lets be real (swap)

keeping all things into consideration what do you guys think....

what is the most reasonable swap to do.

D's
odviosly i would not want to put another one of these in my car if i were to take the time to do this. (still good engine though)

H22
for many 6th gen owners an H22 is our of the question. lose of power stering, A/C, and a posible new suspention set up all adds up and can become a headach.

K20
these seem to be the Hot Stuff now. they are able to make great power but will empty your wallet quick. they normaly run about $5,000. with that said this is probably out of the question.

B16A
these seem to be good engines that can produce moderate power, but once agian if i want to take the time to do this I'd rather pay a thousand or so more $ to get a stronger engine.

B16B & B18C5
this is realistically the type of power i am looking for but there power come with a great price. for more than $5,000 i would rather go with the newer K20. I have seen some really good deals on ebay for these things though.

these engine all have there pros and cons, but is there a median of power and price. I am looking for mid 14's on a quarter mile, nothing to amazing. if i do swap it, i may turbo it in about a year or so. time and $ pending.
my existing engine is the d16y8 w/111,300 miles on it. I have also looked at building it up and turboing it and making it a SOHC freak.
I have been checking on all aspects of my choices for well over a year now and hope to get some real power to the ground in about 7 months.
anyone with first hand experiance please give some advice.

14's...id Go B18c1, You'll Prolly Get High To Mid 14's With Some Bolt Ons And Some Cams...or Just Do What I Did Cause Im 2 Lazy To Do A Swap And Build A 14sec Sohc...with Just About As Much Money As A Gsr Swap Alone...no Labor...

I'd say b18c.

I have done a little more looking at the k engines.
i have found some that are not that expensive, and i hear you can turbo the shit out of them with stock internals.
anyone see a k engine in a 6th gen civic yet

Yeah....no P/s...and Alot Of Bs...some Ppl Got P/s...forgot Waht They Did Though

search.

anyone see a k engine in a 6th gen civic yet
June '04 issue of Sport Compact Car has a 455whp turbo'd one in it.
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0407scc_hassportcivic/

June '04 issue of Sport Compact Car has a 455whp turbo'd one in it.
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0407scc_hassportcivic/

that was a nice set up.
now that i have though about it a k enige may be the way to go.
this has the new technology that will be in most hondas for a long time. there for parts should be easier to get. the only down side is at the moment they are a little expencive, but this may change soon.

That SCC issue had a "how to" for swapping in a K into a 96-00...it wasn't easy when compared to a b-series, mostly due to the wiring...but obviously it can be done...so check out that how-to before you get into it to make sure you know what you are getting into...of course that how-to is bacially by hasport...

Also, that Hasport 455whp K-series 96 HB blew the motor after one pass down the track...if I recall mostly due to the fact they didn't install a dry slump oil system so during the skip-pad test the car oil slmuped to one side and it ran dry and strave the motor...and then it pretty much died soon thereafter...no oil + 455whp = a bad thing!!! LOL...anyways, try and find that how-to...it's be a lot more helpful to you than just the article taking about what the car has...it's from the same issue...I have the article here @ home but that doesn't help us here on the web...lol.

If you do it post up pics someday when your done...not many people go the K-series route so it'd be neat to see pics of it if you ever go that route.

Originally posted on another forum.......

This is an article I found in the July 2004 issue of Sport Compact Car. (If you don't like the magazine, keep it out of this thread. This thread is not meant for battles on which magazines suck or not.) This article refers to the cover car, a Milano Red 1996 Civic hatch with a K20 swap in it. There is also a corresponding article on the car called, The RedDevil. I might post that up later and then link to it. Pics will follow from the article once I scan them.

Hybrid How-To

BY JARED HOLSTEIN
PHOTOGRAPHY BY: TIM KELLY KEVIN WING

Hybrid No. 15:
K-series engines into the EK (1996-2000) Civic's chassis


WHAT AND WHY

Face it, the D-series in you Civic is far from anything special. It's a fuel economy engine. If you want more power, it's forced induction or a swap. Installing a B-series swap is easy, but Honda hasn't made a B-series since model year 2001. Supply is shrinking and they're getting pricey.

The future of Honda engines is the new K-series, under the hood of the Accord, Element, CR-V, TSX, and RSX. Figure more than 400,000 of them are sold each year. They're already in junkyards and the minimum power is 160. Plus, the 2.0-liter version has lots more torque than a B-series swap and the 2.4 even more still.

Then EK Civic is the last generation with a double wishbone front suspension instead of cheap MacPherson struts liek that 2001-and-up models, and the handling potential of the EK models is well beyond that of the newer cars. It's also lighter and has lots of non-engine-related performance parts and bling-bling parts available.


Swap Basics
CHASSIS: 1996-TO-2000 HONDA CIVIC, SIXTH GENERATION, ALL MODELS
They all came with D-series engines (except the Si) so they all have the same mount locations. The fastest units, post-
swap, are the lightest, which are hatchbacks. The CX has a factory-listed weight of just 2,250 pounds. But even if
you have a plump EX sedan, this swap works.

ENGINE: K20 OR K24
The Hasport kits work with either size engineand with all the combinations like a K24 from and Accord on the bottom
end with a K20A2 head from an RSX Type-S. The K24 motors have EGR built into the head (except the CR-V), and the
K24A2 from the TSX has a different ECU and harness. Other than those anomalies, they're all the same electronically and
emissions-wise.

CONCERNS
If you've done a Honda hybrid swap, this is no tougher. Three mount points, three new custom mounts. You need a custom
exhaust and driveshafts, but Hasport is currently supplying the necessary parts. The wiring is very tricky, however.
Plan four to five hours on wires alone if you go it yourself, or just buy the Hasport sub-harnesses.
Emissions may require a lot of work, depending on your state's rules. The 1999-to-2000 cars generally have all the sensors
the K ECU is looking for, but other years/models may require parts from newer years/models of Civics to be fully
emissions compliant.


PICKING THE CHASSIS

For starters, Hasport, one of the best-known names for Honda swap parts and engine mounts, has engineered the K-series swap into the 1996-to-2000 Civic chassis. Any of the Civics (except a Civic that has a Contnuously Variable Transmission, CVT) made in these years can accept a K-series engine. A Civic with an auto tranny will work too, but the kit is made to drop in a manual transmission K-engine. You'll have to add the clutch pedal yourself.

The leanest, meanest car for speed would be the 1996-to-1997 CX hatchback. It has the lowest weight, least emissions control, a relatively rigid body (since it has no moonroof), and is still relatively available. Next would be a coupe, like an HX, but even a 2000 sedan with it's 300 extra pounds will suddenly wake up, especially if you drop in a torquey K24.

PICKING THE ENGINE

There are several versions of the K-series. Any of them will fit, but some are better than others. The K20A2 powers the RSX Type-S. It's the best of the U.S. engines, mainly because it has the real VTEC, with high- and low-rpm lobes for both intake and exhaust valves, as opposed to the sissy eco-version that only acts on the intake cams and has no high-rpm lobes. The A2 also packs the highest compression, is built to withstand higher revs and comes bolted to a six-speed.

Unless it's cheap, a K20A3 engine from a Civic Si or base RSX is probably one to skip. You can beat it with a B20 VTEC and save the trouble of the wiring harness. It'll go in just like the K20A2 shown here, but unless being different means more to you than being better, why bother?

The K24s from the Accord Element and CR-V are all basically the same, bt different intakes and emissions components can complicate things. the Accord and Elements have the most emissions control stuff. The CR-V is called a "light-trc" by the EPA and will have less crap to hook up, notably EGR. All California cars will have more emissions crap. Consider a K24 for a swap because it will have great torque, responds well to turbocharging and paves the way to a future upgrade with an RSX Type-S or TSX head.

That leaves the K24A2 from the TSX or the JDM ITR engine, called simply the K20A. The JDM K20A is the best OEM version there is, with 20 more factory hp and a limited slip. The TSX us so new you likely won't see one in a yard for some time. The TSX also uses an electronic throttle that could cause other problems. But either of these engines follows the same installation as laid out here.


Parts Table
There are some things that must be custom if you do this swap. Hasport
sells nearly all of them. Some other parts are from Honda but are not original
to the EK.
CUSTOM PARTS
Engine mounts
Driveshafts. No OEM units work exactly
Wiring harness
Exhaust header
A/C hoses (optional)
Air intake (aftermarket units are easliy modified)
Fuel pressure regulator
Metal clutch tubing from master cylinder to rubber tubing on K trans
HONDA PARTS NOT FROM YOUR CAR
2002-and-up Civic Si throttle cable
1990-1997 Accord shifter box or RSX shifter box
1994-2001 GS-R radiator hoses
2002-and-up Civic Si idler pulley (goes where power steering pump was)


PICKING THE TRANSMISSION

If you're polling the yards for complete swaps, you may not have a choice, but there are some diamonds out there. The best of them would be the six-speed from the RSX Type-S, Japanese Type-R or TSX. Either is good, with the TSX being geared for the torque of 2.4-liters and the Type-S and Type-R geared for high-revving powerbands.

It's all about teh other trannies that present you with choices. There are no CR-V two-wheel-drive manuals, but the Element has some short (high numerically) gears. It might make for a nice, all-motor gearbox. Next is the Civic Si. Nearly and exact match for the RSX, it has lower first and second gears, but a higher final drive. The Accord tranny is about fuel economy. It's the easy choice for turbo application though, where short gears just mean wheelspin. See the transmission ratios table for all the details. Gears and final drives of all teh five-speed boxes are interchangeable, as are the six-speeds. But you can't swap parts between five-speeds and six-speeds.


K-series gear ratios
Accord TSX RSX-S RSX Element Civic Si
1st 3.267:2 3.267:1 3.267:1 3.267:1 3.533:1 3.062:1
2nd 1.769:1 1.88:1 2.130:1 1.880:1 2.042:1 1.769:1
3rd 1.147:1 1.355:1 1.517:1 1.212:1 1.355:1 1.212:1
4th 0.872:1 1.028:1 1.147:1 0.921:1 1.028:1 0.921:1
5th 0.659:1 0.825:1 0.921:1 0.738:1 0.825:1 0.738:1
6th 0.659:1 0.738:1
Final Drive 4.389:1 4.700:1 4.389:1 4.389:1 4.765:1 4.764:1


ENGINE REMOVAL AND PREP WORK

This is kinda old hat by now. The D-series engines that orginally came with these cars are tiny little guys that come out easily. A lift makes things easier since Honda motors comoe out the best from the bottom.

When you're buying your K motor, make sure to get everything attached to the engine, including the engine wire harness and the engine charging harness (battery cable and alternator wires), since it's a separate piece on K-engines. The batteries are different places in the K-powered cars and you're going to need its charging and power distribution harness for the EK.

The other must-haves are the ECU, an original key and the transponder from the steering column. Since 2000, Honda has built all it's cars with a coded key and transponder system as an anti-theft device. ECUs are matched to keys and can't be reprogrammed without a lot of documentation and an understanding dealer.

COOLING SYSTEM

This one is a bit of a bugger. Our EK uses an aftermarket radiator moade for an RSX (you can use the stock RSX unit as well). The stock lower mounts have to be cut off and mounted lower down, but it's very effective and uses stock RSX hoses. The old EK radiator's fan switch and temp sensor had to be moved when we did this as well (and are still needed if you use your EK radiator).

This setup means no AC/ without the RSX condensor. Another option, if you want A/C, is to make the EK radiator and the A/C condensor switch places (they sit side-by-side, not one in front of the other like most cars). In the stock location, the EK radiator's upper outlet hits the K-series intae manifold. For hoses you can use 1994-to-2001 GS-R upper and lower hoses. the lower hose will require some creative trimming to fit properly.

Killa_CRX, thank you!!! That was the article I I told exman98 to check out in my above post ...you've saved me the considerable time of having to scan or re-type the entire article to post it if I couldn't find an online link. :smile:

Killa_CRX, thank you!!! That was the article I I told exman98 to check out in my above post ...you've saved me the considerable time of having to scan or re-type the entire article to post it if I couldn't find an online link. :smile:


No problem :bigthumb:

I used to think about doing a K20 swap, but then I started thinking I'd do something a little more simple like an LS swap w/LS transmission... really cause of rising gas prices (which will concern me until I'm through with college and working for a few years), and because you can pick up LS engines and transmissions for a dime a dozen (so to speak).

Of course, then I think I might try the other extreme and convert to RWD and use the S2000 F20C.... but that's a pipe dream for the far off future :iceslolan

GSR or B16 whatever is cheaper and then build up for a turbo application. Or build up your D series for a turbo and save some money on the swap.

No problem :bigthumb:

I used to think about doing a K20 swap, but then I started thinking I'd do something a little more simple like an LS swap w/LS transmission... really cause of rising gas prices (which will concern me until I'm through with college and working for a few years), and because you can pick up LS engines and transmissions for a dime a dozen (so to speak).

Of course, then I think I might try the other extreme and convert to RWD and use the S2000 F20C.... but that's a pipe dream for the far off future :iceslolan

Gas prices are nuts...a very real concern I can understand. I remember back in 2001 when I could fill my civic up for around $10. Now? Hahaha...good luck with a finding a place tofill up gas for $10...especially good gas. Maybe like half a tank...sigh...it's a sad day when you have seriously to consider gas when doing a motor swap or adding a turbo...

You are right, the LS is the best priced motor of all of the b-series and K-series, plus as you said they are pretty easy to find. There's less of a difference now than there used to be...I remember when GSR and B16A and Type-R swaps where way more costwise than today...but the LS? It was always more affordable by comparison...and easy to find too...probably because everyone wanted Vtec and back then LS/Vtecs were not commen knowledge...I saw LS's creeping up in popularity for awhile...but it seems the new crop of young enthusiasts want vtec or something, cuz I am starting to see more LS haters out there...they can stay away from them all they want!!! It ment a cheaper swap before and it'll mean the same thing in the future!!! Plus I prefer the long gear ratios and of the LS for turbo apps..and it's a better base turbo motor stock...yes they can hate away, suggest B16A's and GSR and keep the LS prices down! :biggrin:

A RWD S2000 F20C conversion...hmm...pipe dream yes...but a might nice one!!!

ok i found a gret spot on hasport's web site.

http://www.hasport.com/Tech/Installs/EKK1.pdf

I have a 98 ex coupe (D16Y8). Is that the EK or what??? I thought that it was in the serial # on the car, but mine said EJ or something. if this is the case is this swap out of the question.
from what i have read on other sites they say all 96-98's are EK.

HELP!!!!

well SHIT!!!!!!
i am almost positive my chassi is the EJ. this is bad.

what is the diffrence any how

EK is what people refer to the '96-'00 civics, just like they refer to the '92-'95 as the EG (when it's really an EH). You're car is an EJ, so anything for the EJ or EK will work.

As civicspoon said...EK is just the commen chassis code reference name people give to refer to 96-00 civic...even though some are EK, some are EJ, etc..chassis code wise.

For 92-95 civics, people call them EG most of the time, even though EG hatchs never existed over here. EG has the hatch chassis code in Japan. Here in the US...in general, 92-95's are either EH or EJ...hatchs are EH, some Coupes are EJ, and most Sedans are EG...so there are EG chassis coded cars int he US...it's just only the sedans...

so anyways, when people say the swap is for an EK civic, it just means 96-00 civic. So yes...EK refers to your car...a 96-00 civic.

well knowing that makes my day better.
I just got a little confused on the wording, that is why i will probably pay some one to put this engine in.
realistically I would like to dave this done by about november so i have plenty of time to figure every thing out.
Thanks a lot

this is a quote from another forum that i skimed through.

" Wrong. Every 96-00 USDM civic is an EJ, except for the 99-00 Si which is an EM1. "EK" is the designation for the 96-00 SiR and Type R Civic Hatchbacks in Japan, so since everyone on this board thinks that since they have a 96-00 civic they have a JDM B-series powered hatchback. CIVIC USDM/JDM DESIGNATORS Chassis Motor Origin Year Vehicle 4G (1988-1991)
ED3 1.5L USDM All 4-door DX/LX
ED4 1.6L USDM All 4-door EX
ED6 1.5L USDM All 3-door Standard
ED7 1.6L USDM All 3-door Si
ED8 1.5L USDM All CRX standard / HF
ED9 1.6L USDM All CRX Si
EE2 1.5L USDM All Wagon
EE4 1.6L USDM All Wagon 4WD
EF1 D13B JDM All Civic ?
EF2 D15B JDM All Civic ? / CR-X
EF3 n/a JDM All Civic ? / CR-X Si (ZC DOHC)
EF6 D15B JDM All Civic ? / CR-X
EF7 n/a JDM All Civic ? / CR-X Si (ZC DOHC)
EF8 B16A JDM All Civic ? / CR-X
EF9 B16A JDM All Civic ? / CR-X 5G (1992-1995)
EG1 D15B JDM All 3-door/4-door/CR-X
EG1 D15B8 USDM 1993-1995 del Sol (8-valve)
EG1 D15B7 USDM 1993-1995 del Sol S (SOHC)
EG1 D15Z1 USDM 1993-1995 del Sol VTEC-E (SOHC)
EG2 B16A JDM All 3-door/4-door/CR-X
EG2 B16A3 USDM 1994-1995 del Sol VTEC (DOHC)
EG3 D13B JDM All 3-door/4-door
EG4 D15B JDM All 3-door/4-door/CR-X
EG5 n/a JDM All ? (ZC DOHC)
EG6 B16A JDM All 3-door/4-door/CR-X
EG7 D13B JDM All 3-door/4-door
EG8 D15B JDM All 3-door/4-door/CR-X
EG8 D15B7 USDM All 4-door DX/LX
EG9 B16A JDM All 3-door/4-door/del Sol CR-X
EH1 n/a JDM All 4-door/4WD (ZC DOHC)
EH2 1.5L USDM All 3-door CX/VX/DX
EH3 D16Z6 USDM 1993-1995 3-door Si
EH6 D16Z6 USDM 1993-1995 del Sol Si (SOHC)
EH9 D16Z6 USDM All 4-door EX
EJ1 D16Z6 USDM All 2-door EX
EJ2 1.5L USDM All 2-door DX 6G (1996-2000)
EG1 D15B8 USDM 1996-1997 del Sol (8-valve)
EG1 D15B7 USDM 1996-1997 del Sol S (SOHC)
EG1 D15Z1 USDM 1996-1997 del Sol VTEC-E (SOHC)
EG2 B16A2 USDM 1996-1997 del Sol VTEC (DOHC)
EH6 D16Z6 USDM 1993-1995 del Sol Si (SOHC)
EJ1 D16A JDM All 2-door
EJ3 n/a JDM All 2-door / 4WD EJ6 D16Y7 CANADA All 2-door DX/Si
EJ6 D16Y7 CANADA 2000 2-door DX-G
EJ6 D16Y7 CANADA 1996-1998 3-door CX/CX-G
EJ6 D16Y7 CANADA 1999-2000 3-door CX/DX
EJ6 D16Y7 CANADA 2000 3-door SE
EJ6 D16Y7 CANADA All 4-door LX/EX
EJ6 D16Y7 USDM All 3-door CX/DX
EJ6 D16Y7 USDM All 4-door DX/LX
EJ6 D16Y7 USDM 1999 4-door DX-V
EJ7 D16Y5 USDM All 2-door HX (VTEC-E)
EJ8 D16Y8 CANADA All 2-door EX
EJ8 D16Y8 USDM All 2-door/4-door EX
EK2 D13B JDM All 3-door/4-door
EK3 D15B JDM All 3-door/4-door
EK4 B16A JDM All 3-door/4-door
EK5 D16A JDM All 4-door 4WD/LEV
EK8 D16A JDM All 4-door 4WD/LEV
EK9 B16B JDM All 3-door Type-R EM1 B16A2 CANADA 1999-2000 2-door SiR
EM1 B16A2 USDM 1999-2000 2-door Si 7G (2001+)
EM2 1.7L USDM All 2-door DX/LX
ES1 1.7L USDM All 4-door DX/LX
??? 1.7L USDM All 2-door HX
EM2 D17A1 USDM All 2-door
ES2 D17A1 USDM All 4-door EX
EP3 K20A3 USDM 2002 3-door Si
??? K20C1 JDM All 3-door Type-R"


there for the EK and EJ would be completely diffrent. the EK egine mounts that i found from Hasport would not be the right kind.

there for the EK and EJ would be completely diffrent. the EK egine mounts that i found from Hasport would not be the right kind.
Naw, they are the same except that the EK is japanese and the EJ is US and Canadian. It's the same chassis except for the engines and being RHD. The motors still sits the exact same way, only the wiring harness is longer to go in on the other side. The Hasport mount kits will work fine in your car, it what they're made for (Hasport is an American company).

I am so gald that there are smart people on this forum^^

Smart people?? Geez man...both civicspoon and I said for the last half page that 96-00 civic where both EJ and Ek...we didn't lie...USDM civics have a EJ code and JDM ines an EK code...most people refer to them as EK...the JDM code...this is helpful too since there are a few EJ 92-95 civics...so it helps people understand whihc years they are refering too.

Basically....if someone says it's for an EG...it's for a 92-95 civic...regardless of what you chassis code is..>EG, EH, EJ...igf you have a 92-95 civic it will work.

EK refers to 96-00 civic...doesn't matter if you have a JDM EK chassis code or a USDM EJ code...IT IS ALL THE SAME...IT WILL ALL WORK...the hasport mounts are for a 96-00 civic, typically refered to as the JDM chassis code of "EK" for short. So you have a JDM civic...USDM civic...it doesn't matter...if it's a 96-00 it will work. You have a 96-00 civic...as we have been saying for the last half page...it will work.

You are thinking WAAYYY too much into it...trust us, we've been in the game for a very long time...much longer than we've been at these sites...it WILL work. If you still don't beilieve us, call hasport and ask.

It wasnt that i didnt believe you it is just that I am trying to look at evey aspect of this swap. the more dumb questions i ask know will hopfully lead to less dumb mistakes later.

THANK YOU !!!! :)

It wasnt that i didnt believe you it is just that I am trying to look at evey aspect of this swap. the more dumb questions i ask know will hopfully lead to less dumb mistakes later.

THANK YOU !!!! :)

Now that I can understand and respect...I'm glad we could help...feel free to ask more dumb questions anytime :biggrin:

D-Block!! That is the truest IMHO. If you can take a single cam and make that beast run a GSR, go for it. If you don't have outrageous goals, build and turbo that puppy. I hope to do that in the near future myself. I want t o do a ZEX cam and an Edelbrock turbo kit. I figure I could push over 200whp since they hit 176whp on a stock exhaust and nothing but the turbo for power. I just like the idea of building a FUN car on the cheap. You can always get plenty more power out of a B or K, but how far do you want to go really? Then again, suspension and brakes mean more to me than all out power, so maybe my thinking is different than most.

can the si tranny be used in the dx with no problem?