and learn from.
He could have taught me so much about illustration and art but decided
to discourage me. I still really don't understand his reasons. And at 27, I
still have all of his negative crap floating around in my head.
His work is really good though. But kind of out of style these days.
It even looks kind of digital. But it was done with airbrush and guashe.
I am still so jealous. :) That prick!!!!
Sometimes I feel like he was doing me a favor. Because he knows that art is too tough. Other times
I know he did it because he is a b@st@rd.
But what I do is try and use his negative stuff as fuel.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/grantrl78/3408_airforce.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/grantrl78/215_WALsteelmill.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/grantrl78/229_Bulldog.jpg

grant, your uncle's stuff is tight. technical. and well executed. it is dated, though. i agree with you. it is a bit "staid." it may have been really cool ten to fifteen years ago. today, it is a bit too conservative.

your story only confirms what i said, as you agree. what is awful about it is that very often, even a passing comment to a younger artist-to-be can utterly ruin that young person. a person at 9, 10, 13, 16 yrs old, etc... is very fragile and impressionable. and they hold very highly the opinions of adults. particularly family.

the irony is that family is often (not always) the worst possible place to get feedback and support from. very often, the shortcomings of your dad, mom, uncle, are projected directly upon the child, ie, YOU. instead of support, verbal abuse is often levied AGAINST the family itself in the form of little put-downs and remarks that leave you feeling like shit.

the truth is that often, the parent (or parent figure) is resentful of the child's seemingly bright future and ample time to make a life for themselves. VERY OFTEN it is the parent whose life has "passed them by" that hates and envies the children who have only time and endless possibilities.

it is VITAL that the child (in this case you and me) recover our sense of "innocence," and carry on regardless of attacks. you will begin to see, too, that many of your friends may also not like it when you are actually making something of yourself.

my mother, to this day, barely makes any supportive comments to me. instead she resorts to verbal abuse and "marginalizing" comments about what i am doing, or what i have "not" done. what is often worse than overly-critical comments are NONE. this seemingly harmless aloofness is called "witholding." and this is very abusive. it creates the feeling that you do not matter. as if what you are doing matters zero. you are invisible. your efforts are pointless.
i get this, as well.

my grand response to all of this crap is to succeed, and do things that "cannot be done," despite what others think of me. and this is never-ending. every stage of life has a new and different set of playing fields. what once worked ten years ago now does not really work or matter. so it is very vital to be flexible in an often inflexible world of opinions and judgements. yet the world constantly changes.

if YOU change "too much" for your parents or friends, they see you as a traitor. if you begin to outpace and outperform these people, as well, you are hated for it. and they may say you are just "lucky." and this is bullshit all over again.

you create your own luck. by taking care of the present and being very sober and aware of what you are doing, you will steer your ship IN THE MOMENT and your future will come to meet you. nevermind what naysayers may do or say: they are spiritually dead people. and they are going NOWHERE.

i speak from my heart and from brutal experience. and you seem overdue and ready to hear it. and if you've heard it before, then hear it again.

another thing, too, grant, you are 27 --a pivotal age, generally. by that age i was gnarly for going pro. i was semi-pro in atlanta, ga, making a decent living for once in my life. and i stuck with it, despite the hardships of rejection and unpredictalbe income. it was my dream and reality.

i will tell you if you want it bad, you will do it. at 27, you are at a critical period right now, as you are setting up choices and habits that will impact the entire decade of your 30's. do not take it lightly. pace yourself for 30 or 31 and set reachable goals in your art. consider moving away and starting over. you will know what to do if you are brutally honest with yourself. do not "fall into" some job or career that you really don't want. be honest. you must be. else you will be living a lie.

we are all different, i know. what i did worked for me at specific moments in my life. i moved away finally at 29, a bit old, but just my point -- had i stayed any longer, i may have never really changed. the 30's have a way of equalizing people: they either really begin to accel, or they stagnate and write themselves the same script year after year after year.

often, when i visit back east, so many neighbors and peers are just stuck in the same old boring crap that they were doing in their twenties. i am 35 now. and my life has drastically changed because i pursued my destiny to be a professional illustrator. it is often not easy. but is better. were it so easy, then everyone would do it. but it is challenging and requires a skill that few ever have. and it continues to get even better the farther in it i go.

grant is that your uncle's stuff, hot diggity that ish is tight! it does really look like it was done digitally, i would not worry about age, it seems as long as a person has passion, talent, and uniqueness there always will be a place to fit in, a friend of mine became a designer with no formal training at 30 and from an online q&a with feng zhu someone asked him about getting into the business with a late start:

You are 29? Not a problem! It’s never too late to get into anything. Here’s a little story that might inspire you. If you have the Art of Episode 3 book, look for an artist named Sang Jun Lee. Believe it or not, he didn’t do any drawings (and I mean none), before attending college in the U.S. After he got an internship at ILM, he drew like crazy. Within only 2-3 years, he has reached the level he’s at now….which is pretty amazing! He draws like a seasoned pro. What a great inspiration huh?


i guess i have been lucky, people around me have always been supportive of my "artistic" aspirations, even though they generally either do not get what it is that i have done or do not particularly like the design...

i feel in many ways opposite to bonzelite's opinion, by and large people want to see the people around them succeed and want the best for others, and many times discourage out of concern i think, i liken art&design to sports in that it is very competitve and is difficult to and limited in the number of people who are able to "make it", sometimes it is because people have been down these paths and know what could be ahead that they desire to steer others away not realizing that they are being cold, hurtful, chiping away at the psyche of their loved ones...

and just like sports, everyone is a critic, but unlike sports art is vaguely defined, if a kid is for most it is hard to be encouraging when you do not understand the thing the person you care about is pursuing, like i said we all would want the best for those we care about, throughout history being a great artist has not equalled success in fact if you asked someone born in modern times who there favorite artist or designer was they would likely name a muscian of fashion label, in many ways art/design is an invisible occupation to those who art in or interested in it...i would say the picture that comes into people's mind when the mention of a graphic artist is that of the "starving or struggling" one...

i do not believe that most family members do any of this out of jealousy or resentment, but very likely it is probably out ignorance or wanting real or tangible success for those around us...

like when i was in high school i played football and basketball my father did not like it because of it violence, injuries, high risk low reward properties (he did not really care fot American football at all), therefore he would have no part in it (football), when i graduated i was going to thinking about walking-on to the college squad and he basically forbid me to do so, it was not out of jealousy or resentment it was just that they did not feel sports were a realistic career path

knightvision, i would not worry about family members criticizing, not liking, or understanding your designs because (1) you do it because you like to do it (2) if you do stuff that is far out people usually are not ready for it

as for assessing where you are and how far you have progressed they are many ways to do so, you can keep sketchbooks to track your progress and places like this forum are some of the best resources out there to get feedback and guage where you stand, no one learns in a vaccuum we are all influenced by life, other people and their work past and present, etc.

Damn it is interesting to read both of your takes on the same subject!
You two are awesome!
Both of you make great points! Both sides seem very valid. This is something that will bother the hell out of me. I think I need to call him. :)
I am a little more mature than I was ten years ago. I will probably learn alot from a conversation with him. But man I dread it. :(

tokes adds excellent points to this dialogue. his experience somewhat differs from mine; somewhat parallels it: both experiences have truth in them, as it is true that if somebody cannot relate to a certain interest, like art or dance or music, they will think it is not "valid." and this is out of pure ignorance, as tokes points out.

it is up to the individual artist to look at what may be going on in their situation. with mine, it was largely an emotionally abusive foundation, with some encouragement along the way.

with others, they may encounter very little emotional abuse, and receive much support from family. i was not really brought up that way, though. and many share in my experience, as well as tokes'. i did point out briefly that not every case is the same.

with grant, i felt a familiar pattern emerging from what he was saying. and i paralleled it with mine. in many cases, per tokes' take on it, it is the very concern of insecurity for the child in liking "art" that destroys that ambition in the child. the seemingly "ignorant care" can, and does, deflate, often destroys, the inner child/ artist. "you'r not going to be no ballerina. you need to find a job" --this is toxic caring.

definitely, many families are very "nuclear" and supportive and raise well-adjusted children. despite what i said earlier, i turned out ok, with expected baggage that i had to sort out. and continue to sort out. many artistic people are damaged. and in ways, this gives them an edge that would otherwise not exist. and the art is a perfect outlet for this damage. like in my case, i often drew scenes of graphic violence and chaos, raising concern among teachers and adults when i was very young. andin some ways, i have not changed much: i storyboarded many graphically violent action scenes in "Stealth." and i loved it. i had a ball.

Bonzelite I am indeed damaged - in the head :) :) :) :evillol: :grinyes:

Stealth looks like it will be good! Bet it was fun to do! You should
post some of em! That has to be a freakin sweet job!

Speaking of my damaged mind, I have a question. I do jobs that
take 3 hours to crank out. I have a list of 15. Is 30 dollars a job really
dumb for me to take?
They involve alot of emailing and changes and might take longer.
These orders all involve 100's of t-shirts.
I am not making anything that will sell in a
museum but I know my boss is getting rich off of this kind of deal.
How should I deal with this business stuff! I suck at it so bad!

Bonzelite I am indeed damaged - in the head :) :) :) :evillol: :grinyes:

Stealth looks like it will be good! Bet it was fun to do! You should
post some of em! That has to be a freakin sweet job!

Speaking of my damaged mind, I have a question. I do jobs that
take 3 hours to crank out. I have a list of 15. Is 30 dollars a job really
dumb for me to take?
They involve alot of emailing and changes and might take longer.
These orders all involve 100's of t-shirts.
I am not making anything that will sell in a
museum but I know my boss is getting rich off of this kind of deal.
How should I deal with this business stuff! I suck at it so bad!

yeah. i hope stealth is a good as it looks. it will probably be a pretty decent film.
lol about your damaged head.
about the t-shirt job: to me, that is rape. i know this guy will not have a hollywood movie budget to dip into to pay his people. and he is avoiding paying his "outsourced" labor too much --the essence of global capitalism: pay 3rd world people pennies on the dollar to maximize profit, minimize overhead. and this is exactly what he is doing to you.
for the work you will put into the job, with all of its changes and headaches, you are making shit. but that is my view.
if you have not done many jobs before, and you are not in a major city where there are all kinds of levels of work, by the shitloads, then it might be "ok."
if 3 hours/shirt/job is all you make, then in the best-case, you make $10/hr.
if each job has a few changes, making them out to be maybe 4 or 5 hrs/job, then you instantly make less and less the more you do: you may end up pocketing 5-7 dollars/hr. you can make that working at Best Buy or Starbucks. and you fork over only your time, not your creativity, for those jobs. and they're brainless jobs.
also, much of the work i do is not "museum quality," as it is hashed out so quickly that i do not even want to show it later to anyone. so drop that idea.
(for example, i can do a "photorealist" drawing of a car, and, to a commercial storyboard client, it is nice, but useless --worth nothing. i can then actually help them to plot out a commercial frame-by-frame, do shitty sketches that looked like i was drunk, and i am payed handsomely). quality of craftsmanship and skill does not always mean "you can get payed higher."

most work anyone ever does is not museum quality. often, that kind of work pays less, initially, because you come off as a "starving" artist. and, if you get into the gallery scene, it is very political, pretentious, and seldom about talent.
you will often make the most and easiest money from jobs where you don't do much labor or "art." you will be payed more for your intellectual brain-content, and less for a "museum like painting."

often, i have sat around all day waiting for a client to meet with me, and i draw nothing for about 7 hours. this happens actually semi-regularly --and i charge them for it, full price. for waiting.
sometimes i will punish a client with a bigger bill because the producer was an asshole, and made it difficult for me park my car.
sometimes i will finish a job too soon, and hold the artwork for hours so i do not give the client the idea that they can expect that swift service every time, as many jobs are case-by-case, many taking LONGER than i thought.

i could go on and on about this.

assess what you want to do in life. what do you want out of your art? to be in a museum? if so, then do that kind of work, regardless of pay. true "art" should be "invaluable" or "valueless." it should be created regardless of whether or not you want a paycheck.

if you want an immediate means of being payed, find a highly skilled niche and fill it. it will be competitive and capitalistic and very brutal. and it will be for money primarily. like storyboarding. or doing conceptual art for films: some really great stuff is created there, but is done PRIMARILY for income purposes only. posterity is last.

if you love cars, strive to be designer. i dunno what you want or expect out of your art, but i think you should have clear ideas of what that is. and you cannot know every possible future event that it may lead to, either. but that is the fun of it. you don't really quite know, but you have a general idea.

Damn - thanx bonzelite !!!
I really appreciate your amazing answers!!

"for the work you will put into the job, with all of its changes and headaches, you are making shit. but that is my view. " Man I agree.
I just wish this guy would be fair with me. He gets so offended when I try to discuss it with him. :smile:

Man your work sounds really cool!
I can only imagine how awesome it must be to
storyboard for movies!
Your experience is so valuable.
I have so much to learn about business period.
And appreciate how you are willing to discuss this stuff with me. :)

I just wish this guy would be fair with me. He gets so offended when I try to discuss it with him. :smile:

I have so much to learn about business period.
And appreciate how you are willing to discuss this stuff with me. :)

grant, this area is very vast. i nearly do not know where to continue with it. this could be an entire thread or sticky. "business and art: how to be good at both." i will tell you that from what i see out there, a majority of artists are not shrewd enough at business to really get "what they are worth." so many people with money toss around the artist like a needy child. and lots of artists perpetuate this bias by entertaining it.

i will tell you this. and this is the dead-cold truth: larger companies are often the better to work for, as they have vast money. they are not always willing to part with this money, but if you are good and solid, some of that money is yours automatically. it is a given. the very fact that you are on the phone with them, for example, is a statement. and you can tell them how you will work, where you will work, when you will work. and what you will charge them. this is the self-empowered place in life to be. and it is hard-won to the naive artist. i had a very hard time at the beginning of my career in the city.

there are always a myriad of things to take into account. you must learn to "read" a client, and say things according to their conditions. for example, if i came to you, grant, and said to you: "grant, i am going to charge you nine-thousand dollars an hour for a portrait of your cat," i would be laughed out the door. i would laugh you out the door, too, were you do to that me: you or i can find somebody else to do the drawing just as well, or better, for about five-hundred bucks, total price. this is only an example.

but, if you were Andy Warhol, and charged the same fee, that may be considered a bargain. the point is that without a reputation attached to your work, you can be as good as Leonardo DaVinci, and nobody will give a rats ass.
you can be better than DaVinci, and if you are invisible and carry no reputable claims to results, you are a high-risk vendor, or, worse, a young and naive wannabe. and people will cheapen you by assuming they can get away with paying you very little, yet demanding that you "put out" as if you were laying bricks in the hot sun. as if to work for "them" is this big deal and priviledge.

this can be very depressing and motivate the artist to drink or do narcotics: the "sensitivity" of the artist can get in the way of business. and this is why so many artists remain invisble and struggling and wishing and depressed.

do not take shit personally. and if you do, get the F3ck over it real quick, even if it hurts and you have to swallow it. realize the situation is what it is, and just move on. cleints are a dime-a-dozen, just as artists are. protect the good clients, and throw out the bad ones. you don't "need" every damn job that comes along, even though in the beginning you will turn away nobody. you will do every job. this is the nature of starting the long and painful endurance marathon of the journey. and it is ongoing. you are never "done." or "set." conditions are ever-changing.

i have barely begun to talk about this.

for the record, i do mostly tv commercials, not films. films are a once-in-a-blue-moon affair. i typically work exclusively with rob cohen. he requests me every time there is a film. or commercial.

i have many commercial clients. some minor, some bigger. i also do architectural renderings and set plans. my background is engineering drafting. i learned how to draw people and animals later in life. mechanical things came easier to me than organic things. so i attacked the harder things in earnest, as most jobs entail drawing people in action.

i know i have completely hi-jacked this thread. so i apologize for that. but the conversation seems to be quite evolving and intriguing. so on it goes.

I wish that you would hijack more threads!!!
Your stories rock.

"toss around the artist like a needy child"

It is kind of sad but that thoroughly sums up my life. I will work
for free, just tell me it looks good. :grinyes:

"The running man" - "The Legend of Billie Jean" I remember those!
I loved those movies. :)
Man - what a damn great guy to know. Must be cool to have a famous guy going to bat for you.

It is just mindblowing how guys like warhol get to that level where
everything they do is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And how they wink and nod
all the way to the bank. :) I think it goes back to
what you were saying about
how a brilliant creative mind in fineart is more important than
skill as an artist.

In school art history professors pointed out to me how much of
modern art is about taking aim at the idea of art
as something worth ungodly amounts of money.
And even poking fun at rich brainwashed clients.

Seems like they didn't teach me how not to be on the recieving
end of bad deals in art though. Kind of seems more important now. :)

very informative stuff bonzelite, and btw i was not trying to invalidate anyone'd experience, just give my take on it

and yes, i have read that most artist are notorious for not being able to handle the business side and usually have someone do all the numbers stuff so they can concetrate fully on their work...

very informative stuff bonzelite, and btw i was not trying to invalidate anyone'd experience, just give my take on it

and yes, i have read that most artist are notorious for not being able to handle the business side and usually have someone do all the numbers stuff so they can concetrate fully on their work...

tokes, i got you, buddy. i didn't take it like that. we encounter different things. yet we encounter similar things. your take on it is valid and i am glad you jumped in. i'd like you to jump in some more, actually.

for grant, others, one blaring contradiction or erroneous point often thrown out in colleges is this bullshit separation of "fine art" and "commercial art." what in the hell is that? rembrandt sold his stuff to the wealthy, and, in turn, made himself famously rich (he died alone and in poverty, however, as he was bad with his finances and did not change with the times).

most of the great heroes of art were all in business. except for the mentally challenged and impoverished van gogh, off my memory, i see only fame, wealth, and art interconnected with politics and history. many artists were sort of "wealthy endentured servants," like michaelangelo, as he was basically a rich slave of the church. he had a sort of implied perma-contract with them. his story is pretty miserable, actually.

the thing is, you cannot escape money. it will either be there for you, or it will be unattainable. particularly for an artist, money is often this whole "issue." it brings up moral, ethical, political issues: am i a capitalist? can i still be "sensitive" to the environment whilst being a capitalist and exploiting consumers? can i endure unfathomable waves of depression? can i be a father and support a family by being a sensitive artist who is kicked around by assholes all month, barley making jack shit for money? how well do i deal with assholes? can i soften my internal rage against passive-aggressive clients? can i stay awake all night sometimes and pour out piles of work and remain creative and solid?

these are vital questions to ask yourself as you are standing in front of the brutal mirror of your life. you must have a serious conversation with yourself.
you must consider that global capitalism is not going to support you as you age. you must front the big bucks for EVERYTHING yourself. retirement is UP TO YOU. get this idea in your head now and avoid suffering later. soon, very soon, this world will be ENTIRELY like that. america will only get MORE like that. no pensions. no supports. too expensive.

if you want to really "do it" like Nike says, then you must be willing to sacrifice the safety zones that entrap others into banal and mediocre existences. do not sell out your life to "falling into" some stupid and safe path in life. you MUST think like an entrepreneur. you must act like one, too. take the risks now and perpetually or you will hate yourself and regret how you wasted your time and life and sold out to a boring lifestyle of safety. or, rather, "perceived" safety, as there is no such thing as security anyway. so just embrace this and jump overboard. move away. piss people off. break up. divorce. skip town. gotta go, see ya.

ironically, you cannot only see $$$$ as the prime motivator. the money will arrive if and when you have taken the risks and the time to become masterful with skill and business savvy. and this takes years. it is like doing hard time in a prison, but you have the ability to choose your hell. this is my life. and it will be yours if you wish.

for grant, others, only when you have gone face-on into hell will you get to heaven in this lifetime of material existence. most people lead unremarkable lives of punching a card, or, worse, in societies where they have few human rights. and their families end up executed in a roadside ditch. most people on this earth do not live in priviledge. most do not realize any scant percentage of their dreams because they are afraid or politically oppressed. most humans on this planet live in poverty.

so can you be a capitalist and buy a home? many homes? by doing your art? can you reward yourself with wealth of spirit and bank account while most of the world is in perpetual suffering?

if so, then pursue your art as a BUSINESS. otherwise, you will be among the open-mic crowd smokng pot and barely making rent for the rest of your life, complaining about how "america is only about business," rather than enjoying it. since that is the case, america is primarily about business and profit, you might as well enjoy what that culture can afford you by becoming an entrepreneur and joining it.

otherwise, go eat dirt naked in the woods. and make your art for yourself all day.

tell that guy who wants to pay you 10 bucks an hour to go f*ck himself. but do it business-like and very hollywood: cut his throat with a smile and a handshake.

i definitely agree with you bonzelite, on this division of commercial art and fine art in education. at my school and probably many others, there exist an extreme division of all the "arts" one professor got so fustrated with the lack of collaboration that he quit...

besides the foundation classes we take in the 1st year, there is little contact between the different majors, if i had not taken a class on color theory i would not even been aware that my school had a fine arts program!? i have a professor that routinely tells students there is no place for fine art in design....

i would take it a step further though, and say everything has become segregated there used to be a time when there was NO division between art/architecture/biologies/design/engineering/mathematics/philosophy/sciences, most artists dabbleds in many of these field and were astute in their studies of them, da vinci and michealangelo come to mind but they were not the only renaissance men just the most well known...

"tell that guy who wants to pay you 10 bucks an hour to go f*ck himself. but do it business-like and very hollywood: cut his throat with a smile and a handshake."

Damn, thanks again bonzelite!
It kind of scares me to possibly lose my
source of income.
But I think I will.

Tokes at uga, it was kind of funny how much graphic design and drawing - painting majors hated each other.
They were in seperate buildings on different parts of campus. Only time I ever went over there was to take some of the elementary art classes and advanced art history classes. I think they saw us as soul - less sellouts
and we joked that they were a bunch of nonworking alcoholics. But honestly, I guess most art is commercial in this country. I can say this - their bathroom graffiti was much more thought provoking and creative than ours. :)
Maybe they were better than us.....

what i don't comprehend about colleges is that the coveted and worshipped "renaissance" was all about an awakening in mankind's awareness of the world. yes, da vinci was not the only one doing science and art. there were many many many. and this is exactly my point: there was a blurring of the disciplines centuries ago. so all of the animostiy and hatred and miscommunication between college campus departments is beyond me, but probably attributable to the basic age-old crap about any bureaucracy: turf and job-protection at the expense of efficiency. divisions in that context, like the government sector for example, create "validity" among each department, as each compartment fights for it's life to stay "alive."

the victims in this case are often the students, as they exit the institution and try to melt back into society -- as a prisoner who has been freed. the student finds out quickly that the world of global capitalism does not have the same set of expectations and parameters as student life does. ie, you are not entitled to a "degree," or safe passage, or a job, or anything in particular, just because you have "studied."

often, you must fend for yourself, doing anything possible, to stay alive. often doing things that have nothing at all to do with anything that you have ever been familiar with. and this is why college, particularly a liberal arts college, is practically useless to prepare you for anything commercial.
(even though i went to a liberal arts college, and had fun)

grant, LOL!! do what you really know is right. and if you really do quit, then that is funny as hell!!!

did someone say "UGA"? as in Georgia? i went to KSU!! in Marietta, GA!!

Yep! :grinyes:
The dawgs took my money and gave me a
piece of paper that helped land the glamorous
screenprint job that I now have.
And I still owe em money.

i did have fun in college, but what i do today bears little resemblance to what i did in college. for the arts, often, college will not really deliver you to your ultimate path.

a trade school is more likely to help you professionally.

something else to consider, grant: look at the highest possible position at the screenprinting slavery job, and ask a question to yourself: do i want that position? if the answer is "no," then get the F44344@%@$k out soon as you can. typically, these small businesses that hire underlings offer you nothing. will you be able to buy a home on the income from that job? will you be able to support children at that job? if the answer is "no," then get out of there as soon as humanly possible.

if screen printing and design for that venue is your passion, strive to start your own thing. and then you can hire slaves of your own. maybe even buy out the guy whom you currently work for, delivering poetic justice where it is due.:biggrin:

I have had enough of screen printing to say that the
answer to each of those questions is no.
It seems way too limiting as a medium.
I do realize that it is a slave job and there is no future in it at all.
And I have been in neutral for years.
Still waiting though, to find what I am good at before I try and
tear outta here. I am waiting for something to click that lets me know
that I am following the right path. I know that it might never happen
but I feel that if I try hard enough at improving - I will be able to land a
job that does not qualify as sweatshop labor doing something that I don't hate.

grant, search your feelings like darth vadar said to luke skywalker. luke knew darth vadar was his father when he searched his feelings. he did not like it, but he knew it to be true.

the same thing can apply to our own truths. i know it is "never too late" to begin your life. i wasted years of my life doing things that were not really "me." and i may have been farther along in my path had i heeded my true inner desires. but i was held back by fear.

grant, right now, ask yourself, if you could end up doing something, regardless of the practicality of money as a hurdle, what would you do?

even if it seems crazy or undo-able, that is the truth for you. it is never too late, yes. as tokes said. that is true.

but the longer you wait, the more you will look back in regret. i am telling you.

staying in bumf#$K georgia is one safe but miserable existence. i swear to you that is true. i came from there. i was raised in kennesaw and marietta --great places to raise kids and grow up, bad places to pursue a career in art. that is just one part of it. but i am biased. you may have family, friends, everything in georgia. but are they going to fulfill your dreams? you can always get a plane ticket and visit them.

I really appreciate all of your help and support bonzelite,
your advice and experience is worth so much. You are dead on in your assessment of my life. I appreciate your encouragement .

I really appreciate all of your help and support bonzelite,
your advice and experience is worth so much. You are dead on in your assessment of my life. I appreciate your encouragement .

my pleasure. sometimes drawing is not really about drawing. but it is.
and it brings out our vulnerabilities and fears. as well as our strengths.

you're a talented man, and i hope you honor that by treating yourself to a lifestyle that is really more about who you are as a person.

i'm not religious, by any means. but spiritual:

from the gnostic gospel of thomas: "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."

Man bonzelite I like to read and think about your replies.
That one is the deepest yet. That kind of thought will bother me over time.
If anything, my time now is very peaceful and secure.
Eventhough I don't have a car I make enough to save some money and I
have alot of free time to draw stuff. I do about 2 jobs a day and get a 300 dollar check a week. I am poor but I pay my bills and dont have to deal with atlanta or la traffic. To me that is worth alot. I am really going to talk seriously with my boss about the money thing and discuss how much money I am making him. On the plus side, I work from home and it is a cool thing! But I know I will feel some serious regret when I am making 20k a year when I am 40.
Maybe I can rationalize the capitalist thing away by becoming a buddhist. :)
And learn to let go of everything material. Nah....I am gonna get a skyline before I die dammit! :)


I also like the american beauty take on life and jobs. Lester wasn't happy untill he told his boss to shove it and started working at krusty burger. :)
I think that is where I am now, the krusty burger of art jobs. I think I kind of dig being way over qualified. Less stress. Less money. More free time.
I will live longer but will be less fulfilled.Life is a compromise for slackers like I am. :) (just look at all of those smiley's I might be doing alright)