Electrical Guru +advice Needed

Hey guys,
I"ve got an F350 diesel, that's been parked since last fall. Tried to start it, nothing, just click, click. I checked the fluid level in the cells, hooked up the charger to what I think is the primary battery. As you know it has two batteries. Still nothing. I've got full dashboard lights and headlights, so I assume therefore that somethig died while it sat over winter. The Question is what ??? It's an automatic so I cant' jump start it. I need it for a trip this comming week, so any advice is really appreciated.

Thanks a lot,
Daniel

Disconnect each battery and test them individually. That way you can isolate the weak battery and only need to replace one.

Hey way2old,
Thanks for the advice, I'll do it. I've got a couple of questions, you might know the answers to. Why have two batteries? Ford must think it's a good selling feature, at least I assume so. But what good is having two when one of the two remains good, but isn't capable of turning the starter? How come you think one of the batteries is shot? Maybe it is, but how do I know that for sure at this point? Does a dead battery when hooked up in line with another battery screw something else up that would prevent starting?
You aren't ever too old til you need help gettin out of a rocking chair
Daniel

Daniel,

Ford installs two batteries because you NEED two. there is no way that it would start after running the glow-plugs when it gets cold outside if you had only one battery, just not enough power available in a single battery.

The batteries are connected so they act as ONE (parallel), charging one will charge the other etc. If everything else works, you may have a starter relay or starter issue. If your voltage gauge drops significantly, but stays in the "normal" range when you attempt to start it, then I would suspect the starter. If it does not move, look at the starter relay. If it drops completely off scale, then you have either battery or connection problems (grounds, battery terminals dirty etc).

You certainly CAN "jump start" this truck, wether it has an auto or a manual trans, makes zero difference, you just cannot pull-start it.

Hey ModMech,
Very interesting. So that's why two batteries. And you are sure right, I could start the truck using jumper cables connected to another vehicle's battery, if all I had was a weak battery, but I've got juice. Here's the deal. Originally I thought one or both batteries were dead so I hooked up the battery charger. I didn't charge until the charger signified they were fully charged, but I can run the headlights on hi beam, interior dome lights, radio, and dash lights all at once and honk the horn while switching the ignition to the start position. All I get from the engine is the familar click. Now I don't know squat about engines, but it sure sounds like contacts being hit with juice and jaming or not being able to either open or close fully. Anyway, if I've that much stored energy to run all that stuff, I would think I could at least turn the stater a couple revolutions at least slowly. So can a starter or starter relay die while being parked. I'm laid off and moneys tight, so I'm trying to figure out how to escape towing and shop expenses, if all I have to do is buy a new battery. I'll bet it's the relay. I don't have any test equipment and frankly I don't know where the starter relay is but I should be able to figure it out with some guidance. When I was a kid I had an old beater that (I think it was the starter) would not start quite often, so I used to leave the ignition switch on and take a big screwdriver and lay it across the terminals on either the starter, or the selenoid or relay switch (I can't remember now) and would get it to make a complete circuit so it would crank a half turn or so and I could get back in turn the key and fire it up. If something is "stuck" can I do something similar? Also my glow plugs are shot, no longer heat up adequately and needed to be replaced when I parked it last fall. Is there any connection with what's going on now? I could take both batteries to Sears tomorrow and get them tested if you think that's advisable. If that's a waste of time, should I just buy a relay starter and try to install it myself? I realize I might be gambling on the problem, but how many things could it be, and can't a guy reasonably eliminate most of the possibilities with a high degree of certainty?
I sure am glad you guys have a generous spirit. That's really admirable, THANKS.

Daniel

Daniel,

Where to look really depends on how the voltage gauge acts when you try to start it.

Possible cause of a no-start are:
-Neutral safety switch
-Starter Relay
-Starter
-Battery(ies) or connections being dirty
-bad ground on the engine.

So, where to look? As I said above, if the voltage gauge drops all the way left, and it does not start, I suspect a bettery problem. This is more likely given you can jump start it. Now, you CANNOT check a battery unless it is fully charged, so you will have to do that first. Also, starting a diesel with the glow-plugs being bad is hard on both the batteries and the starter, so the should be fixed.

Hi ModMech,
I might have misled you. I should have said I realize a vehicle can be jumped started, however in my case nothing happens. I get the same response; just a click. I charged up both batteries, took them in for testing, and they both tested out satisfactorily. I used emery cloth on the terminals and posts and reconnected them, still no luck. I checked the cables all the way down to the starter. They and the connections look perfect. I think its gotta be the starter relay or starter itself. I know stuff goes wrong unexpectedly, but I just don't get why either of these should have failed on a 1997 with only 40,000 miles. I guess I'd better buy a voltage gauge to test out the relay and the starter. got any suggestions on what kind to buy? I didn't realize bad glow plugs were hard on batteries and the starter. I suppose on cold days the starter motor would have to crank longer, but you'd think it would be designed to go at least 100,000 miles or so. Is that the problem that arises when the glow plugs are shot that adversly affects the starter?
DANIEL

Daniel,

Oh, I did not realize it was that new. The glow-plugs are all certainly ok, but the relays are known to go bad from time to time, I'd check both sides of the realy (larger terminals) first to see if you are getting voltage on both with the key on and the "Wait to Start" light on.

Yes, I agree the starter or starter relay is the cause. If you short accross the relay, it should turn over, if not, try it CAREFULLY at the starter itself. If it still will not turn over, then the starter is toast (likely). You can also check this using a test light. While someone holds the key in the start position, check both large realy terminals for power, the light should illuminate brightly on both. If not, relay time. If that checks out, try the light on the lower starter lug (large one, there are two, top and bottom), if the light lights the starter is junk, if not, the solenoid on the starter is junk. IN either case, it's time for a rebuilt.

ModMech,
Ok, I'll get right after it and follow your instructions. I'll let you know what shows up.
Thanks,
Daniel

just thought i would pass on a hard learned tip..if you ever have to replace a battery make sure you replace both and that both are the same.

Hey ModMech,

The problem is resolved. I had to install a new starter relay. It runs well.

Thanks for your help!

DANIEL

Highboy,

Why do you say it is neccessary to replace both batteries at the same time, even though one may still be good?

Also, what are the consequences of running batteries that are not the same? I would think as long as they are hooked up in parallel that it wouldn't make any difference. But you think it does. Why is that?

Thanks for the info.
DANIEl

It really does not matter for a STARTING battery. If you were talking about a DEEP CYCLE battery, like in a golf cart then yes, it can make a BIG difference if the batteries are "matched".

When halogen headlights first came out many people (mistakenly) said you "had" to replace them in pairs as well, well 20+ years has proven that completely wrong too.

I work for a fleet as a manager, we own over 2,000 units nation-wide, and I can tell you that there is no need to replace both batteries just because one goes bad. Now, if these batteries are both old (5+ years) it would be a good bet, in my opinion, to replace them both because they are reaching the end of their lives anyway. If they were say 3-4 years old or newer, I would not even consider doing both.

ModMech,

What you say about batteries makes sense. Well anyway, my truck is up and running and I appreciate the advice. The way it runs though I see a tune-up problem comming up. I may ask your opinion on that. For now I replaced the air filter and popped in a new fuel fillter and changed the oil and oil filter. Gotta get from home here in Minnesota, over to Ohio and back. Hope it makes it. It runs rough for the first five to ten minutes if I take off without giving it adequate time to warm up. Seems like I can drive about a block, then it starts chugging and laboring and then I just lose all power. It feels as though the enigine is being flooded and I've got to pull over let it catch it's breath and settle down for at least 5 minutes before I can go on. But as I say if I never put it under a load and just let it idle in the driveway for 10 minutes in the first place, then I'm ok. Or at least 95% ok.

I'm leaving tomorrow, maybe we can hook up when I get back.
Adios, thanks again'
DANIEL