Good ol' Debate

Is or was the camaro(firebird) ever a muscle car.. Having a big arguement at work about it, and im looking for some educated opinions on the matter.. Are they or arent they?

They come out as a "Pony car" but what is a pony car and have they found their way into the American muscle car catagory???

kind of an opinionated question for the most part... yes the camaro, and mustang were pony cars. but the camaros were often considered musclecars because of the massive engines that were put in them from the factory. my personal opinion is that all camaros are pony cars, but during the muscle car era the big block 'maros were also muscle cars. alot of people will say that the camaro is strictly a pony car because it was the same market as the mustang. the difference however, mustangs were stylish cars, not real performance cars like the fairlane was. in fact, ask many muscle car guru's, and they consider only the 428 cobra jet mustang to be a muscle car, not any of the other ones. while big-block camaros are considered muscle by just about everyone... i hope that made sense i'm tired and i feel as if i'm rambling...

i have to add that i'm talking about the muscle car era, the newer camaros and mustangs are considered both pony and muscle cars, even tho there are no more big blocks...

The true "muscle cars" were the larger cars with the monster engines, ie GTOs with the 389+ engines, Roadrunners with 383+, Hemi 'Cuda, etc.
The F bodys were first called "pony cars", then later they were dubbed "Performance cars".
I'm old...I lived in the "Muscle car" era

Well it always depends on who you ask, see what I think is that during the 60s the maro,fbird, and mustang were muscle cars, but then more into the 80s-90s and so on they became sportcars because theres no more big blocks in them. See the muscle car era ended when the oil crisis happend in the 70s, but thats atleast my way of thinking about them.

F-Body's were never "Muscle" cars.

the difference however, mustangs were stylish cars, not real performance cars like the fairlane was. in fact, ask many muscle car guru's, and they consider only the 428 cobra jet mustang to be a muscle car, not any of the other ones. while big-block camaros are considered muscle by just about everyone

I realize this is a Camaro forum, but geez! Neither car was meant to be more stylish than another. The Mustang came out, and as a reaction(yes, sorry, but it was) the Camaro came out. I consider them both pony cars, and then I consider Chevelles, Challengers, Chargers, and GTOs muscle cars. You could consider the muscle car to go back as far as the 1957 mechanically fuel injected Chevy, but we won't get into that because it could probably trace back forever! Fairlanes were definitely not as sporty as a Mustang, and therefore wasn't considered to have more performance than a Mustang. Mustang was Ford's affordable performance car. Shelby stepped in in '65 and helped ford out with lining up true racers. Many more Mustangs were considered performance cars than the 428 Cobra Jet. There was the: 428 Super Cobra Jet, 289 Hi-Po, 351 C, Boss 429, Boss 302, Boss 351, 390, and then the 427 SOHC race motor. So, these cars are fairly evenly matched, and have to be considered the the same category which I believe is "Pony" car. I suppose it just depends on what crowd you talk to!

i was watching discovery channel a while back and they were interviewing a muscle car collector and he said big block maros were considered muscle cars, and that the only production stang he considered muscle was the 428 cobra jet...

but i also said in my first post that this was a very opinionated question...

pony cars are small 2 door sports cars with a long hood and really, really short decklid. A muscle car is a 2 door production medium size car with a big engine

nicely put
but i think the older ones have more a muscle appeal due to come on they were big blocks and hell the camaro kept one the year after they were supposed to utilize some conservitive fuel deal
and if that isnt woried about muscle i dont know what is

well a muscle car in my book is a fast car thats rear wheel drive and has a lot of weight on it. That doesnt spell muscle car for a Camaro, but big deal. If we wanted a muscle car, chevy would have added a thousand pounds, made the car bulkier, and in my opinion less appealing. Have you seen a chevelle or a cuda, or any other mainstream muscle car take a corner. Thous things arent sporty unless your in a straight line. WE love our camaros because they are fast, and fun to drive, and the ladies like them too. :naughty:

So who cares if they arent muscle cars, im feel more proud to say that my car can outrun thous muscle cars, forward and back, but also left and right around a turn.

They really got to ditch that "Pony Car" term. I dont drive a little girlly horsie, i drive a names taking badass.

hey ever here of a ZL1 69 maro, that isnt a "muscle car" that baby is a racecar.

Heard on TV yesterday that the Challenger was originally marketed as competition to Mustangs and F-bodies.

Short answer is no.. do a search man, youve been here lon enough to know that

hey ever here of a ZL1 69 maro, that isnt a "muscle car" that baby is a racecar.

Ever heard. ROFL. Its THE most amazing car on the planet (opinion).

1969 Camaro
-C.O.P.O. Option
-427ci / 425hp Big Block Chevrolet
-Cowl Induction Hood
-Optional hide awway headlights

And some more, but I gotta drop a deus like theres no tomorrow.

F-Body's were never "Muscle" cars.


Amen revrend :cool:


As far a GM, the Buick GS, chevelle, GTO, cutlass. Thoes were the muscle cars.

Alot of people (Hemmings, Hot Rod, GM high tech performance.) consider the Grand National as the Last Muscle car.


There, that should start some debate, a six popper being a muscle car.

a six banger being a muscle car my ass.

By today's definition Ponycars are musclecars but they weren't back in the day.....

http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Beer-Chug.gif

The Firebirds, Camaros, and Mustangs were first classified as Pony Cars. The Camaro and Firebird increased the size of the car, creating an arguement weather or not the car is still a pony car or not. They have always been pony cars, and always will be. The new camaro will bring the car back to its pony roots, and there will be no debate.

Somebody back when posted a link to a criteria chart about Muscle cars.

If I remember correctly, the only F-Body's that were considered "muscle cars" were the Firebirds equiped with the 400cid motors.

Obviously that 427cid Camaro is a muscle car in every respect - was that a special option or model in that year?

But typically, the Camaro's were not considered Muscle Cars back then, they were Pony's like the stang.

Somebody back when posted a link to a criteria chart about Muscle cars.

If I remember correctly, the only F-Body's that were considered "muscle cars" were the Firebirds equiped with the 400cid motors.

Obviously that 427cid Camaro is a muscle car in every respect - was that a special option or model in that year?

But typically, the Camaro's were not considered Muscle Cars back then, they were Pony's like the stang.

Yes, like I said before, in the COPO option.

Obviously that 427cid Camaro is a muscle car in every respect - was that a special option or model in that year?

The ZL1 wasn't really even an option... it was ordered by a Chevy dealership on a special deal with GM..only 69 were ever made.

It depends on who you talk to. I consider my 69 camaro a muscle car more than i do a pony car. It doesn't really matter to me if someone calls it a pony car because the end result is the same...It's a 69 camaro. There were plenty of big block camaros besides just the 427 optioned C.O.P.O. as i'm sure most here know. And as for the GN being the last muscle car...I think not...

William

I'd like to add my :2cents: to this. This is really opinion because different people say different things.

I asked my dad because he was around then and people used the 1 horsepower per 10 pounds method or basically power to weight ratio. He said if your car made at least 1 horsepower per 10 pounds, or less, it was considered a muscle car. The high output 289 Mustang had a close power to weight ratio as a GTO or Chevelle.

Some people say it started out small and got bigger. Several guys said it started out as if you had a 300 or bigger you had a muscle car. It then got to a 350, then a 400, then a 450, and finally up to 500.

There is one thing that comes into play about muscle cars and that is price. Remember, almost anybody could get their hands on a muscle car. Their goal was to give a person a good performing car for a good buy.

The Mustang was said to be "the poor man's sports car" or what many came to call it a "pony car." The Mustang, Camaro, and Firebird were cheap to get and good performance buys. They could break well, handle well, and weren't a full sports car, like a Corvette, but weren't grandma's grocery getter, like how most muscle cars started out.

The GTO as we all know was the first muscle car. It was an option from the Le Mans platform. The Mustang, Camaro, and Firebird were not options but their own cars. Most muscle cars were mid-sized family cars that had big engines stuffed into them. These cars were also fairly heavy, unlike Camaros or Mustangs, and couldn't handle well or break good.

The Camaro, Firebird, and Mustang weren't mid-sized family cars and had a performance option added. They started out with two doors and had performance in mind the moment the pencil hit the drawing board. Also, these cars weren't options you had to get from a base line car.

I have an "American Muscle Cars" book and they consider the big block pony cars to be as muscle as you can get. To them, the pony car wars were a major party of the muscle car trend in the 60's.

Also, insurance companies at the time considered pony cars with big blocks or high output small blocks to be muscle cars. This is one reason in 1970 Chevy said the LT-1 Camaro only had 350 horsepower even though it was really 360 like the LT-1 Corvette.

Short answer is no.. do a search man, youve been here lon enough to know that

I didnt want a short yes/no answer smartass.. I was more interested in opinions from different gen camaro owners and different make/model owners and muscle car enthusiasts.. :D