PROPER pocket rocket comparison (with more variables controlled)

when i first read the pocket rocket comparison a guy started, i couldn't believe the cars he had in the group--why is the civic si, focus svt, and gti being compared to rsx and wrx, not even in the same class.. and omg, the si.. that thing has horrendous looks. cars that can be fairly compared are the following:
-focus svt (170hps) -- 18,000
-civic si (160hps) -- 19.000
-neon srt (204 hps) -- 20,000
-turbo protege (170 hps) -- ~19,000
-SE-R spec v (175 hps) -- 17,000
-golf gti (180hps) -- 19,000

-all are UNDER the 20 k mark, with a fair bit of price range
-and all are the "performance" trims of their respective models with varying options
-which are turbo charged? neon srt, turbo protege, gti
-the only real "exclusive" feature amongst all these cars is an LSD! and the only one to have it is the spec v
-the neon srt looks like a wrx and vice versa, interior's ok, rear end is uuugly (still a neon)
-svt exterior is not bad, interiors pretty good
-si, ugly exterior, ok interior
-protege, nimble nice exterior and ok interior
-gti, ok exterior and interior, high cost of ownership

BEST balance of looks/performance/price?
-the SPEC V
-some other cars have better 0-60 times, but they are turbo'd
-nismo is coming to NA fall 2002 and tack ona turbo and voila EVEN better 0-60 times etc
-nice looks (skyline type front end and seats)
-questionable rear end? (must see in real life, looks quite nice)
-questionable tranny hps losses? still an excellent performer (0-60 in 7.1, 1/4 in 15.1)
-6 speed tranny, some others only have a 5 speed
-LSD an expensive feature not seen in other models

-the only cars i'd consider? turbo protege and focus svt but still more $

-what i'm getting?? spec v!! it's hyped, yes, but STILL a performer and GREAT competitor? a resounding YES!!
-EXCellent excellent value
-again, nismo anyone?

RSX or wrx?
-whole differnet price range and therefore not considered.

btw, IF i'm missing something, NO flames, but constructive and INSIGHTFUL criticisms welcome. and NO rsx/wrx comparisons as i've EXPLAINED WHY.

what's your verdict?

I voted NisMo.........what else would you expect? ;) Oh well, im not down with the whole hatchback look

Gotta go with the Turbo Protege

1. It does have a LSD
2. Its got a factory turbo
3. Its got 4 wheel disc breaks

I had looked at the Spec V but after reading user complaints on Freshalloy I was turned off by it

Anywho, the Mazdaspeed Protege out paced the WRX at Limerock :D
Biggest problem? Only 2000 to be imported :( :mad: :newburn:

Edit: kekeke I mispelled brakes :bloated:

lol.. of course you're gonna be "turned off" by it, b/c it's ACTUALLY out and people are always nitpicky and paranoid about things being wrong.
as for the protege, i guess i was mistaken about the lsd; however, the protege mp3 (non turbo) already costs as much as a spec FULLY loaded
and so i can only guess how much the turbo protege is gonna cost, probably just under 20k which leaves a huge price gap. with the $ you save, i say spend on a nismo turbo or other less expensive mods, and there you go, the spec v outperforms the turbo protege.

Seriously , if i wanted a good performer under 20k i won't look at new cars... honestly , a good performer has to have a big engine or a turbo engine , and RWD or 4WD , the only way to fly... if you're for performance go buy a second hand sportscar , if want to impress teenage girls then go get any of those.... I know you'll probably start flaming me for this , but i don't see much sense in "sport compact"... compacts are made to be economical city cars , and because of the trends manufacturers make "sport" versions of them and rip pepole off with it... I'm sorry but i hate those pepole driving some econobox compacts and thinking they're fast and furious (i watched the movie only once , it shows such pepole , turboed civics with billion shot of NAWS and whatnot:bloated: )

My vote - a second hand sports car...

hehe, no flame, BUT, you defeated the purpose of my poll!! nooo... :mad: hehe. no, i understand what you mean and that's coo, but STILL, please make a choice :), it's limited to these 6, if not other comparable new cars

Originally posted by sleeperguy
lol.. of course you're gonna be "turned off" by it, b/c it's ACTUALLY out and people are always nitpicky and paranoid about things being wrong.
as for the protege, i guess i was mistaken about the lsd; however, the protege mp3 (non turbo) already costs as much as a spec FULLY loaded
and so i can only guess how much the turbo protege is gonna cost, probably just under 20k which leaves a huge price gap. with the $ you save, i say spend on a nismo turbo or other less expensive mods, and there you go, the spec v outperforms the turbo protege.

true but a turbo package for the spec V will even out the cost between the two. And you'll still have drum brakes (spelled correctly :D ) in the rear. Not to flame, but no self respecting "sports" car can claim they run drum brakes in any corner of their car. You get what you paid for, as my friends in their WRX found (crappy interior and details). I realized that there will be compromises when building a sports car for me I'd rather have the factory turbo the car and let me decide on the boost level :smoka:


Edit:

Tom, the used car idea isnt too bad for people who have garages. For me living in an apartment complex makes in next to impossible to do. A used 240sx and a SR20DET will make me quite :D

evening out the price is exactly what i'm saying; if you even out the price by getting the turbo for the spec, then you get more performance than any other here for almost the same price (depending on the model of course). hehe and just to let you know, the spec v has 4 wheel disc brakes standard.

... if you're for performance go buy a second hand sportscar , if want to impress teenage girls then go get any of those...

and if she doesnt like a sports car, even if its a second-hand, shes a waste of time anyway ;)

Generaly if you want to talk about Pocket rockets I would say the Civic Type-R any day, or older versions of the VTi-R/SiR

However since this is about American cars, and the US Honda's are rather watered down, (seems americans cant controll small powerfull cars) I would have to say the Nissan is the car of choice.

Lots of hp, and heaps of torque from a proven engine design that has heaps of aftermaket surport and plenty of room to get better. (turbo kit anybody?). Its then all wraped up in a nice looking body, and if they handle like the old Sentra SSS's then a good comunicative handeling package as well. :cool:

Originally posted by NismoDrifts


and if she doesnt like a sports car, even if its a second-hand, shes a waste of time anyway ;)

I meant that if you want performance buy a sports car , if you want impress girls buy any of those , and i mean those from the poll...

i know what you meant, lol.

the SE-R got my vote. its looks absolutely fabulious in person. esp in black. pretty nice interior. and it has one of the highest grip level in its class. even though it torque steers left and right. it still does the slalom the fastest. the most clumsiest but the fastest non the less.

Originally posted by sleeperguy
evening out the price is exactly what i'm saying; if you even out the price by getting the turbo for the spec, then you get more performance than any other here for almost the same price (depending on the model of course). hehe and just to let you know, the spec v has 4 wheel disc brakes standard.

Oh is that what u meant, then my bad. But according to www.nissandriven.com if you look at the specs for SE-R and the Spec V
Front disc/rear drum brakes are standard on both. I only went by what was shown on Nissan's website.

EDIT: The brakes are one of the reasons why the Spec V dropped out of my radar

These cars dont deserve to be described as pocket rockets. This (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/t33398.html) does. 0-60 in 5.7, 137 mph vmax, 4WD, 6X WRC. Yours for around $20k, there can be no substitute. actually wait, not available in the States, sorry!!

Good try Jay...unfortunately we States ppl get screwed by not getting cool cars like that...and other cool cars like the 959 just to name one.

man, i WOULD vote for impreza 2.5 ($18,000 and i have raced all the ones u listed except neon srt and focus svt, ang i beat all the ones u listed that i have raced. PLUS awd and center vicous coupling limited slip and wrc winning suspension, hey im just listing why i think it should have been included) so im gonna have to go with the sentra.

Good try Jay...unfortunately we States ppl get screwed by not getting cool cars like that...and other cool cars like the 959 just to name one
sorry.. couldnt resist posting it :D ... its the ultimate pocket rocket... hell, you read the post! :D

cheers,
jay

Originally posted by ldelaysionl
man, i WOULD vote for impreza 2.5 ($18,000 and i have raced all the ones u listed except neon srt and focus svt, ang i beat all the ones u listed that i have raced. PLUS awd and center vicous coupling limited slip and wrc winning suspension, hey im just listing why i think it should have been included) so im gonna have to go with the sentra.

Beat...? In what sort of way...straight line or in handling (road race/autocross)...???

The Golf is quick...0-60 in 6.8 seconds so I dont think you beat that car in the straight line...

:bandit:

i meant straight line, but perhaps it wasnt a gti? that actually doesnt sound too far off from my 0-60, although ive never actually measured it.

i know the published stock 1/4 time for my car is supposed to be 16.4 or something like that, but its a big underestimate, the best time ever for a stock impreza 2.5 is 15.2.

best times i've read about are 15.1 for the 1/4 mile and 7.1 for the 0-60 for a stock spec v

The 2.5 cannot be that quick b/c I think it would encroach on the performance value of the WRX...I think it does the 0-60 in like 7.5 seconds...also it's heavier than the previous bodystyle.

Originally posted by NISSANSPDR
The 2.5 cannot be that quick b/c I think it would encroach on the performance value of the WRX...I think it does the 0-60 in like 7.5 seconds...also it's heavier than the previous bodystyle.

nah the wrx will hit 13's stock, thats 1.5 seconds quicker.

Thought the WRX could only hit 14.4 seconds in the quarter...14.1 at best...not 13 second quarters...

The new Civic Si's are by far the best for the money. Plain and simple, you can't go wrong with a Honda.

the wrx is faster than its published times, just like the rs.

The new Civic Si's are by far the best for the money. Plain and simple, you can't go wrong with a Honda.

umm excuse me? lol exactly HOW is the Si the best for the money? because "you can't go wrong with a Honda"?? hahahahaha right.. nice reasoning. please support your claims. I hardly think the Si looks any good, aside from that, when you say "can't go wrong with a Honda," you imply the issue of build quality; consumer reports shows that there isn't any difference between nissan and honda quality (they're both right behind toyota). Time and time again, nissan sentra's have always offered a huge value over toyota and honda, heck even domestics. Again, i ask for you to support your choice instead of a "plain and simple" biased choice.

Aside from your opinions, Honda has proven to have better build quality. Consumer reports? Ha, Honda's always rate better than the competition in there. How about you read the April Motor Trend with the big comparo, I think they something along the lines of the Nissan having good performance, but having a low quality interior. I do also believe that they praise the Honda for having all around high quality. Yes I am biased, you seem to be also. Hell what is this pole or any for? I can care less, Honda's are my favorite. That's not to say I don't like any other cars or brands, I just choose Honda above all others. Why do you even care soo much?

I'll give you some reasons why the Si is not the best...

1)LOOKS - God what have they done?

2)15 inch wheels - Umm what are we supposed to do w/these? At least the previous one's were useful for autocrossing or to sell to other guys..but who's gonna want these?

3)POWER? - True it went up in displacement but where's the extra HP? Oh that's right you still have 160HP...doh!

4)Suspension - The previous Si and Civic for that matter had better suspension...this new setup blows.

5)By no means a CTR - As per usual Honda USA gives the States the shaft and keeps the good version of the Civic for itself.

6)Cannot compete - Even though it will have a strong aftermarket following b/c parents will by this Civic for their kids and everyone thus will have one b/c it's a cheap, economical, reliable car...it will not be able to beat any of the other cars listed in STOCK TRIM in any performance categories or handling categories.

Bottom line...this Honda Civic Si..is a step down from where Honda was going...they need to think more in terms of CTR, ITR, and S2K rather than the way they are thinking and need to stop whatever it is they are smoking.

I feel so sorry for and I mean really really sorry for US Honda owners.
You get screwed time and time again, all because in the rest of the world Honda has a respectable performance image, while in the states thanks to the desicion makers over there you get an economy car image, and the cars to match it.

Hell my now 12yr old Civic has as much hp as the new USDM Si, but a lot less weight, and I bet a more aggresivly tuned suspenion set up.
:D

It seems that the US does get a very differnt range of cars to the rest of the world.

I mean sub 7sec 0-60mph for a Golf GTi!!!! :eek: god damn! Thats about 1.5sec faster than the GTi the rest of the world gets. In fact the current shape GTi sold down here is slower than the orginal.

It does however make for some interesting reading, seeing what the US based Japanese companys are doing in an attempt to compete not only with each other, but with the american obssesion with hp. (and lets be honest here, Honda America, Toyota America and Nissan America are now as much as, and in some cases more american than GM and Ford.
(how many USDM only Honda, Toyota and Nissans are there? compared to the constant model sharing now done by Ford and GM? (rhetorical question, its to Off topic)

And ldelaysionl do you really think a Stock USDM spec WRX can hit low 13s? especialy when it has less hp then the JDM Version, and that only just makes it into the high 14s.

Originally posted by Moppie
And ldelaysionl do you really think a Stock USDM spec WRX can hit low 13s? especialy when it has less hp then the JDM Version, and that only just makes it into the high 14s.

yep, and the jdms are even faster

there are even a few agazines that have documented 14.1's just not consistently. and private owners have broken into 13's.

Regardless of what SOME of your opinions are I still choose Honda. I don't really even care about their performance aspect. When the 2003 model year rolls around I'm probably going to buy a CR-V or Pilot. I drove a new Civic Si and I thought it was alright and that is why I voted for it. If SOMEONE wants to argue my opinion they need to find a more constuctive way to use the great amount of time they seem to have on their hands.

PEACE :D

the wrx is faster than its published times, just like the rs.

heh, cars are always faster than published times. The way you state it implies that only wrx's and rs's are faster than their published times. It's just misleading, that's all.

Honda's always rate better than the competition in there.

umm, u sure? read below, LOL

Tuesday March 12, 5:55 pm Eastern Time
Press Release
SOURCE: Consumer Reports
2001 Model Year Reliability Snapshot: Consumer Reports' Annual Reliability Survey Finds Narrowest Gap Yet Between Domestic, European Makes
Japanese makes once again have lowest average number of problems per 100 cars; Most common complaints overall in '01 were squeaks, rattles and leaks
YONKERS, N.Y.--(AutomotiveWire)--March 12, 2002-- HOW CONSUMERS REPORTS (CR) TESTS CARS:

CR maintains its IMPARTIALITY by buying all the cars it tests from dealers, just as consumers do, accepting no ads, and barring the commercial use of its reports.
CR automotive EXPERTS test all cars at our track and on public roads, for performance, convenience, and comfort, with safety in mind.
CR surveys its subscribers to provide RELEVANT information on auto reliability, dealer satisfaction, and more.
CR is published by Consumers Union, an INDEPENDENT, NON-PROFIT champion for consumers.
In compiling a snapshot of 2001 brands and models, Consumer Reports annual auto reliability survey has found the narrowest margin yet between domestic and European nameplates. European- and American-branded vehicles averaged 23 and 24 problems per 100 vehicles, respectively. Models made by Japanese companies averaged only 15 problems per 100. The average for all 2001 models was 21 problems per 100 vehicles.

CR's most recent survey recorded our readers' experiences with 512,000 vehicles, spanning model years 1994 through 2001.

Among domestic brands for 2001 models, Chrysler was best with 22 problems per 100, followed by GM (23) and Ford (26). Some Chrysler cars had few problems when new but became troublesome over time. The 2001 300M, for instance, was the most reliable American vehicle, but the 1999 version is on Consumer Reports' Used Cars to Avoid list.

Among the 2001 models, the most complaints were for items that Consumer Reports groups as body integrity: rattles, squeaks, and leaks. Among middle-aged and older (1998 and earlier) models, electrical components -- the battery, charging system, wiring, and lights -- prompted the most complaints.

Among Japanese manufacturers, the best were Toyota and Subaru, with 12 problems per 100, followed by Honda and Nissan, with 14. Among European makers, Saab had the fewest complaints, 14 problems per 100, but on the strength of only one model, the 9-5.

The most reliable vehicle in the survey was the Nissan-made Infiniti QX4 sport-utility vehicle, with a rate of only 4 problems per 100 vehicles. Another SUV, the Toyota-made Lexus RX300, was second, with 5 problems per 100. The most reliable passenger car was the Infiniti I30, with just 6 problems per 100.

Of the 142 new vehicles for which Consumer Reports had sufficient data, the midsized Audi A6 2.7T was the worst car (and second-worst vehicle overall), with 42 problems per 100 vehicles. The two-wheel-drive Ford Explorer Sport Trac was the worst vehicle in the survey, with 44 problems per 100 vehicles.

Trouble Spots

Consumer Reports refined the 2001 survey to reflect the changing automotive landscape. Body rust, for instance, has ceased to be a major problem, so Consumer Reports eliminated it as one of the 14 separate trouble spots asked about and grouped it with paint and trim. In its place, Consumer Reports added power equipment (such as power windows, locks, seats, and audio systems) as a new entry. Manually operated equipment is still included in the body-hardware category.

For the past few surveys, Consumer Reports has asked about air-bag problems, including malfunctions not related to accidents. The problem rate has been reassuringly low. Consumer Reports will keep tracking this to see how well air-bag systems hold up.

The April Auto Issue ($4.95) goes on sale March 19th through June 19th and is generally available where magazines are sold. It may also be ordered online at www.consumerreports.org/newcars.

To subscribe to Consumer Reports, call 1-800-234-1645. Information and articles from the magazine can be accessed online at www.ConsumerReports.org.

Yonkers, NY - Several Consumer Reports April issue stories and corresponding news releases are accessible to journalists via fax on demand. To request instructions, send an e-mail to [email protected] or call 914-378-2430. Available stories: Crash Test, Top Picks, Best & Worst Used Cars, and a fact sheet, ``Anatomy of a Rating.''

Originally posted by LiuBei
The new Civic Si's are by far the best for the money. Plain and simple, you can't go wrong with a Honda.

You mean plain and ugly!

for the price I say the neon srt

hmmmm doen'st the SE-R spec V cost less then the Si? and it comes with 4 doors, and it has a LSD? and is a straight up better looking car and is a better performer. like what motortrend says. honda is relyin too much on aftermarket support to make their cars fast. where they just got lazy. and 16 inch rims? what da hell is that? thats waaaay too small to prevent side wall flexing during cornering and radial support for aceleration and braking.

WRX gets to 60 in about 6.3 sec

There is going to be a 287 bhp version coming out this year (or next) of the WRX

About the USDM WRXs. A friend of mine owns one and the best time he could muster on the 1/4 was a 15.1~ I ran a few in it and my best was a 14.4~ Now thats probly just because I suck at drag racing, but I don't see how a car with 170 horses at the wheel (Thats the high end average of what WRX owners get on a dyno) can run mid to high 13s. I may be smoking crack so feel free to flame me and correct me (I know you will :D )

Well, I can't help but be entertained by the exchange of all these different ideas, that I can't help but give my own opinion regarding this subject. I am by no means an expert, just a car nut like most of you guys out there with my own tastes, so bear with me ok?

I definitely would go for the Nissan, for several reasons:

With a large displacement four cylinder, it can make good power at relatively low rev ranges, compare to VTEC or turbo equipped cars, which have to revved to their upper ranges to reach their power peaks. The lack of a turbo also makes it somewhat more reliable (debatable, I know, but presumbably, its one less component to break down), at it has better torque than anything from Honda or Acura.

It has four doors....I must be getting old (just in my late twenties though) but 4 doors seems to be much more practical and comfortable than a two doors. Yes...it is less sporty, but that's the tradeoff....

Its a Nissan, so its up in the ranks with the top manufacturers as far as reliability is concerned, at par with Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura.

Just the fact that its a Nissan reduces its "rice factor" significantly. Not that it can't be ricy, but seems like most riceboys prefer Hondas. Hondas are great, but I would prefer to be different, and put greater value into torque than horsepower anyday....except when it comes to Formula 1 racing.

The Neon and the Focus....are they American or not? Frankly I don't care, because its not a factor as far as car "goodness" is concerned, but am not to hot about the way they look....give me a Dodge Viper or a Ford Mustang GT anyday......

There can't be a car which excels in every category, so for me, as far as my tastes are concerned, the Nissan Spec V is the best compromise....nuff said.

I may not agree with what you say....but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.... - Voltaire

Obviously the Sentra SE-R is a better value than the Impreza or any of the above, exept the Focus SVT that is considered more Sport than the GTI and Neon etc (says Car&Driver etc). Just wait the new Mitsu Evo comes, with those huge tires and with a much better styling; is the best

Originally posted by Euro19
Obviously the Sentra SE-R is a better value than the Impreza

explain... they cost the same, but the impreza has awd, is quicker in a 1/4 mile, is quicker on an autocross course, is quicker on a rally course, is safer, and is more reliable. i like the sentra and all, but i dont see how its a better value.

Originally posted by ldelaysionl


explain... they cost the same, but the impreza has awd, is quicker in a 1/4 mile, is quicker on an autocross course, is quicker on a rally course, is safer, and is more reliable. i like the sentra and all, but i dont see how its a better value.

I agree with everything above, but isn´t the SE-R cheaper than the WRX? They can´t be in the same price range because Nissan isn´t going to sell any of them!

i see the problem... were talking about different cars. okay i agree the sentra is a much better value than the wrx, but i was talking about the non-turbo 2.5 liter impreza

The SE-R is a lot cheaper, but also a lot slower. PLUS its FRONT WHEEL DRIVE, so it really cant compare to the WRX.

The WRX is one of the best performance per dollar values in america. At 23k, you get sub 6 second acceleration, awd, a turbocharged engine, rally-inspired handling, and sedan practicality.

ill go wit the neon or the Spec-v:bandit: :smoka: :smoker2: :ylsuper

id say neon cus it looks good

Originally posted by Ando_Rules
id say neon cus it looks good

I really don´t think te Neon looks good IMO. Maybe only the back (lowered 10 inches) :flash:

I'm gonna go with the protege. Because all that really matters here is the handling. Mazda, toyota, nissan, honda, it's useless comparing quality. They all have great quality. And if you want a car for drag racing you really shouldn't be looking at any of these.

So whats really left? handling. And I'm pretty sure the protege would take the closest competetion, the SE-R. I think it was motor trend that did the slalom comparison last month between a bunch of cars and the protege(not even the turbo model) beat out pretty much everything besides teh GT2. It even took out the vette.

So, for me all that really matters is handling, and mazda is definitly the king as far as FWD handling is concerned.

mazda is definitly the king as far as FWD handling is concerned.

i dunno, honda and toyota have released the superior machinery in terms of handling, at least here in europe

GT2? Vette? Then would you please post a link to that comparison here? I know a protoge loses to a miata in the slalom.

Originally posted by CAptynCrunch

So whats really left? handling. And I'm pretty sure the protege would take the closest competetion, the SE-R. I think it was motor trend that did the slalom comparison last month between a bunch of cars and the protege(not even the turbo model) beat out pretty much everything besides teh GT2. It even took out the vette.

So, for me all that really matters is handling, and mazda is definitly the king as far as FWD handling is concerned.

Well the comparison was acturly done last year, but yes the Protege "MP3" beat out everyone, yes even the vette. It scored better then the vette, i was surprise to read that. i think the comparison was 10 best cars for under 25k. it had everything from the Altima to the WRX. Had some good reading too. I did a comparison on the Mp3 V's Spec V (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/t41495.html)

But during the comparo the Spec V wasnt out yet so it was left out. Besides that the Spec V i feel is better over all, not to mentions is superior in some spec's too.

In a recent R&T comparison, the SVT Focus and Tiburon beat the Spec V in the slalom, with the Focus earning a higher G rating on the skidpad.

Well for me it came down to either the Spec v or the Mazdaspeed. I pick Spec v because, i think it will be faster and if not faster very close. Spec v handles very well to not as good as the mazdaspeed though. But the mazdaspeed doesn't look as good. Its a close call between these to cars but the mazdaspeed is gonna coast more, so buy the spec v for cheaper and put a nismo turbo on and say bye bye to anything in its class.

And for the rsx type-s not being in this class i agree except for the performance. I have a spec v and raced a rsx type-s 2 times and beat him by a car lenght both times. I'm stock and he had an intake. Prolly won because we have WAY more torque.

And as for the 0-60 on a spec v being 7.2 stock i disagree.
Motortrend says 6.9 and this show i saw on speed vision called autoweek said coming in just under 7 seconds. And a friend said he ran a 6.8.
I think its faster than 7 seconds and 1/4 times stock im seeing people run like 15.2 all stock.
And somone with only a exhaust and intake ran a 14.9 and has the slip to prove it at

http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=002522

You probably won b/c he cant shift well. RSX type-s gets to 60 in 6.3 sec

I don't thinki he messed up two times in a row. And I know other people that have spec v's who beat rsx type-s before. There not that fast.

I've driven them both...hard. I can say the RSX is noticeably faster, if you know how to rev it for a good start. The Spec V has more torque so it'll probably win in a short dash from 0 rpm

Well both times we raced it ended when i was doin bout 80 or 90 nad still had a good lead and he wasn't pulling. So how often do you go over 90 in a race? Around my place not to often.

I would have to say that AWD Mazdaspeed Protege. I noticed that the AWD system was made by Fuji. Fuji Heavy Industry is who makes Subaru. If that WRX is too good for this category, the AWD Mazdaspeed Protege is the closest thing to it!

Mazda might as well take the proven Subaru system. Subaru knows what they are doing. Oh yeah, I am a huge WRC fan, and 2002 Subaru Legacy GT owner. AWD is the only way to go!

Cmotif <><