Good Samaritan Gun Use
Pages :
1 [2]
fredjacksonsan
03-22-2005, 03:10 PM
That will start a whole new argument....but an incredibly good question IMO. Have to think about it....
SnoopisTDI
03-22-2005, 04:46 PM
I haven't been following this whole thing that closely but I have a question for people who are for gun control. How do you feel about guns that are for sport? Should those type of guns also be banned?
The problem is most of the people who favor gun control don't know the difference. You could take the average hunting or target shooting rifle, take off the wood stock and put on a black plastic one and their knees would start knocking, trembling in fear of your new "assault rifle." They hear "semi automatic" and think of machine guns, but they don't realize the operation of these guns isn't much different from a 50 year old hunting rifle. A lot of them call military style rifles "high power," but a lot of them are the same or less than your typical hunting rifle. They call .50cal bolt action rifles "military sniper rifles," when in actuality, these rifles were designed in the public sector, for civilian sales, then later adopted by the military.
To sum it up, the majority of them don't know the difference between a sporting firearm and any other. And that includes a lot "pro-gun" people.
If they want to ban something, they should at least learn a little about what they want to ban. Go to their local shooting range and meet some of the folks there, see how things work, maybe take a few shots, etc. They can't expect anyone to take them seriously when they know nothing about the subject at hand.
Not to mention there's still that whole Bill of Rights thing, which makes no mention of "sporting," but does however mention the "security of a free state."
The problem is most of the people who favor gun control don't know the difference. You could take the average hunting or target shooting rifle, take off the wood stock and put on a black plastic one and their knees would start knocking, trembling in fear of your new "assault rifle." They hear "semi automatic" and think of machine guns, but they don't realize the operation of these guns isn't much different from a 50 year old hunting rifle. A lot of them call military style rifles "high power," but a lot of them are the same or less than your typical hunting rifle. They call .50cal bolt action rifles "military sniper rifles," when in actuality, these rifles were designed in the public sector, for civilian sales, then later adopted by the military.
To sum it up, the majority of them don't know the difference between a sporting firearm and any other. And that includes a lot "pro-gun" people.
If they want to ban something, they should at least learn a little about what they want to ban. Go to their local shooting range and meet some of the folks there, see how things work, maybe take a few shots, etc. They can't expect anyone to take them seriously when they know nothing about the subject at hand.
Not to mention there's still that whole Bill of Rights thing, which makes no mention of "sporting," but does however mention the "security of a free state."
Gotti
03-22-2005, 06:13 PM
Just seems a shame that it has to work that waty in just one country in thte civilised world.Criminals don't have such ready access access to firearms here, because,
A/firearms ownership is not seen as a neccesity here
B/those who do own firearms privately are obliged under law to secure them properly and transport them responsibly.
C/People who want to own flak jackets and AK47's are assumed to be of antisocial tendency.
I havent read the whole thread but I'd like to point out that your country is a minority, and that would never work in America. If they tried to take away peoples priviledges for gun ownership, honest citizens would lose their guns and criminals would keep theirs. You think criminals get their guns from gun stores?? They get them illegaly, so no laws would stop them from aquiring guns. Then honest people wouldnt have guns and criminals would, whats the point of that?
Like i said Australia is a minority, there are plenty of countries that have guns everywhere and are safe. Look at Switzerland, have you bin to switzerland? When you walk around you see people carrying guns everywhere, rifles on their back, pistols in their pants and its one of the safest countries in the world. How do you explain that?
Switzerland has a law that states everybody from the ages of 20-42 is required to own a gun and they even have local shooting competitions for 12-16 year olds.... so trying to take all the guns out of the country isnt the solution.
A/firearms ownership is not seen as a neccesity here
B/those who do own firearms privately are obliged under law to secure them properly and transport them responsibly.
C/People who want to own flak jackets and AK47's are assumed to be of antisocial tendency.
I havent read the whole thread but I'd like to point out that your country is a minority, and that would never work in America. If they tried to take away peoples priviledges for gun ownership, honest citizens would lose their guns and criminals would keep theirs. You think criminals get their guns from gun stores?? They get them illegaly, so no laws would stop them from aquiring guns. Then honest people wouldnt have guns and criminals would, whats the point of that?
Like i said Australia is a minority, there are plenty of countries that have guns everywhere and are safe. Look at Switzerland, have you bin to switzerland? When you walk around you see people carrying guns everywhere, rifles on their back, pistols in their pants and its one of the safest countries in the world. How do you explain that?
Switzerland has a law that states everybody from the ages of 20-42 is required to own a gun and they even have local shooting competitions for 12-16 year olds.... so trying to take all the guns out of the country isnt the solution.
Twitch1
03-22-2005, 08:06 PM
Fred- I hear ya guy! I just get tired of hearing the sheep shit about how perfect NZ is. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of websites that tell a whole different tale about NZ crime than our prevaricating pervert does. I'm tired of America bashing pukes from isolated nowhere locales ranting incoherently about Bush, US citizens and on and on. Take some time and read those rambling tirades and haranges that just go on and on never addressing any precise subject but go off instead attempting to verbally debase the US. How many times have jagoffs hijacked threads to thump their rhetorical bullshit bibles. Just look at the venom coming outta this guy. He's sick.
Snoopis- there's just a whole bunch of people that believe tin horn politicians passing some feel-good law is going to be the magic bullet on top of over 20,000 other firearms laws. Silly.
Gotti- you have it right. Just because some provincial or draconian law works in some quaint country somewhere doesn't mean it will work here or that we'd even want it. I don't care what country in the world you go to. If you want drugs or a gun and have $$ you're gonna get it laws or no laws. Watch it Gotti talking about Switzerland handling firearms well or that quack will be attacking US society and all our faults again.
Snoopis- there's just a whole bunch of people that believe tin horn politicians passing some feel-good law is going to be the magic bullet on top of over 20,000 other firearms laws. Silly.
Gotti- you have it right. Just because some provincial or draconian law works in some quaint country somewhere doesn't mean it will work here or that we'd even want it. I don't care what country in the world you go to. If you want drugs or a gun and have $$ you're gonna get it laws or no laws. Watch it Gotti talking about Switzerland handling firearms well or that quack will be attacking US society and all our faults again.
Muscletang
03-22-2005, 09:29 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/national/22shoot.html
Another triumph for American gun law.
You talk about us gun owners turning the story around well you should stop yourself. The gun laws had nothing to do with this at all. The kid stole his grandfathers guns and that's what he used to go kill people with. If the kid would of stole his grandfather's BMW would your quote read, "Another triumph for the American automotive laws!"?
Makes all your NRA bullshit excuses look as pathetic as they are. If you want to argue that your country is better than mine, come up with a few incidents where children have been murdered in their New Zealand schools, or shot at at random by a sniper while they fueled up with gas.
I never said NZ is better than the U.S. in any of my post to my knowledge. The thing is NZ has the same population of the state I live in, Oklahoma. In Oklahoma there has only been one school shooting and nobody was killed. There have also been no sniper attacks ever. The U.S. has far more people and far more criminals that what NZ will ever have. If this is a numbers game then the U.S. is going to win, even if it's good or bad.
Until then, your country's gun laws blow, and you have no statistics relative to the argument.
What gun law would that be, the 2nd amendment?
Such a shame your 'good Samaritan' gun user couldn't prevent this tragedy.Could have something to do with the fact that he got shot dead at the last one.
You talk down on good smaritans but in the area I live the news is filled with them. I live out in the country with a bunch of country folks so everybody pretty much has a gun. It's hard to open the paper and not see "Man tries to break into house, neighbor shoots him" or something else.
Enjoy your guns gentlemen. I'll bet none of you would show up at these children's funerals spouting your ridiculous nonsense about how good it is to own one.
Oh I'm enjoying my right to own a gun you can count on that. Also, what "ridiculous nonsense" are you talking about? I wouldn't go to a kid's funeral and say "I love guns la la la" because that is very disrespectful. I don't know what you've been watching or reading taranaki but your views are messed up. It seems to me that you believe anybody who owns a gun is stupid and not in their right mind. I ask you to rethink this out because us gun owners are people too.
Another triumph for American gun law.
You talk about us gun owners turning the story around well you should stop yourself. The gun laws had nothing to do with this at all. The kid stole his grandfathers guns and that's what he used to go kill people with. If the kid would of stole his grandfather's BMW would your quote read, "Another triumph for the American automotive laws!"?
Makes all your NRA bullshit excuses look as pathetic as they are. If you want to argue that your country is better than mine, come up with a few incidents where children have been murdered in their New Zealand schools, or shot at at random by a sniper while they fueled up with gas.
I never said NZ is better than the U.S. in any of my post to my knowledge. The thing is NZ has the same population of the state I live in, Oklahoma. In Oklahoma there has only been one school shooting and nobody was killed. There have also been no sniper attacks ever. The U.S. has far more people and far more criminals that what NZ will ever have. If this is a numbers game then the U.S. is going to win, even if it's good or bad.
Until then, your country's gun laws blow, and you have no statistics relative to the argument.
What gun law would that be, the 2nd amendment?
Such a shame your 'good Samaritan' gun user couldn't prevent this tragedy.Could have something to do with the fact that he got shot dead at the last one.
You talk down on good smaritans but in the area I live the news is filled with them. I live out in the country with a bunch of country folks so everybody pretty much has a gun. It's hard to open the paper and not see "Man tries to break into house, neighbor shoots him" or something else.
Enjoy your guns gentlemen. I'll bet none of you would show up at these children's funerals spouting your ridiculous nonsense about how good it is to own one.
Oh I'm enjoying my right to own a gun you can count on that. Also, what "ridiculous nonsense" are you talking about? I wouldn't go to a kid's funeral and say "I love guns la la la" because that is very disrespectful. I don't know what you've been watching or reading taranaki but your views are messed up. It seems to me that you believe anybody who owns a gun is stupid and not in their right mind. I ask you to rethink this out because us gun owners are people too.
taranaki
03-23-2005, 01:24 AM
You talk about us gun owners turning the story around well you should stop yourself. The gun laws had nothing to do with this at all. The kid stole his grandfathers guns and that's what he used to go kill people with. If the kid would of stole his grandfather's BMW would your quote read, "Another triumph for the American automotive laws!"?
If you can find an article for me on any kid going nuts with a car and causing this much intentional death andd injury, I'll take this as a valid argument.As it stands, you are just ducking the issue.
The U.S. has far more people and far more criminals that what NZ will ever have. If this is a numbers game then the U.S. is going to win, even if it's good or bad. Which is why it should be made harder for them to access guns,obviously.
You talk down on good smaritans but in the area I live the news is filled with them. I live out in the country with a bunch of country folks so everybody pretty much has a gun. It's hard to open the paper and not see "Man tries to break into house, neighbor shoots him" or something else. I don't talk down on good Samaritans, only on the abuse of such names by Gun-toting surrealists.Check your Bible, you'll find that the Good Samaritan actually helped a victim of crime, not committed one.In the real world, if you go off vigilante stye and open fire on another person, YOU GET PROSECUTED AS A COMMON CRIMINAL.
I don't know what you've been watching or reading taranaki but your views are messed up. It seems to me that you believe anybody who owns a gun is stupid and not in their right mind. I ask you to rethink this out because us gun owners are people too.
Sorry buddy, but it seems to me that you are the one with the attitude problem.You live in a counttry with one of the worst rates of gun crime in the world, yet you go on the offensive when people point out what must surely be staggeriingly obvious to you...that feeling safe at night because you have a loaded gun handy is no substitute for knowing that you are safe without one.
If you can find an article for me on any kid going nuts with a car and causing this much intentional death andd injury, I'll take this as a valid argument.As it stands, you are just ducking the issue.
The U.S. has far more people and far more criminals that what NZ will ever have. If this is a numbers game then the U.S. is going to win, even if it's good or bad. Which is why it should be made harder for them to access guns,obviously.
You talk down on good smaritans but in the area I live the news is filled with them. I live out in the country with a bunch of country folks so everybody pretty much has a gun. It's hard to open the paper and not see "Man tries to break into house, neighbor shoots him" or something else. I don't talk down on good Samaritans, only on the abuse of such names by Gun-toting surrealists.Check your Bible, you'll find that the Good Samaritan actually helped a victim of crime, not committed one.In the real world, if you go off vigilante stye and open fire on another person, YOU GET PROSECUTED AS A COMMON CRIMINAL.
I don't know what you've been watching or reading taranaki but your views are messed up. It seems to me that you believe anybody who owns a gun is stupid and not in their right mind. I ask you to rethink this out because us gun owners are people too.
Sorry buddy, but it seems to me that you are the one with the attitude problem.You live in a counttry with one of the worst rates of gun crime in the world, yet you go on the offensive when people point out what must surely be staggeriingly obvious to you...that feeling safe at night because you have a loaded gun handy is no substitute for knowing that you are safe without one.
taranaki
03-23-2005, 01:29 AM
Fred- I hear ya guy! I just get tired of hearing the sheep shit about how perfect NZ is. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of websites that tell a whole different tale about NZ crime than our prevaricating pervert does. I'm tired of America bashing pukes from isolated nowhere locales ranting incoherently about Bush, US citizens and on and on. Take some time and read those rambling tirades and haranges that just go on and on never addressing any precise subject but go off instead attempting to verbally debase the US. How many times have jagoffs hijacked threads to thump their rhetorical bullshit bibles. Just look at the venom coming outta this guy. He's sick.
Snoopis- there's just a whole bunch of people that believe tin horn politicians passing some feel-good law is going to be the magic bullet on top of over 20,000 other firearms laws. Silly.
Gotti- you have it right. Just because some provincial or draconian law works in some quaint country somewhere doesn't mean it will work here or that we'd even want it. I don't care what country in the world you go to. If you want drugs or a gun and have $$ you're gonna get it laws or no laws. Watch it Gotti talking about Switzerland handling firearms well or that quack will be attacking US society and all our faults again.
Nice line of abuse there Twitch, I'll take it that you STILL don't have the skills to debate like a man.Nowhere in my posts do I ever target US citizens, and I'd argue that the majority of them are perfectly sane and reasonable people.Like any country, it has its share of knuckle-dragging fucktards, but just because every worthless flagwaver would rather carry a gun and vote for Bush, it doesn't automatically follow that in my book anyone who votes Republican or has a gun is a moron.
Frankly, I'm getting just as tired of your ridiculous dribbling as you are of being told the truth.I have issues with a couple of aspects of your culture, but that does not mean that you have to start with childish crap like this.Unless of course, you are intellectually incapable of debating, in which case you should maybe stay out of arguments that you can't win.
Snoopis- there's just a whole bunch of people that believe tin horn politicians passing some feel-good law is going to be the magic bullet on top of over 20,000 other firearms laws. Silly.
Gotti- you have it right. Just because some provincial or draconian law works in some quaint country somewhere doesn't mean it will work here or that we'd even want it. I don't care what country in the world you go to. If you want drugs or a gun and have $$ you're gonna get it laws or no laws. Watch it Gotti talking about Switzerland handling firearms well or that quack will be attacking US society and all our faults again.
Nice line of abuse there Twitch, I'll take it that you STILL don't have the skills to debate like a man.Nowhere in my posts do I ever target US citizens, and I'd argue that the majority of them are perfectly sane and reasonable people.Like any country, it has its share of knuckle-dragging fucktards, but just because every worthless flagwaver would rather carry a gun and vote for Bush, it doesn't automatically follow that in my book anyone who votes Republican or has a gun is a moron.
Frankly, I'm getting just as tired of your ridiculous dribbling as you are of being told the truth.I have issues with a couple of aspects of your culture, but that does not mean that you have to start with childish crap like this.Unless of course, you are intellectually incapable of debating, in which case you should maybe stay out of arguments that you can't win.
taranaki
03-23-2005, 02:16 AM
I havent read the whole thread but I'd like to point out that your country is a minority, and that would never work in America. If they tried to take away peoples priviledges for gun ownership, honest citizens would lose their guns and criminals would keep theirs. You think criminals get their guns from gun stores?? They get them illegaly, so no laws would stop them from aquiring guns. Then honest people wouldnt have guns and criminals would, whats the point of that?Do tell me where these criminals get their guns from...I've heard pro-gun arguments that say they are not bought from stores, nor are they stolen from legal owners.Is there some secret branch of Smith andWesson that only sells to convicted criminals? Is there a hotline that only crims can use to import their firearms of choice??1-800-AK47, maybe?? It's time to favce up to ythe fact that there is no shortage of armed offending in the US because GUNS ARE FAR TOO EASILY OBTAINED.
[/quote]
Like i said Australia is a minority, there are plenty of countries that have guns everywhere and are safe. Look at Switzerland, have you bin to switzerland? When you walk around you see people carrying guns everywhere, rifles on their back, pistols in their pants and its one of the safest countries in the world. How do you explain that?
Switzerland has a law that states everybody from the ages of 20-42 is required to own a gun and they even have local shooting competitions for 12-16 year olds.... so trying to take all the guns out of the country isnt the solution.[/QUOTE]
Yes, let's compare Switzerland, with one of the highest standards of living in the world, and a history of armed neutrality, with,say the Bronx, or Watts, or,well any other crime centre in America.Let's compare a country that expects the highest standard of behaviour with firearms with the confrotationalle and bullying attitude of the US,where it's ok to shoot as long as the other guy is looking at you a bit funny...
I'f you knew the laws that you quote so freely a little better, you would also know that the Swiss requirement for all males between 20 and 42 to be armed and trained for military service also comes with a rider.The ammunition issued to them is counted and sealed.Break the seal without cause, you are in trouble.Every rouund must be accounted for, and if abused, you get jailed.
In short.Swiss gun owners have been taught that keeping a gun is a responsibility,and one not to be taken lightly.The buffons from the NRA, on the other hand will tell you that gun ownership is a right, and so is shooting at peopl;e as a first line of defence.It's horeshit like that that has dragged what could have been a viable stategy for gun management into armed mayhem.The majority who hold firearms responsibly are being discredited by tthe twitching lunatics who cannot accept that it is not their right ore their responsibility to live their lives according to the laws of the wild west.
[/quote]
Like i said Australia is a minority, there are plenty of countries that have guns everywhere and are safe. Look at Switzerland, have you bin to switzerland? When you walk around you see people carrying guns everywhere, rifles on their back, pistols in their pants and its one of the safest countries in the world. How do you explain that?
Switzerland has a law that states everybody from the ages of 20-42 is required to own a gun and they even have local shooting competitions for 12-16 year olds.... so trying to take all the guns out of the country isnt the solution.[/QUOTE]
Yes, let's compare Switzerland, with one of the highest standards of living in the world, and a history of armed neutrality, with,say the Bronx, or Watts, or,well any other crime centre in America.Let's compare a country that expects the highest standard of behaviour with firearms with the confrotationalle and bullying attitude of the US,where it's ok to shoot as long as the other guy is looking at you a bit funny...
I'f you knew the laws that you quote so freely a little better, you would also know that the Swiss requirement for all males between 20 and 42 to be armed and trained for military service also comes with a rider.The ammunition issued to them is counted and sealed.Break the seal without cause, you are in trouble.Every rouund must be accounted for, and if abused, you get jailed.
In short.Swiss gun owners have been taught that keeping a gun is a responsibility,and one not to be taken lightly.The buffons from the NRA, on the other hand will tell you that gun ownership is a right, and so is shooting at peopl;e as a first line of defence.It's horeshit like that that has dragged what could have been a viable stategy for gun management into armed mayhem.The majority who hold firearms responsibly are being discredited by tthe twitching lunatics who cannot accept that it is not their right ore their responsibility to live their lives according to the laws of the wild west.
fredjacksonsan
03-23-2005, 07:06 AM
The Swiss also have a mandatory military service requirement of 2 years.
SnoopisTDI
03-23-2005, 07:48 AM
I don't talk down on good Samaritans, only on the abuse of such names by Gun-toting surrealists.Check your Bible, you'll find that the Good Samaritan actually helped a victim of crime, not committed one.In the real world, if you go off vigilante stye and open fire on another person, YOU GET PROSECUTED AS A COMMON CRIMINAL.
Actually, the bible says "let he who has no sword sell his garb to obtain one," or something along those lines(sorry, I'm not Christian). The Bible says you have a right to protect yourself and your family.
Further, you seem to be very confused of what vigilante means. Vigilante justice is when someone obtains a suspected criminal, often on hearsay or baseless suspicion, after a crime has been comitted, and punishes/kills the suspect without giving them a trial.
In this case, the good samaritan caught the murderer IN THE ACT and attmepted to put an end to it in order to save lives. Big difference.
In short.Swiss gun owners have been taught that keeping a gun is a responsibility,and one not to be taken lightly.The buffons from the NRA, on the other hand will tell you that gun ownership is a right, and so is shooting at peopl;e as a first line of defence.It's horeshit like that that has dragged what could have been a viable stategy for gun management into armed mayhem.
You've got it bass-ackwards. The "buffoons from the NRA" are practically meticulous when it comes to safe handling and storage of firearms. To say they encourage safety with firearms would be a grand understatement. They know it's a responsibility- but that responsibility is not guns. Guns are a means to an end. The responsibility is "the security of a free state," as affirmed in the Bill of Rights.
It's the gun-grabbing hoplophobes that want to avoid responsibility. They want to blame everything and anything but their beloved unfortunate criminals. They don't want to solve any problems, they shirk THEIR responsibility by placing all blame on an inadequate object instead of dealing with the real issues.
As far as gun ownership being a right, well that's half correct. The right is self defense- guns are just the most effective tool for the job. If you can't have the tools necessary to espouse a right, than what good is that right? The answer is none. If you lived in a land of "free speech" where tongues were illegal... would that really be free speech? What about "freedom of religion" in a land where bibles and churches are illegal?
The majority who hold firearms responsibly are being discredited by tthe twitching lunatics who cannot accept that it is not their right ore their responsibility to live their lives according to the laws of the wild west.
No, the majority who hold firearms responsibly know that self defense is right, and we are being discredited by a few criminals and a handful of ignorant people.
Actually, the bible says "let he who has no sword sell his garb to obtain one," or something along those lines(sorry, I'm not Christian). The Bible says you have a right to protect yourself and your family.
Further, you seem to be very confused of what vigilante means. Vigilante justice is when someone obtains a suspected criminal, often on hearsay or baseless suspicion, after a crime has been comitted, and punishes/kills the suspect without giving them a trial.
In this case, the good samaritan caught the murderer IN THE ACT and attmepted to put an end to it in order to save lives. Big difference.
In short.Swiss gun owners have been taught that keeping a gun is a responsibility,and one not to be taken lightly.The buffons from the NRA, on the other hand will tell you that gun ownership is a right, and so is shooting at peopl;e as a first line of defence.It's horeshit like that that has dragged what could have been a viable stategy for gun management into armed mayhem.
You've got it bass-ackwards. The "buffoons from the NRA" are practically meticulous when it comes to safe handling and storage of firearms. To say they encourage safety with firearms would be a grand understatement. They know it's a responsibility- but that responsibility is not guns. Guns are a means to an end. The responsibility is "the security of a free state," as affirmed in the Bill of Rights.
It's the gun-grabbing hoplophobes that want to avoid responsibility. They want to blame everything and anything but their beloved unfortunate criminals. They don't want to solve any problems, they shirk THEIR responsibility by placing all blame on an inadequate object instead of dealing with the real issues.
As far as gun ownership being a right, well that's half correct. The right is self defense- guns are just the most effective tool for the job. If you can't have the tools necessary to espouse a right, than what good is that right? The answer is none. If you lived in a land of "free speech" where tongues were illegal... would that really be free speech? What about "freedom of religion" in a land where bibles and churches are illegal?
The majority who hold firearms responsibly are being discredited by tthe twitching lunatics who cannot accept that it is not their right ore their responsibility to live their lives according to the laws of the wild west.
No, the majority who hold firearms responsibly know that self defense is right, and we are being discredited by a few criminals and a handful of ignorant people.
Twitch1
03-23-2005, 10:16 AM
"Frankly, I'm getting just as tired of your ridiculous dribbling as you are of being told the truth."
Tarinooki- so only YOU are the savior who speaks the one truth? What a load os self righteous crap! You don't discuss or debate you debase and continually rag on the US and yes, the society= the people. Since there isn't any moderator here it's just a fuck-a-thon argument anyway. You're just a mentally constipated loser. So you don't like me. What are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about Bush or guns in the US or anything you drone on about? Nothing.
"..in the US because GUNS ARE FAR TOO EASILY OBTAINED."
You don't have the slightest idea of the proceedures in place for a citizen to legally purchase a firearm so just stop sounding stupid about it.
You endict our whole society because criminals steal our property (firearms) and then commit crimes? That's totally irrational. Criminals do not legally purchase firearms here. You simply show how ignorant you are when you attempt to comment on laws and social mores of another culture from afar.
Tarinooki- so only YOU are the savior who speaks the one truth? What a load os self righteous crap! You don't discuss or debate you debase and continually rag on the US and yes, the society= the people. Since there isn't any moderator here it's just a fuck-a-thon argument anyway. You're just a mentally constipated loser. So you don't like me. What are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about Bush or guns in the US or anything you drone on about? Nothing.
"..in the US because GUNS ARE FAR TOO EASILY OBTAINED."
You don't have the slightest idea of the proceedures in place for a citizen to legally purchase a firearm so just stop sounding stupid about it.
You endict our whole society because criminals steal our property (firearms) and then commit crimes? That's totally irrational. Criminals do not legally purchase firearms here. You simply show how ignorant you are when you attempt to comment on laws and social mores of another culture from afar.
Muscletang
03-23-2005, 02:33 PM
Myth No. 1: Guns cause crime. A careful review of 18 academic studies shows that there is no relationship between the number of guns and the amount of crime in the United States. International evidence tells a similar story.
Myth No. 2: State adopting Right to Carry Laws Allowing People to Carry concealed weapons will only increase violent crimes: The nation's violent crime rate has decreased every year since 1991 and in 2002 hit a 23-year low. In the same period, 17 states adopted and 13 states improved RTC laws. RTC states have lower violent crime rates, on average: 24% lower total violent crime, 22% lower murder, 37% lower robbery, and 20% lower aggravated assault. The five states with the lowest violent crime rates are RTC states. California a restricted rights state has nearly double the the murders of the highest RTC state and only 176 fewer than the top 3 RTC states combined. When Combined, Restricted rights and No right states (12 in all) these states comprise 38.7 percent (or 5178*) of the total murders in the US a significant number when compared to the 38 RTC states which in total account for 61.3 percent (or 8029**). (Data: FBI) Studying crime trends in every county in the U.S., John Lott and David Mustard found, "allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have Right to Carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly....The estimated annual gain from allowing concealed handguns is at least $6.214 billion....(W)hen state concealed handgun laws went into effect in a county, murders fell by 8.5 percent, and rapes and aggravated assaults fell by 5 and 7 percent." ("Crime, Deterrence, and Right To Carry Concealed Handguns," 1996.) *- Washington D.C. stats not included (usually significant) **- Florida stats unavailable.
Myth No 3: Gun control laws reduce crime. The nation already has 20,000 gun control laws, and the police arrest 220,000 people a year on weapons violations. Yet the violent crime is not deterred. Moreover, considering that fewer than 1 percent of all guns are involved in a crime and only 12 percent of all violent crimes involve a gun, gun control laws could have only a modest effect on crime - even if they worked exactly as intended, which they don't. For example, New Jersey, Hawaii and Washington, D.C., experienced sharp murder-rate increases after passing tough gun control laws. Canada, Taiwan and Jamaica reported similar experiences.
Myth No. 4: Guns are of little help in defending against criminals. In fact, guns are a big help. Each year, potential victims kill from 2,000 to 3,000 criminals and wound an additional 9,000 to 17,000. And mishaps are rare. Private citizens mistakenly kill innocent people only 30 times a year, compared with about 330 mistaken killings by police. Criminals succeed in taking a gun away from an armed victim less than 1 percent of the time.
Myth No. 5: Killing someone is the only reason to buy a handgun. The vast majority of gun owners cite protection from crime as one of the main reasons they own a gun. And for good reason. Americans use guns for self-protection about one million times a year. In 98 percent of the cases, they simply brandish the weapon or fire a warning shot.
Myth No. 6: People who buy guns are more prone to violence and crime than are other people. Violence and crime are higher among black than white, lower-income than middle- or upper-income, young than middle-aged, single than married, and urban than rural individuals - all contrary to the pattern of gun ownership.
Myth No. 7: Killings and other violent crimes were prevalent in the Old West because guns were so plentiful. Much of the violence on the frontier involved clashes with Indians, bandits and foreigners. Even so, the frontier was a lot safer than America is today. There was very little ordinary crime - less than in most cities in the East.
Myth No. 8: Gun controls keep criminals from obtaining guns. In surveys of prisoners, a majority said that prior to imprisonment they had owned a handgun. But fewer than one in six guns had been purchased from a retail dealer. Three-fourths of the felons said they would have no trouble obtaining a gun when they were released, despite legal prohibitions.
Myth No. 9: Required waiting periods would prevent some of the most vicious crimes. If the Brady bill were law, it would not have saved Jim Brady. Nor would it have prevented the Killeen, Texas, massacre or the slaughter at McDonald's in San Ysidro, Calif. However, an instant records check (to identify felons when they try to purchase guns from retail dealers) and better enforcement of existing laws (to turn criminals into convicted felons) might well prevent some vicious crimes.
Myth No. 10: Most murders are committed by people killing friends or family members. The actual number is about one out of five. Most in-household killings are not crimes of passion. They're the culmination of years of abusive behavior, and often it is the abuser who is killed.
Myth No. 11: The availability of guns contributes to crimes of passion. In about 90 percent of "crime-of-passion" domestic homicides, the police had been called in previously to break up violence. In half the cases, the police had been called in five or more times. There is no evidence that a significant number of homicides occur simply because a lethal weapon is handy.
Myth No. 12: Automatic rifles and so-called assault weapons are too dangerous to be left in private hands. Over the past 50 years no civilian has ever used a legally owned machine gun in a violent crime. And despite their repeated use by drug dealers on "Miami Vice" and in the movies, no Uzi has ever been used to kill a police officer. Even gun control advocates concede that so-called assault weapons play a minor role in violent crime.
Myth No. 13: Gun control laws are especially needed to prevent the purchase of "Saturday Night Specials." Inexpensive handguns are involved in only 1 to 3 percent of violent crimes, and criminals are no more likely to use one than any other type of handgun.
Myth No. 14: People don't need guns for self-protection because they can rely on the police. About 83 percent of the population will be victims of violent crime at some point in their lives, and in any given year serious crime touches 25 percent of all households. Considering that, effectively, there is only one police officer on patrol for every 3,300 people, the odds are not likely to improve. And the courts have ruled that government has no duty to protect individual citizens from crime.
Myth No. 15: Gun ownership is not a constitutional right. The Second Amendment reflects the founders' belief that an armed citizenry (called the "general militia") was a necessary precaution against tyranny by our own government and its army. The idea that government has a constitutional right to disarm the general citizenry is totally foreign to the intent of the Constitution's framers.
Myth No. 2: State adopting Right to Carry Laws Allowing People to Carry concealed weapons will only increase violent crimes: The nation's violent crime rate has decreased every year since 1991 and in 2002 hit a 23-year low. In the same period, 17 states adopted and 13 states improved RTC laws. RTC states have lower violent crime rates, on average: 24% lower total violent crime, 22% lower murder, 37% lower robbery, and 20% lower aggravated assault. The five states with the lowest violent crime rates are RTC states. California a restricted rights state has nearly double the the murders of the highest RTC state and only 176 fewer than the top 3 RTC states combined. When Combined, Restricted rights and No right states (12 in all) these states comprise 38.7 percent (or 5178*) of the total murders in the US a significant number when compared to the 38 RTC states which in total account for 61.3 percent (or 8029**). (Data: FBI) Studying crime trends in every county in the U.S., John Lott and David Mustard found, "allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have Right to Carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly....The estimated annual gain from allowing concealed handguns is at least $6.214 billion....(W)hen state concealed handgun laws went into effect in a county, murders fell by 8.5 percent, and rapes and aggravated assaults fell by 5 and 7 percent." ("Crime, Deterrence, and Right To Carry Concealed Handguns," 1996.) *- Washington D.C. stats not included (usually significant) **- Florida stats unavailable.
Myth No 3: Gun control laws reduce crime. The nation already has 20,000 gun control laws, and the police arrest 220,000 people a year on weapons violations. Yet the violent crime is not deterred. Moreover, considering that fewer than 1 percent of all guns are involved in a crime and only 12 percent of all violent crimes involve a gun, gun control laws could have only a modest effect on crime - even if they worked exactly as intended, which they don't. For example, New Jersey, Hawaii and Washington, D.C., experienced sharp murder-rate increases after passing tough gun control laws. Canada, Taiwan and Jamaica reported similar experiences.
Myth No. 4: Guns are of little help in defending against criminals. In fact, guns are a big help. Each year, potential victims kill from 2,000 to 3,000 criminals and wound an additional 9,000 to 17,000. And mishaps are rare. Private citizens mistakenly kill innocent people only 30 times a year, compared with about 330 mistaken killings by police. Criminals succeed in taking a gun away from an armed victim less than 1 percent of the time.
Myth No. 5: Killing someone is the only reason to buy a handgun. The vast majority of gun owners cite protection from crime as one of the main reasons they own a gun. And for good reason. Americans use guns for self-protection about one million times a year. In 98 percent of the cases, they simply brandish the weapon or fire a warning shot.
Myth No. 6: People who buy guns are more prone to violence and crime than are other people. Violence and crime are higher among black than white, lower-income than middle- or upper-income, young than middle-aged, single than married, and urban than rural individuals - all contrary to the pattern of gun ownership.
Myth No. 7: Killings and other violent crimes were prevalent in the Old West because guns were so plentiful. Much of the violence on the frontier involved clashes with Indians, bandits and foreigners. Even so, the frontier was a lot safer than America is today. There was very little ordinary crime - less than in most cities in the East.
Myth No. 8: Gun controls keep criminals from obtaining guns. In surveys of prisoners, a majority said that prior to imprisonment they had owned a handgun. But fewer than one in six guns had been purchased from a retail dealer. Three-fourths of the felons said they would have no trouble obtaining a gun when they were released, despite legal prohibitions.
Myth No. 9: Required waiting periods would prevent some of the most vicious crimes. If the Brady bill were law, it would not have saved Jim Brady. Nor would it have prevented the Killeen, Texas, massacre or the slaughter at McDonald's in San Ysidro, Calif. However, an instant records check (to identify felons when they try to purchase guns from retail dealers) and better enforcement of existing laws (to turn criminals into convicted felons) might well prevent some vicious crimes.
Myth No. 10: Most murders are committed by people killing friends or family members. The actual number is about one out of five. Most in-household killings are not crimes of passion. They're the culmination of years of abusive behavior, and often it is the abuser who is killed.
Myth No. 11: The availability of guns contributes to crimes of passion. In about 90 percent of "crime-of-passion" domestic homicides, the police had been called in previously to break up violence. In half the cases, the police had been called in five or more times. There is no evidence that a significant number of homicides occur simply because a lethal weapon is handy.
Myth No. 12: Automatic rifles and so-called assault weapons are too dangerous to be left in private hands. Over the past 50 years no civilian has ever used a legally owned machine gun in a violent crime. And despite their repeated use by drug dealers on "Miami Vice" and in the movies, no Uzi has ever been used to kill a police officer. Even gun control advocates concede that so-called assault weapons play a minor role in violent crime.
Myth No. 13: Gun control laws are especially needed to prevent the purchase of "Saturday Night Specials." Inexpensive handguns are involved in only 1 to 3 percent of violent crimes, and criminals are no more likely to use one than any other type of handgun.
Myth No. 14: People don't need guns for self-protection because they can rely on the police. About 83 percent of the population will be victims of violent crime at some point in their lives, and in any given year serious crime touches 25 percent of all households. Considering that, effectively, there is only one police officer on patrol for every 3,300 people, the odds are not likely to improve. And the courts have ruled that government has no duty to protect individual citizens from crime.
Myth No. 15: Gun ownership is not a constitutional right. The Second Amendment reflects the founders' belief that an armed citizenry (called the "general militia") was a necessary precaution against tyranny by our own government and its army. The idea that government has a constitutional right to disarm the general citizenry is totally foreign to the intent of the Constitution's framers.
Muscletang
03-23-2005, 03:54 PM
Here are a couple of more stories all filled with facts and figures that back up pro-gun choices. They can be found here: http://www.handguncontrol.net/
I know the name makes you think something else but they're just making fun of the looney left and their ideas.
Handgun Control, Inc. - A Total Stranger To The Truth
http://www.handguncontrol.net/total%20stranger.htm
Why gun control works!
http://www.handguncontrol.net/why_gun_control_works.htm
I know the name makes you think something else but they're just making fun of the looney left and their ideas.
Handgun Control, Inc. - A Total Stranger To The Truth
http://www.handguncontrol.net/total%20stranger.htm
Why gun control works!
http://www.handguncontrol.net/why_gun_control_works.htm
Gotti
03-23-2005, 04:01 PM
Do tell me where these criminals get their guns from...I've heard pro-gun arguments that say they are not bought from stores, nor are they stolen from legal owners.Is there some secret branch of Smith andWesson that only sells to convicted criminals? Is there a hotline that only crims can use to import their firearms of choice??1-800-AK47, maybe??
LMAO Have you ever heard of gun trafficking?! Criminals buy guns from other criminals, you dont have to call 1-800-AK47 :rolleyes:
If you took away everybodies gun in the US, criminals would still have theirs because they dont register them, the cops dont know who has illegal guns. There would always be gun trafficking, and criminals would still be able to get a gun if they wanted one. Tell me how you could stop that?
LMAO Have you ever heard of gun trafficking?! Criminals buy guns from other criminals, you dont have to call 1-800-AK47 :rolleyes:
If you took away everybodies gun in the US, criminals would still have theirs because they dont register them, the cops dont know who has illegal guns. There would always be gun trafficking, and criminals would still be able to get a gun if they wanted one. Tell me how you could stop that?
taranaki
03-23-2005, 07:24 PM
"Frankly, I'm getting just as tired of your ridiculous dribbling as you are of being told the truth."
Tarinooki- so only YOU are the savior who speaks the one truth? What a load os self righteous crap! You don't discuss or debate you debase and continually rag on the US and yes, the society= the people. Since there isn't any moderator here it's just a fuck-a-thon argument anyway. You're just a mentally constipated loser. So you don't like me. What are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about Bush or guns in the US or anything you drone on about? Nothing.
"..in the US because GUNS ARE FAR TOO EASILY OBTAINED."
You don't have the slightest idea of the proceedures in place for a citizen to legally purchase a firearm so just stop sounding stupid about it.
You endict our whole society because criminals steal our property (firearms) and then commit crimes? That's totally irrational. Criminals do not legally purchase firearms here. You simply show how ignorant you are when you attempt to comment on laws and social mores of another culture from afar.
Yet again Twitch shows that he can't or won't debate.Also he fails to realise that there is a moderator here - me. You can, however continue to use as much meaningless abuse as you like as a substitute for credible argument.I see no merit in trying to calm an extremist thart I disagree with, particularly when he is doing such a good job of portraying the bizarre mentality of the scared and ignorant element in society.Keep going with your pathetic assertions that I am somehow anti-American, I have determined that you are not intelligent enough for your opinions to be worth shit to me. You'll notice that I don't talk this way to people like Yogs or Gotti....The reason is very simple.While we are poles apart in opinion, both of the members are intelligent enough to bring worthwhile debate to this forum
You sir, are a non-contributor.Your 'opinion' can be summed up in one sentence, and it's worthless.Why don't you shape up, or ship out?
Tarinooki- so only YOU are the savior who speaks the one truth? What a load os self righteous crap! You don't discuss or debate you debase and continually rag on the US and yes, the society= the people. Since there isn't any moderator here it's just a fuck-a-thon argument anyway. You're just a mentally constipated loser. So you don't like me. What are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about Bush or guns in the US or anything you drone on about? Nothing.
"..in the US because GUNS ARE FAR TOO EASILY OBTAINED."
You don't have the slightest idea of the proceedures in place for a citizen to legally purchase a firearm so just stop sounding stupid about it.
You endict our whole society because criminals steal our property (firearms) and then commit crimes? That's totally irrational. Criminals do not legally purchase firearms here. You simply show how ignorant you are when you attempt to comment on laws and social mores of another culture from afar.
Yet again Twitch shows that he can't or won't debate.Also he fails to realise that there is a moderator here - me. You can, however continue to use as much meaningless abuse as you like as a substitute for credible argument.I see no merit in trying to calm an extremist thart I disagree with, particularly when he is doing such a good job of portraying the bizarre mentality of the scared and ignorant element in society.Keep going with your pathetic assertions that I am somehow anti-American, I have determined that you are not intelligent enough for your opinions to be worth shit to me. You'll notice that I don't talk this way to people like Yogs or Gotti....The reason is very simple.While we are poles apart in opinion, both of the members are intelligent enough to bring worthwhile debate to this forum
You sir, are a non-contributor.Your 'opinion' can be summed up in one sentence, and it's worthless.Why don't you shape up, or ship out?
DGB454
03-23-2005, 08:07 PM
Ok, Let's say we don't ban all guns just the ones that are used to kill people like ak47s and similar weapons. We could leave the sportsmans guns alone because they are out hunting animals and doing skeet shooting and fun things like that. That seems reasonable to me. Then we would be just like every other "non-violent" country in the world as far as gun control measures go wouldn't we?
taranaki
03-23-2005, 10:37 PM
LMAO Have you ever heard of gun trafficking?! Criminals buy guns from other criminals, you dont have to call 1-800-AK47 :rolleyes:
If you took away everybodies gun in the US, criminals would still have theirs because they dont register them, the cops dont know who has illegal guns. There would always be gun trafficking, and criminals would still be able to get a gun if they wanted one. Tell me how you could stop that?
Tell me do where these guns come from.You're telling me nothing new when you say that crims buy and sell guns amomnst each other, but there's no arch criminal growing them on trees in the Nevada desert.They've all got to come from somewhere.If you want to tighten the supply of guns to criminals, you have to tighten the supply of all guns.Ignore the cretins who believe that they need a gun to protect themselves.One of the most ardent gun enthusiasts,Yogs, has already admitted that as a defence weapon his private armoury has proved this far to be superfluous.
Other nations manage perfectly adequately without genocidal levells of gun ownership.None of the pro-gun people in this forum have EVER come up with a valid reason why the US is different from the rest of the world.
If you took away everybodies gun in the US, criminals would still have theirs because they dont register them, the cops dont know who has illegal guns. There would always be gun trafficking, and criminals would still be able to get a gun if they wanted one. Tell me how you could stop that?
Tell me do where these guns come from.You're telling me nothing new when you say that crims buy and sell guns amomnst each other, but there's no arch criminal growing them on trees in the Nevada desert.They've all got to come from somewhere.If you want to tighten the supply of guns to criminals, you have to tighten the supply of all guns.Ignore the cretins who believe that they need a gun to protect themselves.One of the most ardent gun enthusiasts,Yogs, has already admitted that as a defence weapon his private armoury has proved this far to be superfluous.
Other nations manage perfectly adequately without genocidal levells of gun ownership.None of the pro-gun people in this forum have EVER come up with a valid reason why the US is different from the rest of the world.
SniperX13
03-24-2005, 05:31 AM
one thing though taranaki, I am not sure if you have ever heard of the term "clean gun", but alot of times, when a gun is used for certain crimes, its a gun, that was stolen a long time ago, or gotten by other means numbers filed off, and then left in wait for many a years, so by the time its used, its either off the grid, or buried in the system for almost good. you can get rid of all the firearms, but it wont stop all the ones that are already out there hidden.
SnoopisTDI
03-24-2005, 07:39 AM
Myth No. 12: Automatic rifles and so-called assault weapons are too dangerous to be left in private hands. Over the past 50 years no civilian has ever used a legally owned machine gun in a violent crime. And despite their repeated use by drug dealers on "Miami Vice" and in the movies, no Uzi has ever been used to kill a police officer. Even gun control advocates concede that so-called assault weapons play a minor role in violent crime.
I have to disagree with that part. There was one case of a civilian using a legally owned machine gun to commit a violent crime. He was a police officer.
Tell me do where these guns come from.You're telling me nothing new when you say that crims buy and sell guns amomnst each other, but there's no arch criminal growing them on trees in the Nevada desert.They've all got to come from somewhere.
Some of them are stolen from people's homes or vehicles. This is true. But I don't know how many, maybe I can try to find some statistics on it. Just about everyone I know keeps their guns locked up- unless you can remove the bolts from the floor and carry a 400-1000lb safe(that's empty, so figure at least a hundred pounds inside of it), you're not getting them.
Some of them are stolen from police and other law enforcement, like this example (http://www.news4jax.com/news/4173456/detail.html). For a more comprehensive report on government guns disappearing, check out Hundreds of Guns Missing From Federal Police Agencies (http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1207669.html).
You also have a lot of guns brought into the country illegaly- they just ship it in with the marijuana and the mexicans.
Ok, on stolen guns: States with high crime see more guns stolen (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-12-17-guns-usat_x.htm). Basically, 1.7million over 9.5 years, about 40% of which were recovered. From reading other articles, it seems a lot of them are stolen from gun stores(20%?). Someone steals a truck, drives it through the wall of a sporting goods store and disappears with 30 or 40 handguns. You also have guys like that one gun store owner from Indianapolis, who has guns "lost in a fire" that turn up in a murder in Gary 6 months later. Politics is the only reason that ex-Union thug isn't in prison. And of course there are people who make guns, but I don't think criminals in the US are making their own guns- yet.
So I guess that's 0.4% of the federal governments guns get stolen and 0.6% of the people's guns. Sounds like 99.4% of us are keeping our guns to ourselves. Still, 1.7mil stolen over nearly 10 years IS embarassing. I didn't know it was that high. At least everything I'm reading shows that the number of guns being stolen is decreasing steadily.
At the same time, I don't know anyone personally who has had a firearm stolen, although my dad did have a compound bow stolen from his van about 20 years ago. I am also a member of a few gun forums on-line, and rarely do I hear about any guns stolen.
Anyway, that's definitely an eye opener for me about how many guns are stolen. But just because some guy in Atlanta was too cheap to buy a safe is NO excuse to take away my right of self defense. Again, punish the criminal, not the responsible, law abiding citizen.
Ok, Let's say we don't ban all guns just the ones that are used to kill people like ak47s and similar weapons. We could leave the sportsmans guns alone because they are out hunting animals and doing skeet shooting and fun things like that. That seems reasonable to me. Then we would be just like every other "non-violent" country in the world as far as gun control measures go wouldn't we?
The "Ak47s and similar weapons" are rarely used to kill people. Assault weapons are used in about 3% of crimes involving firearms, and about 1/2 of one percent of violent crime in general.
I have to disagree with that part. There was one case of a civilian using a legally owned machine gun to commit a violent crime. He was a police officer.
Tell me do where these guns come from.You're telling me nothing new when you say that crims buy and sell guns amomnst each other, but there's no arch criminal growing them on trees in the Nevada desert.They've all got to come from somewhere.
Some of them are stolen from people's homes or vehicles. This is true. But I don't know how many, maybe I can try to find some statistics on it. Just about everyone I know keeps their guns locked up- unless you can remove the bolts from the floor and carry a 400-1000lb safe(that's empty, so figure at least a hundred pounds inside of it), you're not getting them.
Some of them are stolen from police and other law enforcement, like this example (http://www.news4jax.com/news/4173456/detail.html). For a more comprehensive report on government guns disappearing, check out Hundreds of Guns Missing From Federal Police Agencies (http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1207669.html).
You also have a lot of guns brought into the country illegaly- they just ship it in with the marijuana and the mexicans.
Ok, on stolen guns: States with high crime see more guns stolen (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-12-17-guns-usat_x.htm). Basically, 1.7million over 9.5 years, about 40% of which were recovered. From reading other articles, it seems a lot of them are stolen from gun stores(20%?). Someone steals a truck, drives it through the wall of a sporting goods store and disappears with 30 or 40 handguns. You also have guys like that one gun store owner from Indianapolis, who has guns "lost in a fire" that turn up in a murder in Gary 6 months later. Politics is the only reason that ex-Union thug isn't in prison. And of course there are people who make guns, but I don't think criminals in the US are making their own guns- yet.
So I guess that's 0.4% of the federal governments guns get stolen and 0.6% of the people's guns. Sounds like 99.4% of us are keeping our guns to ourselves. Still, 1.7mil stolen over nearly 10 years IS embarassing. I didn't know it was that high. At least everything I'm reading shows that the number of guns being stolen is decreasing steadily.
At the same time, I don't know anyone personally who has had a firearm stolen, although my dad did have a compound bow stolen from his van about 20 years ago. I am also a member of a few gun forums on-line, and rarely do I hear about any guns stolen.
Anyway, that's definitely an eye opener for me about how many guns are stolen. But just because some guy in Atlanta was too cheap to buy a safe is NO excuse to take away my right of self defense. Again, punish the criminal, not the responsible, law abiding citizen.
Ok, Let's say we don't ban all guns just the ones that are used to kill people like ak47s and similar weapons. We could leave the sportsmans guns alone because they are out hunting animals and doing skeet shooting and fun things like that. That seems reasonable to me. Then we would be just like every other "non-violent" country in the world as far as gun control measures go wouldn't we?
The "Ak47s and similar weapons" are rarely used to kill people. Assault weapons are used in about 3% of crimes involving firearms, and about 1/2 of one percent of violent crime in general.
Twitch1
03-24-2005, 10:06 AM
And then we have the hypocrits that say one thing and do another http://www.sierratimes.com/05/03/06/ccrkba.htm
And the friggin media is real neutral right? http://www.sierratimes.com/05/03/22/jfreeman.htm
And while other countries attempt to save their citizens from themselves and they lock more of their population away and restrict firearms more as their violent crime escalates. You'd think they could see what's going on. The US is far from #1 in many, many categories of crime. #17 of 24 to be exact. A lot of those lovely provincial fairytale lands like Sweden and such are way ahead of us. Of course the anti-firearms folks never ever mention that. This is simply one of many coroberating studies...http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/may/19/dantre.htm
http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/waffen/violent-smiley-043.gif
And the friggin media is real neutral right? http://www.sierratimes.com/05/03/22/jfreeman.htm
And while other countries attempt to save their citizens from themselves and they lock more of their population away and restrict firearms more as their violent crime escalates. You'd think they could see what's going on. The US is far from #1 in many, many categories of crime. #17 of 24 to be exact. A lot of those lovely provincial fairytale lands like Sweden and such are way ahead of us. Of course the anti-firearms folks never ever mention that. This is simply one of many coroberating studies...http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/may/19/dantre.htm
http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/waffen/violent-smiley-043.gif
SnoopisTDI
03-24-2005, 12:10 PM
And while other countries attempt to save their citizens from themselves and they lock more of their population away and restrict firearms more as their violent crime escalates. You'd think they could see what's going on. The US is far from #1 in many, many categories of crime. #17 of 24 to be exact. A lot of those lovely provincial fairytale lands like Sweden and such are way ahead of us. Of course the anti-firearms folks never ever mention that.
That's what I really don't understand. You have places like the UK where crime is rising, so they outlaw guns, which were hardly used in crime in the first place. Then crime continues to rise (surprise surprise), all the while the citizens have no means of self defense. If I was in a situation where crime was rising, the last thing I would want to do is give up my right to self defense.
That's what I really don't understand. You have places like the UK where crime is rising, so they outlaw guns, which were hardly used in crime in the first place. Then crime continues to rise (surprise surprise), all the while the citizens have no means of self defense. If I was in a situation where crime was rising, the last thing I would want to do is give up my right to self defense.
YogsVR4
03-24-2005, 12:25 PM
Most of the anti-gun crowd talk about how the crime rate in the US would drop if there were no guns on one side of their mouth but say the increase in crimes in the UK and elsewere (that have gun control) has nothing to do with the restrictions on guns. Either guns are behind the cause for the crime or they are not. They need to pick the side of the fence they are on. A rational person would know that the gun is a tool in the crime, not the motivating factor for it, but thats not how they present things.
Twitch1
03-24-2005, 01:56 PM
Yogs, Snoopis- Anyone with normal rational deductive reasoning sees it that way. The antis are just blind to logic.
What is puzzling is why the hell persons from the countries with the "pretend" low crime stats even give a shit about the US's internal crimes. I mean I'm sure not losing sleep over Norway's drunk driving statistics, France's armed robberies or Sweden's exploding auto theft rates.
Perhaps it's simply some other agenda and this forum is an opportunity to snipe at the US in general.
What is puzzling is why the hell persons from the countries with the "pretend" low crime stats even give a shit about the US's internal crimes. I mean I'm sure not losing sleep over Norway's drunk driving statistics, France's armed robberies or Sweden's exploding auto theft rates.
Perhaps it's simply some other agenda and this forum is an opportunity to snipe at the US in general.
DGB454
03-24-2005, 04:00 PM
I
The "Ak47s and similar weapons" are rarely used to kill people. Assault weapons are used in about 3% of crimes involving firearms, and about 1/2 of one percent of violent crime in general.
You are getting ahead of me. I was going to try and slowly lead people to that end but you got there before I did.
The "Ak47s and similar weapons" are rarely used to kill people. Assault weapons are used in about 3% of crimes involving firearms, and about 1/2 of one percent of violent crime in general.
You are getting ahead of me. I was going to try and slowly lead people to that end but you got there before I did.
taranaki
03-24-2005, 11:23 PM
Yogs, Snoopis- Anyone with normal rational deductive reasoning sees it that way. The antis are just blind to logic.
What is puzzling is why the hell persons from the countries with the "pretend" low crime stats even give a shit about the US's internal crimes. I mean I'm sure not losing sleep over Norway's drunk driving statistics, France's armed robberies or Sweden's exploding auto theft rates.
Perhaps it's simply some other agenda and this forum is an opportunity to snipe at the US in general.
aaaaaaaaaaaaw, how sweet...it's the tired old 'anti America' argument again.First you accuse us of not having logic, then you argue that we are irrationally hatin' on the US in general.
Would it be too much to ask you to just grow up and stop talking shit, Twitch? You want logic, here's logic .I don't like guns.50% of the firearms IN THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD ARE IN THE HANDS OF ONE COUNTRY.So tell me, genius, if I want to see guns treated with a bit more common sense where do I logically start?No, not America, try my own country.Before criticising anyone elses' way of life, you make sure that your own back yard is tidy.And I've proven that to be the case time and again, despite the best efforts of the spin mercharts from the pro-gun brigade.
Lets look at some of the flat lies that you have told rather than face up to the possibility that someone else might have better ideas..
You've said I'm anti-American.YOU'RE WRONG. I despise morons. If that moron happens to be American then so be it. I don't have a problem with most of the Americans that I deal with because most of them are not morons.
You've said I'm out to take away your right to defend yourself.WRONG AGAIN. i've outlined the way thins are here and pointed out that your need for self defence would be greatly readuced if it wasn't so eadsy for criminals in the States to arm themselves.
You've said that I want to take America's guns away.WRONG AGAIN.Unless you are a moron, in which case you should never have been allowed one in the first case.
You've used all the bullshit stock answers, the cut/paste excuses from pro-gun interests, the tired old cliches put out by scumbags like the NRA.I've yet to see one original thought worth shit from you.In short, you are an unpaid mouthpiece for the gun industry.You must be so proud.
I came to this forum with the belief that if American legislators took a little bit more responsibility for the safety of their own citizens and put a few basic pieces of legislation in place, then maybe they could start to steer the average American toward the safe and appropriate use of firearms.What I got in return was the braying of hardcore gun nuts like Twitch, who will tell any number of lies about me when their argument somewhat predictably falls on its face.
If you want to debate,Twitch,bring it on.If you'd rather lie and yell,I suggest you go find another outlet.You're not mentally or socially capable of debating this argument,and ideologically,you don't have a shit show of winning it.
What is puzzling is why the hell persons from the countries with the "pretend" low crime stats even give a shit about the US's internal crimes. I mean I'm sure not losing sleep over Norway's drunk driving statistics, France's armed robberies or Sweden's exploding auto theft rates.
Perhaps it's simply some other agenda and this forum is an opportunity to snipe at the US in general.
aaaaaaaaaaaaw, how sweet...it's the tired old 'anti America' argument again.First you accuse us of not having logic, then you argue that we are irrationally hatin' on the US in general.
Would it be too much to ask you to just grow up and stop talking shit, Twitch? You want logic, here's logic .I don't like guns.50% of the firearms IN THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD ARE IN THE HANDS OF ONE COUNTRY.So tell me, genius, if I want to see guns treated with a bit more common sense where do I logically start?No, not America, try my own country.Before criticising anyone elses' way of life, you make sure that your own back yard is tidy.And I've proven that to be the case time and again, despite the best efforts of the spin mercharts from the pro-gun brigade.
Lets look at some of the flat lies that you have told rather than face up to the possibility that someone else might have better ideas..
You've said I'm anti-American.YOU'RE WRONG. I despise morons. If that moron happens to be American then so be it. I don't have a problem with most of the Americans that I deal with because most of them are not morons.
You've said I'm out to take away your right to defend yourself.WRONG AGAIN. i've outlined the way thins are here and pointed out that your need for self defence would be greatly readuced if it wasn't so eadsy for criminals in the States to arm themselves.
You've said that I want to take America's guns away.WRONG AGAIN.Unless you are a moron, in which case you should never have been allowed one in the first case.
You've used all the bullshit stock answers, the cut/paste excuses from pro-gun interests, the tired old cliches put out by scumbags like the NRA.I've yet to see one original thought worth shit from you.In short, you are an unpaid mouthpiece for the gun industry.You must be so proud.
I came to this forum with the belief that if American legislators took a little bit more responsibility for the safety of their own citizens and put a few basic pieces of legislation in place, then maybe they could start to steer the average American toward the safe and appropriate use of firearms.What I got in return was the braying of hardcore gun nuts like Twitch, who will tell any number of lies about me when their argument somewhat predictably falls on its face.
If you want to debate,Twitch,bring it on.If you'd rather lie and yell,I suggest you go find another outlet.You're not mentally or socially capable of debating this argument,and ideologically,you don't have a shit show of winning it.
taranaki
03-24-2005, 11:38 PM
Most of the anti-gun crowd talk about how the crime rate in the US would drop if there were no guns on one side of their mouth but say the increase in crimes in the UK and elsewere (that have gun control) has nothing to do with the restrictions on guns. Either guns are behind the cause for the crime or they are not. They need to pick the side of the fence they are on. A rational person would know that the gun is a tool in the crime, not the motivating factor for it, but thats not how they present things.
An intelligent person would tell you that there are three factors to any crime
Motive
Means
Opportunity.
Take a look at the second one.Some skinny punk wants to rob a bank.If he is unarmed, he lacks the means.
Take a look at the third one.A mugger wants your car.If he's unarmed, and you are locked in, he lacks both the opportunity to take control of your vehicle, and the means of forcing you to surrender it.
An intelligent person would tell you that all classes of crime are on the increase in most countries, with or without gun control.There is no logical connection between crime levels and gun control. The correlation is between the availability of firearms and the nature and consequenses of the crime.If Yogs left his gun at home and got hit by a bus, it does not logically follow that the bus hit him because he wasn't carrying his firearm.Those who choose to point to other countries' rising crime rates conveniently overlook the fact that their own countries' statistics are so far ahead that their argument makes no sense.This country could have a 100% increase in violent crime overnight and still be safer than theirs.
An intelligent person would tell you that there are three factors to any crime
Motive
Means
Opportunity.
Take a look at the second one.Some skinny punk wants to rob a bank.If he is unarmed, he lacks the means.
Take a look at the third one.A mugger wants your car.If he's unarmed, and you are locked in, he lacks both the opportunity to take control of your vehicle, and the means of forcing you to surrender it.
An intelligent person would tell you that all classes of crime are on the increase in most countries, with or without gun control.There is no logical connection between crime levels and gun control. The correlation is between the availability of firearms and the nature and consequenses of the crime.If Yogs left his gun at home and got hit by a bus, it does not logically follow that the bus hit him because he wasn't carrying his firearm.Those who choose to point to other countries' rising crime rates conveniently overlook the fact that their own countries' statistics are so far ahead that their argument makes no sense.This country could have a 100% increase in violent crime overnight and still be safer than theirs.
MagicRat
03-25-2005, 10:52 AM
An intelligent person would tell you that all classes of crime are on the increase in most countries, with or without gun control..
I agree with your point in your post. Obvoiusly, removing a tool of the criminal makes it more difficult for them to function.
However, it is a common fallacy to believe that crime levels are increasing.
At least in Canada and the US, overall crime rates per capita peaked in 1977 in both countries and have been on the decline ever since. This includes almost all kinds of violent crime.
Sure sociologists and criminoligists would be delighted if they could actually credit this trend to certain specific factors, or functions of society.
Certainly gun control very likely plays a part in this trend, but so does the efforts of the judicial system to lock criminals away and deter crime through better education, better standards of living and better social welfare systems, especially for our youth.
And twitch, since I am a gun owner, I must say that fart jokes do not help the pro-gun side of this debate. I am sure you can come up with a better rebuttal than that.
I agree with your point in your post. Obvoiusly, removing a tool of the criminal makes it more difficult for them to function.
However, it is a common fallacy to believe that crime levels are increasing.
At least in Canada and the US, overall crime rates per capita peaked in 1977 in both countries and have been on the decline ever since. This includes almost all kinds of violent crime.
Sure sociologists and criminoligists would be delighted if they could actually credit this trend to certain specific factors, or functions of society.
Certainly gun control very likely plays a part in this trend, but so does the efforts of the judicial system to lock criminals away and deter crime through better education, better standards of living and better social welfare systems, especially for our youth.
And twitch, since I am a gun owner, I must say that fart jokes do not help the pro-gun side of this debate. I am sure you can come up with a better rebuttal than that.
Twitch1
03-25-2005, 04:48 PM
Rat- you're precisely right about Canada. Check this link- both pages- and click on all the hyperlinks for full info.
Oh, the other bit? I just refuse to communicate directly with lying hatemongers or read their socialist propaganda. Check the other topic posts from all the others on "gun myths" here and deceide for yourself if we haven't quelled whatever naive opposition there may be.
http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Bondage.gif
Oh, the other bit? I just refuse to communicate directly with lying hatemongers or read their socialist propaganda. Check the other topic posts from all the others on "gun myths" here and deceide for yourself if we haven't quelled whatever naive opposition there may be.
http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Bondage.gif
taranaki
03-25-2005, 06:05 PM
Oh, the other bit? I just refuse to communicate directly with lying hatemongers or read their socialist propaganda. Check the other topic posts from all the others on "gun myths" here and deceide for yourself if we haven't quelled whatever naive opposition there may be.
http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Bondage.gif
If you really believe that indirect sniping is a better way to debate, you have even less relevance than I first thought.Having read your somewhat childish post about flatulence before you so bravely deleted it, it confirms my opinion of your inability to debate like an adult.As for the other posts on "gun myths", they simply prove that firearms fetishists know how to cut and paste ideas that are in the interests of their puppet masters.Please,Twitch, either participate, or go away.Hiding behingd the trash cans hurling abuse at those you disagree with is just a little bit lame.This topic is clearly over with the oxymoron of gun control being duplicated in other threads, the thread is now closed, thank you to all of the posters who contributed something useful.And thank you,Twitch,for making me laugh.
http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Bondage.gif
If you really believe that indirect sniping is a better way to debate, you have even less relevance than I first thought.Having read your somewhat childish post about flatulence before you so bravely deleted it, it confirms my opinion of your inability to debate like an adult.As for the other posts on "gun myths", they simply prove that firearms fetishists know how to cut and paste ideas that are in the interests of their puppet masters.Please,Twitch, either participate, or go away.Hiding behingd the trash cans hurling abuse at those you disagree with is just a little bit lame.This topic is clearly over with the oxymoron of gun control being duplicated in other threads, the thread is now closed, thank you to all of the posters who contributed something useful.And thank you,Twitch,for making me laugh.
Automotive Network, Inc., Copyright ©2026