500 Horsepower Nissan Skyline GT-R to Make Speed World Challenge Debut


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Tiger Racing
03-19-2005, 12:44 AM
How many cars total will be racing in a normal WCGT season? I would put money that the GTR would finish in the top 50%, if it can get a full season in.

Yeah, that's not all that hard to do as long as your car is reliable enough to finish the races. You do realize that the predictions for this car are slipping? First it was top 15s and top 10 finishes in races and now it's finishing in the top 50% in points for the season. HUGE difference there. :)

As far as the IQ, you are missing my point. Don't key in on the fact that he is just a smart kid, he has a plan

You mean the plan where he goes straight from karting to professional road racing in less than a year and half?

he has a team, and the kids has some skills, not necessarily on the race course yet, but with practise it will come.

I don't know what skills you're talking about, but there is no guarantee of racing talent no matter how much practice someone has, let alone a mere 15 months or so.

As for the way he is going about it, speculation on my parts, it has to do with the car.

Could be. I'm still curious.

C.

SkylineUSA
03-19-2005, 01:01 AM
Yeah, that's not all that hard to do as long as your car is reliable enough to finish the races. You do realize that the predictions for this car are slipping? First it was top 15s and top 10 finishes in races and now it's finishing in the top 50% in points for the season. HUGE difference there. :)

I have a more realistic point of view, I never said top 15:)

You mean the plan where he goes straight from karting to professional road racing in less than a year and half?

Time will tell.

I don't know what skills you're talking about, but there is no guarantee of racing talent no matter how much practice someone has, let alone a mere 15 months or so.

Once again, time will tell.

Could be. I'm still curious.

What do you know about the GTR? I have seen a GTR take out 911s, 355s, M3s, Evos, WRXs, Elises, NSXs, and GTOs in a head to head road racing circuit. And that was with the R33s. The R34 is a much better car than the R33.

Tiger,

So how many cars are in this racing series?

Layla's Keeper
03-19-2005, 01:10 AM
Ignorance is bliss.

That has to be one of the most uniformed quotes I have seen posted on the internet, way to go 98.

Are you willing to tell us flat out that the R34 GTR Skyline will outhandle the Viper Competition Coupes, the Pratt & Miller Caddy CTS-V's, the Farnbacher Racing Porsche 911GT3's, the Leighton Reese C6 Corvette, and the myriad number of C5 Corvette Z06's?

Especially considering that the series runs a spec tire with spec sizes. From the Speed World Challenge site themselves.

Grand Touring (GT): The tires used are the Toyo Proxes RA-1 race compound DOT-approved tire. The size(s) used depend on the GT car. The sizes used in the GT class are the 245/40/18, 275/35/18, 305/35/18 and 335/30/18.

According to jbskyline.net, R34 GTR Skylines use 245/40 ZR18's off the showroom floor. SWC does make rules allotments for widened cars (very specific rules about how you can widen the fenders and by how much, though) and may allow use of the 305's, but it all depends on what the SCCA says you can run.

Layla's Keeper
03-19-2005, 01:35 AM
31 GT cars showed up at Sebring this weekend. Here's the field breakdown.

11 Viper Competition Coupes
5 Porsche 911 GT3 Cups
2 Pratt & Miller Cadillac CTS-V's
4 Corvette C5 Z06's
3 Corvette C6's
1 1st generation Viper GTS coupe
2 Volvo S60R's
1 Saleen SR351
1 Pontiac GTO
1 Ford Mustang

SkylineUSA
03-19-2005, 02:11 AM
Are you willing to tell us flat out that the R34 GTR Skyline will outhandle the Viper Competition Coupes, the Pratt & Miller Caddy CTS-V's, the Farnbacher Racing Porsche 911GT3's, the Leighton Reese C6 Corvette, and the myriad number of C5 Corvette Z06's?

Especially considering that the series runs a spec tire with spec sizes. From the Speed World Challenge site themselves.



According to jbskyline.net, R34 GTR Skylines use 245/40 ZR18's off the showroom floor. SWC does make rules allotments for widened cars (very specific rules about how you can widen the fenders and by how much, though) and may allow use of the 305's, but it all depends on what the SCCA says you can run.


Can out handle, hopefully we will see one way or the other.

Like Tiger mentioned, I am curious to find out.

The GTR is a very capable car. Top 50%, I would consider that being very competitive for a first year car, no?

#98
03-19-2005, 03:36 AM
Could be. I'm still curious.

What do you know about the GTR? I have seen a GTR take out 911s, 355s, M3s, Evos, WRXs, Elises, NSXs, and GTOs in a head to head road racing circuit. And that was with the R33s. The R34 is a much better car than the R33.
[/B]


What are you referring to like that Japanese show that usually takes a bunch of exotic cars and throws on that circuit together? Regardless, most of what you've seen is probably not worth much in telling how good a car is. You'll see a Civic take out a Ferrari if one is a fully built racecar and the other one is just a cage. Most of the things you see on the internet aren't reliable. Most of those cars you mentioned are not really Speed-GT level cars. Speed GT is really somewhere between GT and GTS in classic terms. 355s would simply be demolished by even the slowest Speed GT cars and the M3 was never really meant to compete with V10s and 5 liter V8s with an I6. When it got the 4 liter V8 it kicked ass, but the 3.2 liter L6 is just too stressed already for GT, but it grab some poles and wins in the L6 format just cause it handles so well.

Anyway, back further you said "ignorance is bliss" and even more hilariously "that is the most uninformed comment ever" in regards to my statement that the Skyline's handling isn't that legendary. The Skyline handles great no doubt about it, but some make it out as if it's simply the best handling car ever or something when simply there are a bunch that handle better. Its mystique comes from its ability to create massive power, the forgiveness of a somewhat softly sprung awd the fantastic launches, but then a little bit too much from the internet which is filled mostly with kids who obsess over anything turbo and awd. The fact that is has never come to the US and appeared even less in American and European road racing has led to teens routinely making hyperbolic assumptions. Unfortunately it won't be able to race in the power trims that the most famous skylines have featured. Besides, in racing AWD is a whole other ball game as you're going to be experiencing the cost of extra wear on the front tires that rwd cars won't have, especially with the understeer that cars like the Skyline tend to create. The Skyline makes non-world-class drivers like us better...it lets us beat faster cars cause it's so forgiving. But world-class drivers don't need forgiving cars and a 911 is a better handling car when driven perfectly...most of us would die trying to drive a 911 anywhere near the limit, but look relatively decent driving a Skyline hard. And like I said, regardless of how well it handled compared to its contemporaries, it's an aging platform contesting against state of the art equipment.

Anyway kids, don't forget to miss the 12 hours of Sebring today (sat) to get a taste for the kind of action you see in Speed GT...Unfortunately they usually focus almost solely on the P1 category and GTS. F1 follows it too, but it has turned into somewhat of a bore fest.

SkylineUSA
03-19-2005, 05:14 AM
What are you referring to like that Japanese show that usually takes a bunch of exotic cars and throws on that circuit together? Regardless, most of what you've seen is probably not worth much in telling how good a car is. You'll see a Civic take out a Ferrari if one is a fully built racecar and the other one is just a cage. Most of the things you see on the internet aren't reliable. Most of those cars you mentioned are not really Speed-GT level cars. Speed GT is really somewhere between GT and GTS in classic terms. 355s would simply be demolished by even the slowest Speed GT cars and the M3 was never really meant to compete with V10s and 5 liter V8s with an I6. When it got the 4 liter V8 it kicked ass, but the 3.2 liter L6 is just too stressed already for GT, but it grab some poles and wins in the L6 format just cause it handles so well.

Anyway, back further you said "ignorance is bliss" and even more hilariously "that is the most uninformed comment ever" in regards to my statement that the Skyline's handling isn't that legendary. The Skyline handles great no doubt about it, but some make it out as if it's simply the best handling car ever or something when simply there are a bunch that handle better. Its mystique comes from its ability to create massive power, the forgiveness of a somewhat softly sprung awd the fantastic launches, but then a little bit too much from the internet which is filled mostly with kids who obsess over anything turbo and awd. The fact that is has never come to the US and appeared even less in American and European road racing has led to teens routinely making hyperbolic assumptions. Unfortunately it won't be able to race in the power trims that the most famous skylines have featured. Besides, in racing AWD is a whole other ball game as you're going to be experiencing the cost of extra wear on the front tires that rwd cars won't have, especially with the understeer that cars like the Skyline tend to create. The Skyline makes non-world-class drivers like us better...it lets us beat faster cars cause it's so forgiving. But world-class drivers don't need forgiving cars and a 911 is a better handling car when driver perfectly, but most of us would die trying to drive a 911 and look good driving a Skyline. And like I said, regardless of how well it handled compared to its contemporaries, it's an aging platform contesting against state of the art equipment.

Anyway kids, don't forget to miss the 12 hours of Sebring today (sat) to get a taste for the kind of action you see in Speed GT...Unfortunately they usually focus almost solely on the P1 category and GTS. F1 follows it too, but it has turned into somewhat of a bore fest.

GTRs are not AWD. They are really partial AWD, more power to the ground.

But, you do make some good points.

I live in England, so I get to see a totally different realm that what you guys do for racing. So, I will have to wait and see the results posted on the internet.

One question 98, how many GTRs have you seen race in person? I have seen well over 100.

Good luck to all that have entered the race, and be safe.

Time will tell once the GTR can get in there and play.

#98
03-19-2005, 06:50 AM
Haven't seen much live action and what I have seen is not sound for judgement. What kind of races did you watch the Skylines participate in? Club level racing is sort of unhelpful for determining how cars will perform in professional series.

A little more info the 12 Hours of Sebring for anyone reading the thread. On Speed throughout most of the day...here are some interesting entries in addition to the dominant R8s, Vettes and GT3s in case you need some more convincing to watch it:

TVR 400
Spyker
Maserati MC12 (the enzo-dervied GT1 car)
Aston Martin's new DB9 GT1 car
TVR 400

Fully entry list and site link:

http://www.imsaracing.net/2003/events/sebring05/entrylist.pdf

and

http://www.sebringraceway.com/information.html

SkylineUSA
03-19-2005, 09:43 AM
It's really a mute point either way. Let's just wait and see what happens when the GTR gets its chance.

I understand what you are say, it's very hard to be competitive with a bunch of unknowns. It takes years to get where these guys are at in this type of racing series, with their skills, cars, crew, learning the courses, sponsors, etc. The fact that this GTR might be thrown into the mix with a very young driver is ludicrous (in my best mike tyson voice), but if anyone can do it, Igor is your man

98, thanks for the links, very cool site.

TatII
03-19-2005, 10:56 AM
let me just add something here. i'm not road racer,and i sure as hell don't participate in proffessional road racing. but what makes this GTR different from buy just any other GT-R and modding our selves is that, the car that Igor bought is already a race car in the japanese proffesional league. Sure its no JGTC 500 car that pulls 3 G's in the corner average, but its still a japanese race car built by the same team that built the legendary 24 hour le man's racer Falken GT-R. so your saying that a 24 hour le mans race car is not in the same pedigree as the speed world challenge? the Falken GT-R ranked as high as 3rd in the nurburgring in 2003 before a clutch failure kept it off the podium. so a GT-R's chassis is still competitive with todays modern cars as long as its built right, and this GT-R is built by those same guys so i can safely say it is tuned right.

also this car already has its history of winning endurance races, the setup is proven to work and its victories proof it. now i'm just alittle worried about igor being competitive enough to race it to its 100% potential, but i'm no one to judge since i have no experience so i'm not goin to add any comment on that.

SkylineUSA
03-19-2005, 01:03 PM
let me just add something here. i'm not road racer,and i sure as hell don't participate in proffessional road racing. but what makes this GTR different from buy just any other GT-R and modding our selves is that, the car that Igor bought is already a race car in the japanese proffesional league. Sure its no JGTC 500 car that pulls 3 G's in the corner average, but its still a japanese race car built by the same team that built the legendary 24 hour le man's racer Falken GT-R. so your saying that a 24 hour le mans race car is not in the same pedigree as the speed world challenge? the Falken GT-R ranked as high as 3rd in the nurburgring in 2003 before a clutch failure kept it off the podium. so a GT-R's chassis is still competitive with todays modern cars as long as its built right, and this GT-R is built by those same guys so i can safely say it is tuned right.

also this car already has its history of winning endurance races, the setup is proven to work and its victories proof it. now i'm just alittle worried about igor being competitive enough to race it to its 100% potential, but i'm no one to judge since i have no experience so i'm not goin to add any comment on that.

The avg. guy in the States really knows nothing about their history, the fact that they were killing everyone, even when the were adding weight to the GTRs to try to even the playing field.

Godzilla, the race history (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=231647)

Tiger Racing
03-19-2005, 01:05 PM
What do you know about the GTR?

Almost nothing about the cars that have raced overseas and even less about World Challenge spec GTRs because they don't exist yet.

I have seen a GTR take out 911s, 355s, M3s, Evos, WRXs, Elises, NSXs, and GTOs in a head to head road racing circuit.

My 355 Challenge car has bested most of those cars at various events. Of course, none of those were World Challenge cars. My Mustang has left my 355's times in the dust, but has taken years to come up to World Challenge speeds. I did watch a Mustang wipe the floor with other GT cars at the Laguna Seca race last October, but then it was being driven by a well respected and seasoned professional, Boris Said. As another poster alluded to, you really need to have an idea of the specs for each car to compare before being impressed by one beating another.

So how many cars are in this racing series?

You can find entry lists for the past five years on the World Challenge website.

http://www.world-challenge.com/2005/entrylist-gt.html

Last year, an average of 30 cars were entered in each race. Currently there are 51 cars registered for the 2005 season, but less than half of those are regulars.

Top 50%, I would consider that being very competitive for a first year car, no?

Not really. Like I said, just finishing each of the 10 or so races in a season will likely put you in the top 50% in points for the year. Hel, I finished in the top third in my second year and that was driving my 355.

C.

Tiger Racing
03-19-2005, 01:25 PM
the car that Igor bought is already a race car in the japanese proffesional league. Sure its no JGTC 500 car that pulls 3 G's in the corner average, but its still a japanese race car built by the same team that built the legendary 24 hour le man's racer Falken GT-R. so your saying that a 24 hour le mans race car is not in the same pedigree as the speed world challenge?

Actually, Le Mans spec is a few steps above World Challenge. A car taken to that degree would not be elibigle for WCGT.

C.

SkylineUSA
03-19-2005, 01:25 PM
I remember Boris Said's name from a few years ago when the late Paul Mumford beat him and the rest of the feild at Laguna.

I'm here to tell you guys/gal, the GTR is bred for this type of racing. Most of the guys here in England try to turn them into 1/4 milers, but that is not what they were built for.

I am not going to predict what the car will do anymore, but I will say you will take notice, good or bad:D

TatII
03-19-2005, 01:42 PM
Actually, Le Mans spec is a few steps above World Challenge. A car taken to that degree would not be elibigle for WCGT.

C.

this car is not the exact car that raced in le mans, it doesn't have a stroked 2.8 liter block, this one is pretty much a stock engined car with bolt ons, and it doenst' have the widend track either. however the point that i was making was that these people who built this particular GT-R also built a 24 hour le mans car, which means these guys knows what they are doing. i'm not sayin the car is goin to dominate, but i'm pretty sure it will be a competitive car.

SkylineUSA
03-19-2005, 03:43 PM
I just noticed Igor, you have the Michael Jordan of NISMO R34 GTRs :D #23

ac427cpe
03-19-2005, 04:04 PM
What so many of you have failed to see is that we are talking about a relatively greenhorn driver (no offence Igor, i'm comparing you at a professional level) in an unknown car competing in one of the most demanding races in the US. It will be a great experience for him and the team, and will greatly help broaden his views on the racing world. I don't think he's ready to jump straight to that level, but with a year's worth of practice (which he will also need to achieve the required licensing) he will know what he's doing enough to SAFELY be in the field.

For those saying the car will make a HUGE difference and equalize the field... since it is the first to run in the US at that level, the SCCA will TEAR IT APART. There is no precident so they will be able to mandate whatever they want about the car. They might say it can run as it is, they might make him race it at a stripped down STOCK trim with their chosen tire size. The car won't make a huge difference, all the cars out there have their advantages and disadvantages, but they will all be prepared racecars, set up to the pinnacle of what the SCCA will allow for them. the fact that it is a skyline might put him at more of a disadvantage, but we won't know till he is able to register it.

i'm curious to see what will happen if he can get it into the SWC, i just think it's a bit too soon to speculate anything.

igor@af
03-20-2005, 09:30 AM
Having spent this past week at Sebring and not having time to read the entire thread at this point as I am flying out to NY Auto Show here in an hour, I just want to say this.

This speculation on my performance sounds rather pointless. (note to C. - I didn't make either of these statements, nor do I agree with them, but just doing comparative math here - "top 15" and "top 50%" in a ~31 car field is about the same to me.)

As much experience as you, #98, and you, C., might have, I am also going to consider what the likes of Michael Krumm (JGTC), Divina Galica (F1), and Stu Hayner (you know him), had to say to me at Sebring. Not to mention Jorge Koechlin, Roland Linder, and Jim Hall....

I appreciate everything that anyone takes the time to input, as the more I know the better. So thank you all!

tyndago
03-20-2005, 11:31 AM
2004 VTS sheets showing the Nissan Skyline GT-R

http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/04vts.html

For the people asking how SCCA could allow the Skyline GT-R in World Challenge.

tyndago
03-20-2005, 05:46 PM
According to jbskyline.net, R34 GTR Skylines use 245/40 ZR18's off the showroom floor. SWC does make rules allotments for widened cars (very specific rules about how you can widen the fenders and by how much, though) and may allow use of the 305's, but it all depends on what the SCCA says you can run.

Tire size is dependent on weight of the vehicle. With that said.

The Volvo S60 runs 305 all around

The Audi's last year ran 305 all around

The 911 Turbo AWD runs 305 front and 335 rear.

http://www.speedvisionwc.com/competitors/bulletins/05-wc-gt-appendixa-1.pdf


We know what the GT-R currently weighs. We have an expectation on our base weight.

tyndago
03-20-2005, 08:16 PM
There's a double regional at Buttonwillow this weekend...but I'm assuming he doesn't have his regional license yet. Are you even SCCA members yet?

Not a track that World Challenge competes on. With 363 days left, we dont have time for every track- every event. We do have time for the events on tracks that world challenge is running on. We may do some closed testing at Willow, Buttonwillow.

Igor has his regional license. We are SCCA members.

Which reminds me, you do know that Igor will need to complete a bunch of national level races to even qualify for the pro-license required for WC. And before he can get a national license to compete in national events he needs to get a novice-license and then compete 4 regional races.

We are aware of this ( Article 1 General regulation SCCA Pro Racing Series- 1.5.9.2). You can also have an FIA license(1.5.8). Or SCCA can give you a provisional license (1.5.9.7).

The best route would be to purchase a spec-miata to compete in for the rest of the season.

Like ways to skin a cat - everyone will give slightly different advice on how to get more practice. Most people we have spoken to however, have said karts are a good place to hone skills, and learn.

The New York auto show is this week.The next item on the Calendar - is Skip Barber at Laguna Seca, a World Challenge track. 5 days at Laguna is a good starting point.

pimp1911
03-20-2005, 10:05 PM
I just read all 10 pages of this thread. Igor go for it. You got my support.

Tiger Racing
03-20-2005, 10:17 PM
This speculation on my performance sounds rather pointless. (note to C. - I didn't make either of these statements, nor do I agree with them, but just doing comparative math here - "top 15" and "top 50%" in a ~31 car field is about the same to me.)

Not quite. The speculation was top 15 in individual races or top 50% overall for the year if you run the entire season. Totally different statistics there. And the only thing pointless is assuming that someone with absolutely no experience will be able to kick butt over Championship winning drivers based partly on the fact that he's a cool guy. :smile:

I am also going to consider what the likes of Michael Krumm (JGTC), Divina Galica (F1), and Stu Hayner (you know him), had to say to me at Sebring.

And they told you... what?

C.

Tiger Racing
03-20-2005, 10:38 PM
Not a track that World Challenge competes on. With 363 days left, we dont have time for every track- every event. We do have time for the events on tracks that world challenge is running on. We may do some closed testing at Willow, Buttonwillow.

SCCA or NASA races can be great ways to get in cheap testing time against competition. Of course it's good to get practice on tracks that you will actually run pro races on, but local tracks are a great resource for many reasons.

You can also have an FIA license(1.5.8).

To get an FIA license, you have to have a license thru a sanctioning body like SCCA or Grand Am. Getting an FIA license is a bit harder than getting a standard, pro racing thru SCCA.

Most people we have spoken to however, have said karts are a good place to hone skills, and learn.

Oh, absolutely, everyone I know says that karting is great practice for all kinds of racing. But has anyone told you that one year running karts is enough practice to be competitive in the most competitive road racing series in the US?

The New York auto show is this week.

You going to be in New York? Come by the Ford booth and introduce yourself if you're there on the press or preview days. I'll be there with our '05 Mustang show car. We're using it to help promote our racing.

C.

DJ RaYgU
03-21-2005, 01:12 AM
woot!!! congrats!! go GT-R!!!! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

#98
03-21-2005, 01:53 AM
Not a track that World Challenge competes on. With 363 days left, we dont have time for every track- every event. We do have time for the events on tracks that world challenge is running on. We may do some closed testing at Willow, Buttonwillow.

I know it's not, but it's a quality track close to you with faster drivers than you for which you can get experience on. It also has national races for meeting requirements. It's not as if you can have you have a crew roaming the country going to different tracks each week...


Like ways to skin a cat - everyone will give slightly different advice on how to get more practice. Most people we have spoken to however, have said karts are a good place to hone skills, and learn.


Well, they're wrong. With 12 months left you need saloon-car experience. I can't stress how different karts drive, how different the lines are, how different the passing is, etc. Is the Skyline even eligible for any of the national classes?

Anyway, I won't give anymore advice as it's obvious none will be taken nor is it wanted.

ps-give my regards to kenny herman and remember he likes to be referred to as screech.

igor@af
03-21-2005, 08:41 AM
You going to be in New York? Come by the Ford booth and introduce yourself if you're there on the press or preview days. I'll be there with our '05 Mustang show car. We're using it to help promote our racing.

C.

I will be sure to stop by. I expect to see a halo over your head.

I am also going to consider what the likes of Michael Krumm (JGTC), Divina Galica (F1), and Stu Hayner (you know him), had to say to me at Sebring.

And they told you... what?

Too much to rehush - drastically contrasting information from what you've been posting here.
They were all very pleasant to be around as well.

tyndago
03-21-2005, 09:32 AM
I know it's not, but it's a quality track close to you with faster drivers than you for which you can get experience on. It also has national races for meeting requirements. It's not as if you can have you have a crew roaming the country going to different tracks each week...

I really dont know if the Skyline would be eligible in any kind of local racing. If there are rental rides available for events,and it will work in the schedule then we will do the best to get Igor there and in a car. We have looked into it already. If there are open track events at Willow or Buttonwillow and it fits, we will be there with the car testing.

As far as competing in the Skyline right now, we are probably not ready to go wheel to wheel. Couple more schools, couple more test days, then we will see.



Well, they're wrong. With 12 months left you need saloon-car experience. I can't stress how different karts drive, how different the lines are, how different the passing is, etc.

Stu Hayner is wrong ? Is there really a wrong and a right ? We talked to lots of people. We told them what we were doing, and we asked for advice on what they recommended. Its the reason we spent a week at Sebring.

Anyway, I won't give anymore advice as it's obvious none will be taken nor is it wanted.
.

We discuss each piece of advice. Just because we are not going to follow the path you recommend does not mean we are doing it wrong. Also it does not mean we are doing it right.

We would much rather make friends than enemies. Next year at Sebring you can say "I told you so". Any advice is welcomed, however we are getting a lot of it and just sorting it all out takes a little time.

Tiger Racing
03-21-2005, 03:06 PM
I will be sure to stop by. I expect to see a halo over your head.

I'm not at all sure what that is supposed to mean. Should I be miffed or should I laugh at how far off you are?

Too much to rehush - drastically contrasting information from what you've been posting here.

Stu told you that a year of racing karts and running a few racing schools was plenty of experience to be highly competitive in pro racing? Out of curiousity, what exactly do you think I've been posting here?

They were all very pleasant to be around as well.

I could proabably count on one hand the number of pro racers that I've met that aren't great guys. The best are ones like Derek Bell, Brian Redman and Clay Regazzoni. Race winners and champions multiple times over who have nothing left to prove, but can still race circles around guys half their ages and enjoy doing it. Then there are guys like Phil McClure, Paul Brown and Randy Pobst. Really friendly, down to earth, decent people who will go out of their way to help you out any way they can off the track. And on the track? They will crush you like a bug. In the cleanest and nicest way possible, of course.

I really dont know if the Skyline would be eligible in any kind of local racing.

Of course it is. You can always find open classes in regional racing. National? I don't know, but it seems surprising that you don't either.

As far as competing in the Skyline right now, we are probably not ready to go wheel to wheel. Couple more schools, couple more test days, then we will see.

That seems logical.

Stu Hayner is wrong ?

Dunno. You haven't told us what he said yet.

We discuss each piece of advice.

A lot of people think that if you don't follow their advice that this means that you aren't listening at all. That's silly. Considering people's advice doesn't mean taking orders. Although, if you only follow the advice that goes with what you want to do anyway, then you could be doing yourself a disservice.

C.

#98
03-21-2005, 06:11 PM
I really dont know if the Skyline would be eligible in any kind of local racing. If there are rental rides available for events,and it will work in the schedule then we will do the best to get Igor there and in a car. We have looked into it already. If there are open track events at Willow or Buttonwillow and it fits, we will be there with the car testing.

Stu Hayner is wrong ? Is there really a wrong and a right ? We talked to lots of people. We told them what we were doing, and we asked for advice on what they recommended. Its the reason we spent a week at Sebring.


There's always an open class at a regional. Usually they put you in an obscure class w/no one or a class where your car will be uncompetitive.

specmiatas cost about 1,000 to rent...many places rent them

Wrong.

BigTDawg
03-23-2005, 12:58 PM
i just read all of this and to me it seems like you guys gave you advice then went on what other ppl have said not what igor or anyone on his team have said they have made no predicitons on how they will do and they havnt said that the way they are doing is the smartest way. maybe he doesnt fully understand what it takes but sometimes you have to find out the hard way

maybe i'll see some of you at the ny show if i can find someone to go with

and best of luck to you igor i say prove them wrong and all you have to do to prove them wrong is do well

blackcomet
03-24-2005, 05:15 AM
Finally someone that I kind of agree with lol..I myself will not make any predictions on how well they do but will just say that hopefully during their many hours of practice, they will be able to figure out more about the cars personality and ways to make it better. I think with the introduction of new rules and cars, it will be a very interresting season. I mean look at F1 this year, new cars, new rules and changing teh drivers around, now their are so many people who have chances of winning and now its not always sure that Michael Schumacher will win like last year. I hope most of you got my point and I wish the best of luck to Igor and the rest of his team!

flylwsi
03-25-2005, 12:32 PM
just a note...
back on page 3 or 4 or so...

igor stated DIRECTLY that he is going to be competing in some touring car racing as well as karting in the next year.

it was in his statement about driver development...

you might want to go back and read it.
you keep telling him to get into saloons/sedans whatever.

and he said he was going to, which is why they're not racing until 2006.

there's quite a few ruffled feathers from guys with experience...

lots of put downs of a person they have no idea about.

no one in the world challenge really knew paul mumford either, and if he hadn't died, he'd have really opened peoples eyes.

hell, in what, 3 races, as an unknown, he did just that.

Layla's Keeper
03-25-2005, 10:25 PM
Except Paul Mumford was very well known to Bobby Archer, Bob Woodhouse, and other veterans of the Viper Racing League and the Viper was a proven car in both Mumford's hands and the Speed World Challenge.

I'm not particularly concerned with Igor's competency as a driver because there's always room for growth with any driver. What I am concerned about is the Skyline GTR. I don't care what whizbang alpha-numeric code Nissan sticks on the tail end (GTR V-Spec II Nur, for example) the car is still neither Viper, nor Vette, nor 911 and remains unproven in balanced, unbiased production road racing against these cars.

In fact, the only situation I can think of when an R34 GTR has met a Dodge Viper in a competition setting is the Nurburgring classic and in that event the Falken Skyline is usually squaring off against ex-Oreca cars. Hardly a fair fight.

Tiger Racing
03-26-2005, 02:18 AM
you might want to go back and read it.
you keep telling him to get into saloons/sedans whatever.

To whom are you speaking?

there's quite a few ruffled feathers from guys with experience...

Again, you are rather vague. What do you see as indicating ruffled feathers?

lots of put downs of a person they have no idea about.

It would really help if you quoted. I don't have any idea what you have found insulting in people suggesting that beginning a racing career in the most competitive professional series in NA may not be the best plan.

no one in the world challenge really knew paul mumford either

Um... no. Mumford was well known to road racers, Viper drivers especially. He was also a very successful motorcycle racer. I had never met the guy or seen him drive, but even I had heard of him before he came to World Challenge. You picked a really bad example. PMUM gets all kinds of credit for being the amateur and privateer who kicked professional, factory backed butt. Lots of people think that he was an inexperienced, newbie to racing who trundled into town in an open trailer with nothing but a stock car and Nomex underwear. Not quite. His racing effort was very well funded and he had a LOT of experience under his belt in that Viper before he made his way to Laguna Seca for that first pro race. Comparing someone who self-admittedly has NEVER turned a wheel on track in competition to a man who kicked butt in Viper competition for quite some time before venturing into deep waters is ill-conceived at best.

C.

flylwsi
03-26-2005, 12:16 PM
no real need to quote anyone, people can read for themselves that there are questions about igor's skill level as he is a rookie.

i know who pmum was, not exactly a bad example, but it's the same idea.
a relatively "unknown" who hasn't run against any of the "big names" comes in and shakes shit up.

octagon (layla's keeper)
you're worried about the skills of the skyline.
the numbers and names at the end of the name of the car do a lot of describing of what it is, and why it's above and beyond the normal gt-r... do some research (it's been done in this thread for you already)

also, the skylines have run against the vipers in the jgtc, though that's another bad example, b/c those are, wait, no... not at all unlike running in speed gt, because the cars are uber modified in both cases, but gt500 has a 500hp limit on the cars...

but i digress...

at any rate, i realize that there's alot of "open your eyes, you're going to get squashed" sentiment.
and i think that's to be expected.

and there's alot of "i'll help you out" as well...

just interesting that people are losing races with this car in their minds, with a car/driver combo they know nothing about...

the cts-v was the same way. no one knew what was going to happen with a brand new car. and it demolished the competition in the first race.

it could happen again, stranger things have.

Layla's Keeper
03-26-2005, 01:43 PM
Actually, fly, people were expecting the Caddy CTS-V's to be ultra competitive from the get go because they were being built and modified by Pratt & Miller - the same GM works team that builds the ALMS Corvettes.

The SCCA didn't believe the CTS-V would be as competitive a platform as the Corvettes already in the series, and so they (rather naively) allowed Pratt & Miller a ridiculous amount of modification (take a look at the Caddy VTS sheet if you don't believe this). One only needs to look at the side the racing Caddy versus the roadgoing version to see just how much Pratt & Miller did.

http://www.fast-autos.net/cadillac/ctsv4.jpg

versus

http://www.fast-autos.net/cadillac/ctsvr17.jpg

Add to that the best road racing driver lineup money can buy (Max Angelelli, Mad Max Papis, Ron Fellows, Andy Pilgrim, John Heinricy) and have Cadillac footing the bill on all fronts and damn straight you'll have an out of the box win.

And do you recall that after Sebring the SCCA imposed heavy restrictions on the Cadillac once they found out just how far Pratt & Miller pushed the envelope? Here's a taste of what they did.

- rearward weight bias shift, no more than 49% allowed (revised to 48% after Mid-Ohio)
- +200 to base weight (minimum weight now 3200lbs)
- sequential gearbox disallowed even at +100 penalty, car must run Tremec syncromesh gearbox
- 63.6mm air inlet restrictor, down from 80.5mm
- rev limiter reset from 7900rpm to 7000rpm.
- P&M intake manifold developed for Sebring now only allowable intake manifold (Pratt & Miller were developing manifolds with different trumpet lengths for different races)

This is what the SCCA did just one week after the season opener at Sebring. Caddy could afford to work through these setbacks, though, and Ron Fellows won for Caddy later in the season at Mosport.

However, this is the Cadillac factory team. AF does not have their resources, we don't have their driver staff (ferchrissakes man, Mad Max Papis and Ron Fellows?!?!) we certainly don't have their political clout, and the SCCA certainly is not going to be as kind and merciful to us as they were to Cadillac.

GT500 is entirely different from Speed World Challenge. JGTC allows for total reconstruction of chassis, brand new engine packages, sequential gearboxes, carbon fiber monocoques, and the list goes on and on. Speed World Challenge demands different things of different cars depending on how competitive they are.

Cars like the Viper Competition Coupe have to run a spec sealed engine from Dodge with factory stock exhaust manifolds.

Cars like the Volvo S60R are allowed to re-engineer their AWD systems and are allowed wider bodies to compete with the Viper.

If one allowed modification proves to allow a car too much success, it's revised or taken away (as with the Caddy's dog engagement sequential, or the fact that the Champion Audi RS6's were restricted down from 10.3lbs of boost to 8.1lbs after Mid-Ohio).

Speed World Challenge is balanced production car racing. It's the pinnacle of production based racing in America. To assume that the sanctioning body (especially the SCCA) allows just anybody and just any car to waltz in and steal the show is naive. And just in case the SCCA does midjudge a car (as they did with the Cadillac) be prepared for the friggin' Sword of Damocles to fall down hard.

Tiger Racing
03-27-2005, 11:14 PM
no real need to quote anyone, people can read for themselves that there are questions about igor's skill level as he is a rookie.

The reason you need to quote is that you claimed that there were ruffled feathers and lots of put downs. I want to know who you are talking about.

i know who pmum was, not exactly a bad example, but it's the same idea.
a relatively "unknown" who hasn't run against any of the "big names" comes in and shakes shit up.

He is a very bad example because there is no comparison between Igor and PMUM. Igor has zero experience racing in this car or any other. PMUM had years worth of experience on bikes and in Vipers. You keep claiming he was unknown but that is flat out wrong. He was very well known to road racers around the country, especially Viper drivers. He was only a newcomer to the series, not to racing in general.

at any rate, i realize that there's alot of "open your eyes, you're going to get squashed" sentiment.
and i think that's to be expected.

I've never said that. I've asked why they are choosing to enter the most competitive road racing series in the US as their first taste of motorsport. It sounds like bad planning, so I'm asking what the rationale is.

just interesting that people are losing races with this car in their minds, with a car/driver combo they know nothing about...

I haven't said much about the car, but we do know that the driver isn't just an amateur, he's got zero experience. How do you not see that as significant?

the cts-v was the same way. no one knew what was going to happen with a brand new car. and it demolished the competition in the first race.

You really need to get your facts straight. I am a competitor in World Challenge. I was heavily involved in the discussion leading up to Cadillac's first race at Sebring last season. EVERYONE, but SCCA seemed to know that the CTS-V was going to kick butt. It was no surprise whatsoever, especially (as noted by another poster) since it was driven by some of the greatest road racers in competition today. I've had the privilege of driving against many of the best, but Andy Pilgrim and Max Angelelli can cut thru the field like a hot knife thru butter. I've never seen anyone smoother.

Don't make it sound like anyone is attacking Igor when they aren't. If you really believe it's happening, then quote someone directly. Otherwise, don't stir the pot.

C.

jayxer
03-28-2005, 10:13 PM
As much experience as you, #98, and you, C., might have, I am also going to consider what the likes of Michael Krumm (JGTC), Divina Galica (F1), and Stu Hayner (you know him), had to say to me at Sebring. Not to mention Jorge Koechlin, Roland Linder, and Jim Hall....

I appreciate everything that anyone takes the time to input, as the more I know the better. So thank you all!


Divina Galica..... what a wonderful woman. I have worked with her a lot when I was with the Skip Barber organization. She is a credit to racing drivers everywhere.

Im new to this forum, and was surprised to read your announcement on entering the SPEED GT series in 2006. With that said, I wont knock your campaign as I wish you all the luck, however I do agree with a lot of the comments stated already. Having been in the business of racing myself, its not an easy task (which you already know im sure). The SPEED GT ranks are EXTREMELY competitive. Having guys with the names like Bell, Archer, McClure, Reese, Gigliotti, Angilleli, Papis, Henzler....etc etc etc. These guys all have pages written about them in sports car racing. Many have competed and won in the 24 Hours of LeMans. Jumping into this category is not something suggested for a rookie team. Competing against the likes of factory efforts by Porsche, Dodge, GM, Pratt & Miller, Audi (who will be back in 06 with the new S4) is going to be a tough road. All I have to say is use your better judgement...... and im not saying dont compete, im just saying dont get in over your head. Not only to save from humiliation, but for the sake of the safety of you, and every other driver that will be on track at the same time. Good luck, and god speed.

BigTDawg
03-29-2005, 04:52 PM
tiger you say hes got zero experience. right now he does but when he starts he will have some and no matter how you look at that some is better then none. dont take this the wrong way casue you know a hell of alot more about this then i do.
i do agree with most of things you guys have said it defintly isnt the best plan but thats the one he has choosen so we might as well support him in his decsion.

some of the things you more experienced guys have said may have sounded a little negative but damn flywsi something tells me igor and whoever else is reading this knows its not ment to be negative

cable43
03-30-2005, 05:43 AM
:eek:

R.S. Vlady
03-30-2005, 11:17 AM
tiger you say hes got zero experience. right now he does but when he starts he will have some and no matter how you look at that some is better then none.

to add, even now Igor has over a year of experience in amateur racing( which includes best times in time trials in his class with NASA) and training in three different racing schools. He has both substantial open wheel experience as well as racing supercharged 350Z and Mustang Cobra's. This year is going to be much more rigorous, as you know; April alone will include both carts and formula Dodge competitions.

And don't forget, Grand Tourismo 1 - 4 !! :naughty:

Tiger Racing
03-30-2005, 04:50 PM
even now Igor has over a year of experience in amateur racing( which includes best times in time trials in his class with NASA)

So why on Gaia's Green Earth didn't anyone mention this earlier? Would I have kept repeating that Igor has zero experience if someone had? Fer pity's sake, all we know is what is posted here. It's not much experience, but at least he's turned a wheel in anger against competition.

Good luck then.

C.

Tiger Racing
03-30-2005, 06:10 PM
...

Super13
03-31-2005, 09:39 AM
where does one get those wheels / tires? (1 lug)

tyndago
03-31-2005, 10:19 AM
where does one get those wheels / tires? (1 lug)

This car does not have center lock wheels.It has normal lug nuts.

Centerlocks are normally race only items. Lots of companies have them, its just not something you can buy though a normal wheel channel.

HONDAPITSTOPCOM
03-31-2005, 12:26 PM
Congrats on the Skyline! That car makes me drool!

Just curious is the ATTESA E-TS Pro 4 wheel drive system an AWD system?
Did the Skyline come AWD factory?
If not how was the AWD system fit?

Man I wish Honda would make a car like that one!

BigTDawg
03-31-2005, 05:25 PM
tiger if that info was presented sooner this thread would only be 6 pages long what fun is 6 pages

tyndago
03-31-2005, 06:39 PM
Congrats on the Skyline! That car makes me drool!

Just curious is the ATTESA E-TS Pro 4 wheel drive system an AWD system?
Did the Skyline come AWD factory?
If not how was the AWD system fit?

Man I wish Honda would make a car like that one!

ATTESA is the Nissan name for the all wheel drive system. Its unique in the way it controls torque split between the front and rear wheels.

The 1989 up Skyline GT-R came factory with all wheel drive. there are versions of the Skyline that were not all wheel drive. There are older Skyline GT-R's that are rear wheel drive.

Honda has a fairly unique new all wheel drive system..... look at the new Acura RL.

Layla's Keeper
03-31-2005, 11:23 PM
Centerlocks are normally race only items. Lots of companies have them, its just not something you can buy though a normal wheel channel.

Tell me about it. I own a 1970 MGB GT with the wire wheels and I hate having to preserve the one set of inner tubes I have for the tires (MGB 14in wire wheels don't have beads to seal the tire).

ProperMG.com so far has the only reasonably priced road alternative, and at $1,300 for the set, that's still not exactly chump change.

http://www.propermg.com/wheels/gbw005kb_350_opto.gif

R.S. Vlady
04-01-2005, 01:08 AM
So why on Gaia's Green Earth didn't anyone mention this earlier? Would I have kept repeating that Igor has zero experience if someone had? Fer pity's sake, all we know is what is posted here.
C.

Tigerr,
Yeah, the info is kind of here and there. Some of the staff about amateur racing with NASA can be found on project vehicle page for the retired 350Z.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/350z/

Additional info about his past racing is also on automotivearticles, see one in motorsports coverage on Bondurant, for example.

http://www.automotivearticles.com/bondurant_racing_school.shtml

http://www.automotivearticles.com/jim_hall_kart_racing_school.shtml

P.S., it's kind of ironic: Nissan retires R34 in favor of 350Z while we here retire a brand new Z for a GTR.

tyndago
04-01-2005, 11:57 AM
Tell me about it. I own a 1970 MGB GT with the wire wheels and I hate having to preserve the one set of inner tubes I have for the tires (MGB 14in wire wheels don't have beads to seal the tire).


Are those actual center lock hubs or are they adaptors with center locks. I dont know much about MG's.

Wire wheel companies make center lock adaptors. They use a bolt on hub and then the wheel is held on with a single lug.

We also have a set of Interspeed centerlock wheels for a GT-R that use a bolt on hub. Not the most desireable way to do centerlocks.

http://rbmotoring.com/albums/album04/aat.jpg

HONDAPITSTOPCOM
04-01-2005, 01:23 PM
ATTESA is the Nissan name for the all wheel drive system. Its unique in the way it controls torque split between the front and rear wheels.

The 1989 up Skyline GT-R came factory with all wheel drive. there are versions of the Skyline that were not all wheel drive. There are older Skyline GT-R's that are rear wheel drive.

Honda has a fairly unique new all wheel drive system..... look at the new Acura RL.

Thank you for that info. I'm not up on Skyline history since in the US it's harder than heck and an arm and a leg to buy one.

I did check out the new 2005 Acura RL. Man that's a sweet car but it's more of an executives sports sedan at $50K USD and more luxurious than I need ;o) Now if Honda would make a two door version of the 2005 RL and throw some twin turbos on it and strip all the NAV out and luxury items it might have a contender on it's hands for autocross. Of course they have the NSX but too much money for me. I'm thinking more of a something Honda should put out to compete with the WRX Sti's in either a 2 and or 4 door sports awd sedan at a price point of $30 to $40K USD.

Layla's Keeper
04-01-2005, 06:02 PM
Tyndago, they're honest to god centre-lock wheels. While there are bolt on kits to convert four lug MG's to wire wheel, the actual wire wheel cars use an entirely different hub assembly.

http://www.mossmotors.com/Graphics/Products/Schematics/MGB-045.gif

This is the parts schematic for an MGB front suspension from Moss Motors' site. Part #68 is the splined hub for a wire wheel/centre lock car. Part #64 is a regular four lug hub.

tyndago
04-01-2005, 10:12 PM
Thank you for that info. I'm not up on Skyline history since in the US it's harder than heck and an arm and a leg to buy one.

I've been selling them in the US since 1999. Not that many are in the US. Even the least expensive ones weren't that inexpensive. Getting them legal for the US wasn't that easy though...

I did check out the new 2005 Acura RL. Man that's a sweet car but it's more of an executives sports sedan at $50K USD and more luxurious than I need ;o) Now if Honda would make a two door version of the 2005 RL and throw some twin turbos on it and strip a 2 and or 4 door sports awd sedan at a price point of $30 to $40K USD.

The R34 was about $45k US when sold new in Japan. So to some people maybe an equivalent. The GTR is not an STI or Evo. Different kind of, different class of car.

Back to Honda, recently - not too sure the direction they are going. Toyota seems to be holding all the right cards there. Honda was doing well with the youth market, but maybe only by default.

The problem would be how many cars would they sell at $30-$40k. Mitsubishi is only selling about 5000 Evos a year. Subaru sells a lot of WRX's but the pricepoint is lower. I dont know STI sales numbers.

It always has to make sense to make dollars , and make dollars to make sense.

HONDAPITSTOPCOM
04-02-2005, 08:47 AM
I've been selling them in the US since 1999. Not that many are in the US. Even the least expensive ones weren't that inexpensive. Getting them legal for the US wasn't that easy though...

The R34 was about $45k US when sold new in Japan. So to some people maybe an equivalent. The GTR is not an STI or Evo. Different kind of, different class of car.

Back to Honda, recently - not too sure the direction they are going. Toyota seems to be holding all the right cards there. Honda was doing well with the youth market, but maybe only by default.

The problem would be how many cars would they sell at $30-$40k. Mitsubishi is only selling about 5000 Evos a year. Subaru sells a lot of WRX's but the pricepoint is lower. I dont know STI sales numbers.

It always has to make sense to make dollars , and make dollars to make sense.

I see thanks for the info.

I agree about the manufacturers wanting to make the most dollars. Still there's that "engineering" respect factor that some manufacturers like to achieve. Honda's pretty much achieved that with cars and engines that can easily last 500K miles and more with routine maintenance. However, Subaru and Mitsubishi seem to have achieved the "race engineering" niche with their AWD $30-40K USD cars. I see the 30's to 50's age bracket buying STI's more now because it's a 4 door during the week and then a viable choice for auto-x on the week-ends.

Also, I'm not sure if this is an indicator or not but the last Auto-x I went to here in Portland, OR I think there were about 11 cars competing for points in the SM class and out of that 11 cars 8 were WRX & STI's and 1 was an EVO8.

Z432
04-07-2005, 06:28 PM
I am a very loyal Nissan fan and have several Nissan cars in various states of tune. I have to say that I like the project car being a Nissan. But I really have to take on several issues surrounding this GT-R.

First;
*Quote: “but injecting that much capital into the 350Z would have been simply inappropriate and irresponsible, considering an opportunity of acquiring this GT-R arose”

I can understand the thinking behind that, but it proves that this project is not being done out of love and devotion to the Z-cars. Somehow I doubt this was about money; a GT-R is not cheap either. It’s about “marketing”, and what is more drooled over and has higher visibly than a GT-R? Winning with a GT-R would really set the program apart from everyone else (let’s face it, there are many racing Z-cars). It’s one thing to build a winning car, but a whole other thing to just buy a turnkey race car from of all people a Japanese Tuning operation. I would just have more respect for the 350Z, but I am not going to worry, there are plenty of privateers running the 350Z, so no problem there.

*Quote: “The uniqueness of the present situation cannot be overstated - this is the opportunity for the GT-R to shine in a series where not a single Japanese vehicle has recently succeeded and the manufacturers (namely Cadillac, Audi, and Volvo) dump countless millions of dollars into the development of their race program.”</I>

It’s easy to “make history” with enough money and an awesome car (that I suspect that there are not many classes, especially in the stogy SCCA, for a JDM car to enter into). Somehow I don’t really think this is a matter of the under-funded underdog with a car he built in a garage in his spare time and bumping off a works team.
And I know what you are going to say; “Well, it takes money to go racing, you know that”. Yes, I do know that; “the best way to make a fortune in racing, is to start with a large one”, but there is still a point here.

*Quote: “There is a large gap between the automotive enthusiast culture and the racing world, and one of our goals in this motorsport endeavor is to close this gap by the intoroduction of the Skyline GT-R, an icon and a legend, in racing, where it will shine more than at any car show.”

How will a car that has almost no relevance to the average enthusiast, shinning in a racing class that most people are not participating in, help close this “gap”?
The real deal is that it is a “icon and a legend” and is a high visibility car, that is perfect for sponsors like Automotive Forums. Racing at this level is either a business itself, or an extension of a business (for advertising, etc. Not that this is somehow “wrong”). I admit it, racing does sell well.

*Quote: "The entry of this extremely special car in the Speed World Challenge series will help leverage what Automotive Network accomplishes online, and help us make a non-Internet world connection,"

This would be the same thing as if Nissan itself was entering a “works team”; it sells good and services (i.e. all the other Nissan cars be association). And again, there is nothing wrong going out and playing with the big boys if you have the cash.



Again, I am not saying this is “wrong” or “bad”; I am just stating things the way I see them.

unbeatable3kgtvr4
04-17-2005, 11:22 AM
Congrats AF

4-THGENH24LUDE
04-27-2005, 12:25 PM
I read up until two posts into page 6, while doing this I just kept getting upset. I find it honorable and couragous that you guys are gonna try and get in there and win, I find it sad and kinda pissy that quite a few of these people here are being pestemistic [Insert most offending name here]. I think you guys should get as uch practice possible and do your damnest to keep up and beat the competition. Congratulations on the new Skyline, i'm sad to see the Z go. Best of luck to you in the '06 season! http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/2cents.gif

thecackster
05-02-2005, 11:32 AM
You guys should think about entering it in the Silver State Classic....It's the world's fastest road race. Web Site (www.silverstateclassic.com)

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