GM may get rid of Pontiac or Buick
BIG-L
03-24-2005, 11:09 AM
Click here for FOX new's release on GM (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151308,00.html)
Reuters / March 23, 2005
DETROIT -- General Motors, which issued a shock profit warning last week and has been losing market share, may phase out one of its weaker car brands if sales fail to meet projections, company Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said on Wednesday.
GM's Buick and Pontiac are both "damaged brands" due to lack of investment over the years, and GM is working to correct that with an array of new vehicles coming to market, Lutz told a Morgan Stanley automotive conference in New York.
But if some of its brands fail to meet sales projections, "then we would have to take a look at a phase-out. I hope we don't have to do that. What we've got to do is keep the brands we've got."
Financial analysts have said for years that the world's largest automaker has too many brands to support, even with the gradual phase-out of the Oldsmobile brand a few years ago, particularly with its weaker U.S. sales.
Sales for both Pontiac and Buick have lagged in recent years. But GM is in the midst of a $3 billion investment in new vehicles for Buick and Pontiac showrooms and they will have four new vehicles this year, including the Solstice roadster, Torrent SUV and the G6 mid-sized coupe.
GM, which last week cut its earnings outlook for 2005 by as much as 80 percent, posted a 6 percent drop in U.S. sales for the first two months of the year. GM's U.S. market share fell to about 25 percent, far below its share of 27.5 percent for all of 2004.
Analysts said last week that GM's March sales could fall as much as 10 percent in March, while foreign automakers such as Toyota Motor Corp., Hyundai Motor Co. Ltd. and Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. would continue to gain U.S. market share.
Lutz said GM will post relatively flat U.S. sales for March, however, performing much better than expected.
"I think we're going to be just about even, our best guess at this point. Either a percent over or a percent under," he said. "It is a substantially better month than January or February, and it looks like the whole industry is up."
'A HUGE ALBATROSS'
No details about an expected restructuring at GM, the largest private U.S. provider of health care, have emerged since it roiled markets with its warning last week.
But the company, which has about $300 billion in outstanding debt, said on Wednesday it was in talks to sell a stake in its GMAC Commercial Mortgage unit after potential investors expressed interest in the unit.
And Lutz and Gary Cowger, GM's president for North America, spoke of possible demands for a cut in mounting health care benefits for the company's hourly union employees in remarks on the sidelines of the New York auto show on Wednesday.
An elimination of any one of GM's brands would likely mean plant closings and a shrinking of GM's hourly work force.
"An across-the-board competitive health care plan for salaried and hourly employees could literally save us billions," Cowger said. Health care costs, added Lutz, are "a huge albatross hanging over American industry today."
Lutz particularly acknowledged that the automaker, which will struggle to make a profit this year, faces challenges. But he said GM was "taking the necessary step to right this ship."
"Sure, we face short-term challenges, and this is not going to be a banner year," he said. "It's a difficult period of adjustment. But we will get through it."
He said some of GM's new cars, such as its Chevrolet Cobalt small car and the Pontiac G6 mid-sized car, will post their best sales to date in March, and told the Morgan Stanley conference "I don't know where all the gloom and doom is coming from."
He quoted one car reviewer who said, referring to GM's troubles, that the quality of the Cobalt convinced him that "the Titanic may yet turn fast enough to miss the iceberg."
Reuters / March 23, 2005
DETROIT -- General Motors, which issued a shock profit warning last week and has been losing market share, may phase out one of its weaker car brands if sales fail to meet projections, company Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said on Wednesday.
GM's Buick and Pontiac are both "damaged brands" due to lack of investment over the years, and GM is working to correct that with an array of new vehicles coming to market, Lutz told a Morgan Stanley automotive conference in New York.
But if some of its brands fail to meet sales projections, "then we would have to take a look at a phase-out. I hope we don't have to do that. What we've got to do is keep the brands we've got."
Financial analysts have said for years that the world's largest automaker has too many brands to support, even with the gradual phase-out of the Oldsmobile brand a few years ago, particularly with its weaker U.S. sales.
Sales for both Pontiac and Buick have lagged in recent years. But GM is in the midst of a $3 billion investment in new vehicles for Buick and Pontiac showrooms and they will have four new vehicles this year, including the Solstice roadster, Torrent SUV and the G6 mid-sized coupe.
GM, which last week cut its earnings outlook for 2005 by as much as 80 percent, posted a 6 percent drop in U.S. sales for the first two months of the year. GM's U.S. market share fell to about 25 percent, far below its share of 27.5 percent for all of 2004.
Analysts said last week that GM's March sales could fall as much as 10 percent in March, while foreign automakers such as Toyota Motor Corp., Hyundai Motor Co. Ltd. and Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. would continue to gain U.S. market share.
Lutz said GM will post relatively flat U.S. sales for March, however, performing much better than expected.
"I think we're going to be just about even, our best guess at this point. Either a percent over or a percent under," he said. "It is a substantially better month than January or February, and it looks like the whole industry is up."
'A HUGE ALBATROSS'
No details about an expected restructuring at GM, the largest private U.S. provider of health care, have emerged since it roiled markets with its warning last week.
But the company, which has about $300 billion in outstanding debt, said on Wednesday it was in talks to sell a stake in its GMAC Commercial Mortgage unit after potential investors expressed interest in the unit.
And Lutz and Gary Cowger, GM's president for North America, spoke of possible demands for a cut in mounting health care benefits for the company's hourly union employees in remarks on the sidelines of the New York auto show on Wednesday.
An elimination of any one of GM's brands would likely mean plant closings and a shrinking of GM's hourly work force.
"An across-the-board competitive health care plan for salaried and hourly employees could literally save us billions," Cowger said. Health care costs, added Lutz, are "a huge albatross hanging over American industry today."
Lutz particularly acknowledged that the automaker, which will struggle to make a profit this year, faces challenges. But he said GM was "taking the necessary step to right this ship."
"Sure, we face short-term challenges, and this is not going to be a banner year," he said. "It's a difficult period of adjustment. But we will get through it."
He said some of GM's new cars, such as its Chevrolet Cobalt small car and the Pontiac G6 mid-sized car, will post their best sales to date in March, and told the Morgan Stanley conference "I don't know where all the gloom and doom is coming from."
He quoted one car reviewer who said, referring to GM's troubles, that the quality of the Cobalt convinced him that "the Titanic may yet turn fast enough to miss the iceberg."
BigFig15
03-24-2005, 12:21 PM
Do you think theyll get rid of Pontiac? Damn near every car you see is a Pontiac. I think they should ditch Buick.
BNaylor
03-24-2005, 12:43 PM
Do you think theyll get rid of Pontiac? Damn near every car you see is a Pontiac. I think they should ditch Buick.
I don't know about you all but I see more SUVs, minivans, pickup trucks and rice-burners than Pontiacs or Buicks lately. If GM decides to get rid of Buicks they will have problems with the old folks and AARP. Lots of lobbying power. lol.
I don't know about you all but I see more SUVs, minivans, pickup trucks and rice-burners than Pontiacs or Buicks lately. If GM decides to get rid of Buicks they will have problems with the old folks and AARP. Lots of lobbying power. lol.
panchoman
03-24-2005, 12:50 PM
they shouldn't get rid of either one, get rid of hondas sounds better haah.....not starting a flame ware btw
guano
03-24-2005, 01:38 PM
[QUOTE=BIG-L]Click here for FOX new's release on GM (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151308,00.html)
wasnt it maybe a couple of years ago that GM was supposed to ditch oldsmobile? what ever happened to that plan? i highly highly doubt that either buick or pontiac is going anywhere.. GM is trippin' when they loose a little cash, well WTF you guys buy out HUMMER and SAAB shit their sales dont touch either pontiac or buick. whoever is sittin' in the big chair needs to wake up and smell the cash. there is a lot of pontiac and buick to come if u ask me.
wasnt it maybe a couple of years ago that GM was supposed to ditch oldsmobile? what ever happened to that plan? i highly highly doubt that either buick or pontiac is going anywhere.. GM is trippin' when they loose a little cash, well WTF you guys buy out HUMMER and SAAB shit their sales dont touch either pontiac or buick. whoever is sittin' in the big chair needs to wake up and smell the cash. there is a lot of pontiac and buick to come if u ask me.
pommer2005
03-24-2005, 05:48 PM
If you guys want to read more about it, theres a 16 pages topic on it on GMInsideNews.com
-josh
http://forums.gminsidenews.com/showthread.php?t=12612
-josh
http://forums.gminsidenews.com/showthread.php?t=12612
BIG-L
03-24-2005, 06:11 PM
wasnt it maybe a couple of years ago that GM was supposed to ditch oldsmobile? what ever happened to that plan?
They are ! If you ever noticed that they only offer 3 models now and they are 2004 Alero, Bravada & Silhouette.The last Oldsmobile ( Alero ) rolled off the line in June of 2004 at the Lansing, Mi. plant, it was fitting that the last Olds would be built where it all started. It's rumored that R.E Olds rolled over in his grave that day and told G.M top brass to kiss his @**. :biggrin:
Olsmobile is releasing a collector's edition to finish there long history
http://www.oldsmobile.com/olds/collectors/index.html
http://www.oldsmobile.com/olds/collectors/images/collector_3.jpg
Quote from www.oldsmobile.com
Very few will own the last ones ever built.
If you'd like to own a piece of Oldsmobile history, these custom-painted and outfitted vehicles are your last opportunity.
They are ! If you ever noticed that they only offer 3 models now and they are 2004 Alero, Bravada & Silhouette.The last Oldsmobile ( Alero ) rolled off the line in June of 2004 at the Lansing, Mi. plant, it was fitting that the last Olds would be built where it all started. It's rumored that R.E Olds rolled over in his grave that day and told G.M top brass to kiss his @**. :biggrin:
Olsmobile is releasing a collector's edition to finish there long history
http://www.oldsmobile.com/olds/collectors/index.html
http://www.oldsmobile.com/olds/collectors/images/collector_3.jpg
Quote from www.oldsmobile.com
Very few will own the last ones ever built.
If you'd like to own a piece of Oldsmobile history, these custom-painted and outfitted vehicles are your last opportunity.
MikeLee2484
03-24-2005, 06:12 PM
wasnt it maybe a couple of years ago that GM was supposed to ditch oldsmobile? what ever happened to that plan? i highly highly doubt that either buick or pontiac is going anywhere.. GM is trippin' when they loose a little cash, well WTF you guys buy out HUMMER and SAAB shit their sales dont touch either pontiac or buick. whoever is sittin' in the big chair needs to wake up and smell the cash. there is a lot of pontiac and buick to come if u ask me.
number one, they did get rid of oldsmoblie. and number two just because the sales dont reach the same doesnt mean they arent as profitable. the reason they are considering getting rid of either pontiac or buick is because, with only a few exceptions with pontiac, the cars are the same as any chevy just badged as either pontiac or buick. they just dont see the point in keeping two of the same cars. why sell both a sunfire and a cavailer? just sell one. thats what they're seeing. cut back on the expenses to sell two of essentially the same car and they see greater profits. hummers and saabs are so different from the typical GM mold and attract a different market, thats why GM bought them and are keeping them. plus beyond that, the brand image of both buick and pontiac isnt what it used to be. and probably for buick, there is no recovering from that.
number one, they did get rid of oldsmoblie. and number two just because the sales dont reach the same doesnt mean they arent as profitable. the reason they are considering getting rid of either pontiac or buick is because, with only a few exceptions with pontiac, the cars are the same as any chevy just badged as either pontiac or buick. they just dont see the point in keeping two of the same cars. why sell both a sunfire and a cavailer? just sell one. thats what they're seeing. cut back on the expenses to sell two of essentially the same car and they see greater profits. hummers and saabs are so different from the typical GM mold and attract a different market, thats why GM bought them and are keeping them. plus beyond that, the brand image of both buick and pontiac isnt what it used to be. and probably for buick, there is no recovering from that.
MikeLee2484
03-24-2005, 06:21 PM
sorry BIG-L, you beat me to the oldsmobile comment by a minute
BIG-L
03-24-2005, 06:34 PM
New Release
Kill a brand? GM's LaNeve says no
By Jason Stein
Automotive News / March 24, 2005
DETROIT -- One day after General Motors Vice Chairman Robert Lutz mused about the automaker possibly killing a brand, another GM executive asserted that the automaker has no intention of eliminating any of its brands.
Mark LaNeve, vice president of sales and marketing for GM, told Automotive News the automaker is investing heavily in all eight brands. Phasing out a particular division is not under consideration.
"We have no plans, or even discussions, of killing any brands," LaNeve said, "We're investing more heavily than ever in product and marketing programs."
On Wednesday, Lutz told a Morgan Stanley Automotive conference in New York if one of GM's "troubled brands" fails to turn around, "then we'd have to take a look at a phase-out."
Published reports linked Pontiac and Buick to Lutz's comments.
LaNeve reemphasized in a message to dealers Thursday that both brands are safe.
LaNeve also said GM is managing Buick, Pontiac and GMC as one channel and providing those divisions with a product portfolio "to service that channel and to focus " the lineup.
That represents a key difference from Oldsmobile, which GM killed last year, he said.
"These portfolios we're going to deliver we don't have to deliver an A to Z portfolio for those three brands," he said. "We can tighten and focus them. I'd rather have four or five great Pontiacs or Buicks than eight undistinguishable products. That business model makes a lot of sense."
Kill a brand? GM's LaNeve says no
By Jason Stein
Automotive News / March 24, 2005
DETROIT -- One day after General Motors Vice Chairman Robert Lutz mused about the automaker possibly killing a brand, another GM executive asserted that the automaker has no intention of eliminating any of its brands.
Mark LaNeve, vice president of sales and marketing for GM, told Automotive News the automaker is investing heavily in all eight brands. Phasing out a particular division is not under consideration.
"We have no plans, or even discussions, of killing any brands," LaNeve said, "We're investing more heavily than ever in product and marketing programs."
On Wednesday, Lutz told a Morgan Stanley Automotive conference in New York if one of GM's "troubled brands" fails to turn around, "then we'd have to take a look at a phase-out."
Published reports linked Pontiac and Buick to Lutz's comments.
LaNeve reemphasized in a message to dealers Thursday that both brands are safe.
LaNeve also said GM is managing Buick, Pontiac and GMC as one channel and providing those divisions with a product portfolio "to service that channel and to focus " the lineup.
That represents a key difference from Oldsmobile, which GM killed last year, he said.
"These portfolios we're going to deliver we don't have to deliver an A to Z portfolio for those three brands," he said. "We can tighten and focus them. I'd rather have four or five great Pontiacs or Buicks than eight undistinguishable products. That business model makes a lot of sense."
BNaylor
03-24-2005, 06:56 PM
number one, they did get rid of oldsmoblie. and number two just because the sales dont reach the same doesnt mean they arent as profitable. the reason they are considering getting rid of either pontiac or buick is because, with only a few exceptions with pontiac, the cars are the same as any chevy just badged as either pontiac or buick. they just dont see the point in keeping two of the same cars. why sell both a sunfire and a cavailer? just sell one. thats what they're seeing. cut back on the expenses to sell two of essentially the same car and they see greater profits. hummers and saabs are so different from the typical GM mold and attract a different market, thats why GM bought them and are keeping them. plus beyond that, the brand image of both buick and pontiac isnt what it used to be. and probably for buick, there is no recovering from that.
I seriously doubt that GM will get rid of Pontiac or Buick this decade. They are already losing market share to the rice-burners and if they continue with the folly, loyal Buick and Pontiac people will simply look at other alternatives (Honda, Toyota & Nissan, etc.) before stooping so low as to buy a Chevy. In my opinion, the only Chevy worth looking at or considering is the Corvette if you can afford it. The rest are garbage. Just checkout the Impala and Malibu forums. If I wanted a Chevy I would have bought one instead I opted out for Pontiac, Buick & Oldsmobile.
'97 GTP, '01 Regal GS, '99 Regal LS & '02 Olds Alero GL2
I seriously doubt that GM will get rid of Pontiac or Buick this decade. They are already losing market share to the rice-burners and if they continue with the folly, loyal Buick and Pontiac people will simply look at other alternatives (Honda, Toyota & Nissan, etc.) before stooping so low as to buy a Chevy. In my opinion, the only Chevy worth looking at or considering is the Corvette if you can afford it. The rest are garbage. Just checkout the Impala and Malibu forums. If I wanted a Chevy I would have bought one instead I opted out for Pontiac, Buick & Oldsmobile.
'97 GTP, '01 Regal GS, '99 Regal LS & '02 Olds Alero GL2
94sportsedan
03-25-2005, 12:03 AM
On the same note I'm pissed at Chevrolet for pushing back the realease of the new RWD lineup in favor of new larger trucks. Hello, do they know what's going on in the world that gas prices are at an all time High. I hope this really bites them in the a@@. All I here is people complaining about fuel econmy in these big pieces of crap on the road.
BigFig15
03-25-2005, 12:34 AM
I like trucks. But I dont understand why the people drive them think that because it has a 4x4 badge on it makes them invincible and gravity and laws motion means nothing to them. I was driving one nite and it was really shitty out with snow blowing everywhere and this jack off behind me in a truck tailgates me untill it was clear to pass. He didnt pass me slowly he did it with no hesitation and like i was standing still. Sure 4 wheel is good in some situations but you will still loose control of it and put it in a ditch and bend some shit up. 4x4 aint gonna help u when i got a bent wheel or an axel.
I hope GM pulls there head out of there ass and get there shit together or we will be forced to drive rice burners. Oh make up your mind if your going to make a GMC or a Chevy. Whats the big differnce in the two of them other than a high price tag
I hope GM pulls there head out of there ass and get there shit together or we will be forced to drive rice burners. Oh make up your mind if your going to make a GMC or a Chevy. Whats the big differnce in the two of them other than a high price tag
jon95se
03-25-2005, 07:29 AM
bnaylor3400- i find it funny how you just flamed the impala. in essence, you just flammed your own car. as MikeLee2484 stated. all lot of the same cars, with a different look. just like the regal too. in most perspectives they are all the same. and the century is just a regal with a smaller engine.
BNaylor
03-25-2005, 08:43 AM
bnaylor3400- i find it funny how you just flamed the impala. in essence, you just flammed your own car. as MikeLee2484 stated. all lot of the same cars, with a different look. just like the regal too. in most perspectives they are all the same. and the century is just a regal with a smaller engine.
Its really not funny. Comparing a Regal or a Pontiac GT/GTP to an Impala is like comparing apples to oranges. They may both be fruit but they do not look or taste the same. As to flaming Impalas, Impala owners do a better job than me on these forums. If my GTP or Regals had the quality issues of the Impalas I would have run them off a cliff a long time ago. You get what you pay for.
Plus the majority of the Impalas on the road run a 3.4L V6 with a different tranny. Where's the similarity there?
Its really not funny. Comparing a Regal or a Pontiac GT/GTP to an Impala is like comparing apples to oranges. They may both be fruit but they do not look or taste the same. As to flaming Impalas, Impala owners do a better job than me on these forums. If my GTP or Regals had the quality issues of the Impalas I would have run them off a cliff a long time ago. You get what you pay for.
Plus the majority of the Impalas on the road run a 3.4L V6 with a different tranny. Where's the similarity there?
rawr256
03-25-2005, 12:31 PM
A big issue as I see it is that some of GMs nice and special cars are somewhat overpriced, and not in as big of production as some of the chevy products.
2004 Pontiac released their legend, the GTO, ever since hearing about it i was exstatic. My dad has a 68 GTO (which is a rust bucket right now) and uncle has a 74 GTO (which is about 80% complete and just a pure hot rod). I was expecting that they would put the same engine in the GTO as they do the Corvette when i first heard of it or maybe even redesigning an engine specifically for the car. Last year i had my first chance to go and look at the 2004 GTO at our local car show, and i was somewhat disapointed. They got rid of the Trans Am for this? It only had the LS1 engine and at the time was only offered as an auto (I'm not a great manual driver, but for somethin like a sports car i would prefer a manual, at least as an option). I will say that i did like the interior and the layout of it all but was disapointed to see no T-tops like in my ever so loved TA's, not even a sun roof.
The problem i see with GM is that they are really holding themselves back and trying not to let anything match up with the Vette and i think it is childish. The Vette is a nice car but i would rather have something that i could take more than one other person in a ride for. I believe this is the reason that you see so many Mustangs around is because it is a nice little Sports car that you can take more than one other person in.
The new GTO fully loaded is about 34k as far as i can remember and i have maybe seen four or five of them on the road. The new mustang was just released a few months ago and i think in a day of just driving the 20 miles to and from work i see maybe 10 - 15 a day compared to my four or five GTO's in the last year and a half.
I am really looking forward to the Solstice. It looks like it would be a fun car and i think it looks pretty sharp and unique, along with the Saturn Sky. My dad says that he believes it is their way of bringing back the Fiero, but we still say there should be more done, where is the V6? As far as i know the Sky and Solstice are only getting the Ecotec, and i would imagine that they could probably keep pace with a lot of the GTP's because of weight issues and such but have nothing in the top end, similar to a Miata.
There should be more done with Pontiac and Buick imo, because there simply isn't enough done as it is. When i look at my GTP that i love and ador I look at it as one step up from a Monte Carlo, it has higher standards unlike cars like the MC and Impala. I think this is the main reason that these cars are still around to this day though is because unlike the Chev's the buick and pont have higher standards, when was the last time you saw a buick or pont with a manual roller window? I have seen a 03 Cav with manual windows and laughed inside, and especially when i learned it didn't come with AC.
If GM gets rid of Pont or Buick they will loose a large fan base, i guarentee it, i am still baffled on why the replaced the Grand Am with the G6. All the auto mags i read they all say they thought that the GA was an ugly car, me personally strongly disagree. I believe that the auto mags are more bias toward the jap cars and european cars. You always see in the cons of the mags when they look at some of the GM or Ford cars that they always complain "it doesn't have a European feel". wtf? Last time i checked we were in America and not in Europe (nothing against Europe).
Me personally, i think they should bring back the Firebird and Camaro, and bring back a Chevelle. Turn todays streets into what they were in the 60's and 70's. Im only 19 and love the cars! Me and my cousin tell our dads that they were lucky because they grew up in an age when every car was a fast car and it didn't have a folger's coffe can screwed onto the exhaust.
Sorry to rant on a lil but the possiblity of one of these branches from GM being killed is very possible, not now but i can see it possibly happening in the next 10 - 20 years.
2004 Pontiac released their legend, the GTO, ever since hearing about it i was exstatic. My dad has a 68 GTO (which is a rust bucket right now) and uncle has a 74 GTO (which is about 80% complete and just a pure hot rod). I was expecting that they would put the same engine in the GTO as they do the Corvette when i first heard of it or maybe even redesigning an engine specifically for the car. Last year i had my first chance to go and look at the 2004 GTO at our local car show, and i was somewhat disapointed. They got rid of the Trans Am for this? It only had the LS1 engine and at the time was only offered as an auto (I'm not a great manual driver, but for somethin like a sports car i would prefer a manual, at least as an option). I will say that i did like the interior and the layout of it all but was disapointed to see no T-tops like in my ever so loved TA's, not even a sun roof.
The problem i see with GM is that they are really holding themselves back and trying not to let anything match up with the Vette and i think it is childish. The Vette is a nice car but i would rather have something that i could take more than one other person in a ride for. I believe this is the reason that you see so many Mustangs around is because it is a nice little Sports car that you can take more than one other person in.
The new GTO fully loaded is about 34k as far as i can remember and i have maybe seen four or five of them on the road. The new mustang was just released a few months ago and i think in a day of just driving the 20 miles to and from work i see maybe 10 - 15 a day compared to my four or five GTO's in the last year and a half.
I am really looking forward to the Solstice. It looks like it would be a fun car and i think it looks pretty sharp and unique, along with the Saturn Sky. My dad says that he believes it is their way of bringing back the Fiero, but we still say there should be more done, where is the V6? As far as i know the Sky and Solstice are only getting the Ecotec, and i would imagine that they could probably keep pace with a lot of the GTP's because of weight issues and such but have nothing in the top end, similar to a Miata.
There should be more done with Pontiac and Buick imo, because there simply isn't enough done as it is. When i look at my GTP that i love and ador I look at it as one step up from a Monte Carlo, it has higher standards unlike cars like the MC and Impala. I think this is the main reason that these cars are still around to this day though is because unlike the Chev's the buick and pont have higher standards, when was the last time you saw a buick or pont with a manual roller window? I have seen a 03 Cav with manual windows and laughed inside, and especially when i learned it didn't come with AC.
If GM gets rid of Pont or Buick they will loose a large fan base, i guarentee it, i am still baffled on why the replaced the Grand Am with the G6. All the auto mags i read they all say they thought that the GA was an ugly car, me personally strongly disagree. I believe that the auto mags are more bias toward the jap cars and european cars. You always see in the cons of the mags when they look at some of the GM or Ford cars that they always complain "it doesn't have a European feel". wtf? Last time i checked we were in America and not in Europe (nothing against Europe).
Me personally, i think they should bring back the Firebird and Camaro, and bring back a Chevelle. Turn todays streets into what they were in the 60's and 70's. Im only 19 and love the cars! Me and my cousin tell our dads that they were lucky because they grew up in an age when every car was a fast car and it didn't have a folger's coffe can screwed onto the exhaust.
Sorry to rant on a lil but the possiblity of one of these branches from GM being killed is very possible, not now but i can see it possibly happening in the next 10 - 20 years.
BNaylor
03-26-2005, 12:35 PM
Well conveyed and written rawr256. But I seriuosly doubt that we will ever see a repeat of the good ole 60s and 70s and real musclecars. They are only memories in the fortunate that experienced that era.
Bought a '70 Chevelle SS454 (LS6) with Borg Warner T-5 in 1974 right after the 1973 Arab Oil embargo for $900.00. It was sitting in a used car lot along with a bunch of Hemi-Chargers, 6 pack Roadrunners, and Goats. With Mickey Thompsons that car turned high 12s box stock. To this day, I regret having to get rid of it.
Today, we're still trying to figure out how to break the 14 second barrier with our '97 GTP without trashing the tranny and spending an arm & leg
in dinero.
All GM is interested in doing today is detroying its product line in favor of gas guzzling SUVs and cars that no one can afford without taking out a second mortgage.
Bought a '70 Chevelle SS454 (LS6) with Borg Warner T-5 in 1974 right after the 1973 Arab Oil embargo for $900.00. It was sitting in a used car lot along with a bunch of Hemi-Chargers, 6 pack Roadrunners, and Goats. With Mickey Thompsons that car turned high 12s box stock. To this day, I regret having to get rid of it.
Today, we're still trying to figure out how to break the 14 second barrier with our '97 GTP without trashing the tranny and spending an arm & leg
in dinero.
All GM is interested in doing today is detroying its product line in favor of gas guzzling SUVs and cars that no one can afford without taking out a second mortgage.
guano
03-28-2005, 09:55 AM
Bought a '70 Chevelle SS454 (LS6) with Borg Warner T-5 in 1974 right after the 1973 Arab Oil embargo for $900.00. It was sitting in a used car lot along with a bunch of Hemi-Chargers, 6 pack Roadrunners, and Goats. With Mickey Thompsons that car turned high 12s box stock. To this day, I regret having to get rid of it.
Today, we're still trying to figure out how to break the 14 second barrier with our '97 GTP without trashing the tranny and spending an arm & leg
in dinero.
i dont know about this a T-5? it wasnt stock then. the only trans you could even think about getting on a '70 ls6 is either the muncie four speed or the turbo 400 which are both bad ass trans's. this is coming out of a previous '70 chevelle owner's mouth. a 396BB 375hp rat stock was turning 13's. with a turbo 400. some headers, 3" borla cat back, edelbrock dual plane intake, a 750 holley, and a MSD ignition, a slight bore with some forged pistons put that car in the 12's on street tires.
however i would have to say that muscle cars are coming back in a big way, out of the box. my freinds '02 WS6 was turning 12.9's with street slicks and skinnies, otherwise bone stock. we got 6 speed altimas out there bumping 13's, and what about the 6.0 400hp GTO? i would have to say that thing has got to have some balls that 6.0 is a BEAST. a couple of mods to a 6.0 vette and youll be in the 11's no prob. its not about being a muscle car anymore, its about dropping a HEMI into a chrysler 300 and calling it a family car but that thing will do a brake-torque from hell and some exhaust it would screem. i think cars will only be faster, and burn cleaner as time goes on. dont forget that EPA gets more hardcore every year.
Today, we're still trying to figure out how to break the 14 second barrier with our '97 GTP without trashing the tranny and spending an arm & leg
in dinero.
i dont know about this a T-5? it wasnt stock then. the only trans you could even think about getting on a '70 ls6 is either the muncie four speed or the turbo 400 which are both bad ass trans's. this is coming out of a previous '70 chevelle owner's mouth. a 396BB 375hp rat stock was turning 13's. with a turbo 400. some headers, 3" borla cat back, edelbrock dual plane intake, a 750 holley, and a MSD ignition, a slight bore with some forged pistons put that car in the 12's on street tires.
however i would have to say that muscle cars are coming back in a big way, out of the box. my freinds '02 WS6 was turning 12.9's with street slicks and skinnies, otherwise bone stock. we got 6 speed altimas out there bumping 13's, and what about the 6.0 400hp GTO? i would have to say that thing has got to have some balls that 6.0 is a BEAST. a couple of mods to a 6.0 vette and youll be in the 11's no prob. its not about being a muscle car anymore, its about dropping a HEMI into a chrysler 300 and calling it a family car but that thing will do a brake-torque from hell and some exhaust it would screem. i think cars will only be faster, and burn cleaner as time goes on. dont forget that EPA gets more hardcore every year.
BNaylor
03-28-2005, 11:21 AM
[QUOTE= i dont know about this a T-5? it wasnt stock then. the only trans you could even think about getting on a '70 ls6 is either the muncie four speed or the turbo 400 which are both bad ass trans's. this is coming out of a previous '70 chevelle owner's mouth. a 396BB 375hp rat stock was turning 13's. with a turbo 400. some headers, 3" borla cat back, edelbrock dual plane intake, a 750 holley, and a MSD ignition, a slight bore with some forged pistons put that car in the 12's on street tires.
however i would have to say that muscle cars are coming back in a big way, out of the box. my freinds '02 WS6 was turning 12.9's with street slicks and skinnies, otherwise bone stock. we got 6 speed altimas out there bumping 13's, and what about the 6.0 400hp GTO? i would have to say that thing has got to have some balls that 6.0 is a BEAST. a couple of mods to a 6.0 vette and youll be in the 11's no prob. its not about being a muscle car anymore, its about dropping a HEMI into a chrysler 300 and calling it a family car but that thing will do a brake-torque from hell and some exhaust it would screem. i think cars will only be faster, and burn cleaner as time goes on. dont forget that EPA gets more hardcore every year.[/QUOTE]
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You are absolutely correct. My memory has failed me over the past 30 years. It had the LS6 option which should have been a Muncie M22 4 speed. It was under-rated at 450 hp at 500 ft-lbs torque. With stock tires the SS454 LS6 would turn low 13s with trap speeds around 110 mph. The car listed new for under $5K.
I still vaguely remember the look on the GEICO insurance agent when I walked in asking for insurance coverage. I was 19 at the time and in the service.
BTW - EPA/CAFE and the cost of fuel led to the downfall of those musclecars and history always has a chance of repeating itself. Wait til you see the price of 1 gallon of gas this summer.
however i would have to say that muscle cars are coming back in a big way, out of the box. my freinds '02 WS6 was turning 12.9's with street slicks and skinnies, otherwise bone stock. we got 6 speed altimas out there bumping 13's, and what about the 6.0 400hp GTO? i would have to say that thing has got to have some balls that 6.0 is a BEAST. a couple of mods to a 6.0 vette and youll be in the 11's no prob. its not about being a muscle car anymore, its about dropping a HEMI into a chrysler 300 and calling it a family car but that thing will do a brake-torque from hell and some exhaust it would screem. i think cars will only be faster, and burn cleaner as time goes on. dont forget that EPA gets more hardcore every year.[/QUOTE]
************************************************** **
You are absolutely correct. My memory has failed me over the past 30 years. It had the LS6 option which should have been a Muncie M22 4 speed. It was under-rated at 450 hp at 500 ft-lbs torque. With stock tires the SS454 LS6 would turn low 13s with trap speeds around 110 mph. The car listed new for under $5K.
I still vaguely remember the look on the GEICO insurance agent when I walked in asking for insurance coverage. I was 19 at the time and in the service.
BTW - EPA/CAFE and the cost of fuel led to the downfall of those musclecars and history always has a chance of repeating itself. Wait til you see the price of 1 gallon of gas this summer.
BIG-L
03-28-2005, 11:33 AM
Muncie M22 4 speed
They also used to be called a Rock Crusher
They also used to be called a Rock Crusher
guano
03-28-2005, 07:36 PM
hmm...i guess that i just got so used to the old's that i thought gm forgot about them too. fairwell to oldsmobile i thought the aurora 4.0 was pretty sweet and the old 442's as well. good point on the sunfire's and cavalier's why sell two same cars with different names. if you think about it though then monte's and GP's, montanas and ventures, sierra's and silverado's, cobalts and ions are all pretty much the same too. thats just to name a couple though. i just hope GM keeps on their game and keep with #1 selling brand overall. more american steel, less foreign steel. coming from N.W. indiana.
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