Do you feel we should back up Taiwan?

I enrolled in my CWI (current world issues) class, and have come to the attention of trouble brewing between China, and Taiwan. I'm not sure of the exact details, but I'm pretty sure the jest of it is if Taiwan declares itself Independent of mainland China then China will not hesitate to use violence in order to make Taiwan, and the Mainland as one country again.

The problem I have with this is that Bush said he will surely back TAiwan up with military power if China decides to attack. DAMNIT!! Bush needs to get off his high horse, and realize he can't do everything. From what I have heard from discussions with my teacher, and reading articles China's army is just as strong if not stronger then the US not to mention they have a fraction of the debt that the US does.

Now the 2008 olympics are coming up in China, there is and speculation that TAiwan would declare its independence before the games because they don't think china would have the nerve to go to war after investing in the games.

I'm seriously getting frustrated with Bush, and the fact that he thinks he can bully all other countries around when the reality is we can't. Is Bush just trying to start WWIII before his term is up? Sorry I didn't feel like quoting articles, I just wanted to get the main Idea out.

It goes deeper than somebody's arrogance. If Bush does decide to backup Taiwan, that is one of the few acts of his that I will agree with him on.

The people in Taiwan are actively democratic, and have rejected the mainland's Communist regime. There are actually a whole lot of people in the mainland that would love to do so, but the Taiwanese are the only ones that have gotten away with it, being on an island, and all.

We are at war now, for among other things, "spreading democracy". Well, here's a country that actually, and actively WANTS our way of government.

I'd say that's worth fighting for.

When I was reading about this I also got the feeling they were wanting of a democracy. My only gripe is at what cost does Bush want to save their democracy.

I read that Taiwan was almost a totally different country in that a lot of people speak japanese, and their standard of living is much higher then CHina. Taiwan said the only way they'd join MAinland China is if china changed their entire goverment. BTW China isn't the same HArdcore communist country it was years ago I don't think it would be an absloutely devestating blow on TAiwan.

Even if this is a good cause though Taiwan isn't in need of military help when they good just obstain from declaring Independence. Not to sound heartless but China can take over Taiwan if its going to cost us a bigger deficit, soldiers lives, and evn the possibility of a WWIII (no thanks). THe article I read makes it sound like the US would surely lose in a war with China especially with our troops all over the world. I would expect the war to be fought over Taiwans soil as well so even if we did fight for Taiwan the country would be in ruin after the war.

Heres a link to the 10 page article if you'd like to read it. I'm aware a lot of the views are opinions, but when paired with the facts they make sense. No Longer the "lone" Superpower (http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0315-24.htm)

When China was founded sixty years ago (yes the culture has been around for thousands, but present day China for sixty), a large portion of the countries wealth went with Shek to Taiwan. China wants it back. It wouldn't do China any good to attack Taiwan because they would end up destroying the things they most want out of that little island.

Most people in Taiwan say they really want to be part of China. What they don't want it the repressive communist government. If China ever moved to a parliamentary or republic system, 90% of Taiwan would vote for reunification.

One thing your class may not be talking about is the inability of China to invade Taiwan. They could blow it to hell, which isn't what they want, but they can't invade. They do not have the means to conduct an amphibious assault of that magnitude – at least not yet. A really good article on the topic is here http://www.brookings.edu/dybdocroot/views/articles/ohanlon/2000fall_IS.htm (http://www.brookings.edu/dybdocroot/views/articles/ohanlon/2000fall_IS.htm) though it is a few years old, it still holds true today.

Another little bit of history http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm













Never pay again for live sex! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=1) | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=3) | Chat for free! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=5)

It is obvious that even superpowers have the ability to Invade whole countries, and rule (example: vietnam, or even the present day Iraq conflict)

The point I wanted to make is that there would still be conflict between the US, and CHina. If they were to fight would it be mostly a sea based battle? Could it extend to Nuclear attacks on China or the US mainland? Wether or not China has the Ability to do so is irrelevant. There is still the matter of an ever increasing debt, and the cost of lives if fighting were to erupt.

I would expect them to still use some military force short of Nuclear bombs. They may be aware of the inability to invade, but that still won't stop them %100 from trying.

IMO Taiwan wanting Independence shouldn't be a big deal if China is a ble to actively trade with Taiwan. I think the whole idea of this conflict is a moral issue.

China refuses to let go of a semi-territory.

Taiwan just wants to make it official that they rule themselves.

Philisophically:

If Hawai'i was trying to declare independence from the US, and the US Government was invading or attacking in order to keep Hawai'i from seceding, would any of us expect a foreign power to try to stop the US Government?

The US would be pissed if they did.

:iagree:

good point

The establishment of a separate Nationalist China(Taiwan) and Republic of China (Red) is a done deal since 1949. It's already a separate, sovereign country. It's history. It's over. There have been skirmishes and such between them before.

Why the hell is anyone talking about this like Taiwan is a province of China(Red) for?

My point was to illustrate China's position. China fully believes that Taiwan is part of the mainland and subject to its rule. From China's point of view, Taiwan is attempting to secede by declaring independence. In my example the US was taking a similar view to the announced secession of Hawai'i.

Taiwan may consider itself independent, due to economic and governmental factors, but has never outright declared the independence.

Philisophically:

If Hawai'i was trying to declare independence from the US, and the US Government was invading or attacking in order to keep Hawai'i from seceding, would any of us expect a foreign power to try to stop the US Government?

The US would be pissed if they did.

Apples and oranges. China and Taiwan are more like the US Civil War if it never ended.

The main reason that the south was leaving the union was over states rights. Yes, slavery played a roll as well, but it was the federal government that they opposed. I fully support any state that wants to succeed for those reasons. In the case of the US, if the state wants to go, we should let it. If we cannot convince the state of the benefits of staying in the union, then it’s not worth having them around.

China and Taiwan never finished that war.

PWRDbyUNCLEbens - Don't pass over the ability to invade. Its the whole reason why they rattle the sabre so loudly. Thats why the Chinese government flips its lid everytime we sell Taiwan a ship or plane that helps in their defense. And, having Taiwan claim independance is a big deal to China. In fact its bigger then just about any deal to the Chinese government. They declare independance and the leadership loses face and a Chinese man does not tolerate losing face.













Never pay again for live sex! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=1) | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=3) | Chat for free! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=5)

China and Taiwan are more like the US Civil War if it never ended.



Precisely. Civil War is what we're talking about here, not some foreign power invading another. China and Taiwan were once unified. Taiwan wants independence, China wants to retain Taiwan. And as in the US Civil War, the two sides should be allowed to fight it out(whether politically or physically, don't want the war/antiwar debate) without some other country getting involved in the conflict.

The South was blockaded by foreign naval powers in the US Civil War, but no foreign troops fought in the ground conflict. I believe the situation to be similar in Taiwan, the US should support the side it believes in, but not get its own troops involved.

I think China would face a severe backlash from all around, if the try and use military force to stop Taiwan from declaring its independence. They would be/already are viewed as the big bully pushing the little guy down in the lunch room.

If the world super powers, who probably rely on the trade and exports from taiwanese cheap labor, infrom china that they intend to embargo them, or revoke most favorable nation status, I think China would back off.

China does not have the ability to be self sustaning, with their large population. If they are told they will be cut off, from their major suppliers, that in itself would be enough pressure I think, to dissuade them from blocking Taiwan from claiming their own independence.

Sniper, I think you're a bit off. The Chinese people are perfectly able to sustain themselves; it's only when you put a western-style life ethic on them that they require lots of oil, computers, etc and become non-self-sufficient.

I think you're right on the other points, though. :D


Woebetide the world when China gets pissed off and is able to project power.

I understand fully the point of view that Republic of China has that Taiwan and Nationalist China is a part of mainland China. But since the split was made in 1949 the whole freakin world recognizes Nationalist China as a legitimate nation and there would be backlash from everywhere were the reds to instigate military operations against the island.

Thorn in side and all that understood, but it smacks of greed that they just gotta have this tiny island to add to one of the largest countries on the planet.

Hong Kong and Taiwan were fabulously successful as capitalist-oriented entities with the whole billion mainlanders coming off second best in economy. Just sour grapes. But now the reds realize how capitalism is working on the mainland and don't need no stinkin island to bolster their economy.

let me see..Taiwan has no oil reserves, and is being threatened with violence by the country with the third olargest trading figures with the US.

Bush may puff and blow[as usual] but the reality is that Taiwan is screwed.

Good point, it's be unlikely that GW will send in the troops without some larger (oil) motivation.

I haven't heard anything in relation to what the UN thinks about all this, but did locate these articles:


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-03/21/content_2726023.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/03/22/MNGU6BSU1A1.DTL


There probably won't be much media until/unless China attacks.

I don't think the US should do anything about it. Let someone else do it.

I don't think the US should do anything about it. Let someone else do it.

So...why couldn't somebody else do something about Iraq again?

So...why couldn't somebody else do something about Iraq again?
Please enlighten us...

We should stay out of this one. Let them fight it out. I am sick of war.

Exactly...That's why I say let someone else do it. Let NZ jump in and take care of it this time. How about the Euro Union? If Taiwan is screwed because the US didn't do something then I would also say Taiwan is screwed because no one else did anything either.

Good point. I read the other day that in the 3500+ years of recorded history, less than 200 years have been without war of some kind. Guess we're just a violent bunch of mobsters here on Earth.

Too bad that the world has come to rely on places like China and the Middle East to supply large amounts of oil and manufactured goods at knock-down prices while conveniently ignoring the rights abuses.There's got to be compelling commercial advantage for interfering in the affairs of another country thesedays, which is why Iraq got monstered while Sudan got ignored.The continuation of Chinese rule over Taiwan will not endanger any Western nation's wealth,so nothing will get done.Those who fell for the lies surrounding Iraq will not swallow horseshit twice in one generation. Those who are saying 'America shouldn't get involved' are only doing so because rthey have learned the consequences of interfering in matters that are not their business in Iraq.

No nation is perfect.No nation can stand up and say that "Our way of doing things is better,and we will force you to do it our way."
Those who demand that 'something be done' must surely see that forcing China to comply with American ideals is no different to China forcing Taiwan to comply with Chinese ideals.

The reality is that we live in an imperfect world.Democracy is a luxury, and one that those of us who believe in should use wisely.Electing a clown who wants democracy at the point of a gun is not the solution.There is no such thing as gunpoint democracy. If you really want the Taiwanese to live as you do, open your borders to them. Let those who want democracy move to countries where it wiorks, instead of trying to bomb it into them.Bush has already shouwn that option to be a complete failure.

Too bad that the world has come to rely on places like China and the Middle East to supply large amounts of oil and manufactured goods at knock-down prices while conveniently ignoring the rights abuses.There's got to be compelling commercial advantage for interfering in the affairs of another country thesedays, which is why Iraq got monstered while Sudan got ignored.The continuation of Chinese rule over Taiwan will not endanger any Western nation's wealth,so nothing will get done.Those who fell for the lies surrounding Iraq will not swallow horseshit twice in one generation. Those who are saying 'America shouldn't get involved' are only doing so because rthey have learned the consequences of interfering in matters that are not their business in Iraq.

No nation is perfect.No nation can stand up and say that "Our way of doing things is better,and we will force you to do it our way."
Those who demand that 'something be done' must surely see that forcing China to comply with American ideals is no different to China forcing Taiwan to comply with Chinese ideals.

The reality is that we live in an imperfect world.Democracy is a luxury, and one that those of us who believe in should use wisely.Electing a clown who wants democracy at the point of a gun is not the solution.There is no such thing as gunpoint democracy. If you really want the Taiwanese to live as you do, open your borders to them. Let those who want democracy move to countries where it wiorks, instead of trying to bomb it into them.Bush has already shouwn that option to be a complete failure.

So we shouldn't worry about Taiwan then? I'll agree with that. I don't care how they live. Our borders have been open to them for years. If they wanted to live in a democracy then they can just move as you said. If not then they can just sit where they are and let China take over. I sure as hell won't accept anyone saying it's our fault when or if it does happen and we do nothing about it. Especially if no one else is doing anything about it besides complaining how we should be doing something.

I think the U.S. could at least try peace talks with both to cool things down. With Japan in the area I don't think the U.S. wants things to get out of control.

From what the news is saying by 2006 China will be able to flatten Taiwan in the blink of an eye with hundreds of cruise missiles. The only thing Taiwan can do is get tons and tons and tons of Patriot Missile systems for defence but they probably won't get them in time.

If the U.S. stepped in I really doubt a war would break out. The U.S. doesn't want war and neither does China. If the U.S. did step in though they should get the backing of Europe and several other countries so China is overwhelmed with support for Taiwan.

I guess what I am saying is .... let someone else do it....Let someone else try peace talks. Let someone else finally take the initiative and do something.

Apples and oranges. China and Taiwan are more like the US Civil War if it never ended.

The main reason that the south was leaving the union was over states rights. Yes, slavery played a roll as well, but it was the federal government that they opposed. I fully support any state that wants to succeed for those reasons. In the case of the US, if the state wants to go, we should let it. If we cannot convince the state of the benefits of staying in the union, then it’s not worth having them around.

China and Taiwan never finished that war.

PWRDbyUNCLEbens - Don't pass over the ability to invade. Its the whole reason why they rattle the sabre so loudly. Thats why the Chinese government flips its lid everytime we sell Taiwan a ship or plane that helps in their defense. And, having Taiwan claim independance is a big deal to China. In fact its bigger then just about any deal to the Chinese government. They declare independance and the leadership loses face and a Chinese man does not tolerate losing face.

good call. The chinese "civil war" ended on the mainland but the line held on the island provinces. (well except Hong Kong but thats a seperate issue) if Hawaii had been on the southern side during the American civil war and had managed to hold it's ground till now and a cold war sort of existed there then that would be pretty much the same. and I can't see the states being happy if Russia, china or any other superpower had come along and supported Hawaii's independance...

at the moment China may not have the power to invade, but that will most likely change and until China decides to acknowlege Taipei as Taiwan then theres still that chance. Another good point was brought up, China today is nowhere near the oppressive communism that everyones been taught to hate, it's a pretty good balance to look after a populace that big. And the rate that China is developing at the moment, the people of taiwan wouldn't miss out on much, Hong Kong's been ok and they had more to fear as far as cultural differences go. The chinese government also see's the people of Taiwan as being oppressed by a government that forced itself on them and prevents them from being part of China. The Taiwanese government feels the same about China.

What would happen if there was a war between the US and China? If the US can't control Iraq how the hell would they hold ground in China? what would happen in Korea? and japan?

What would happen if there was a war between the US and China? If the US can't control Iraq how the hell would they hold ground in China? what would happen in Korea? and japan?

Well, The Chinease have a much bigger military than the U.S. I've heard that the Chinease army can line up their troops by four and start marching them off a cliff in rows and they'll never run out of men. Also, we can thank slick willie for providing them with our greatest military technologies. The only way the U.S. could win against China would be to hit them very hard in the early stages with a massive nuclear attack at several key points in the country.

Muscletang- you are right. Where's all the support from the Euros? The very least they could do is give Taiwan lip service support but they're evidently too pussywhipped to even do that. That's the kind of attitude that enboldened Hitler to seek more "living space."
http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Attention.gif

The Chinese have more in manpower, but manpower doesn't win battles (its just one minor component). I'd rather have ten guys driving Abrahams then ten-thousand with butter knives.

TRD - I think you are overestimating how far they've come. My in-laws still have relatives living there and while there are times that the largest cities look and feel world-class, its mostly for show. The vast majority of the interior live in poverty. Even in Shanghai, they turn down the lights after 9pm because they cannot afford to light up the town. Have fun walking home in the dark. My wife was there last spring and was amazed at how much of the city has to shut down because the government tells them too (again the cost of electricity, policing etc.).

China has taken some strides and will continue for the forseeable future, but they are more like Europe in the 1500s with the auristicrats and a handful of well off people and a vast majority of people living in poverty or near poverty. If it weren't for the strong sense of nationalism that pervades the country, the communists probably couldn't keep the country together.













Never pay again for live sex! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=1) | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=3) | Chat for free! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=5)