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Discussion about CART, IRL, oval racing


blackcomet
03-15-2005, 08:24 PM
I'm sorry, but Derek Bell is no longer one of the top road-racing drivers in the world. He was at one time, but no longer is. You can see it by the sliding quality of his rides and his performance. However, people should take the point that unless they hire a pro to race their car probably won't go beyond the first turn let alone be competitive.

Anyway, since it costs about 300-500k minimum to run a full season of GT I think placing in the top 20 is the least of their worries.

truthfully I do not watch this series that much only because I live in Canada and I do not have speedchannel but I am a big fan of other racing like CART, F1 etc. and from watching F1 for many years I know a lot about it.My point is that you mentioned that Derek Bell is no longer a top-road racer but I beleive that changing the car a driver has will make the way he drives change as well and sometimes it is for the better therefore he may just become better then he already was. so him being in the new S60-R, you might see soem interresting things out of it.

Dreamspawn
03-15-2005, 09:41 PM
truthfully I do not watch this series that much only because I live in Canada and I do not have speedchannel but I am a big fan of other racing like CART, F1 etc. and from watching F1 for many years I know a lot about it.My point is that you mentioned that Derek Bell is no longer a top-road racer but I beleive that changing the car a driver has will make the way he drives change as well and sometimes it is for the better therefore he may just become better then he already was. so him being in the new S60-R, you might see soem interresting things out of it.

You watch CART? I haven't herd nebody say that in like 2 years. I lost my interest in it after they announced that lamborghini and ferrari had signed contracts to field teams then they sell like the whole damn thing to ford WTF. they were going to have ford,toyota,honda,lambo,ferrari and possible chevy and then sell out to ford?

I agree on the changing drivers and cars always usally has a affect somtimes good somtimes bad. Like for example WRC toni gradermaster last year ran a skoda had a mediacore season when the car ran this year with ford he was 1st in points till last weeekends rally now third.

Tiger Racing
03-15-2005, 11:51 PM
You watch CART? I haven't herd nebody say that in like 2 years.

This is hyperbole, no?

I lost my interest in it after they announced that lamborghini and ferrari had signed contracts to field teams then they sell like the whole damn thing to ford WTF. they were going to have ford,toyota,honda,lambo,ferrari and possible chevy and then sell out to ford?

Colour me confused. Is this recent? Exactly when did Lamborghini (and Ferrari??) have any plans to run Champ cars in the 21st century?

C.

Layla's Keeper
03-16-2005, 12:27 AM
Well, I remember when Ferrari was planning an assault on Indy in the 80's. Never got past the prototype stage, but the car was damn fast.

http://www.ferrarimodelsclub.it/images/indy.jpg
http://www.barchetta.cc/Common/Images/Scans.Eventi/98.GF.JR/Large/F1...GF.005.jpg
http://web.telia.com/~u85900964/AtlasBB/Ferrari-indy-01.jpg

But Lamborghini has a factory history of staying out of competition, and the few factory attempts have been at the insistence of others (Jota SV-J was Bob Wallace and Giampaolo Dallara's project originally, the Larrouse Lamborghini F1 team was really Chrysler's doing, and the factory Murciealago R-GT's only lasted two races in ALMS competition before Volkswagen pulled the plug on the program).

And, to be honest Tiger, I haven't heard anyone say they were "watching" CART since 1996. It's always "supporting" or "boycotting" CART. In fact, I've only heard IRL versus CART vitriol that drives me crazy as an open wheel fan because THEY'RE BOTH FUCKING WRONG. The correct answer is, and forever shall be USAC.

Although if ISMA took over the 500, I'd be pretty happy with that, too. Especially considering how "Indy" supermods have been getting recently.

http://www.ismasupers.com/Roster%20Pages/2004/800-4-Joey-Payne.jpg
http://www.ismasupers.com/Roster%20Pages/7-700-C-Tim-Jedrzejek.jpg
http://www.ismasupers.com/Roster%20Pages/800-8-Justin-Belfiore.jpg
http://www.ismasupers.com/Roster%20Pages/61-800-C-Mike-Ordway.jpg
http://www.ismasupers.com/Roster%20Pages/2004/1000-DSC_7499.jpg

They already crack 170-180 going down the front straights at Mansfield or Oswego, and you better believe if we ever figure out how to get a big enough gear in the quick change that we could run 210+ at a mile to mile and a 1/2 track like Nazareth or Milwaukee.

Layla's Keeper
03-16-2005, 01:31 AM
Laylas Keeper-your solution is nice for anyone who doesn't get physically nauseous from watching oval let alone open-wheel winged oval. Hopefully both series will ultimately survice and prosper.

On behalf of the entire midwestern open wheel community that lives in the shadow of the Brickyard and made it the most important race in the world, I'd like to invite you to play a nice game of hide and go fuck yourself.

I happen to DRIVE winged oval. 305 Sprint Asphalt Series and Midwest Supermodified Association/International Super Modified Association test driver. They're some of the most demanding cars inthe world to drive, and no lesser drivers than Mario Andretti and A.J. Foyt came from their ranks. I run road racing, and have been wrenching on an MGB for drifting for the past four years. But I learned car control in these vicious 1400lb steel birdcages.

#98, I don't care what road racing you love or don't love. I don't care what sort of snobbery you think you can ascribe to because you're a road racing fan. Nobody, but NOBODY, is going to give me shit about ISMA Supermodifieds OR the Indy 500. The people I've known in this sport give their all and more.

My car owner, Dion Parrish, the first man who'd give me a full season competition ride (taking me out of a testing role), died testing the car I'd have taken over.

Ken Boldman, the owner of team RaceRace America Ltd, which campaigned supermodifieds for Dave "The Shoe" Shullick, was still writing checks and meeting with engine builders while lying in the hospital dying of malignant cancer. The engines he had custom built by Kevin Enders took The Shoe and his rookie son D.J. (Shoe II to his fans) to a 1-2 finish in the Hy-Miler Nationals. They were delievered two weeks after he passed on.

You think you're going to shit on America's racing legacy? Not on my watch peon.

#98
03-16-2005, 02:33 AM
lol@your self-righteous rant. You're obviously an insane individual and your attempts at humor are quite pathetic. Your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired as well because you obviously did not understand me in the least.

First of all I never said that winged-oval wasn't hard. All motorsport types require serious skill from sprint cars to touring cars, from legends to formula atlantic, etc.. And where did I assert otherwise? Oh yeah, I didn't. So learn to control yourself.

I know many people in the oval community myself and am friends with them. Your points about sick people still running their race programs have nothing to do with anything.

America's racing legacy is a lot more than just winged-oval...I suggest you get your shit straight.

LOL, my only point in fact was that you suggested the solution to CART and IRL was simply replacing it with winged-oval, but not everybody likes winged-oval. Not everybody like road racing either. You need both series for the different crowds...

lol, I don't know you well, but you seem to take yourself a little too seriously. And I pray that your bio tid-bit about having an 188 IQ is a wishful joke...cause...

Layla's Keeper
03-16-2005, 06:30 PM
lol@your self-righteous rant. You're obviously an insane individual and your attempts at humor are quite pathetic. Your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired as well because you obviously did not understand me in the least.

First of all I never said that winged-oval wasn't hard. All motorsport types require serious skill from sprint cars to touring cars, from legends to formula atlantic, etc.. And where did I assert otherwise? Oh yeah, I didn't. So learn to control yourself.

I know many people in the oval community myself and am friends with them. Your points about sick people still running their race programs have nothing to do with anything.

America's racing legacy is a lot more than just winged-oval...I suggest you get your shit straight.

LOL, my only point in fact was that you suggested the solution to CART and IRL was simply replacing it with winged-oval, but not everybody likes winged-oval. Not everybody like road racing either. You need both series for the different crowds...

lol, I don't know you well, but you seem to take yourself a little too seriously. And I pray that your bio tid-bit about having an 188 IQ is a wishful joke...cause...


My point was to fix Indy. Indy is an oval, and all that matters about Indy is open-wheel oval racing. The IRL betrayed the drivers who race in its shadow when they failed to follow through on their promise to repair the disintegration of the relationship between USAC and CART. CART screwed us over when they took the grandeur that USAC created during the heydey of the Eagle chassis and the Offenhauser engine and squandered it trying to become Formula One.

Since 1996, CART has imploded. Under the idiotic guidance of professional fucktards Paul Gentilozzi and Kevin Kahlkhoven, CART has lost its relevance to ANYTHING. CART went from Zanardi and Montoya being bought into quality F1 rides to Sebastien Bourdais having to shove his championship down the throats of every F1 team boss he could just to get considered for a test.

Since 1996, the IRL has failed on every promise. The engines are no longer production based. The chassis rules are no longer frozen so that used equipment can still be made competitive. There never was a bridge from short track open wheel to Indy cars. The series is abandoning the traditional Indycar tracks like Nazareth. Toyota and Honda, with the help of Chip Ganassi, Roger Penske, and Bobby Rahal (which is a shame because these three men are all team bosses I hold in high regard), have turned the IRL into CART2 when the series needs to be INDYCARS.

This year, USAC has developed a new susperspeedway variant of its Silver Crown chassis as Bruton Smith and ISC have invited USAC to Kansas City, Chicagoland, and other such tracks. What NASCAR and its affiliates have realized is that well over 1/2 of the new drivers in NASCAR come from an open wheel background. They realize that the fans come out in droves for USAC races. Eldora, IRP, Irwindale, all these 1/2mile and smaller tracks can easily get 10k people in for their races. 10k supplemental fans at Chicagoland or Gateway for an inexpensive to run show (USAC events hardly need the security, press, or other such "big time" nonsense) can really help these bigger tracks with only one NASCAR Cup date or - even worse - only Busch or Craftsman Truck dates.

The reason USAC maintains such a high fanbase, and high car counts, and still is inexpensive to run, is because the cars can be raced at a local level or at least maintain relevance to local racing (Silver Crown cars employ starters, a longer wheelbase frame, and a transmission). Local drivers can unbolt the wings (if need be) and make a name for themselves. They get attention, sponsors, and recognition, without needing a mint in their back pocket to build a one-off car that they're completely unfamiliar with.

You say America's racing legacy is more than ovals. This is entirely true. America holds a novel distinction within the world of motorsport - We not only race everything, but we have sanctioning bodies for everything and we have a higher number of amateur participants in racing than any other country. Just about ANYONE with a car can pay a due to the SCCA and autocross or enter a bracket race at their local drag strip. People with a little more mechanical aptitude can grab a car out of a junkyard, gut it, paint it, and race at a short track on a weekly basis, or assemble a kit road racer, or build a dedicated drag car, or construct a rock crawling Jeep, or dash up Pikes Peak, or scratchbuild a 300mph Deuce roadster to run at Muroc twice a year, or whatever their pocketbook, ambition, and skill allows.

But, when you look at where our motorsport was birthed, where our racing heritage comes from - our individuality and our distinction - it comes from the barnstorming days when Barney Oldfield and the Blitzen Benz raced on horsetracks for sport and amusement. It comes from names like Miller, Mays, and Rickenbacker. And most of all it comes from Memorial Day weekend, 1911, when a yellow Marmon Wasp wearing the world's first rear view mirror completed 500miles at an average of a little under 75mph. That day, Ray Harroun became a legend, and became a hero of unquestionable distinction. He combined craftiness, skill, and technical ability to win the first Indianapolis 500.

Since that day, the Indy 500 has always been the calling card of American motorsport. We have no greater, more glorious race. The course is still surprisingly difficult, even in these days of downforce and telemetry. The allure of heroism and riches still entices drivers from all forms of motorsport, and the winner still can make his career with just this one race. To see the best of American racing, one needs only to turn through the pages of the tomes of Indy history to see just about every major name in racing. In fact, so great is Indy, the world comes to us just for its allure.

I grew up around Sandusky Speedway, a 1/2mile oval in Northern Ohio. Sandusky has birthed several Indy competitors and one two time winner in Gordon Johncock. The drivers and techs who've journeyed to Indy, no matter their results, have always returned as conquering heroes. Their names may only merit statistics in the Indianapolis stat books, but Todd Gibson, Bentley Warren, Nolan Johncock, Nolan Swift, Joe Gosek, and Timmy Richmond have all become mythic figures by simply being a part of Indy history. There are tracks across the nation like Sandusky with similar mythic figures. From the California clay that gave us Bill Vukovich, to the Kansas wheatfields that brought us Johnny Rutherford, there are countless examples of the legacy I spoke of that brings the world to our door as a racing nation.

I see Indy waning and I weep to see the single most important motor race in our history in such poor shape. I don't want there to not be top level open wheel road racing in the United States, we need a proving ground that can send drivers to F1. But it CANNOT happen at the detriment of American racing's legacy. Indy is the legacy of American Motorsport, and I fully believe that no matter what we must save Indy at all costs.

As someone who makes their living with the automobile and automobile racing, I do take MY JOB very seriously. Yes, the 188IQ is a joke just in case someone actually bothers to read my bio (sheesh, why would I want to be some arrogant MENSA savant?) but far from a wishful one. You, on the other hand, throw around comments about "oval racing making people nauseous" and other such anti-oval rhetoric and expect it to be taken jokingly without labeling it as such? I do want IRL and CART to DIE OFF. They've both completely screwed the pooch as far as open wheel in America is concerned. Hell, CART can't even get the drivers from their OWN FEEDER SERIES to stick with the program (Valiante, Patrick, Rice) and pick up rides and the IRL needs its series president to field cars to bump up the car count (Tony George's Vision Racing).

Why should I support series that neither support their roots, nor expand their presence in motorsport? Why should I support series that would rather squabble over each other's meager scraps than assail their biggest competitors? What godforsaken reason beyond "well, they have some fans" can you give me that earns either CART or the IRL the right to fuck up the Indy 500?

#98
03-16-2005, 11:31 PM
[QUOTE=Layla's Keeper]

Since 1996, CART has imploded. Under the idiotic guidance of professional fucktards Paul Gentilozzi and Kevin Kahlkhoven, CART has lost its relevance to ANYTHING. CART went from Zanardi and Montoya being bought into quality F1 rides to Sebastien Bourdais having to shove his championship down the throats of every F1 team boss he could just to get considered for a test.

QUOTE]


lol, I won't argue you with there.

IRL is such an amazing bore. I went to the Milwaukee Mile this past summer and the USAC races were so much more entertaining. Still, it wasn't my cup of tea, but I can see why it has a loyal following and a big field of entries.

I respect the tradition of the 500 and understand your reasons for wanting IRL and CART to die off. However, oval doesn't entertain me so I want CART to flourish while the egomaniac bosses find some way to return the Indy 500 to its past glory. But can it ever really return to its past glory when NASCAR has taken over the helm as by far America's most popular form of racing. Probably not. Open wheel community's fault for ever letting them take that position in the first place.

Tiger Racing
03-17-2005, 12:53 AM
Well, I remember when Ferrari was planning an assault on Indy in the 80's. Never got past the prototype stage, but the car was damn fast.

That's the Ferrari 637 designed by Gustav Bruner. Ferrari was in the midst of another disagreement with the FIA and upped the ante by threatening to take his team to Indy. It was never a serious threat.

the factory Murciealago R-GT's only lasted two races in ALMS competition before Volkswagen pulled the plug on the program).

The team that ran a couple of races last season? That was Dick Barbour's team and the reason he pulled the plug is that the Lamborghini Factory didn't live up to their pre-season promises of technical support. It was never a Factory team.

And, to be honest Tiger, I haven't heard anyone say they were "watching" CART since 1996. It's always "supporting" or "boycotting" CART.

Interesting. I know plenty of people who watch CART and enjoy it.

Although if ISMA took over the 500, I'd be pretty happy with that, too. Especially considering how "Indy" supermods have been getting recently.

A favor? Could you maybe refrain from posting multiple, huge photos? I travel quite a bit and don't always have a cable hookup and even at home right now, my cable connection is struggling. I realize this is one of those forums where massive sig files are welcomed, but adding pics on top of that really slows things down.

They already crack 170-180 going down the front straights at Mansfield or Oswego, and you better believe if we ever figure out how to get a big enough gear in the quick change that we could run 210+ at a mile to mile and a 1/2 track like Nazareth or Milwaukee.

Yes, but... why would you want to? I've done 170 in a straight line and my experience has been that the only really exciting part of it is the braking at the end. The esses at Road Atlanta are a much bigger thrill and take quite a bit more skill to negotiate than the back straight does.

C.

Layla's Keeper
03-17-2005, 01:25 AM
Ahem, the ISMA track record at Toledo Speedway as of 2003, a 1/2mile oval, is a 13.187second lap. That works out to a lap speed average of 136.49mph. Now, according to radar gun measurements taken at the start/finish line, the track record holder (Chris Perley "The Rowley Rocket") was cracking about 177 by mid-straight. No matter how you slice it, that's some wicked acceleration and deceleration.

Oddly enough, thanks to the fact that they're lighter, can turn higher revs (410ci small blocks versus 468ci big blocks), and run only about 3 inches less rear tire total than the supermods, the AVSS/HOSS Super Sprints are actually faster than the ISMA Supermodifieds at Toledo. The 2003 AVSS record setter was Kevin Feeney who wheeled his sprint to a ridiculously fast 12.958second lap. A full 3mph faster on average. :sunglasse

And I'll agree with you that braking down from 170 to get into a corner is more fun than just accelerating up to 170 in a straight line. However, getting up to that 170 coming out of a tight corner while surrounded by open wheel machines all dancing on the edge of grip, getting ready to latebrake into a tight corner to try and out distance yourself from the other guys is even more exciting especially when it all happens in less than 5 seconds.

Think about it, if in race pace a supermod turns a 14-15second lap then depending on the track layout it's spending between 5.6 to 1.875 seconds on each straightaway. That's not much time to pick your line, pick your braking point, and still process where the ass end wants to go, where all of your competitors are (because you can bet there'll be a guy hunting around outside of you, a guy trying to sneak beneath you from behind, a guy on that guy's push bar, and a guy you're trying to get around) and of course to check all of your gauges to make sure you'll be able to do it all again on the next lap.

The excitement in driving an overpowered open wheel machine like a supermodified or sprint car is in blinding acceleration, ridiculously high levels of grip, brutal response, and insanely close racing.

http://www.jerseyracing.com/051504clips.html

There, watch the Offset Outlaws in action for yourself at Wall Stadium (SCCA Formula Drift will be opening their season at this track this year, oddly enough) and see just what I mean. There's nothing like a supermod.

#98
03-17-2005, 01:45 AM
If you've ever seen the lawn-mower rider racing series you'd know it's the best form of motorsport. I think it should replace the 500.

Layla's Keeper
03-17-2005, 02:00 AM
Not a debate of better or worse. I freely admit to being a fan of and participant of road racing. My father even has wheeled GLH Omnis to SCCA club wins at Nelson's Ledges and Mid-Ohio. I love road racing, but I love oval racing too.

Tiger asked why go 210mph down the front straight at Milwaukee or Nazareth. The answer is because we already go 170+ down the front straight at Toledo or Mansfield turning 468ci Chevy's at upwards of 7500rpm. Our cars are capable of more speed, we just don't have the components (quick change rear-ends can only hold so big a gear and the cars are direct drive) to pull the faster speeds and to keep from floating valves and banging pistons. A Chevy big block just isn't engineered to rev as high as we rev them right now, and with our rulebook there are no more revs to be found without ridiculously short strokes or custom forged 90 degree flat plane cranks (and trust me, some of the higher dollar teams do run those and have made it all the way up to 8100rpm).

Our engines produce the power (850+ hp) to run the cars at much higher speeds with bigger gearing. We just can't put bigger gears in the cars. We can hit 200+ mph with proper gearing. That's why we want to.

Tiger also commented that in his opinion high speeds on a straightaway aren't that exciting. My response was that the high speed in the middle of the straight is only a small part of the excitement.

I think it was no less a man than Dan Gurney who said "A short track is a road course with four corners." The racing is the same breed of stuff, just with more specialized equipment and fewer corners. This isn't superspeedway "set it and forget it" "can't fall out of the draft" nonsense. This is real racing that requires good braking, good lines, and real knowledge of suspension, tires, aerodynamics, and engines.

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