The questions of water injection....
Omega_5
04-20-2005, 07:10 PM
I;m not sure if this has been posted before, but it's a good idea. I've found that there are alot of people who are quite new to the idea of water injection... actually alot of people seem to think that spraying water into and engine will kill it.
Well, water injection is normally used by Talon/Eclipse/Laser owners running high boost. The theory of it is that it decreases knocking in an engine. (Foe those that don't know), knocking is the pre-detination of fuel in an engine, usually from heat or compression. Water can be injected into the engine to lower the detination point of the fuel being used. Now keep in mind that running higher octance fuel also lowers detination (due to the lower det. point).
Now the method i will describe, as stated above, is commonly used on Eagle Talons. I have seen many variations on this set-up, but prefer the design my friend made (and i helped install).
After the turbocharger(s), air flow meter (MAF/MAP) and throttle body in a car, there is a plenum, or pressure air box before the engine. In this air box, you must drill a hole and fit an screw in an injector, keep in mind that the air box must remain air tight and that the injector must spray in a manner that will allow the water to be carried into the engine. A pump (a fuel pump works ok) must feed the injector with water at a certain pressure level. A tubing system must be ran a tank (to hold the water) to the pump, and to the injector. Remember that the tubing MUST be resistant to rust (there will be water running through is tube). Now a boost sensor should be hooked up within the intake system, so that when your car reached a high boost level, (just below the stock max) your water injection system will turn on (you don't want water being sprayed into the engine at an idle). As a saftey measure, the knock sensor on the car should be hooked up to a pressure valve, which will open the BOV on your turbo(s) if detenation occurs. The reason for this, is that if debri is caught in the injector, you car will run VERY lean, and cause damage to your engine, especially if your will be running high boost.
There are websites that give more detailed descriptions of this procedure. If you are serious about installing this sytem, please consult those websites first.
A variation to this, is running two injectors. For example, my buddy has his first injector turn on at 8psi, and the second turn on at 14psi. So until 8psi he runs no water, from 8psi til 14 psi he runs one injector, and from 14psi to 17psi (his max) he runs two injectors.
This is an easy and cheap modification to any boosted car. Keep in mind though, that if you plan in running high boost, you fuel pump and fuel deliverly system should still be upgraded, and that you shouldn't run you turbo at overkill. This is mainly for if you want power from pump gas.
Well, water injection is normally used by Talon/Eclipse/Laser owners running high boost. The theory of it is that it decreases knocking in an engine. (Foe those that don't know), knocking is the pre-detination of fuel in an engine, usually from heat or compression. Water can be injected into the engine to lower the detination point of the fuel being used. Now keep in mind that running higher octance fuel also lowers detination (due to the lower det. point).
Now the method i will describe, as stated above, is commonly used on Eagle Talons. I have seen many variations on this set-up, but prefer the design my friend made (and i helped install).
After the turbocharger(s), air flow meter (MAF/MAP) and throttle body in a car, there is a plenum, or pressure air box before the engine. In this air box, you must drill a hole and fit an screw in an injector, keep in mind that the air box must remain air tight and that the injector must spray in a manner that will allow the water to be carried into the engine. A pump (a fuel pump works ok) must feed the injector with water at a certain pressure level. A tubing system must be ran a tank (to hold the water) to the pump, and to the injector. Remember that the tubing MUST be resistant to rust (there will be water running through is tube). Now a boost sensor should be hooked up within the intake system, so that when your car reached a high boost level, (just below the stock max) your water injection system will turn on (you don't want water being sprayed into the engine at an idle). As a saftey measure, the knock sensor on the car should be hooked up to a pressure valve, which will open the BOV on your turbo(s) if detenation occurs. The reason for this, is that if debri is caught in the injector, you car will run VERY lean, and cause damage to your engine, especially if your will be running high boost.
There are websites that give more detailed descriptions of this procedure. If you are serious about installing this sytem, please consult those websites first.
A variation to this, is running two injectors. For example, my buddy has his first injector turn on at 8psi, and the second turn on at 14psi. So until 8psi he runs no water, from 8psi til 14 psi he runs one injector, and from 14psi to 17psi (his max) he runs two injectors.
This is an easy and cheap modification to any boosted car. Keep in mind though, that if you plan in running high boost, you fuel pump and fuel deliverly system should still be upgraded, and that you shouldn't run you turbo at overkill. This is mainly for if you want power from pump gas.
Sluttypatton
04-20-2005, 08:33 PM
I personally dislike water injection for most applications. I think it is just a band aid for an improperly set up car. I admit that there are cases where maximum effort cars are properly set up and they make use of water injection to squeeze out a little extra detonation tolerance, and I don't have a problem with that. I just object to many people installing water injection systems rather than doing the job properly.
You have an interesting post, but I think it would be a good idea to correct a few little details.
Water injection works by decreasing the charge air temperature. Water has a fairly high specific heat (4.184 J/(g *C)) meaning that it removes a large amount of thermal energy from the charge air while only changing temperature slightly it's self. This makes it great for cooling the charge air, but a properly sized intercooler is a better alternative.
If debris were to get caught in the water injector, the engine would not run lean as the injector is not responsible for delivering any of the engines required fuel supply, it only delivers atomized water to cool the charge air. The air/fuel ratio would remain identical to what it previously was and any resulting detonation would be due to the hotter charge air rather than an improper a/f ratio.
You have an interesting post, but I think it would be a good idea to correct a few little details.
Water injection works by decreasing the charge air temperature. Water has a fairly high specific heat (4.184 J/(g *C)) meaning that it removes a large amount of thermal energy from the charge air while only changing temperature slightly it's self. This makes it great for cooling the charge air, but a properly sized intercooler is a better alternative.
If debris were to get caught in the water injector, the engine would not run lean as the injector is not responsible for delivering any of the engines required fuel supply, it only delivers atomized water to cool the charge air. The air/fuel ratio would remain identical to what it previously was and any resulting detonation would be due to the hotter charge air rather than an improper a/f ratio.
Omega_5
04-21-2005, 02:39 AM
thanks for the additions.
I should also add that using a blend of alchol and water (aka windshield washer fluid...lol), in some case is a better idea. The link below leads to a discussion on that topic.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=396368
I should also add that using a blend of alchol and water (aka windshield washer fluid...lol), in some case is a better idea. The link below leads to a discussion on that topic.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=396368
guitarXgeek
04-21-2005, 06:33 PM
I'm pasting my post from the DSM forums about water injection in here as well...
Oh boy, so much information about water injection (WI from now on) that it'd take a couple pages to get most of it down I guess I'll start off by just laying out some of the basic concepts/ideas/reasons behind WI.
First off, I'd like to mention that WI has been around for a LONG time. The turbo buick guys I think started the whole WI thing way back in the day, and for good reason too. Since water cools so incredibly well (hence the reason you use it partly as coolant for the motor ), it has the ability to almost completely eliminate knock/detonation caused from excessive heat in the combustion chamber - which happens to be the main cause for detonation in turbocharged motors.
Also, the continuous use of water injection actually cleans the entire intake stream, the valve tops, and the combustion chamber. I'm sure some of you have heard of people using Seafoam to clean the carbon out of the combustion chamber, right? Well, before Seafoam came about, people used small amounts of water to clean the carbon build-up in the combustion chamber. I don't know exactly what property of water allows this to happen, but it works VERY well. So not only do you get the benefits of hardcore knock suppression, you can rest assured that there are no carbon hot-spots inside the combustion chamber causing knock/detonation
The whole reason WI works so well with turbocharged vehicles is water's latent heat properties. Basically, water absorbs heat extremely well, especially upon evaporization. A small nozzle is placed somewhere along the intake path on the intercooler piping. A common place is roughly 6-10" or so from the throttle body. Now, remember that the temperature of the charged air can reach well over 250 degrees F. The water is injected into the intercooler piping via the small nozzle (which is sized to the amount of fuel available, usually %15 of the total amount of fuel available). The water is sprayed into an ultra-fine mist and almost IMMEDIATELY it is evaporated by the hot charge air. Now water's latent heat of evaporization comes into play. As the water hits the intake stream, massive amounts of heat is absorbed by the water and is almost immediately taken away as the water evaporates. Thus, a MUCH MUCH cooler intake charge!
As for me, I plan to take FULL advantage of this wonderful idea and use a two-nozzle water injection system on my GSX. I actually plan to put a very small nozzle just before the intercooler (the stock SMIC) and a larger one pre-throttle body. My reasoning for keeping the stock SMIC is for the sleeper look, as well as the whole money issue The only thing limiting me on the stock SMIC then would be the airflow restriction of that POS.
I'm sure you're wondering why I opted for a small nozzle pre-intercooler, since that would effectively reduce the entire purpose of the intercooler. However, since the stock SMIC likes to heat soak extrememly quick, the small amount of water injected just before it will keep the heatsoak to an absolute minimum! I even know of people in extremely hot climates that use a small nozzle just before their front-mount intercooler just to help combat heat soak.
Another popular thing to do is for people to inject is a mix of water and alcohol (methanol, to be exact). The magic % from what I've read is 25% water and 75% methanol. The reason for using methanol is it's ability to compensate for low-octane fuel. Methanol in itself has the ability to effectively "raise" the overall octane of fuel mixture (it doesn't literally raise the octane, but it has the same effect) allowing you to lean out a little more and raise the boost a little more. It's kinda the same effect as running "race gas" all the time. Another reason is that methanol has much better combustable properties than water, which is why a good mix of the two is pure sex. You get the heat reduction properties from water, and the "octane raising" properties from methanol. I've seen some results from users on the dsmlink forums, and I'm further impressed each time I see results!
The one downfall to methanol is that it is quite corrosive, so extra care must be taken with regard to the pump, container, and lines. I should also note that only distilled water and/or "smurf piss" (winshield washer fluid - 49% water, 49% methanol, 2% blue dye) should be used for water injection. I have heard, though, that the smurf piss has a tendency to clog the nozzles.
There is a LOT more information about water injection out there, especially on dsmtuners.com. But I think it would be good to get a base of information on here, though. I think I just covered the tip of the iceberg, so someone else may chime in if they like
Here are some links to a couple vendors that sell nothing but water injection kits. Lots of good information there..
www.coolingmist.com
www.aquamist.co.uk/
-Matt
P.S. Here is a thread on dsmtuners.com that shows the wonderful results of pure water injection... http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41303
Oh boy, so much information about water injection (WI from now on) that it'd take a couple pages to get most of it down I guess I'll start off by just laying out some of the basic concepts/ideas/reasons behind WI.
First off, I'd like to mention that WI has been around for a LONG time. The turbo buick guys I think started the whole WI thing way back in the day, and for good reason too. Since water cools so incredibly well (hence the reason you use it partly as coolant for the motor ), it has the ability to almost completely eliminate knock/detonation caused from excessive heat in the combustion chamber - which happens to be the main cause for detonation in turbocharged motors.
Also, the continuous use of water injection actually cleans the entire intake stream, the valve tops, and the combustion chamber. I'm sure some of you have heard of people using Seafoam to clean the carbon out of the combustion chamber, right? Well, before Seafoam came about, people used small amounts of water to clean the carbon build-up in the combustion chamber. I don't know exactly what property of water allows this to happen, but it works VERY well. So not only do you get the benefits of hardcore knock suppression, you can rest assured that there are no carbon hot-spots inside the combustion chamber causing knock/detonation
The whole reason WI works so well with turbocharged vehicles is water's latent heat properties. Basically, water absorbs heat extremely well, especially upon evaporization. A small nozzle is placed somewhere along the intake path on the intercooler piping. A common place is roughly 6-10" or so from the throttle body. Now, remember that the temperature of the charged air can reach well over 250 degrees F. The water is injected into the intercooler piping via the small nozzle (which is sized to the amount of fuel available, usually %15 of the total amount of fuel available). The water is sprayed into an ultra-fine mist and almost IMMEDIATELY it is evaporated by the hot charge air. Now water's latent heat of evaporization comes into play. As the water hits the intake stream, massive amounts of heat is absorbed by the water and is almost immediately taken away as the water evaporates. Thus, a MUCH MUCH cooler intake charge!
As for me, I plan to take FULL advantage of this wonderful idea and use a two-nozzle water injection system on my GSX. I actually plan to put a very small nozzle just before the intercooler (the stock SMIC) and a larger one pre-throttle body. My reasoning for keeping the stock SMIC is for the sleeper look, as well as the whole money issue The only thing limiting me on the stock SMIC then would be the airflow restriction of that POS.
I'm sure you're wondering why I opted for a small nozzle pre-intercooler, since that would effectively reduce the entire purpose of the intercooler. However, since the stock SMIC likes to heat soak extrememly quick, the small amount of water injected just before it will keep the heatsoak to an absolute minimum! I even know of people in extremely hot climates that use a small nozzle just before their front-mount intercooler just to help combat heat soak.
Another popular thing to do is for people to inject is a mix of water and alcohol (methanol, to be exact). The magic % from what I've read is 25% water and 75% methanol. The reason for using methanol is it's ability to compensate for low-octane fuel. Methanol in itself has the ability to effectively "raise" the overall octane of fuel mixture (it doesn't literally raise the octane, but it has the same effect) allowing you to lean out a little more and raise the boost a little more. It's kinda the same effect as running "race gas" all the time. Another reason is that methanol has much better combustable properties than water, which is why a good mix of the two is pure sex. You get the heat reduction properties from water, and the "octane raising" properties from methanol. I've seen some results from users on the dsmlink forums, and I'm further impressed each time I see results!
The one downfall to methanol is that it is quite corrosive, so extra care must be taken with regard to the pump, container, and lines. I should also note that only distilled water and/or "smurf piss" (winshield washer fluid - 49% water, 49% methanol, 2% blue dye) should be used for water injection. I have heard, though, that the smurf piss has a tendency to clog the nozzles.
There is a LOT more information about water injection out there, especially on dsmtuners.com. But I think it would be good to get a base of information on here, though. I think I just covered the tip of the iceberg, so someone else may chime in if they like
Here are some links to a couple vendors that sell nothing but water injection kits. Lots of good information there..
www.coolingmist.com
www.aquamist.co.uk/
-Matt
P.S. Here is a thread on dsmtuners.com that shows the wonderful results of pure water injection... http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41303
nissanfanatic
04-21-2005, 07:33 PM
I'm not a fan of WI either. I also agree its a band aid for an improper setup. I think I'd just upgrade my intercooler.
Omega_5
04-21-2005, 08:03 PM
thanks guitarXgeek for re-posting that bit of info... it's always good to have a second opinion...
guitarXgeek
04-21-2005, 08:43 PM
I'm not a fan of WI either. I also agree its a band aid for an improper setup. I think I'd just upgrade my intercooler.
That's a valid point, to an extent. You do realize that your typical air-to-air front-mount intercooler can only do so much cooling, right? I've witnessed FIRST HAND the results of water injection on a VERY well setup car equipped with a Spearco 2-216 core (arguably one of the best/most popular air-to-air cores on the market) and was throroughly shocked. Even this high quality bar/plate intercooler saw HUGE benefits from a water injection system. After adding a 50/50 methanol/water mix, the car ran EVEN BETTER. He was able to run a couple lbs more boost and 1-2 more degrees of timing advance on pump 93 octane. You call that a bandaid? Hah :) I call it smart.
You simply can not deny the large gains to be had from water/alcohol injection on any turbocharged car equipped with an air-to-air intercooler. The intercooler will only get so close to ambient temps, and the water injection can nail it on the head. There's a reason that the old turbo buick guys ran it back in the day, and it sure as hell wasn't as a "bandaid" ;) I can garauntee that ANY properly setup and tuned turbocharged motor will see dramatic gains from a water/alcohol injection system (assuming an air-to-air intercooler is used. the benefits are arguable on setups using water-to-air coolers).
You have If debris were to get caught in the water injector, the engine would not run lean as the injector is not responsible for delivering any of the engines required fuel supply, it only delivers atomized water to cool the charge air. The air/fuel ratio would remain identical to what it previously was and any resulting detonation would be due to the hotter charge air rather than an improper a/f ratio.
Good point, but A) Just about all water/alky injection systems out there include "Clogged nozzle LEDs" to let you know when the water is not being sprayed through the nozzle. Also, it's your duty as the owner of your car to do regular maintenance/checkups on your car. This is just another small thing to add to the list. If you set up your WI system properly, then no debris should even get near the nozzles, much less get in the system anywhere else. The only real way a nozzle could get clogged is if you happen to pick up a couple bad/contaminated gallons of distilled water. And honestly, I would be much more worried about quite a few other things failing on the car in the middle of a run. A slightly clogged water-injection nozzle would be near the end of my list of things to worry about :) I'd much rather have the WI nozzle clog than a fuel injector clog ;) You get the idea.
That's a valid point, to an extent. You do realize that your typical air-to-air front-mount intercooler can only do so much cooling, right? I've witnessed FIRST HAND the results of water injection on a VERY well setup car equipped with a Spearco 2-216 core (arguably one of the best/most popular air-to-air cores on the market) and was throroughly shocked. Even this high quality bar/plate intercooler saw HUGE benefits from a water injection system. After adding a 50/50 methanol/water mix, the car ran EVEN BETTER. He was able to run a couple lbs more boost and 1-2 more degrees of timing advance on pump 93 octane. You call that a bandaid? Hah :) I call it smart.
You simply can not deny the large gains to be had from water/alcohol injection on any turbocharged car equipped with an air-to-air intercooler. The intercooler will only get so close to ambient temps, and the water injection can nail it on the head. There's a reason that the old turbo buick guys ran it back in the day, and it sure as hell wasn't as a "bandaid" ;) I can garauntee that ANY properly setup and tuned turbocharged motor will see dramatic gains from a water/alcohol injection system (assuming an air-to-air intercooler is used. the benefits are arguable on setups using water-to-air coolers).
You have If debris were to get caught in the water injector, the engine would not run lean as the injector is not responsible for delivering any of the engines required fuel supply, it only delivers atomized water to cool the charge air. The air/fuel ratio would remain identical to what it previously was and any resulting detonation would be due to the hotter charge air rather than an improper a/f ratio.
Good point, but A) Just about all water/alky injection systems out there include "Clogged nozzle LEDs" to let you know when the water is not being sprayed through the nozzle. Also, it's your duty as the owner of your car to do regular maintenance/checkups on your car. This is just another small thing to add to the list. If you set up your WI system properly, then no debris should even get near the nozzles, much less get in the system anywhere else. The only real way a nozzle could get clogged is if you happen to pick up a couple bad/contaminated gallons of distilled water. And honestly, I would be much more worried about quite a few other things failing on the car in the middle of a run. A slightly clogged water-injection nozzle would be near the end of my list of things to worry about :) I'd much rather have the WI nozzle clog than a fuel injector clog ;) You get the idea.
nissanfanatic
04-21-2005, 11:10 PM
Nah, I wouldn't deny the positives. I'm just saying I don't like it.
Hypsi87
04-25-2005, 11:32 AM
I am not a fan of pure water injection but Alcohol injection is the way to go...
All water does is steam, it does not burn. Alcohol in the other hand has HP potential.
As far as upgrading an intercooler over alcohol injection... What intercooler do you konw of that you can run alot of timing and boost on 93 octane pump gas for under 500 bucks???
when I am not spraying alcohol I can only run about 19* of timing and 15 PSI of boost on stock heads and intercooler. With the alcohol injection, I am up to 24 degrees of timing and 25-26 lbs of boost.
Don't knock it untill you try it. Not only is Alcohol a naturall anti deatonate, it is a fuel.
Here is a very good FAQ about alcohol injection...
It is not a band-aid to cover up a problem. The problem is Pre deationation, and alcohol injection gets rid of it. it offers a great alternitive to buying 7-11 dollar a gallon race fuels to run the higher boost levels that we all want on the street.
All water does is steam, it does not burn. Alcohol in the other hand has HP potential.
As far as upgrading an intercooler over alcohol injection... What intercooler do you konw of that you can run alot of timing and boost on 93 octane pump gas for under 500 bucks???
when I am not spraying alcohol I can only run about 19* of timing and 15 PSI of boost on stock heads and intercooler. With the alcohol injection, I am up to 24 degrees of timing and 25-26 lbs of boost.
Don't knock it untill you try it. Not only is Alcohol a naturall anti deatonate, it is a fuel.
Here is a very good FAQ about alcohol injection...
It is not a band-aid to cover up a problem. The problem is Pre deationation, and alcohol injection gets rid of it. it offers a great alternitive to buying 7-11 dollar a gallon race fuels to run the higher boost levels that we all want on the street.
Hypsi87
04-25-2005, 11:41 AM
There's a reason that the old turbo buick guys ran it back in the day, and it sure as hell wasn't as a "bandaid" ;) I can garauntee that ANY properly setup and tuned turbocharged motor will see dramatic gains from a water/alcohol injection system (assuming an air-to-air intercooler is used. the benefits are arguable on setups using water-to-air coolers).
I resent that OLD TURBO BUICK GUYS remark... :icon16: Accually the turbo Buick guys have just recently goten into it in the past 4-5 years.
Personally I hope people don't catch on to alcohol injection and us Buick guys keep the advantage :iceslolan
I resent that OLD TURBO BUICK GUYS remark... :icon16: Accually the turbo Buick guys have just recently goten into it in the past 4-5 years.
Personally I hope people don't catch on to alcohol injection and us Buick guys keep the advantage :iceslolan
Sluttypatton
04-26-2005, 05:41 PM
when I am not spraying alcohol I can only run about 19* of timing and 15 PSI of boost on stock heads and intercooler. With the alcohol injection, I am up to 24 degrees of timing and 25-26 lbs of boost.
That would be one of the times where I think water or alcohol injection is a great idea. What I mean by a "band aid" is someone running relatively low boost and still needing water injection to avoid detonation.
That would be one of the times where I think water or alcohol injection is a great idea. What I mean by a "band aid" is someone running relatively low boost and still needing water injection to avoid detonation.
Hypsi87
04-26-2005, 08:03 PM
That would be one of the times where I think water or alcohol injection is a great idea. What I mean by a "band aid" is someone running relatively low boost and still needing water injection to avoid detonation.
ok yea I agree with you. you need the boost to support the injection
ok yea I agree with you. you need the boost to support the injection
Zgringo
04-27-2005, 07:43 PM
Mr. Hypsi87, Shudup, don't be telling these guys our secret. Let'em keep retarding there timing and running lower boost's so it don't make max power and can run on regular pump gas. And don't tell the guys that run spray that with W/A injection they don't have to retard the timing as much and have lessend the chance for a piston meltdown, due to hi-heat.
And for sure don't tell'em after a run with Alky spray you have frost on your intake manifold.
Keep'em in the dark and don't tell them that it's being used in all sorts of racing by top tuners.
And please don't tell them to call Kevin at Majestic Turbos (800-231-5566), one of the top turbo men and ask him why he runs alky injection in his engine.
Lets you and me an a few select keep our a secret.
And for sure don't tell'em after a run with Alky spray you have frost on your intake manifold.
Keep'em in the dark and don't tell them that it's being used in all sorts of racing by top tuners.
And please don't tell them to call Kevin at Majestic Turbos (800-231-5566), one of the top turbo men and ask him why he runs alky injection in his engine.
Lets you and me an a few select keep our a secret.
guitarXgeek
05-02-2005, 08:19 AM
I resent that OLD TURBO BUICK GUYS remark... :icon16: Accually the turbo Buick guys have just recently goten into it in the past 4-5 years.
Personally I hope people don't catch on to alcohol injection and us Buick guys keep the advantage :iceslolan
My bad, what I meant to say was those MODERATELY AGED TURBO BUICK GUYS ;) I'm glad you guys see the tremendous benefits of water/alky injection. I don't get the whole "band-aid" idea, in my book it just doesn't hold water (pun intended :icon16: ).
Personally I hope people don't catch on to alcohol injection and us Buick guys keep the advantage :iceslolan
My bad, what I meant to say was those MODERATELY AGED TURBO BUICK GUYS ;) I'm glad you guys see the tremendous benefits of water/alky injection. I don't get the whole "band-aid" idea, in my book it just doesn't hold water (pun intended :icon16: ).
Zgringo
05-02-2005, 02:11 PM
Ab Jakins in the Marmon Meteor in 1937 set a world record and was using water/alky injection. Then Germans and the USAF were using it also in 1939-????. I might also add they were using Nitrous.
Water/alky has been around alot longer than most of your Grandpa's. I learned it's use in the 40's from my mentor and friend Lou Meyer winner of the Indy 500 3 times.
As for being a band-aid, if anything is a band-aid the intercooler is. The IC was designed for lazy people, the ones who never checked there windshield washer fluid level.
We use to run over 5 bar (70#) boost to qualify, and 3.5 bar (50#) to race before IC were even invented. Try that with your IC equipped cars.
A fact is the IC has a 1.5-4 lb. loss in turbo outlet pressure. In other words it restricts the flow of air in the system.
Isn't it amazing we spend so much on free flowing heads, cams to enhanse our intake and exhaust flow, exotic exhaust systems to aid in removel of spent exhaust and hi-end turbo's only to install a IC that drops the turbo pressure 1.5-4 lbs.
What's really amazing is something that doesn't cause any loss in turbo pressure, and is proven to have more temp. droping ability than a IC, plus keeps the combustion chamber super clean, major temp. reducing abilities and lower EGT, and is called a band-aid for a improperly setup car. Even N/A engine benefit from chemical injection, as do low output turbo cars.
Hypsi, my hat's off to you for taking old technology and applying it to modern engineering. It's people like you that become winners and not the ones that poke fun because of there ignorance.
All of us (including me) are ignorance till we learn and are taught. If I can't pass on what I've learned to those wanting to learn, then I've failed and all my past is a waste.
Water/alky has been around alot longer than most of your Grandpa's. I learned it's use in the 40's from my mentor and friend Lou Meyer winner of the Indy 500 3 times.
As for being a band-aid, if anything is a band-aid the intercooler is. The IC was designed for lazy people, the ones who never checked there windshield washer fluid level.
We use to run over 5 bar (70#) boost to qualify, and 3.5 bar (50#) to race before IC were even invented. Try that with your IC equipped cars.
A fact is the IC has a 1.5-4 lb. loss in turbo outlet pressure. In other words it restricts the flow of air in the system.
Isn't it amazing we spend so much on free flowing heads, cams to enhanse our intake and exhaust flow, exotic exhaust systems to aid in removel of spent exhaust and hi-end turbo's only to install a IC that drops the turbo pressure 1.5-4 lbs.
What's really amazing is something that doesn't cause any loss in turbo pressure, and is proven to have more temp. droping ability than a IC, plus keeps the combustion chamber super clean, major temp. reducing abilities and lower EGT, and is called a band-aid for a improperly setup car. Even N/A engine benefit from chemical injection, as do low output turbo cars.
Hypsi, my hat's off to you for taking old technology and applying it to modern engineering. It's people like you that become winners and not the ones that poke fun because of there ignorance.
All of us (including me) are ignorance till we learn and are taught. If I can't pass on what I've learned to those wanting to learn, then I've failed and all my past is a waste.
Hypsi87
05-04-2005, 01:13 PM
My bad, what I meant to say was those MODERATELY AGED TURBO BUICK GUYS ;) I'm glad you guys see the tremendous benefits of water/alky injection. I don't get the whole "band-aid" idea, in my book it just doesn't hold water (pun intended :icon16: ).
HELL, even moderly aged turbo buick guys..... IM 22 LOL :icon16:
Zgringo, thanks for the hats off!! I have always felt that doing some research always helps. I usually don't try to make quick assumpsions on anything.
HELL, even moderly aged turbo buick guys..... IM 22 LOL :icon16:
Zgringo, thanks for the hats off!! I have always felt that doing some research always helps. I usually don't try to make quick assumpsions on anything.
SaabJohan
05-04-2005, 04:53 PM
1. Knocking is NOT the same as pre-ignition. The octane rating is the fuels resistance against knocking, but it has noting to do with pre- or post-ignition.
2. Water is the best coolant for water injection. Alcohol is sometimes added to prevent freezing of the water.
3. Water injection has serveral downsides.
4. An intercooler is a better choice than water injection (water injection is however not a real option to an intercooler). Intercoolers have been around since basicly the internal combustion engine was supercharged. Intercoolers was used on several of the WW2 airplanes, one manufacturer of these intercoolers (fitted to the Boeing B-17 for example) was Garrett which today is well known for their turbochargers. Low weight aluminum intercoolers where however Garretts first product back in the late 1930:ies. Intercoolers were of couse also used on the 5.5 bar boosted F1 engines of the eigties.
Water injection, as a separate liquid or emulsion with gasoline, or as a
vapour, has been thoroughly researched. If engines can calibrated to operate
with small amounts of water, knock can be suppressed, hydrocarbon emissions
will slightly increase, NOx emissions will decrease, CO does not change
significantly, and fuel and energy consumption are increased [113].
Water injection was used in WWII aviation engine to provide a large increase
in available power for very short periods. The injection of water does
decrease the dew point of the exhaust gases. This has potential corrosion
problems. The very high specific heat and heat of vaporisation of water
means that the combustion temperature will decrease. It has been shown that
a 10% water addition to methanol reduces the power and efficiency by about
3%, and doubles the unburnt fuel emissions, but does reduce NOx by 25% [114].
A decrease in combustion temperature will reduce the theoretical maximum
possible efficiency of an otto cycle engine that is operating correctly,
but may improve efficiency in engines that are experiencing abnormal
combustion on existing fuels.
Some aviation SI engines still use boost fluids. The water-methanol mixtures
are used to provide increased power for short periods, up to 40% more -
assuming adequate mechanical strength of the engine. The 40/60 or 45/55
water-methanol mixtures are used as boost fluids for aviation engines because
water would freeze. Methanol is just "preburnt" methane, consequently it only
has about half the energy content of gasoline, but it does have a higher heat
of vaporisation, which has a significant cooling effect on the charge.
Water-methanol blends are more cost-effective than gasoline for combustion
cooling. The high Sensitivity of alcohol fuels has to be considered in the
engine design and settings.
Boost fluids are used because they are far more economical than using the
fuel. When a supercharged engine has to be operated at high boost, the
mixture has to be enriched to keep the engine operating without knock. The
extra fuel cools the cylinder walls and the charge, thus delaying the onset
of knock which would otherwise occur at the associated higher temperatures.
The overall effect of boost fluid injection is to permit a considerable
increase in knock-free engine power for the same combustion chamber
temperature. The power increase is obtained from the higher allowable boost.
In practice, the fuel mixture is usually weakened when using boost fluid
injection, and the ratio of the two fuel fluids is approximately 100 parts
of avgas to 25 parts of boost fluid. With that ratio, the resulting
performance corresponds to an effective uprating of the fuel of about 25%,
irrespective of its original value. Trying to increase power boosting above
40% is difficult, as the engine can drown because of excessive liquid [110].
Note that for water injection to provide useful power gains, the engine
management and fuel systems must be able to monitor the knock and adjust
both stoichiometry and ignition to obtain significant benefits. Aviation
engines are designed to accommodate water injection, most automobile engines
are not. Returns on investment are usually harder to achieve on engines that
do not normal extend their performance envelope into those regions. Water
injection has been used by some engine manufacturers - usually as an
expedient way to maintain acceptable power after regulatory emissions
baggage was added to the engine, but usually the manufacturer quickly
produces a modified engine that does not require water injection.
Below a picture of the turbocharged BMW M12/13 F1 engine:
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/BMW%20Engine.jpg
The intercooler is the one on the left side and cools the pressurised air down to around 30-40 degrees celsius. Going lower than that just results in varporisation problems due to the fuel.
According to engine designer Paul Rosche they also tested to supress engine knock with water injection, fuel developements showed however greater results and the developements where then focused on fuels.
The laydown layout of the radiator and intercooler allows a small surface area with an effective cooling (you don't need a high flow velocity through the radiators).
2. Water is the best coolant for water injection. Alcohol is sometimes added to prevent freezing of the water.
3. Water injection has serveral downsides.
4. An intercooler is a better choice than water injection (water injection is however not a real option to an intercooler). Intercoolers have been around since basicly the internal combustion engine was supercharged. Intercoolers was used on several of the WW2 airplanes, one manufacturer of these intercoolers (fitted to the Boeing B-17 for example) was Garrett which today is well known for their turbochargers. Low weight aluminum intercoolers where however Garretts first product back in the late 1930:ies. Intercoolers were of couse also used on the 5.5 bar boosted F1 engines of the eigties.
Water injection, as a separate liquid or emulsion with gasoline, or as a
vapour, has been thoroughly researched. If engines can calibrated to operate
with small amounts of water, knock can be suppressed, hydrocarbon emissions
will slightly increase, NOx emissions will decrease, CO does not change
significantly, and fuel and energy consumption are increased [113].
Water injection was used in WWII aviation engine to provide a large increase
in available power for very short periods. The injection of water does
decrease the dew point of the exhaust gases. This has potential corrosion
problems. The very high specific heat and heat of vaporisation of water
means that the combustion temperature will decrease. It has been shown that
a 10% water addition to methanol reduces the power and efficiency by about
3%, and doubles the unburnt fuel emissions, but does reduce NOx by 25% [114].
A decrease in combustion temperature will reduce the theoretical maximum
possible efficiency of an otto cycle engine that is operating correctly,
but may improve efficiency in engines that are experiencing abnormal
combustion on existing fuels.
Some aviation SI engines still use boost fluids. The water-methanol mixtures
are used to provide increased power for short periods, up to 40% more -
assuming adequate mechanical strength of the engine. The 40/60 or 45/55
water-methanol mixtures are used as boost fluids for aviation engines because
water would freeze. Methanol is just "preburnt" methane, consequently it only
has about half the energy content of gasoline, but it does have a higher heat
of vaporisation, which has a significant cooling effect on the charge.
Water-methanol blends are more cost-effective than gasoline for combustion
cooling. The high Sensitivity of alcohol fuels has to be considered in the
engine design and settings.
Boost fluids are used because they are far more economical than using the
fuel. When a supercharged engine has to be operated at high boost, the
mixture has to be enriched to keep the engine operating without knock. The
extra fuel cools the cylinder walls and the charge, thus delaying the onset
of knock which would otherwise occur at the associated higher temperatures.
The overall effect of boost fluid injection is to permit a considerable
increase in knock-free engine power for the same combustion chamber
temperature. The power increase is obtained from the higher allowable boost.
In practice, the fuel mixture is usually weakened when using boost fluid
injection, and the ratio of the two fuel fluids is approximately 100 parts
of avgas to 25 parts of boost fluid. With that ratio, the resulting
performance corresponds to an effective uprating of the fuel of about 25%,
irrespective of its original value. Trying to increase power boosting above
40% is difficult, as the engine can drown because of excessive liquid [110].
Note that for water injection to provide useful power gains, the engine
management and fuel systems must be able to monitor the knock and adjust
both stoichiometry and ignition to obtain significant benefits. Aviation
engines are designed to accommodate water injection, most automobile engines
are not. Returns on investment are usually harder to achieve on engines that
do not normal extend their performance envelope into those regions. Water
injection has been used by some engine manufacturers - usually as an
expedient way to maintain acceptable power after regulatory emissions
baggage was added to the engine, but usually the manufacturer quickly
produces a modified engine that does not require water injection.
Below a picture of the turbocharged BMW M12/13 F1 engine:
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/BMW%20Engine.jpg
The intercooler is the one on the left side and cools the pressurised air down to around 30-40 degrees celsius. Going lower than that just results in varporisation problems due to the fuel.
According to engine designer Paul Rosche they also tested to supress engine knock with water injection, fuel developements showed however greater results and the developements where then focused on fuels.
The laydown layout of the radiator and intercooler allows a small surface area with an effective cooling (you don't need a high flow velocity through the radiators).
Zgringo
05-04-2005, 06:28 PM
SaabJohan,
As I have a ATP in Airplane Single engine land and sea, Airplane Multiengine land and sea, Rotorcraft Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter.
A&P licence
Certified IA
Masters degree in Aeronautical Engineering & Metallurgy
and having been a research engineer for Wright & Patterson engine lab in Dayton, Ohio I find your comments interisting and wonder where you have found this information and what you base your theory on.
The main reason Aircraft only used water/alky injection for short periods is it was only needed for takeoffs under heavy loads or for high power settings for climbing higher quickly to avoid ground fire or enemy aircraft. The inter cooler was used because not enough water/alky fluid could be hauled aboard the aircraft as it is with the F1 racing engines. Intercoolers were used in F1 cars as not enough water/alky could be hauled onboard without affecting the weight of the car.
Now for what were talking about is a street car or a car used for dragracing, where 2 gals. well be more than enough to last for a tank of gasoline.
you've posted some figures that just don't hold water.
Both in racing as well as the avation industry it's a proven fact, not theory that water/alky injection is one of the best ways to control inlet temp. and increase power in a engine.
Please so I (we) can research your claims were you found this information.
As I have a ATP in Airplane Single engine land and sea, Airplane Multiengine land and sea, Rotorcraft Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter.
A&P licence
Certified IA
Masters degree in Aeronautical Engineering & Metallurgy
and having been a research engineer for Wright & Patterson engine lab in Dayton, Ohio I find your comments interisting and wonder where you have found this information and what you base your theory on.
The main reason Aircraft only used water/alky injection for short periods is it was only needed for takeoffs under heavy loads or for high power settings for climbing higher quickly to avoid ground fire or enemy aircraft. The inter cooler was used because not enough water/alky fluid could be hauled aboard the aircraft as it is with the F1 racing engines. Intercoolers were used in F1 cars as not enough water/alky could be hauled onboard without affecting the weight of the car.
Now for what were talking about is a street car or a car used for dragracing, where 2 gals. well be more than enough to last for a tank of gasoline.
you've posted some figures that just don't hold water.
Both in racing as well as the avation industry it's a proven fact, not theory that water/alky injection is one of the best ways to control inlet temp. and increase power in a engine.
Please so I (we) can research your claims were you found this information.
SaabJohan
05-04-2005, 08:13 PM
My quote is from:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
Which in turn have several references about water injection.
The info about the turbocharged F1 engines comes from interviews with BMW's Paul Rosche but also from technical papers from for example Honda and Garrett and articles by Ian Bamsey.
That water is the best coolant is simple to find out by comparing the specifications on water, methanol, ethanol and so on.
That knocking and pre-, and postignitions isn't the same thing one should be able to read anywhere from Bosch Automotive Handbook to Heislers Advanced Engine Technology. It should even be possible to find that out by reading the history of Kettering, Midgley and TEL.
The amount of fuel an engine can burn is limited by the amount of oxygen. With a given engine the amount of oxygen availible will be dependant on the oxygen content in the air (basicly air pressure). If we use an intercooler to cool the air we will only have air in the stream but if we use water to reach the same temperature we will also have some steam taking up place since most of the cooling is done by the heat of vaporisation.
With water, some cooling (most?) will also occur in the combustion chamber and thereby not having a positive effect on the volumetric efficiency but only on engine knock while an intercooler will only cool the charge and not directly supressing engine knock. With that given, water injection isn't a real option to an intercooler which is also probably why WRC cars use both intercoolers and water injection. In WRC the intercooler cools the charge, which can't of course go below ambient, then the water injection decrease the temperature further a bit, but it isn't that much, it do however supress engine knock effectivly and also reduce exhaust temperature making life a little bit easier for the turbine (exhaust temperature is still 1050 degC).
Saab Powertrain have also tested waterinjection (windshield washer fluid), but that wasn't as a intercooler replacement, it was more like an option to fuel enrichment at high loads.
In short the intercooler can be said to increase the oxygen content of the charge while the water injection primarily supress engine knock but it can also cool the charge at the cost of some water vapor. Water injection can be replaced by fuel injection, but the cooling effect from fuel is usually less than from water. The knock supressing funcion of the water can be replaced with higher octane fuel.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
Which in turn have several references about water injection.
The info about the turbocharged F1 engines comes from interviews with BMW's Paul Rosche but also from technical papers from for example Honda and Garrett and articles by Ian Bamsey.
That water is the best coolant is simple to find out by comparing the specifications on water, methanol, ethanol and so on.
That knocking and pre-, and postignitions isn't the same thing one should be able to read anywhere from Bosch Automotive Handbook to Heislers Advanced Engine Technology. It should even be possible to find that out by reading the history of Kettering, Midgley and TEL.
The amount of fuel an engine can burn is limited by the amount of oxygen. With a given engine the amount of oxygen availible will be dependant on the oxygen content in the air (basicly air pressure). If we use an intercooler to cool the air we will only have air in the stream but if we use water to reach the same temperature we will also have some steam taking up place since most of the cooling is done by the heat of vaporisation.
With water, some cooling (most?) will also occur in the combustion chamber and thereby not having a positive effect on the volumetric efficiency but only on engine knock while an intercooler will only cool the charge and not directly supressing engine knock. With that given, water injection isn't a real option to an intercooler which is also probably why WRC cars use both intercoolers and water injection. In WRC the intercooler cools the charge, which can't of course go below ambient, then the water injection decrease the temperature further a bit, but it isn't that much, it do however supress engine knock effectivly and also reduce exhaust temperature making life a little bit easier for the turbine (exhaust temperature is still 1050 degC).
Saab Powertrain have also tested waterinjection (windshield washer fluid), but that wasn't as a intercooler replacement, it was more like an option to fuel enrichment at high loads.
In short the intercooler can be said to increase the oxygen content of the charge while the water injection primarily supress engine knock but it can also cool the charge at the cost of some water vapor. Water injection can be replaced by fuel injection, but the cooling effect from fuel is usually less than from water. The knock supressing funcion of the water can be replaced with higher octane fuel.
nissanfanatic
05-04-2005, 10:46 PM
Thanks for your input saabjohan. I'm glad to hear someone else agrees with me.
Zgringo
05-04-2005, 11:47 PM
SaabJohan,
Fact is Honda's big secret was they were using rocket fuel (toluene) and water injection to develop over 1,000HP per liter in there race cars.
As for a water/alky injected engine getting less oxygen because of the present of the water/alky in the inlet stream is absurd. A N/A 300 Cu. In. engine well take in only so much oxygen bearing air unless the air is being compressed by mechanical means. The water/alky present in this air stream cools the air, making a denser air with more oxygen. Anytime you cool air it becomes denser meaning it takes less space therefor more oxygen bearing air can be stuffed into a engine, and buy adding more fuel , make more power.
your trying to quote from old theory's that have been proven wrong and replaced with modern technology and facts not personal feelings.
Now if you'd like i'd be more than happy to setup a dyno test with the same engine being used for all testing and the turbo set at 20# boost, with and without water/alky injection and prove which will make the most power. Loser pays for the dyno time.
Thats the bottom line.
Fact is Honda's big secret was they were using rocket fuel (toluene) and water injection to develop over 1,000HP per liter in there race cars.
As for a water/alky injected engine getting less oxygen because of the present of the water/alky in the inlet stream is absurd. A N/A 300 Cu. In. engine well take in only so much oxygen bearing air unless the air is being compressed by mechanical means. The water/alky present in this air stream cools the air, making a denser air with more oxygen. Anytime you cool air it becomes denser meaning it takes less space therefor more oxygen bearing air can be stuffed into a engine, and buy adding more fuel , make more power.
your trying to quote from old theory's that have been proven wrong and replaced with modern technology and facts not personal feelings.
Now if you'd like i'd be more than happy to setup a dyno test with the same engine being used for all testing and the turbo set at 20# boost, with and without water/alky injection and prove which will make the most power. Loser pays for the dyno time.
Thats the bottom line.
SaabJohan
05-05-2005, 02:51 PM
SaabJohan,
Fact is Honda's big secret was they were using rocket fuel (toluene) and water injection to develop over 1,000HP per liter in there race cars.
As for a water/alky injected engine getting less oxygen because of the present of the water/alky in the inlet stream is absurd. A N/A 300 Cu. In. engine well take in only so much oxygen bearing air unless the air is being compressed by mechanical means. The water/alky present in this air stream cools the air, making a denser air with more oxygen. Anytime you cool air it becomes denser meaning it takes less space therefor more oxygen bearing air can be stuffed into a engine, and buy adding more fuel , make more power.
your trying to quote from old theory's that have been proven wrong and replaced with modern technology and facts not personal feelings.
Now if you'd like i'd be more than happy to setup a dyno test with the same engine being used for all testing and the turbo set at 20# boost, with and without water/alky injection and prove which will make the most power. Loser pays for the dyno time.
Thats the bottom line.
Toluene isn't rocketfuel (one old myth that never seems to die).
The Racingfuel Honda used did contain 84% toluene and 16% n-heptane. The fuel was developed by Honda together with ELF for F1. They did not use water injection, but they did however use two air to air intercoolers.
When you add water to the airflow there will be water in in, as water vaporise it will cool the charge but the steam will also take up some place (as there is a huge expansion when the water goes from liquid to steam). If the water do not vaprise before entering the cylinder the cooling effect will be small and the charge won't be that much denser. This is just plain thermodynamics which you can't escape from, no matter what.
The reason for the higher power made by the engine which has water injection is mainly because the water supress engine knock and the engine can therefore be optimised for a higher power output with for example higher boost or more ignition advance. Just like ERL, the supplier of waterinjection systems for the Prodrive-Subaru WRC team, states on their homepage:
The main function of these systems
is to suppress detonation caused by
high temperature and pressure developed
within the combustion chamber when
the effective compression ratio has
been taken beyond the auto-ignition point
by either a turbo or a supercharger.
Fact is Honda's big secret was they were using rocket fuel (toluene) and water injection to develop over 1,000HP per liter in there race cars.
As for a water/alky injected engine getting less oxygen because of the present of the water/alky in the inlet stream is absurd. A N/A 300 Cu. In. engine well take in only so much oxygen bearing air unless the air is being compressed by mechanical means. The water/alky present in this air stream cools the air, making a denser air with more oxygen. Anytime you cool air it becomes denser meaning it takes less space therefor more oxygen bearing air can be stuffed into a engine, and buy adding more fuel , make more power.
your trying to quote from old theory's that have been proven wrong and replaced with modern technology and facts not personal feelings.
Now if you'd like i'd be more than happy to setup a dyno test with the same engine being used for all testing and the turbo set at 20# boost, with and without water/alky injection and prove which will make the most power. Loser pays for the dyno time.
Thats the bottom line.
Toluene isn't rocketfuel (one old myth that never seems to die).
The Racingfuel Honda used did contain 84% toluene and 16% n-heptane. The fuel was developed by Honda together with ELF for F1. They did not use water injection, but they did however use two air to air intercoolers.
When you add water to the airflow there will be water in in, as water vaporise it will cool the charge but the steam will also take up some place (as there is a huge expansion when the water goes from liquid to steam). If the water do not vaprise before entering the cylinder the cooling effect will be small and the charge won't be that much denser. This is just plain thermodynamics which you can't escape from, no matter what.
The reason for the higher power made by the engine which has water injection is mainly because the water supress engine knock and the engine can therefore be optimised for a higher power output with for example higher boost or more ignition advance. Just like ERL, the supplier of waterinjection systems for the Prodrive-Subaru WRC team, states on their homepage:
The main function of these systems
is to suppress detonation caused by
high temperature and pressure developed
within the combustion chamber when
the effective compression ratio has
been taken beyond the auto-ignition point
by either a turbo or a supercharger.
Zgringo
05-05-2005, 04:15 PM
Toluene isn't rocketfuel (one old myth that never seems to die).
The Racingfuel Honda used did contain 84% toluene and 16% n-heptane. The fuel was developed by Honda together with ELF for F1. They did not use water injection, but they did however use two air to air intercoolers.
When you add water to the airflow there will be water in in, as water vaporise it will cool the charge but the steam will also take up some place (as there is a huge expansion when the water goes from liquid to steam). If the water do not vaprise before entering the cylinder the cooling effect will be small and the charge won't be that much denser. This is just plain thermodynamics which you can't escape from, no matter what.
The reason for the higher power made by the engine which has water injection is mainly because the water supress engine knock and the engine can therefore be optimised for a higher power output with for example higher boost or more ignition advance. Just like ERL, the supplier of waterinjection systems for the Prodrive-Subaru WRC team, states on their homepage:
Rocket fuel isn't a myth but a name for a fuel we were using at that time. Moths don't have balls, and i've never seen a housefly. There nothing but names attached to a thing, like golfballs, what's a golf?
As for Honda/ELF developing rocketfuel, sorry we were using it before Honda was a company. Honda's GP or F1 efforts didn't come into play till many years we were using toluene (paint thinner) as a base for racing fuel. And they did use water injection when qualifying with power settings above 5 bar as the IC couldn't handle the hot inlet air temp., but didn't use it for the race as they couldn't haul enough water.
Lets get this vapor, steam thing straight. First water will turn to vapor by evaporation, but to turn it to steam you need to apply 212F to the water.
Water injected into the intake air stream turns to vapor not steam as the tempature of the intake air isn't 212F. but this water vapor upon entering the combustion chamber, wow, lots of neat things happen.
It turns to steam because of the combustion chamber temp. it starts expanding very quickly, absorbing combustion chamber heat, steam cleans the combustion chamber, and assists the A/F mixture thats also building pressure on top of the piston make more power. Isn't that cool? Now we have a gas fired steam engine.
Because of the steam cleaning effect ( no carbon hot spots) and lower combustion chamber temps. We can now run more timing, more boost or for those using nitrous not have to run radical retarded timing and claim more power which is the name of the game.
Water/alky injection isn't a band-aid for a poorly setup engine, it's a power adder.
The Racingfuel Honda used did contain 84% toluene and 16% n-heptane. The fuel was developed by Honda together with ELF for F1. They did not use water injection, but they did however use two air to air intercoolers.
When you add water to the airflow there will be water in in, as water vaporise it will cool the charge but the steam will also take up some place (as there is a huge expansion when the water goes from liquid to steam). If the water do not vaprise before entering the cylinder the cooling effect will be small and the charge won't be that much denser. This is just plain thermodynamics which you can't escape from, no matter what.
The reason for the higher power made by the engine which has water injection is mainly because the water supress engine knock and the engine can therefore be optimised for a higher power output with for example higher boost or more ignition advance. Just like ERL, the supplier of waterinjection systems for the Prodrive-Subaru WRC team, states on their homepage:
Rocket fuel isn't a myth but a name for a fuel we were using at that time. Moths don't have balls, and i've never seen a housefly. There nothing but names attached to a thing, like golfballs, what's a golf?
As for Honda/ELF developing rocketfuel, sorry we were using it before Honda was a company. Honda's GP or F1 efforts didn't come into play till many years we were using toluene (paint thinner) as a base for racing fuel. And they did use water injection when qualifying with power settings above 5 bar as the IC couldn't handle the hot inlet air temp., but didn't use it for the race as they couldn't haul enough water.
Lets get this vapor, steam thing straight. First water will turn to vapor by evaporation, but to turn it to steam you need to apply 212F to the water.
Water injected into the intake air stream turns to vapor not steam as the tempature of the intake air isn't 212F. but this water vapor upon entering the combustion chamber, wow, lots of neat things happen.
It turns to steam because of the combustion chamber temp. it starts expanding very quickly, absorbing combustion chamber heat, steam cleans the combustion chamber, and assists the A/F mixture thats also building pressure on top of the piston make more power. Isn't that cool? Now we have a gas fired steam engine.
Because of the steam cleaning effect ( no carbon hot spots) and lower combustion chamber temps. We can now run more timing, more boost or for those using nitrous not have to run radical retarded timing and claim more power which is the name of the game.
Water/alky injection isn't a band-aid for a poorly setup engine, it's a power adder.
beef_bourito
05-06-2005, 08:12 AM
I'm just wondering, wouldn't the water add some compression to the engine? water doesn't compress so wouldn't that take up some space and compress the af ratio more than normally?
p.s. great info, i'm really enjoying this flame-free conversation
p.s. great info, i'm really enjoying this flame-free conversation
Zgringo
05-06-2005, 10:45 AM
I'm just wondering, wouldn't the water add some compression to the engine? water doesn't compress so wouldn't that take up some space and compress the af ratio more than normally?
p.s. great info, i'm really enjoying this flame-free conversation
Does gasoline compress? No liquid well compress.
p.s. great info, i'm really enjoying this flame-free conversation
Does gasoline compress? No liquid well compress.
beef_bourito
05-06-2005, 05:13 PM
but when you inject water into the cylender, aren't you cramming the same a/f into a smaller area thus increasing the compression and giving more power?
Zgringo
05-07-2005, 05:24 PM
but when you inject water into the cylender, aren't you cramming the same a/f into a smaller area thus increasing the compression and giving more power?
Lets see if we can see what effects compression ratio. A/F mixture and water/alky vapor don't seem to fit into the equasion. You think it's possible because it's negledgeable when it comes to the sweep volume of the cylinder and part of the mass air flow of the intake air? Nice point beef_bourito, glad you mentioned that.
Displacement = (Bore ÷ 2)2 x 3.14 x Stroke x 16.387
Head Gasket space = (Bore ÷ 2)2 x 3.14 x Gasket thickness x 16.387064
Deck Height space = (Bore ÷ 2)2 x 3.14 x Deck Height x 16.387064
Compressed Volume = Head Gasket space + Deck Height space +
Piston Top volume + Combustion chamber volume
Uncompressed Volume = Compressed Volume + Displacement
Compression Ratio = Uncompressed volume ÷ Compressed volume
http://img120.echo.cx/img120/983/compressionratio9aj.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)
Lets see if we can see what effects compression ratio. A/F mixture and water/alky vapor don't seem to fit into the equasion. You think it's possible because it's negledgeable when it comes to the sweep volume of the cylinder and part of the mass air flow of the intake air? Nice point beef_bourito, glad you mentioned that.
Displacement = (Bore ÷ 2)2 x 3.14 x Stroke x 16.387
Head Gasket space = (Bore ÷ 2)2 x 3.14 x Gasket thickness x 16.387064
Deck Height space = (Bore ÷ 2)2 x 3.14 x Deck Height x 16.387064
Compressed Volume = Head Gasket space + Deck Height space +
Piston Top volume + Combustion chamber volume
Uncompressed Volume = Compressed Volume + Displacement
Compression Ratio = Uncompressed volume ÷ Compressed volume
http://img120.echo.cx/img120/983/compressionratio9aj.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)
-Jayson-
05-08-2005, 11:40 AM
i thinky alky injection is a great idea. I plan on using it this summer on my setup. I have a roots blower, so its attached directly to the engine, i have no room for an intercooler. I plan on running 8 lbs of boost with the alky injection.
Zgringo
05-09-2005, 02:13 AM
i thinky alky injection is a great idea. I plan on using it this summer on my setup. I have a roots blower, so its attached directly to the engine, i have no room for an intercooler. I plan on running 8 lbs of boost with the alky injection.
Jason, I think you'll be happier than pigs knee deep in poop running that combination.
Jason, I think you'll be happier than pigs knee deep in poop running that combination.
SaabJohan
05-09-2005, 01:14 PM
That the F1 fuel of the eighties was called "rocketfuel" has its roots in the special fuel used by BMW. According to a myth the fuel was old nazi rocket fuel which of course it wasn't. The fuel BMW used was fully synthetic and made by Wintershall, the petroleum division of BASF (which was one of the companies in IG Farben).
The intercoolers used by Honda did their job quite well and got the temperatures down below 40 degC (from about 250 degC). They were infact fitted with bypass valves so the inlet temperatures didn't got too low (the temperature was supposed to be kept at 40 degC) which resulted in vaporization problems and a higher fuel consumption (these engines where fuel consumption limited). Later even the fuel was preheated by the coolant and the temperature of the incoming air was increased to 70 degC.
Steam can be defined in several ways. In either case it will be nothing more than water vapor (water in gas state). Water can vaporize at temperatures lower than 100 degC, but the vaporisation will be quite small.
Even liquids can be compressed, the compression is however that small that it's often ignored (for good reasons). Water for example decreases its volume by about .3% when going from 1 to 70 bars pressure.
In the case of water injection the amount of water in the chamber is very small so that as a liquid it won't take up much space.
Let's assume that we inject water with a ratio of 40 kg air per kg water (about 30% of gasoline flow). With that ratio the heat of vaporization will result in a cooling effect of 56 kJ/kg air. If methanol is injected as a fuel with a ratio of 7:1 it offer a cooling effect of 133 kJ/kg air, and gasoline about 36 kJ/kg air injected with a ratio of 12.5:1. 56 kJ/kg air is enough to cool the charge with around 70 degC, but most of this cooling will occur in the combustion chamber. The charge itself isn't cooled with much more than around say 15-20 degC with an initial temperature of the air by 70 degC. The cooling effect will however increase if the air temperature increase and decrease if the air temperature decrease. As for increasing the density of the charge, water injection alone isn't a good idea, but most supercharged racing cars using water injection where also fitted with an intercooler for that purpose.
In addition to the cooling provided by the heat of vaporisation, water will consume 4,18 kJ/(kg*K) as liquid and around 2 kJ/(kg*K) as vapor. The specific heat as water vapor is about twice that of air.
The real advantage of the water is that well inside the combustion chamber it can cool the chamber itself but also the gas during combustion resulting in lower temperatures and a slower heat release. The water do not provide additional pressure on the piston (as sometimes stated), but it supress engine knock due to the reasons mentioned above and the engine can therefore be used with higher boost pressures, more ignition advance and leaner fuel mixture giving possibilities to increase engine power/save fuel with those methods. The injection of water alone will most likely cause a small drop in engine power.
It's also very important that the water injection system provides the correct amount of water just like with fuel injection. Too little water and detonation can occur, too much water and the engine will lose power but it can also take damage by for example contaminate the lubricant.
The effects of "boost fluids" or "water injection" was mainly studied around the 1930:ies by sir Harry Ricardo, which is documented in his book "The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine".
The intercoolers used by Honda did their job quite well and got the temperatures down below 40 degC (from about 250 degC). They were infact fitted with bypass valves so the inlet temperatures didn't got too low (the temperature was supposed to be kept at 40 degC) which resulted in vaporization problems and a higher fuel consumption (these engines where fuel consumption limited). Later even the fuel was preheated by the coolant and the temperature of the incoming air was increased to 70 degC.
Steam can be defined in several ways. In either case it will be nothing more than water vapor (water in gas state). Water can vaporize at temperatures lower than 100 degC, but the vaporisation will be quite small.
Even liquids can be compressed, the compression is however that small that it's often ignored (for good reasons). Water for example decreases its volume by about .3% when going from 1 to 70 bars pressure.
In the case of water injection the amount of water in the chamber is very small so that as a liquid it won't take up much space.
Let's assume that we inject water with a ratio of 40 kg air per kg water (about 30% of gasoline flow). With that ratio the heat of vaporization will result in a cooling effect of 56 kJ/kg air. If methanol is injected as a fuel with a ratio of 7:1 it offer a cooling effect of 133 kJ/kg air, and gasoline about 36 kJ/kg air injected with a ratio of 12.5:1. 56 kJ/kg air is enough to cool the charge with around 70 degC, but most of this cooling will occur in the combustion chamber. The charge itself isn't cooled with much more than around say 15-20 degC with an initial temperature of the air by 70 degC. The cooling effect will however increase if the air temperature increase and decrease if the air temperature decrease. As for increasing the density of the charge, water injection alone isn't a good idea, but most supercharged racing cars using water injection where also fitted with an intercooler for that purpose.
In addition to the cooling provided by the heat of vaporisation, water will consume 4,18 kJ/(kg*K) as liquid and around 2 kJ/(kg*K) as vapor. The specific heat as water vapor is about twice that of air.
The real advantage of the water is that well inside the combustion chamber it can cool the chamber itself but also the gas during combustion resulting in lower temperatures and a slower heat release. The water do not provide additional pressure on the piston (as sometimes stated), but it supress engine knock due to the reasons mentioned above and the engine can therefore be used with higher boost pressures, more ignition advance and leaner fuel mixture giving possibilities to increase engine power/save fuel with those methods. The injection of water alone will most likely cause a small drop in engine power.
It's also very important that the water injection system provides the correct amount of water just like with fuel injection. Too little water and detonation can occur, too much water and the engine will lose power but it can also take damage by for example contaminate the lubricant.
The effects of "boost fluids" or "water injection" was mainly studied around the 1930:ies by sir Harry Ricardo, which is documented in his book "The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine".
Zgringo
05-09-2005, 04:01 PM
Saabjohan, since you insist on posting old theory and mytholgy, I'll try and correct your error with proven usage and modern fact.
That the F1 fuel of the eighties was called "rocketfuel" has its roots in the special fuel used by BMW. According to a myth the fuel was old nazi rocket fuel which of course it wasn't. The fuel BMW used was fully synthetic and made by Wintershall, the petroleum division of BASF (which was one of the companies in IG Farben).
"Rocketfuel" was used back in the 1920's and I learned of it's use in the late 40's and was using it in the 50's. This was long before the Germans were even into rocket development. BMW did have a fuel that was toluene base but the fillers added to it were very toxic and dangerious and was outlawed. Some claimed it was the old German V2 rocket fuel, which it wasn't.
The intercoolers used by Honda did their job quite well and got the temperatures down below 40 degC (from about 250 degC). They were infact fitted with bypass valves so the inlet temperatures didn't got too low (the temperature was supposed to be kept at 40 degC) which resulted in vaporization problems and a higher fuel consumption (these engines where fuel consumption limited). Later even the fuel was preheated by the coolant and the temperature of the incoming air was increased to 70 degC.
Honda's IC were very good but couldn't do there job at very hi-boosts, water injection was used to aid in cooling the inlet air. Under normal racing conditions water injection wasn't needed.
Toluene doesn't like to vaporise when cold and because of the high percentages of it present in "rocketfuel" had to be preheated to maintain good vaporazation.
Steam can be defined in several ways. In either case it will be nothing more than water vapor (water in gas state). Water can vaporize at temperatures lower than 100 degC, but the vaporisation will be quite small.
When water vaporizes at temps lower than 100C it's called, "Evaporation".
Even liquids can be compressed, the compression is however that small that it's often ignored (for good reasons). Water for example decreases its volume by about .3% when going from 1 to 70 bars pressure.
In the case of water injection the amount of water in the chamber is very small so that as a liquid it won't take up much space.
What this has to do with the subject matter, I have no idea, other than water expands when heated or frozen.
Let's assume that we inject water with a ratio of 40 kg air per kg water (about 30% of gasoline flow). With that ratio the heat of vaporization will result in a cooling effect of 56 kJ/kg air. If methanol is injected as a fuel with a ratio of 7:1 it offer a cooling effect of 133 kJ/kg air, and gasoline about 36 kJ/kg air injected with a ratio of 12.5:1. 56 kJ/kg air is enough to cool the charge with around 70 degC, but most of this cooling will occur in the combustion chamber. The charge itself isn't cooled with much more than around say 15-20 degC with an initial temperature of the air by 70 degC. The cooling effect will however increase if the air temperature increase and decrease if the air temperature decrease. As for increasing the density of the charge, water injection alone isn't a good idea, but most supercharged racing cars using water injection where also fitted with an intercooler for that purpose.
Tell this to the guys that run methanol and have frost on there intake manifolds. Anytime you decrease the inlet air temp you increase the density of the air.
The real advantage of the water is that well inside the combustion chamber it can cool the chamber itself but also the gas during combustion resulting in lower temperatures and a slower heat release. The water do not provide additional pressure on the piston (as sometimes stated), but it supress engine knock due to the reasons mentioned above and the engine can therefore be used with higher boost pressures, more ignition advance and leaner fuel mixture giving possibilities to increase engine power/save fuel with those methods. The injection of water alone will most likely cause a small drop in engine power.
One gram of water heated to 350F has enough energy to lift a 3,000 lb. car 2 inches, so tell us how this water vapor heated to 800F+ has no energy.
Water alone and the power won't drop, the engine won't run. Trust me, you need alittle air and gasoline also.
It's also very important that the water injection system provides the correct amount of water just like with fuel injection. Too little water and detonation can occur, too much water and the engine will lose power but it can also take damage by for example contaminate the lubricant.
Same thing holds true for the gasoline, to little and you'll start damaging shit, too much and you'll lose power, wash down the cylinders and contaminate the oil.
The effects of "boost fluids" or "water injection" was mainly studied around the 1930:ies by sir Harry Ricardo, which is documented in his book "The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine".
Sir Harry Ricardo's book was based on theory and equipment for it's time and very little of it applys to the modern engine as we now have or know.
I suggest Saabjohan, being you have a desire to learn and read, find some books on applied science and the modern automobile. You might even hang out at a tuners shop or try and apply some technology to your car then write reports on your findings. We need people like you with this desire to update old theory.
That the F1 fuel of the eighties was called "rocketfuel" has its roots in the special fuel used by BMW. According to a myth the fuel was old nazi rocket fuel which of course it wasn't. The fuel BMW used was fully synthetic and made by Wintershall, the petroleum division of BASF (which was one of the companies in IG Farben).
"Rocketfuel" was used back in the 1920's and I learned of it's use in the late 40's and was using it in the 50's. This was long before the Germans were even into rocket development. BMW did have a fuel that was toluene base but the fillers added to it were very toxic and dangerious and was outlawed. Some claimed it was the old German V2 rocket fuel, which it wasn't.
The intercoolers used by Honda did their job quite well and got the temperatures down below 40 degC (from about 250 degC). They were infact fitted with bypass valves so the inlet temperatures didn't got too low (the temperature was supposed to be kept at 40 degC) which resulted in vaporization problems and a higher fuel consumption (these engines where fuel consumption limited). Later even the fuel was preheated by the coolant and the temperature of the incoming air was increased to 70 degC.
Honda's IC were very good but couldn't do there job at very hi-boosts, water injection was used to aid in cooling the inlet air. Under normal racing conditions water injection wasn't needed.
Toluene doesn't like to vaporise when cold and because of the high percentages of it present in "rocketfuel" had to be preheated to maintain good vaporazation.
Steam can be defined in several ways. In either case it will be nothing more than water vapor (water in gas state). Water can vaporize at temperatures lower than 100 degC, but the vaporisation will be quite small.
When water vaporizes at temps lower than 100C it's called, "Evaporation".
Even liquids can be compressed, the compression is however that small that it's often ignored (for good reasons). Water for example decreases its volume by about .3% when going from 1 to 70 bars pressure.
In the case of water injection the amount of water in the chamber is very small so that as a liquid it won't take up much space.
What this has to do with the subject matter, I have no idea, other than water expands when heated or frozen.
Let's assume that we inject water with a ratio of 40 kg air per kg water (about 30% of gasoline flow). With that ratio the heat of vaporization will result in a cooling effect of 56 kJ/kg air. If methanol is injected as a fuel with a ratio of 7:1 it offer a cooling effect of 133 kJ/kg air, and gasoline about 36 kJ/kg air injected with a ratio of 12.5:1. 56 kJ/kg air is enough to cool the charge with around 70 degC, but most of this cooling will occur in the combustion chamber. The charge itself isn't cooled with much more than around say 15-20 degC with an initial temperature of the air by 70 degC. The cooling effect will however increase if the air temperature increase and decrease if the air temperature decrease. As for increasing the density of the charge, water injection alone isn't a good idea, but most supercharged racing cars using water injection where also fitted with an intercooler for that purpose.
Tell this to the guys that run methanol and have frost on there intake manifolds. Anytime you decrease the inlet air temp you increase the density of the air.
The real advantage of the water is that well inside the combustion chamber it can cool the chamber itself but also the gas during combustion resulting in lower temperatures and a slower heat release. The water do not provide additional pressure on the piston (as sometimes stated), but it supress engine knock due to the reasons mentioned above and the engine can therefore be used with higher boost pressures, more ignition advance and leaner fuel mixture giving possibilities to increase engine power/save fuel with those methods. The injection of water alone will most likely cause a small drop in engine power.
One gram of water heated to 350F has enough energy to lift a 3,000 lb. car 2 inches, so tell us how this water vapor heated to 800F+ has no energy.
Water alone and the power won't drop, the engine won't run. Trust me, you need alittle air and gasoline also.
It's also very important that the water injection system provides the correct amount of water just like with fuel injection. Too little water and detonation can occur, too much water and the engine will lose power but it can also take damage by for example contaminate the lubricant.
Same thing holds true for the gasoline, to little and you'll start damaging shit, too much and you'll lose power, wash down the cylinders and contaminate the oil.
The effects of "boost fluids" or "water injection" was mainly studied around the 1930:ies by sir Harry Ricardo, which is documented in his book "The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine".
Sir Harry Ricardo's book was based on theory and equipment for it's time and very little of it applys to the modern engine as we now have or know.
I suggest Saabjohan, being you have a desire to learn and read, find some books on applied science and the modern automobile. You might even hang out at a tuners shop or try and apply some technology to your car then write reports on your findings. We need people like you with this desire to update old theory.
Franko914
07-01-2005, 12:46 AM
1. Knocking is NOT the same as pre-ignition. The octane rating is the fuels resistance against knocking, but it has noting to do with pre- or post-ignition.
The octane rating is the fuel's resistance to detonation which in turn causes knocking. When the spark jumps the gap, the fuel-air mixture begins to ignite and the flame front propagates through the combustion chamber. If the octane rating is too low, rather than the flame front propagating throughout the combustion chamber, the remaining/unburnt fuel-air mixture detonates from the increased combustion chamber pressure. This causes the "knock."
Pre-ignition (ignition before the spark ignites the fuel-air mixture) can be caused by (a) low-octane fuel detonating as the cylinder pressure increases while approaching the top of the compression stroke, or (b) poorly seating exhaust valve which retains the heat rather than conducting it to the head thereby causing the being-compressed fuel-air mixture to ignite prior to spark sequence. In both cases, pre-ignition can cause knocking.
2. Water is the best coolant for water injection. Alcohol is sometimes added to prevent freezing of the water.
Yes, for cooling the charge air, water is the best. Many use water injection for cooling the charge air and also for keeping the combustion chambers and vavles "clean." Still others add alcohol, off-the-shelf H2O2 and even acetone to achieve what they perceive to be better performance.
4. An intercooler is a better choice than water injection (water injection is however not a real option to an intercooler).
Lowering the charge air temp is better than not lowering the charge air temp. Lowering the charge air temp by 100 degrees F is better than lowering the charge air temp by 30 degrees. If a combination of intercooler/water-injection (whether spraying water into the plenum or spraying the water onto the intercooler fins) lowers the temperature even more, then so much better, especially for diesel applications as they are not constrained by the 14.1 stoichiometric ratio of gasoline engines.
The octane rating is the fuel's resistance to detonation which in turn causes knocking. When the spark jumps the gap, the fuel-air mixture begins to ignite and the flame front propagates through the combustion chamber. If the octane rating is too low, rather than the flame front propagating throughout the combustion chamber, the remaining/unburnt fuel-air mixture detonates from the increased combustion chamber pressure. This causes the "knock."
Pre-ignition (ignition before the spark ignites the fuel-air mixture) can be caused by (a) low-octane fuel detonating as the cylinder pressure increases while approaching the top of the compression stroke, or (b) poorly seating exhaust valve which retains the heat rather than conducting it to the head thereby causing the being-compressed fuel-air mixture to ignite prior to spark sequence. In both cases, pre-ignition can cause knocking.
2. Water is the best coolant for water injection. Alcohol is sometimes added to prevent freezing of the water.
Yes, for cooling the charge air, water is the best. Many use water injection for cooling the charge air and also for keeping the combustion chambers and vavles "clean." Still others add alcohol, off-the-shelf H2O2 and even acetone to achieve what they perceive to be better performance.
4. An intercooler is a better choice than water injection (water injection is however not a real option to an intercooler).
Lowering the charge air temp is better than not lowering the charge air temp. Lowering the charge air temp by 100 degrees F is better than lowering the charge air temp by 30 degrees. If a combination of intercooler/water-injection (whether spraying water into the plenum or spraying the water onto the intercooler fins) lowers the temperature even more, then so much better, especially for diesel applications as they are not constrained by the 14.1 stoichiometric ratio of gasoline engines.
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