The Minutemen return...

...this time, to protect our borders here, in the South.

http://abc15.com/news/index.asp?did=17498

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Volunteers begin arriving in effort to use volunteer civilians to patrol Arizona-Mexico border

TOMBSTONE, Ariz. (AP) -- At least 100 volunteers registered by Friday afternoon for a monthlong effort to patrol the Mexican border for illegal immigrants and smugglers, an organizer of the project said.

The idea, according to organizers of the Minuteman Project, is for the volunteers to fan out across 23 miles of the San Pedro Valley to watch the border and report any illegal activity to federal agents -- an exercise that some law enforcement authorities and others fear could lead to vigilante violence.

Many of the volunteers were recruited over the Internet and some plan to be armed. Rallies and orientation for the volunteers are planned over the weekend; the patrols are to begin Monday.

Organizers originally said the Minuteman Project would draw upward of 800 participants, drawing skepticism from human rights activists and authorities who have seen similar efforts flop in the past.

Jim Gilchrist, a retired accountant from California who organized the project, said at least 100 volunteers had registered and dozens more were in town. There was no immediate way to independently verify the count.

Volunteers had been expected to keep arriving throughout the day, and it was difficult to distinguish them from counter-protesters and the merely curious.

During orientation, volunteers heard speakers supporting the project, including Bay Buchanan, chairwoman of the conservative American Cause organization and sister of former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan.

"You have accomplished an enormous amount already," she said, noting the effort had drawn the attention of Mexican President Vicente Fox, who has vowed to take legal action against migrant-hunting vigilantes in Arizona.

Colorado Republican Rep. Tom Tancredo, a supporter of tougher border enforcement, praised the group, telling them: "You are not vigilantes, you are heroes in my book."

The Arizona-Mexico border is considered the most vulnerable stretch of the 2,000-mile southern border. Of the 1.1 million illegal immigrants caught by the Border Patrol last year, 51 percent crossed into the country at the Arizona border.

Some people in this town nearly 30 miles north of the border, best known as the site of the 1881 shootout at the OK Corral, eagerly awaited the volunteers' arrival as a way to boost the local economy.

Human rights activists expressed concern that the volunteers may abuse immigrants or get into violent confrontations with smugglers.

Robert Ordway said he was volunteering in response to the federal government's admonition to be vigilant following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

"The newspapers and the TV cameras are hoping something will go wrong and somebody will get hurt or somebody will do something stupid and that will draw attention," said Ordway, from nearby Sierra Vista. "That ain't going to happen. We're not here to do that. We are here to support the Border Patrol, support the laws of the country and that's what we're after."

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The project's website:
http://www.minutemanproject.com/

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I am in agreement with the volunteers. All the shit has to stop. Here's a local scribe's sentiments that I totally agree with: http://www.azcentral.com/news/columns/articles/0402roberts02.html

Here's an opposing view: http://www.suntimes.com/output/greeley/cst-edt-greel181.html

That last one calls the volunteers "anti-immigrant bigots". I call him "moron". Of course, if Fox is actually going to mobilize his military, in order to back people attempting to break laws, then what does say about him? What does that say about Bush, who is one of his strongest supporters? But then again, I can't blame him, as the immigrants in the US regularly send BILLIONS of US-dollar's worth of support back to Mexico.

That last commentary also says:
"President Bush has suggested the only sensible way to control the flow of border crossings: a guest worker program with amnesty provisions and eventual opportunity for citizenship."

WTF?

My main hope, is that this finally wakes up the chimp up top, and he can get off his ass, and do something for the people, as opposed to serving his party's, and his friend's interests.

Nevermind my hopes. Found this shortly after I posted the above:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050324-122200-6209r.htm

He opposes these "vigilantes" who are only trying to protect their country's borders, yet he plans on policing all of Iraq for the next decade?

I will hold on to my previous assessment of his Administration as moronic.

I heard about this on O'Reiley and I think it's a good idea. People are getting sick of the illegal flow into this country and it has been obvious for a while the government isn't going to do anything about it. It's good to see people taking charge and doing something about it. I tip my hat to these people.

People are getting sick of the illegal flow into this country...

That's basically my sentiment.

Living in Arizona, it's almost a monthly thing, hearing about the Coyotes (human smugglers), and some house of theirs that got raided, that had at least 50-odd people living in misery, basically as slaves, until they pay off the people that got them in here.

It's a lucrative business. I heard a report that a decent Coyote team makes an average of 100K every month, to every 3 months, and most of it is earned by the migrants WHILE IN THE USA. That's 100K of non-taxable income, that would have otherwise remained in the US. I take consolation in the fact that the smugglers buy their cars and houses in the US. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

With that much influx of people, how many do you think might have been possible terrorists? It's not like terrorists can't afford the "smuggling bill".

Yee doggies! Lets Gid us sam mexi-cans!

How dare we allow people to come in this country and work for next to nothing. All it does is enable some people to keep their business and in turn give more jobs to legal citizens. Our country wouldnt be where it is today if it wasnt for illegal immigrants and the work they do so screw them! Lets let a bunch of rednecks patrol the boarders, sure thats going to end peacefully.

Yee doggies! Lets Gid us sam mexi-cans!

Lets let a bunch of rednecks patrol the boarders, sure thats going to end peacefully.

nice sterotyping and bigotry will always get you somewhere here

Man I wish we had a program like this in So Cal.

Yee doggies! Lets Gid us sam mexi-cans!

If I remember right this isn't a huge hunt or anything but a patrole.

How dare we allow people to come in this country and work for next to nothing. All it does is enable some people to keep their business and in turn give more jobs to legal citizens.

How can there be more jobs for legal citizens if the illegals are taking up all of them? The only things I can think of where Mexicans work are like in the chicken farm industry and stuff like that where long hours of hard labor are required. They don't get the shaft though and are at least paid minimum wage.

Our country wouldnt be where it is today if it wasnt for illegal immigrants and the work they do so screw them!

Yeah, our country wouldn't be anywhere where it is today. We all wouldn't be bending over backwards to translate everything into Spanish because the illegals won't learn basic English. We wouldn't be waisting tax money to let them learn to drive and have other privlages that only citizens should enjoy.

Lets let a bunch of rednecks patrol the boarders, sure thats going to end peacefully.

That's a nice attitude you have about this thing. Do you also think neighborhood watch programs in cities should be abolished so it won't take away the jobs of a few police officers?

Yee doggies! Lets Gid us sam mexi-cans!

How dare we allow people to come in this country and work for next to nothing. All it does is enable some people to keep their business and in turn give more jobs to legal citizens. Our country wouldnt be where it is today if it wasnt for illegal immigrants and the work they do so screw them! Lets let a bunch of rednecks patrol the boarders, sure thats going to end peacefully.
Did you read the part I wrote, where it says the smugglers are earning 100K almost every month off the people they have smuggled in? That money's coming from HERE, genius. All the loose borders are allowing is for human feces like the Coyotes, to exploit other humans, for their own gain. Not to mention allowing free rein for potential terrorists to come in, unscathed.

Did you read the part I wrote, where it says the smugglers are earning 100K almost every month off the people they have smuggled in? That money's coming from HERE, genius. All the loose borders are allowing is for human feces like the Coyotes, to exploit other humans, for their own gain. Not to mention allowing free rein for potential terrorists to come in, unscathed.
Good point.

Furthermore with all that money going around, IMHO a volunteer 'minuteman' is MUCH easier to bribe than the real, salaried, government-employed border patrol.

I think the states should take some responisbilty atleast. I mean, they have national guards units they could easily station along the border to watch for them. (even though they may not have nearly as much right now).

I like the idea. At least someone is doing something to stop the influx of illegals.

If I remember right this isn't a huge hunt or anything but a patrole.

Many of the volunteers were recruited over the Internet and some plan to be armed.

And you think this isnt going to end up being a hunt?

How can there be more jobs for legal citizens if the illegals are taking up all of them? The only things I can think of where Mexicans work are like in the chicken farm industry and stuff like that where long hours of hard labor are required. They don't get the shaft though and are at least paid minimum wage.
There are ALWAYS plenty of jobs out there the citizens that dont have jobs arent going to get a job. And illegal immigrants DO NOT get paid minimum wage, if they do where your from then the people giving them jobs need to sit back and think about it for a minute. I have worked with plenty of illegal mexicans here and they get paid nowhere near minimum wage.

We wouldn't be waisting tax money to let them learn to drive and have other privlages that only citizens should enjoy.

One key word in this whole thing is ILLEGAL these are things that we do for legal immigrants, not the illegal ones.

That's a nice attitude you have about this thing. Do you also think neighborhood watch programs in cities should be abolished so it won't take away the jobs of a few police officers?
In my opinion the ammount of good that happens (for the illegals and their families) outweighs the bad that happens here. Im all about the greater good of mankind, not one country.

Did you read the part I wrote, where it says the smugglers are earning 100K almost every month off the people they have smuggled in? That money's coming from HERE, genius. All the loose borders are allowing is for human feces like the Coyotes, to exploit other humans, for their own gain.
Hey if people are willing to pay the money then thats their thing. Is the money coming out of your pocket? Then why do you care what people do with their own money?

Not to mention allowing free rein for potential terrorists to come in, unscathed. Which based on the ammount of terrorist attacks we have here each and every day that is such a concern! Do you really think that if we tighten up our boarders that "terrorists" will say "Wait a second, we cant get in through mexico....lets just give up and go home"

Did you read the part I wrote, where it says the smugglers are earning 100K almost every month off the people they have smuggled in? That money's coming from HERE, genius. All the loose borders are allowing is for human feces like the Coyotes, to exploit other humans, for their own gain. Not to mention allowing free rein for potential terrorists to come in, unscathed.

Funny you said that. Just reading a Clancy novel (Teeth of the Tiger) where a group of terrorists infiltrate the US with the help of coyotes.

The southern states used to have their own ways of dealing with the crimes of a single race too....Perhaps you could ask the KKK to man these border patrols.

Or maybe you guys should just build a huge wall? It worked for the Russians for a while in East Germany.

The 'terrorism' argument is a bit lame.The Canadian border is far longer, and because there isn't an immigrant issue there, it's nowhere near as heavily patrolled.Rest assured that if the terrorists want it bad enough, they'll come again.A few zealots spending a month waving their guns and looking ferociously at the mexican border is little more than racist tokenism.The demand for cheap labor by unscrupulous employers will always ensure that there ids an incentive for them to come.

The border with mexico is a shade under 2000 miles. 1000 volunteers working 8 hour days would have to cover 6 miles each on average to achieve 24 hour coverage.That just leaves 95,000 miles of coastline and
5000 miles of border with Canada.Add to that the dozens of international airports receiving millions of passengers a day and hundreds of seaports handling thousands of ships, and you don't have a border, you have a sieve.

Good luck to the 11,000 border patrol officers assigned to protect all of this.With the pressure from racist agitators ensuring that a disproportionate amount of resources are deployed in a few perceived trouble spots, the rest of your country has nowhere near enough professional border forces.

Hey if people are willing to pay the money then thats their thing. Is the money coming out of your pocket? Then why do you care what people do with their own money?
You are truly challenged. You speak of benefits of cheap labor. Do you really think that the shady business owners willing to cheat the law, in order to keep more profits, give back the extra money they earn to the economy?

Which based on the ammount of terrorist attacks we have here each and every day that is such a concern! Do you really think that if we tighten up our boarders that "terrorists" will say "Wait a second, we cant get in through mexico....lets just give up and go home"

Again. Dumbass assumptions, and half-baked assessments.

Let's start with this: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24987

And I'll emphasize with this: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/01/19/search_underway_for_six_who_may_pose_terrorist_thr eat_to_boston/

The attacks are not happening, because the Feds are doing their jobs, chasing them down, or making them lay-low.

But see, what you're not understanding is...you are merely increasing the workload on our already-stretched agencies, when by simply lessening their entrances into our country, could have saved all the man-hours wasted in chasing terrorists, when THEY ARE ALREADY HERE.

As for attacks, you have any idea how long 9-11 was planned for? What are you expecting, an attack every month? Will that make you support the Minutemen then?

Do I think they will spend the money they keep? Yes, is that putting money back into the economy? Yes.

The mexican boarder has nothing to do with terrorism, as taranaki said, the mexico boarder is 2000 miles, the rest of our borders are around....100,000 miles. Yep tightening up that boarder is going to solve every worldly problem!

What will it take for me to support this group? God I love this question! How about every person who supports not helping out your fellow man who is just looking for work (in this case the minutemen) shoots themselves in the head or the foot (their choice), then I will support them.

Again. Dumbass assumptions, and half-baked assessments.



Almost on a par with your assertion that just because an Arab is attempting to enter America illegally, he's a terrorist.

Almost on a par with your assertion that just because an Arab is attempting to enter America illegally, he's a terrorist.


:eek7:


WTF are you talking about? I performed a CTRL+F search on my posts, and I didn't find the word "arab" anywhere. I did find "terrorists", however. If you look at one of my links, it shows that three out of 5 terrorists that came through the Mexican border, were chinese, and the rest were Iraqi, which isn't an Arab, as they usually come from K.S.A., as in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Unlike most of the children you uselessly argue against in here on a regular basis, I do know the distinction between people, and the distinction between a group that I feel threatens my country, and a nationality.

Before you lift a finger to reply to me again, please refrain from putting words where they weren't, or were never intended to be, in the first place.

I think it's a good idea, if for nothing else than getting the government moving, as pointed out in carrrnuttt's articles.

I have no issue with people coming into the country legally; however illegal entry is another thing. I certainly don't begrudge anyone the opportunity to better their life and feed their families; but there are rules to be followed when you go to a different country.

Naki, being in an island nation I think leaves you in the position of misunderstanding the situation; it isn't possible for people to just walk to the area you live in and start working. But imagine that 3 cruise ships per day docked in Wellington harbor, and started unloading people that were there to work, illegally. I think you'd want something done.

Do I think they will spend the money they keep? Yes, is that putting money back into the economy? Yes.
But the point you're missing is that these people, coyotes, are making $1.2 Million per year, from their illegal activities, and paying no taxes on that income. They're no better than any other criminal that's profiting from illegal activities.


The mexican boarder has nothing to do with terrorism, as taranaki said, the mexico boarder is 2000 miles, the rest of our borders are around....100,000 miles. Yep tightening up that boarder is going to solve every worldly problem!
One point not made is that the US is far from most other countries by sea. As far as terrorists are concerned, we can probably discount the Alaskan coast. The east and west coasts aren't really reachable by your average terrorist by boat. The Canadian border, though porous, isn't (yet) the immigration nightmare that the US/Mexico border is. So where do you put your efforts? Problem areas. The 2000 mile border with Mexico is porous, has a huge influx of illegals, and I have to agree that it's a strong possibility that terrorists will attempt to use that border to enter the country to do their dirty work.


What will it take for me to support this group? God I love this question! How about every person who supports not helping out your fellow man who is just looking for work (in this case the minutemen) shoots themselves in the head or the foot (their choice), then I will support them.
That's just ignorant.

And "boarder" refers to someone that is paying rent to live in someone else's house.

Of course people will be worried about the "cowboys" having a field day and starting to shoot people coming across. But as I stated earlier, they have spurred the government to do something about the situation, something that wasn't done before.

Sivic, did you actually read the articles that carrrnuttt posted? Bush signed a law that said he'd put 2000 new border patrolmen on duty. His budget for '06 allowed for less than 300. Now as a direct result of these citizens, he is making good on the legislation that he signed.

If the US government can't follow its own rules, then it is up to citizens like the Minutemen to do something about it.

Carrrnuttt- I see once again the usual suspect in a faraway land has passed judgement on us. Boy I feel bad, huh? But to those in other states that barely hear about the coyotes and major influx of undocumenteds, they have no concept of the daily impact on southern Arizona. Beyond the crime of the smugglers and their obscene profits, they leave bands of people to die in the heat of summer on a regular basis after exploiting theie meager finances. The crime cause by the passing through intruders is not to be dismissed either as burglary, theft and other sundry offenses have been a sore spot for southern Arizona for a long time. As your brother across the river I certainly understand.

You're right Twitch, there is the matter of the (hundreds?thousands?) number of illegals that are killed or abandoned each year; it may actually be a humanitarian act that the minutemen are involved in.

We've needed serious immigration reform for a long time now. My brother-in-law has been married for almost three years now and his wife still isn't eligible to be a citizen. Its ridiculous that its so difficult to come to this country legally and follow the rules and have it take so long. Its even more ridiculous to let people come here illegally and get any type of amnesty for their illegal activities. They first need to streamline the process so those that want to come here can. At the same time, beefed up security along the boarders to stem the tide of people breaking the law.













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Carrrnuttt- I see once again the usual suspect in a faraway land has passed judgement on us. Boy I feel bad, huh? .

Grow up,fool. :disappoin

:eek7:


WTF are you talking about? I performed a CTRL+F search on my posts, and I didn't find the word "arab" anywhere. I did find "terrorists", however. If you look at one of my links, it shows that three out of 5 terrorists that came through the Mexican border, were chinese, and the rest were Iraqi, which isn't an Arab, as they usually come from K.S.A., as in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Unlike most of the children you uselessly argue against in here on a regular basis, I do know the distinction between people, and the distinction between a group that I feel threatens my country, and a nationality.

Before you lift a finger to reply to me again, please refrain from putting words where they weren't, or were never intended to be, in the first place.


Headline of the first link that you posted

'Arab terrorists'
crossing border

the story goes on to talk about 'potential'terrorists.

In the second link an unsubstantiated report claims that 5 ['terrorists' blah blah blah.......KEY WORD -UNSUBSTANTIATED

Before you try to lay into me again carrrnuttt, I suggest you learn to read the press exactly aqs it is written instead of skimming it and filtrering only that which applies to your beliefs.You put the links in your post that made fanciful claims about 'Arab terrorists', when there is clearly no evidence to back the suggestions.Trying to claim that you never said it is disingenuous.If you are going to table weak links as part of your argument ,at least have the spine to back them up when you get called out on them.


The terrorists have beaten the simpletons of the American right.3 1/2 years on from 9/11,your president is still urging you to fight non-existent enemies. There's no evidence to suuggest that one single terrorist ever crossed the Mexican border, or intends to.It's a beat-up, and a lame one at that.

Headline of the first link that you posted

'Arab terrorists'
crossing border

the story goes on to talk about 'potential'terrorists.

In the second link an unsubstantiated report claims that 5 ['terrorists' blah blah blah.......KEY WORD -UNSUBSTANTIATED

Before you try to lay into me again carrrnuttt, I suggest you learn to read the press exactly aqs it is written instead of skimming it and filtrering only that which applies to your beliefs.You put the links in your post that made fanciful claims about 'Arab terrorists', when there is clearly no evidence to back the suggestions.Trying to claim that you never said it is disingenuous.If you are going to table weak links as part of your argument ,at least have the spine to back them up when you get called out on them.


The terrorists have beaten the simpletons of the American right.3 1/2 years on from 9/11,your president is still urging you to fight non-existent enemies. There's no evidence to suuggest that one single terrorist ever crossed the Mexican border, or intends to.It's a beat-up, and a lame one at that.Wow. You are a simpleton. I'd use harsher words, but your sensitive behind will get uppity about it, and I plan on categorizing you from here on end, as one of the "hapless children" that I feel it is useless to argue against - regardless of your age. You can rail all you want after this, but I'm too busy to deal with your single-mindedness.

• I posted what I posted, in opposition of Bush's policies regarding border control. Yet, you talk about the President "urging" me on.

• I posted a national news report, regarding terrorists that did get through. Yet you talk about "There's no evidence to suuggest that one single terrorist ever crossed the Mexican border, or intends to".

• "Arab" was mentioned in one of the articles I posted, and I am now a bigot that thinks all arabs are terrorists. BTW, I did read the article, and I can understand where the title came from:

Arabs have been reported crossing the Arizona border for an unknown period. Border rancher George Morgan encounters thousands of illegals crossing his ranch on a well-used trail. He relates a holiday event: "It was Thanksgiving 1998, and I stepped outside my house and there were over a hundred 'crossers' in my yard. Damnedest bunch of illegals I ever saw. All of them were wearing black pants, white shirts and string ties. Maybe they were hoping to blend in," he chuckled. "They took off, I called the Border Patrol, and a while later, an agent, Dan Green, let me know that they had caught them. He said that they were all Iranians."

According to Border Patrol spokesperson Rob Daniels, "Ten Egyptians were arrested recently near Douglas, Arizona. Each had paid $7,000 to be brought from Guatemala into Mexico and then across the border."

According to the San Diego Union-Tribune, hours after the 9-11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, an anonymous caller led Mexican immigration agents to 41 undocumented Iraqis waiting to cross into the United States.

The Associated Press reported that Mexican immigration police detained 13 citizens of Yemen on Sept. 24, 2001, who were reportedly waiting to cross the border into Arizona. The Yemenis were arrested Sunday in Agua Prieta, across the border from Douglas. Luis Teran Balaguer, assistant head of immigration in the northern state of Sonora, said, "The evidence indicates that they have nothing to do with terrorist activities."

Oh, did YOU notice that the words 'Arab terrorists' were in quotation marks? Did that NOT tell you that they were quoting the gist of reports that THEY were hearing? Now tell, me HOW THE HELL DID THAT TRANSLATE INTO ME ACCUSING EVERY ARAB CRSSING THE BORDER AS TERRORISTS? Take a look at the last paragraph I quoted from the article:

The Yemenis were arrested Sunday in Agua Prieta, across the border from Douglas. Luis Teran Balaguer, assistant head of immigration in the northern state of Sonora, said, "The evidence indicates that they have nothing to do with terrorist activities."

You talk about unsubstantiated, but here you are, ranting about an issue you have NO fucking clue about, considering the issue is LOCAL news, to me. I know where the migrants line-up, in the mornings, to wait to get picked-up for cheap construction, or landscaping jobs, while dilligent citizens are at the local job-centers, waiting - disadvantaged by the fact that they went through paperwork to have to pay tax, and by law, employers have to pay half of their Social Security, and Medicare - which is an issue unto itself.

You talk about arrogant Americans. Well...how arrogant are YOU, assuming that you have ANY idea, of what is going on. You know how many of these migrants died in the desert from bandits, and the elements, because Bush, and Fox give them false hopes of "amnesty", and "work programs"?

I might not agree with all of the Minutemen's motivations, but I sure am hoping they'd get the results I am hoping for.

How about you post some local news of yours instead, and I'll let you be in there, k?

AHHH SON OF A BITCH! I tried to post a long post, little did I know my wireless internet decided to disconnect and I lost it...damnit... heres the cliff notes...

I am now a bigot that thinks all arabs are terrorists.
Hey you said it not me! Im kidding, I saw the shot, had to take it.

Just because someone isnt from this country doesnt mean they cant have an opinion about whats going on in this country. If anything we should be listening to those people the most, at least based on how other countries view our country.

There ARE jobs out there. The problem is exactly what you said, that people are sitting in their local job centers waiting for an employer to find them. If they had the drive that the mexicans you referred to, to line up in the morning looking for cheap labor then they would have a job. Honestly, getting a job is as easy as going around until you get a call back. I have done it several times myself in a college town where if you go on campus and ask everyone will tell you there are no jobs.

• I posted a national news report, regarding terrorists that did get through. Yet you talk about "There's no evidence to suuggest that one single terrorist ever crossed the Mexican border, or intends to".



NO YOU DID NOT

When are the duller people on this board going to realise the difference between vague accusations and criminal convictions?

Show me a news report of persons caught crossing the border and subsequently charged and convicted of terrorism.If you can't, it's just anecdotal.

I wish the right would stop talking shit and come up with some facts.

Show me a news report of persons caught crossing the border and subsequently charged and convicted of terrorism.If you can't, it's just anecdotal.

So, lets say someone is caught with 50 kilograms of cocaine in their vehicle. According to your path of reasoning, we couldn't assume they intended to distribute it because they weren't actually distributing it when we caught them. We really couldn't assume they would even USE the cocaine eventually, since they weren't using either, just transporting. Nevermind that they would never get the chance to use or distribute since we caught them and took the cocaine. But I really find the "terrorists crossing the mexican border" issue somewhat of a "bonus" issue if you will, although that doesn't exactly represent what I'm trying to say. Anyhow...

Try to stay with me now, this could get difficult:

Crimes/Criminals should be punished -> Crossing the border illegally is a crime -> Therefore, people who cross the border illegally should be punished, i.e. deported. I don't see how some citizens of this country who decide to take action against criminals, that's right criminals, can be racist. After all, they live in Arizona so the only border they could reasonably be expected to volunteer for would be the Arizona/Mexico border. Bear in mind, however, it is not only Mexicans that pay to be brought across our borders, many other nationalities exploit this weak-point of our immigration system. So perhaps you would do well not to stereotype/generalize people whom you've only read about in an internet news article. Also, I don't mean to assert that all illegal aliens are "bad people", however they are criminals and should be treated as such. All crimes are crimes, no matter what the motivation.

I actually wrote a (somewhat unpopular) thesis on this subject a couple of years ago, and although I don't have it in front of me now, the estimated cost of illegal immigrants (welfare, health care etc.), as I recall, is in the billions range. Billions of dollars paid by natural or legal citizens of the United States to those who came here illegally. Seems like a pretty big deal to me.

I wish the right would stop talking shit and come up with some facts.

No that's funny I would of never thought carrrnuttt was from the right.

But we can show you facts yet you choose to ignore them. Afterall you haven't shown many facts lately.

Just because someone isnt from this country doesnt mean they cant have an opinion about whats going on in this country. If anything we should be listening to those people the most, at least based on how other countries view our country

People from other countries can have opinions of our country. I don't think it should carry the weight some people put on it though. For me it carries very little weight. But that's just me.

There ARE jobs out there. The problem is exactly what you said, that people are sitting in their local job centers waiting for an employer to find them.
You mean they are following the rules this country set up for the unemployed? Shameful. Lazy bastards.

If they had the drive that the mexicans you referred to, to line up in the morning looking for cheap labor then they would have a job.
You mean if they didn't follow the rules and broke the law they would have jobs? Shameful. Lazy bastards.

Honestly, getting a job is as easy as going around until you get a call back. I have done it several times myself in a college town where if you go on campus and ask everyone will tell you there are no jobs.

True. Jobs aren't that hard to find. Legal jobs are probably a lot harder to find in border states than in some college town where the economy is usually a lot better because of the students dollars being spent locally. Now try and compete in that same town where there are thousands of illegal immigrants willing to work for half of what you make and employers willing to break the law to save a few bucks.

These "rules" arent LAWS they arent mandatory. The reason why most of these legal citizens that you are trying to protect go to the labor department is so they can say they have been looking for a job so they can get their welfare check. If they actually got off their lazy asses and looked for a job themselves instead of having to get someone else to do it for them they might have better luck.
Shameful. Lazy bastards.
You took the words right out of my mouth.

Legal jobs are probably a lot harder to find in border states than in some college town where the economy is usually a lot better because of the students dollars being spent locally.
If these people are having such a hard time finding a job, move. If they dont have anything there to hold them down such as a job and they are that hard pressed for money, why not go where there is work? Oh, wait moving would involve actually DOING work, plus the hassle of filling out change of address forms and dealing with the welfare thing, it would just be too much WORK. Americans for the most part are just shamefull, lazy bastards.

True enough; the welfare system has been abused for so long. It's broken. Funny how the people standing in the welfare line waiting won't go wait in line to get some construction or farm work. Then they complain that their jobs have been taken away by a foreign worker.

I say that you can't do something then complain that you did it.

These "rules" arent LAWS they arent mandatory. Neither is working. There are rules set up to follow when you are unemployed to help you get into the system and have the system help you get back employed. I've stood in the unemployment line early in my working life and it wasn't because I was lazy and wanted a free ride. I did it because that was the way it is suppose to be done. I looked for work during the time I was out of work. I was fortunate enough to have had a good education so the job pickings were better for me. Not everyone is that fortunate.

The reason why most of these legal citizens that you are trying to protect go to the labor department is so they can say they have been looking for a job so they can get their welfare check. If they actually got off their lazy asses and looked for a job themselves instead of having to get someone else to do it for them they might have better luck.
Ever visit the labor department? It's not full of people that are too lazy to work. If these people are having such a hard time finding a job, move. Or just cross the border and get a job illegaly right? Better yet why don't the illegals just move? I hear they are hiring in India right now. If they dont have anything there to hold them down such as a job and they are that hard pressed for money, why not go where there is work? Like in mexico? There are crappy jobs all over down there around the border where a lot of American companies have moved.


Oh, wait moving would involve actually DOING work, plus the hassle of filling out change of address forms and dealing with the welfare thing, it would just be too much WORKThat must be why the illegals just cross the border and come here for work instead of doing it the way they are suppose to and come over here legally.



. Americans for the most part are just shamefull, lazy bastards.
You must be thinking of the group you hang out with.
"Birds of a feather"

Or just cross the border and get a job illegaly right? Better yet why don't the illegals just move?
Exactly, thats what they are doing. They are saying ya know theres better opprotunity on the other side of this border, lets go there. Why cant an american say ya know, theres more work in this state, I think I will move there. Its because they have DRIVE to do things. They will go out and work shit jobs for long hours for little money when half of the people at the labor dept. are looking for air conditioning and long breaks.

That must be why the illegals just cross the border and come here for work instead of doing it the way they are suppose to and come over here legally.
If it were that easy to just say, ya know I think I will be a legal US citizen today, I think they would do that.

You must be thinking of the group you hang out with.
"Birds of a feather"
Yes I do hang out with americans, you hang out with them too.

So, lets say someone is caught with 50 kilograms of cocaine in their vehicle. According to your path of reasoning, we couldn't assume they intended to distribute it because they weren't actually distributing it when we caught them. We really couldn't assume they would even USE the cocaine eventually, since they weren't using either, just transporting. Nevermind that they would never get the chance to use or distribute since we caught them and took the cocaine. But I really find the "terrorists crossing the mexican border" issue somewhat of a "bonus" issue if you will, although that doesn't exactly represent what I'm trying to say. Anyhow...

Try to stay with me now, this could get difficult:

Crimes/Criminals should be punished -> Crossing the border illegally is a crime -> Therefore, people who cross the border illegally should be punished, i.e. deported. I don't see how some citizens of this country who decide to take action against criminals, that's right criminals, can be racist. After all, they live in Arizona so the only border they could reasonably be expected to volunteer for would be the Arizona/Mexico border. Bear in mind, however, it is not only Mexicans that pay to be brought across our borders, many other nationalities exploit this weak-point of our immigration system. So perhaps you would do well not to stereotype/generalize people whom you've only read about in an internet news article. Also, I don't mean to assert that all illegal aliens are "bad people", however they are criminals and should be treated as such. All crimes are crimes, no matter what the motivation.

I actually wrote a (somewhat unpopular) thesis on this subject a couple of years ago, and although I don't have it in front of me now, the estimated cost of illegal immigrants (welfare, health care etc.), as I recall, is in the billions range. Billions of dollars paid by natural or legal citizens of the United States to those who came here illegally. Seems like a pretty big deal to me.

I can't say that I have much sympathy with those who illegally cross borders, biut I have even less time for the demented dickheads who try to tie terrorism into the equation. I've asked the question ,how many illegal immigrants have been convicted of terrorism, but the liars responsible for this gratuitous bullshit have failed to back their racist mouths.Your argument regarding cocaine does noot hold water.For the same argument to work with terrorism,,it would be neccesary to catch a terrorist in possession of weapons and a map of his target.Of course, that has never happened on the mexican border, but that won't stop the dribblers on this forum from waving the 'terrorist' flag to justify a perfectly acceptable ,but totally pointless, show of support for the border patrol.

Exactly, thats what they are doing. They are saying ya know theres better opprotunity on the other side of this border, lets go there. Why cant an american say ya know, theres more work in this state, I think I will move there. Its because they have DRIVE to do things. They will go out and work shit jobs for long hours for little money when half of the people at the labor dept. are looking for air conditioning and long breaks.


If it were that easy to just say, ya know I think I will be a legal US citizen today, I think they would do that


Let me get this straight. They will come over here and work long hours for crap wages and never actually live here or spend the majority of the money they earn in this country because they send it back to their family where they actually live correct? But it's too hard to do it legally?
They don't want to become legal because it's hard? I thought they weren't afraid of hard?


Yes I do hang out with americans, you hang out with them too.

Apparently not the same type you do. The ones I hang out with are hard working intelligent decent people. Lazy doesn't even come to mind when I think of any of them.

Maybe the problem isn't with Americans in general as much as it may be your choice of friends.

I never said it was too hard. What I ment was that if it was possible for them to become legal citizens then they would.

Seriously, dont start bringing in friends into this conversation I said americans for the most part are lazy, and I mean it. Its my opinion, it has nothing to do with my friends or your friends, are your friends the majority of america? No. I said FOR THE MOST PART, not EVERYONE theres a big difference.

Illegals will work long hours for lousy money not because it's attractive, but because that is the situation they are in. The alternative is worse in Latin America in many countries. All this talk about whay don't they do it legally is nonsense because it is extremly difficult, actually nearly impossible to go throught the immigration and naturalization department and legally enter. We're talking years here.

As often happens the point of the thread has wandered off. The original theme was that citizens are volunteering to patrol in concert with the US Border Patrol for free. Good!

I can't say that I have much sympathy with those who illegally cross borders, but I have even less time for the demented dickheads who try to tie terrorism into the equation.

So I'm a dickhead because I think it's alright for citizens to patrole a very unstable border with Mexico? This isn't about Mexicans being terrorist but the whole situation here. Mexicans have been getting into this country illegally for years and with ease. The thing is terrorist know this and could be driving a truck full of T.N.T. across the border and we wouldn't know it.


I've asked the question ,how many illegal immigrants have been convicted of terrorism, but the liars responsible for this gratuitous bullshit have failed to back their racist mouths.

It's not about the illegals but how easily they're coming up here. They did a special on 20/20 and several sleepers found by the F.B.I. since 9/11 were in L.A. and came up here illegally through the border.

Your argument regarding cocaine does not hold water.For the same argument to work with terrorism,,it would be neccesary to catch a terrorist in possession of weapons and a map of his target.Of course, that has never happened on the mexican border, but that won't stop the dribblers on this forum from waving the 'terrorist' flag to justify a perfectly acceptable ,but totally pointless, show of support for the border patrol.

Your argument doesn't hold water. We need to catch the weapons and map of the target on the person before we even call them a terrorist? That's like saying we need to find a bloody knife, list of victims, and full dental records on somebody to even consider them a serial killer. The 9/11 terrorist didn't bring a 747 across the border with notes on them saying "I'm going to blow up the world trade center." They got all their training and supplies here and knew what they were after. So some terrorist may have orders to blow up a building using T.N.T. he got from some hardware store. If we caught him though he wouldn't have any evidence of this.

Illegals will work long hours for lousy money not because it's attractive, but because that is the situation they are in. The alternative is worse in Latin America in many countries.

As often happens the point of the thread has wandered off. The original theme was that citizens are volunteering to patrol in concert with the US Border Patrol for free. Good!

I've stated before I agree that it's a good thing that these citizens have begun to help where the government hasn't lived up to promises, if for no other reason than to make the government live up to its promises.

My sister is a landscape architect in Denver, and her work crews are made up of a lot of illegals; her employer turns a blind eye to the situation; several of them generally use the same social security number.

She has spoken to several of the illegals, who tell her that they make more in a month here than they could in a year in their own country. She says that 14 of them will buy a 3 bedroom house to live cheaply, and send a whole lot of money home to their families.

You're right, the thread has wandered. That's because there are so many interconnected ideas with each subject spoken about. for example and at the risk of causing flames, the comment about driving a truckload of TNT across the border could be countered by the argument that there's already TNT and guns enough in the US, etc etc

As far as tying terrorism to the situation, the idea that terrorists could come across the border easily is a valid one. There are several references to articles showing that Arabs (yes I said Arabs) have been captured entering the country illegally across the border. If any of these (hopefully) peaceful entrants into the US were to commit an act of terrorism, it will be of little solace to be able to say, "I told you so" when thousands are dead because of it. Better to catch them as they enter, and remove the chance that they are terrorists.

They're breaking the laws of this country and should be treated appropriately. The Minutemen are doing a public service by trying to protect our country. I live far from the area, but my brother in law is a border patrolman; the situation is bad, and the border patrol is stretched way too thin.

These "rules" arent LAWS they arent mandatory. The reason why most of these legal citizens that you are trying to protect go to the labor department is so they can say they have been looking for a job so they can get their welfare check. If they actually got off their lazy asses and looked for a job themselves instead of having to get someone else to do it for them they might have better luck.

When was the last time you spent a hour in the labor department? I for one was out of work for 5 weeks last November. I signed up for unemployment which my tax dollars paid for. I had to attend a mandatory meeting regarding retraining. Services were offered to me to secure a different trade that was in demand in my area. In the end I didn't need the services and was rehired by my employer.

How many years have you put in working? And how old are you since you have no knowledge of how the system works?


As for the illegals no one has even thought about why they leave Mexico. Maybe if Mexico took care of there people and paid them a decent wage there would be no illegals. The Mexican government has failed it's people.

To answer your question, 8 and 21...that makes the work I did when I was 13 illegal...damn... better ship me off to mexico and shoot at me when I try to come back. I have no knowledge of the system...yet I used it once before...hmm... Maybe when you went the people actually wanted jobs, when I went the building was full of worthless pieces of shit talking on their cell phone wearing their nice clothes and new shoes laughing, telling the employes there to hold on while they finish their conversation about how fucked up they got last night off of smoking pot and drinking. With the exception of about 2 guys who were in their late 40's. Thats what my experience was like. And that is all I have to base this on.

I think the Minuteman project is a great idea. It should force the immigration issue to the front page. Something needs to be done, whether it's making it easier for them to do it legally, or protecting the border better from the ones doing it illegaly- we can't continue to ingore it.

And the "vigilante" slurs are a bunch of crap. You have a bunch of guys on public property, sitting in a lawn chair with some binoculars and a cell phone. They see some illegal activity and call the border patrol. It's essentially a neighborhood watch. The only vigilante thing would be to deny a man the ability to sit on a lawn chair in his own country even though he was never convicted, tried, or even suspected of a crime.

I guess there is a chance that there could be a shoot-out or something, but from what I've heard, the Minutemen only have some handguns and no rifles. Also, the only way I could see something like that happening would be if the coyotes or some drug-runners get pissed off and take the fight to the Minutemen. At that point, it's self defense. But if all you have is handguns, you're in trouble if anything actually happens.

I'm only a few hours from there right now(Yuma, AZ), so I'm thinking about going out there just to see what it's really about. I'd trust my own observations about what's happening more than any news article or inteverview with the guy who organized it.

Ok, I'm off to lunch- I'm thinking Mexican food sounds good. :rofl:

This is to address the notion that US workers are lazy

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/08/30/ilo.study/


To claim most or even many workers here are lazy based on a few aquantences is no better then claiming most mexicans are illegals.


People are taking advantage of the boarder and it needs to stop. Mexico should take care of its own people better. The US should simplify immigration and come down hard on businesses that knowinly hire illegals.













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Muscletang- since we caught one terrorist red handed coming over the Canadian border to blow up the Statue of Liberty in 2000 why is it logical we have to wait until another is captured on the southern border in order to commence activities to thwart terrorists?

Since I am not reading posts from the person you quoted due to lack of interest of content I did unfortunately read your qoutes. I have to wonder why some here find it is seemingly necessary to verbally degrade, debase and belittle people with other views and flame them with curse words over, and over and over in virtually every post. Explain to me why a person can't say "From my point of view you are dead wrong on this subject!" instead of, to paraphrase- "it's too bad you bunch of dumbazz muthaflockers don't all agree with me. You must be the most stupid azzholes in the cogsuckin muthafuggin world to believe that steaming pile of shiete you're pushing."

Even though the above is pure flame by the rules of the forum it is tolerated. By inaction it is encouraged.

I sincerely ask you gentlemen- why is that accepted? If it's just for shock value it ain't shocking it's just debasing, more so to the perpetrator than the target.

Here's the MinuteMan Project SOP (http://www.minutemanproject.com/SOP.html).

Also an interesting note, and a good reason why we need to control our border:

Gang will target Minuteman vigil on Mexico border
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

NACO, Ariz. -- Members of a violent Central America-based gang have been sent to Arizona to target Minuteman Project volunteers, who will begin a monthlong border vigil this weekend to find and report foreigner sneaking into the United States, project officials say.
James Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran who helped organize the vigil to protest the federal government's failure to control illegal immigration, said he has been told that California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers.
...
The MS-13 gang has established major smuggling operations in several areas along the U.S.-Mexico border and have transported hundreds of Central and South Americans -- including gang members -- into the United States in the past two years. The gang also is involved in drug and weapons smuggling.
Gang members in America have been tied to numerous killings, robberies, burglaries, carjackings, extortion, rapes and aggravated assaults. Authorities said that the gang has earned a reputation from the other street gangs as being particularly ruthless and that it will retaliate violently when challenged.
The MS-13 gang, with 20,000 members nationwide, has risen in recent months to such prominence that U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), the investigative arm of the Department of Homeland Security, has begun a nationwide crackdown on gang members in this country -- as part of a sweeping law-enforcement initiative known as Operation Community Shield.


Someone from another forum I read posted that, I couldn't find a link. But that's a graet example of why we need to check the borders.

So I'm a dickhead because I think it's alright for citizens to patrole a very unstable border with Mexico? This isn't about Mexicans being terrorist but the whole situation here. Mexicans have been getting into this country illegally for years and with ease. The thing is terrorist know this and could be driving a truck full of T.N.T. across the border and we wouldn't know it.



No, if you want to be a dickhead, be a dickhead for persisting with the terrorist = mexican illegal angle.Twitch already backed my argument with his point that the last terrorist caught entering the US came through Canada.The reality is that Mexicans have been getting caught in droves as well, and no terrorist is going to risk falling at the first fence.

The whole 'terrorist' argument is a jack up. Most people look the other way on the mexican issue,because it doesn't harm them to have cheap labor driving down the price of their goods.The whole terrorist lie is bull, dreamed up by the hardcore racists who cant accept that most Americans don't give a fuck whether the Mexicans come or not.

C'mon Naki, I know fighting with Twitch is fun, but you have to admit the articles (previously quoted) detailing the Arabs that were caught at the border showed that more than Mexican citizens are coming up that way.

And while it may be true that no confirmed terrorists have been caught at the border (to our knowledge), the majority of terrorists aren't the high profile guys like Osama and the leader of the 9/11 attacks. Terrorists are recruited from the unknown people; give them some credit for being intelligent (which they are) and sending in some never heard of young guy who will stay beneath the radar of anti-terrorism.

OK so even without terrorism, you have to agree that having a porous border is a bad idea. Did you read my post concerning the cruise ships docking in Wellington harbor? That's what has happened on the southern US border, a flow of people coming into the country illegally.

Forget the jobs they take or the services they get for free; the first crime committed is entering illegally; if we can stop that crime from being committed, then the others will be reduced as well.


IT'S "BORDER" NOT "BOARDER"

OK so even without terrorism, you have to agree that having a porous border is a bad idea. Did you read my post concerning the cruise ships docking in Wellington harbor? That's what has happened on the southern US border, a flow of people coming into the country illegally.

Forget the jobs they take or the services they get for free; the first crime committed is entering illegally; if we can stop that crime from being committed, then the others will be reduced as well.


Just read your point about cruise ships, you seem a little naive about illegal immigrants.The ones that you worry about may well walk over the border, but there is another perfectly obvious way that they get in, and it affacts America just as much as anywhere else.The would bbe immigrants come in legally on visitors visas, ostensibly to stay with friends or visit the tourist spots, and never go home.New Zealand has its own 'Mexicans' in the form of pacific islanders.

the argument that new immigrants 'take our jobs' is another popular myth of the xenophobes.Most of the illegal work being done would not happen if offered to tax paying citizens at legal minimum wage.New Zeal;and's population has grown by 25% since 1985, but curiously, there is no huge pool of displaced new zealand-born ex-employees.Every person in the country ,legally or illegally, contreibutes to the need for a workforce and ultimately helps to create work.Illegal immigrants still have to buy food, drink clothes etc, which creates jobs on its own.As for immigrants working for cash and avoiding tax, again, no biggie.Some of the worlds biggest and allegedly most responsible companies pay legions of accountants big dollars to ensure that they get tax breaks that are better than Jose could ever dream up.In some cases, the government practically gives them money to deter them from taking their business elsewhere.

As to the legality of crossing a border and doing business with an employer without first obtaining permission, I've already indicated that I disapprove.Centralised government only works if everyone lives by the same rules.I dislike ALL of those who avoid paying their share, be they fresh immigrant, the dodgy mechanic who gives discount for cash and fails to declare it as earnings, or corporate thieves who slip huge amounts of money through tax loopholes.

My only argument with the validity of this thread comes when the threat of terrorism is introduced to try and raise support for blanket racism.It's inexcusable, given the level of terrorism that is actually being fought.
As someone once said, 'cry havoc,and let slip the dogs of war'.In other words, convince the public to perceive a threat to be much greaterthan it is, and you can get away with all sorts of nonsense.

Just read your point about cruise ships, you seem a little naive about illegal immigrants.The ones that you worry about may well walk over the border, but there is another perfectly obvious way that they get in, and it affacts America just as much as anywhere else.The would be immigrants come in legally on visitors visas, ostensibly to stay with friends or visit the tourist spots, and never go home.New Zealand has its own 'Mexicans' in the form of pacific islanders.

Naive? Nah. The cruise liner example was just that - an example, and addressing one point only. My point was that if a number of people were obviously entering NZ blatantly and illegally from the get go, you'd likely want something done about stopping it, and might even get involved if it was close enough to home. In that vein the Minutemen are taking action to stop the problem that is obvious from where they stand. Of course there are other ways for people to enter the country then stay there illegally, and many of those methods aren't so obvious. I've read about the pac islanders going to both NZ and AUS, and the difficulty in finding them and tracking them down. It's the same situation as in the US.


the argument that new immigrants 'take our jobs' is another popular myth of the xenophobes. Most of the illegal work being done would not happen if offered to tax paying citizens at legal minimum wage. New Zealand's population has grown by 25% since 1985, but curiously, there is no huge pool of displaced new zealand-born ex-employees. Every person in the country ,legally or illegally, contributes to the need for a workforce and ultimately helps to create work.Illegal immigrants still have to buy food, drink, clothes etc, which creates jobs on its own. As for immigrants working for cash and avoiding tax, again, no biggie. Some of the worlds biggest and allegedly most responsible companies pay legions of accountants big dollars to ensure that they get tax breaks that are better than Jose could ever dream up.In some cases, the government practically gives them money to deter them from taking their business elsewhere.

There is a problem when a person from outside a country can work for less than the going wage (call it minimum or not) and still make much more than they could in their own country. That's the big draw to enter illegally. But working alongside someone that is in the country and isn't paying taxes, while paying taxes while employed legally, isn't right. The fact that the illegals contribute to the economy isn't the point of the discussion here; the point is that they are in the country illegally in the first place and should not be. If a tax-paying citizen were to occupy the position in question, they would pay their taxes and contribute to the economy. The only difference is that the illegal isn't paying taxes on income.


As to the legality of crossing a border and doing business with an employer without first obtaining permission, I've already indicated that I disapprove.Centralised government only works if everyone lives by the same rules.I dislike ALL of those who avoid paying their share, be they fresh immigrant, the dodgy mechanic who gives discount for cash and fails to declare it as earnings, or corporate thieves who slip huge amounts of money through tax loopholes.

Correct; it's all breaking the law.



My only argument with the validity of this thread comes when the threat of terrorism is introduced to try and raise support for blanket racism.It's inexcusable, given the level of terrorism that is actually being fought.

"Blanket Racism"? I haven't heard any racial slurs in this thread against the hispanic peoples to the south. Each post has contained what seems to me a reasonably fair minded opinion that ALL people crossing the southern border illegally should be stopped, regardless of ethnicity. The fact that the vast majority of the illegals crossing the border are Mexican leads itself to using the simplified term "Mexicans" to denote all illegals in this situation, just as your using "Pacific Islanders" sufficed to describe all the people that are illegally immigrating to NZ. New Zealand has its own 'Mexicans' in the form of pacific islanders. I'm sure that not ALL the illegals in NZ are Pac Islanders, though the vast majority may be. I could pick on the fact you used the same generalization as it applies to your situation, but that's unnecessary as IMO the point is made, and clear.


As someone once said, 'cry havoc,and let slip the dogs of war'.In other words, convince the public to perceive a threat to be much greaterthan it is, and you can get away with all sorts of nonsense.

That is true enough, but you'd have to agree that some increase in the perceived threat is often necessary to overcome the inertia of groups of people. It's much like getting a 4 year old to put on their clothes; if you ask them, they might not do it. But start counting, and they hurry up, as they've had a sense of urgency instilled by the counting. Same principal. But, as usual, taken too far too often, it's like the "Little Boy Who Cried Wolf" story: eventually your credibility is eroded.

And let me say it before you do :) Bush is guilty of crying havoc about Iraq. :p

This is to address the notion that US workers are lazy

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/08/30/ilo.study/





Man... What is the matter with the rest of the world? I think they are all a bunch of lazy bums. Why don't they get off their lazy butts and put in some real hours at work?


:wink:

I don't really think that way. (Then again....)

Now back to the minute men. I like the idea of citizens getting fed up with an ineffective government and doing something about it.

That is true enough, but you'd have to agree that some increase in the perceived threat is often necessary to overcome the inertia of groups of people. It's much like getting a 4 year old to put on their clothes; if you ask them, they might not do it. But start counting, and they hurry up, as they've had a sense of urgency instilled by the counting. Same principal. But, as usual, taken too far too often, it's like the "Little Boy Who Cried Wolf" story: eventually your credibility is eroded.
What the arguable child is not realizing that the "perceived" hogwash he is talking about does not apply. Maybe to him, 3K+ miles-or-so away.

I watch the news-stories about what horrors the coyotes have enslaved immigrants go through everyday, about ranchers who are in fear of their homes, from immigrants that burglarize, or steal from their lands, simply because they are right across the border, and in their path.

I even had one of my instructors at my Officers Academy (Correctional), relating a story of how he always has to worry about being carjacked by immigrants that cross the same roads he drives in. In fact, it has happened twice. He was working at one of our Southernmost prisons at the time.

That's not even getting into the terrorism issue. What? Is the above not enough? We have to absolutely prove to the child that terrorists are, in fact not only crossing, but have already crossed the hole-ey borders, before he would drop the whole arguing about protecting OUR BORDERS bit?

I'll give it to him, when he says that the US meddles too much with world affairs.

This time, I am actually sticking to a local issue, and he's STILL bitching?

Tell you what, I don't give a flying fuck whatever ANYBODY does beyond the borders. They can die in the fucking desert beyond, or smuggle all the drugs they want. As soon as it crosses HERE, it's MINE, and any other AMERICAN's concern, k?

Please tell the child to fuck off, and deal with NZ, or wherever he's from.

:shakehead

Most people look the other way on the mexican issue,because it doesn't harm them to have cheap labor driving down the price of their goods.

And you know this for a fact? I would bet you as an American that most Americans don't want the ilegals here since Iam around Americans all day long.

And you know this for a fact? I would bet you as an American that most Americans don't want the ilegals here since Iam around Americans all day long.

People might piss and moan about it, but they don't care enough to do anything about it.Mexicans have been crossing the border for decades, and other than a token border patrol, nothing has been done to prevent it.If the issue mattered, it would have been a political football long ago.For a fraction of the cost of the Iraq fiasco, the US could have a watertight border.The fact that they haven't proves that the issue is less than unimportant to the voters.

Carrrnuttt- You know it's pretty naive to imagine you know all about the issue from a couple media blurbs. Like you say it is a local story to you and YOU have 1st hand knowledge of what's going on. As your neighbor in California, I know what's going on here too. My folks lived in Tucson a long while and I am familiar with the situation there. It's been going on for a long, long time well before the latest media exposure.

I can simply not understand the compulsion for some to post comments on a subject that someone knows absolutely nothing about beyond some google he found. Did someone on fantasy island become infused with devine information to converse on the subject in an intimate manner? This is where I receive the best entertainment as a result of this "I know more about what's going on in your neighborhood than you do even if I'm sitting forlornly at a PC on the dark side of the planet."

How can anyone take someone like that seriously?

Carrrnuttt- You know it's pretty naive to imagine you know all about the issue from a couple media blurbs. Like you say it is a local story to you and YOU have 1st hand knowledge of what's going on. As your neighbor in California, I know what's going on here too. My folks lived in Tucson a long while and I am familiar with the situation there. It's been going on for a long, long time well before the latest media exposure.

I can simply not understand the compulsion for some to post comments on a subject that someone knows absolutely nothing about beyond some google he found. Did someone on fantasy island become infused with devine information to converse on the subject in an intimate manner? This is where I receive the best entertainment as a result of this "I know more about what's going on in your neighborhood than you do even if I'm sitting forlornly at a PC on the dark side of the planet."

How can anyone take someone like that seriously?

Twitch....... You have nothing to say that I give a damn about.Either contribute to the argument and quit sniping at me,or STFU.

Since I am not reading posts from the person you quoted

Have you always been a hypocrite, Twitch, or is flip-flopping a trick that you learned from you miserable coward of a president?

Please tell the child to fuck off, and deal with NZ, or wherever he's from.

:shakehead

If I see a child I will. Perhaps if you see the ignorant aunt with the attitude problem, you'll ask him to grow the fuck up and stop being an asshole.

People might piss and moan about it, but they don't care enough to do anything about it.Mexicans have been crossing the border for decades, and other than a token border patrol, nothing has been done to prevent it.If the issue mattered, it would have been a political football long ago.For a fraction of the cost of the Iraq fiasco, the US could have a watertight border.The fact that they haven't proves that the issue is less than unimportant to the voters.


Isn't this topic about US citizens finally doing something about this problem?

I'm sure you know very little about the American people exept what you read on the internet or what you make up.

What do you propose that we build a wall to separate Mexico from us? Do a google search of the Mexican president regarding the illegal problem. He has been fighting for us to allow the illegals to cross the border and he wants us to grant them legal status.

I'm pretty far up north away from the problem and it doesn't affect my area like it does in other areas but we do have illegals living in my area. And every year the INS is called and they come round up these people up.

And if you haven't read Texas wants to start the same program up. I see this project staying around and working.