bad baterey?

My mom has a 2000 sprtage and has been having problems with it starting. About a week ago she said it would just keep turning over and not starting but then it did and worked fine for 4 or five days and did it again started good for another few days then wouldn’t start again this time it never would start. So I went to look at it and it would crank over fine but not wanting to fire up. The battery was about dead by this time so I jumped it and tried to start it and it started right up. took the cable off and shut it off and turned it on about two or three times then it wouldn’t start again so I put the cables back on and it started back up .took the bat. To get checked and it was bad. Put a new one in and started several times in a row .could it have been the bat or just a coincidence? The starter sounded like it was turning fast enough to start it before the new bat. But just wouldn’t any ideas?

Similar reports (have not had that problem myself) are most often traced down to the crank position sensor.
http://www.geocities.com/lmp4203/kiasport/cam_crank_sensors.jpg

THis seems to be a common problem having that erratic character and it would at least demand to be part of the investigation whenever it occurs again ...(...I lean on the side of coincidence 'bout the battery..if it was the oriinal, it was due rather sooner than later anyway..that is my case). Try to get the codes out of this diagnostic plug....that will need a scanner. I'm told AUtozone (unknown in my part of Canada) does it for free.

ANother likely possibility is the Idle Air COntrol valve, located on the air intake exhaust side of the engine.
http://www.geocities.com/lmp4203/kiasport/IAC.jpg
It gets sticky and causes that kind of problem; once removed (2 screws), spraying carb cleaner into IAC ports will restore free operation. SInce doing this costs about nothing, this is at least wise maintenance.

thanks for the reply, it stopped starting again so I am checking it out again this time I think it might be the fuel pump but going to do more checking I cant hear it when I turn the key on and I took the line off the fuel filter and didn’t get any fuel out when I turned the key on .checked the plugs for fire and had spark so I don’t think it is the cam position sender does this sound correct to you?

Based on these, I'd also like to know why I do not have that fuel coming.....I'd disconnect the pump and look for 12v when turning the key on: OK the fuel pump seems not to operate, but is it due to the pump or the voltage feed?

i am checking that to night is there a fuse going to just the fuel pump or is the relay the only thing in line ?

would you happen to have a wireing diagram for this ? i checked the voltage and i have 12 volts going to the relay but not at the fuse is tere any thing else that would be stopping the voltage? i swaped the relays out but didnt do any good

CHeck here:
www.geocities.com/lmp4203/kiasport/PowerDist.jpg
www.geocities.com/lmp4203/kiasport/FuelPumpCircuit.jpg

Thanks this will be a big help tonight. this is my moms car and I do not have a book for it and the only one we can find is from the dealer. If I am reading this diagram right the hot wire goes straight from the fuel pump relay to the fuse in the driver’s area to the pump is this correct? If so what turns it off when it build pressure at the injectors. Again thanks for all the help you have given me.

As you see the relay coil itself is controlled by the ECM so the ECM CAN trig the pump on and off if a pressure info is fed to the ECM. However at this point, I'm not sure the pump is actually trigged on and off to maintain pressure..except at start-up to avoid flooding. I will try to check that but I thing the pump runs all the time and pressure is mechanically controlled and a return line deviates the excess fuel back to the tank thus maintaining constant line pressure.

thanks

Ok. I checked ever thing out and what I found is the fuel pump is good to find that out I ran a jumper to the green/yellow wire from the bat. And it came right on. What else I found was that the relay was not switching on the diagram I got from you I have 12 volts at the #5,1,2 terminals on the relay but 3 and 4 would not get hot. I know that the relay is good because I ran jumpers from #5 and 2 to the bat. And #1 to ground that pulled in the relay and then #3 and 4 was hot .so now I have to figure out why it will not make the #3 and 4 terminal hot on its own. Sorry if this is confusing but I am hoping some one will be able to help with the problem

Read you loud and clear. Pin 1 of the relay is normally pulled to ground by the ECM, and that is also pin 1 on the ECM. OF course, either there is a condition sensed by the ECM that tells it not to fire the pump (?!?), or the ECM is faulty (largely improbable) or more simply, there is faulty connector C151 in between , or loss of continuity from ECM to relay. I have seen - to my total disbelief - a 10 or 12 gauge wire with a completely corroded spot at one place along its length with total loss of conduction while the insulation looked 100% intact! So if you can spot pin 1 on the ECM plug, just ground it to see if the relay clicks in!

First off, i think i read in my manual that Kia did away with the return line regulation... So I think LMP might be on to something. If he has trouble locating the info, i can check for you.

I'm used to either 4 or six terminal relays...(prefer AC residential elictricity. i assume this is a normally open relay?) but if #1 is in fact your grounded activator and three and four is what the relay breaks... when you pull your relay out, with the car in "on" you should get a ground at 1 against the (+) batery and one hot and one ground at 3 & 4. Is that what you get? also, does jumping out trminals 3 and 4 W/O the relay in make the pump come on?

(i think 2 should also give hot against the ground and i have no idea what a fith terminal does??? what i'm used to is a hot and ground that "make" the relay and a hot that gets made with the ground waiting from the motor. the fact that so much is hot makes me think you got a short or a relay in series with that one that is out or fried. without the diagram i can't be of much more help, sorry)


edit: oops, me trying to make my gramar and help make sense, you beat me to it LMP!

ok it is the pain again just got in from cheching it out againn and i will say i have a test light that will check ground as well as hot and here is what i got ,

key off relay out- 2 hot, 3 and 5 ground 4 and 1 nutrel

key on relay out -same as above

relay in key on 2,1,and 5 hot, 4 and 3 ground

when i jump 3and 4 i get nothing if i jump 2 and 3 the pump runs

it looks to me that ther in no reason for it to not work unless some thing is wrong with 3 but know idea what it wold be is this a ground to the relay box itself?

ALl your measurements are toally correct with the situation you have. All your readings on 3 and 4, either with relay in or out are correct.. 3 and 4 are internally connected together in the relay and get HOT when the relay is activated and then 3 and 4 are conected to the supply(2). What is required here is this: 1 must go ground: when you read 12v on 1, this is because it is ungrounded and you read the 12v supply to 5 through the coil that carries no current at this time. But for the relay to activate, 1 MUST go GROUND, and this is done by the ECM through a wire leading from ECM to relay.

NOw at startup, when you turn the key ON, ECM activates the relay ONLY for about 1 second to prime the cylinders and will NOT activate the relay again unless rotation of engine is detected.
NOw.....do you have the relay activate for 1 second when turning key ON ...and then the ECM waits for engine rotation and this is detected by the crank position sensor........
If you have that 1 second pump burst at KEY ON, and then nothing when you start, then the ECM works OK but does not see the negine rotate: most probable and common problem: CRANK SENSOR.
IF you do not have the 1 second burst...then either you have a bad connextion from ECM to pump (1 to 1) or you have a faulty ECM.....

:banghead:

how do i keep missing LMP's posts? crist, someone bann me already!

(rest of message deleted and i am going home now)

also with the key off and relay instaled i got
2-hot
1,3,4,5-ground
if i ground #1 with relay in the pump runs.

All of that totally normal.
We just want #1 to ground for at least 1 second when turning the key on and then when engine cranks.

Thanks you are a big help I will check the crank sender tonight. Will I need to check the cam sender to?

Did you check for that 1 second pump burst at KEY ON? (someone must watch the voltmeter or have an ear on the pump while you turn the key on)
I'm going to doublecheck about cam, but probably not in cause here. ANd.....did you have codes read on that computer?...OF course that is easy when the car runs and you can go for that check....but since it is stranded there!!!...
.IN fact, do you have the CEL on? Crank sender error would normally light it up (I guess you would have told )..

i do not get the 1 second start up (i dont think so any way) i will check again . where is the computer located on this so i can check the wireing? this car did have an intermitent problem with not whanting to start the last couple of weeks but never gave a code so i am hopping may be it will bw just a bad wire .

not shure what the cel is ?

Check Engine Light
COmputer is BEHIND LOWER RIGHT SIDE OF INSTRUMENT PANEL

IN fact.....since you can run the pump with a jumper, have you tried to start it in the "jumped" condition? (I'd try it!). THis will also confirm/deny the crank sensor option. If it starts, then obviously the crank and cam sensors are most probably OK!

good ideai will do that hanks a lot

Caution: you should have someone connect the jumper just as you are ready to start the car this to avoid any chance of flooding that might prevent firing up and yield false results. If it starts, then should try what happens if disconnect the jumper.
AND..if it does not want to fire up, do not insist. Starting for long periods without firing will flood the cylinders and fuel will seep to the oil pan........I know it by experience and not proud of it....I could have taken the oil that I removed and use it directly as fuel for the chain saw! But I poured it in the heating oil tank and it went happily as heat for the house..

ok i have no 1 sec. pump run at key on and i checked wire from relay to computer and relay to pump all good .so it sounds like the computer but would like to check crank sender any way could you let me know what i need to do to check it?

with out trying to start it

..the crank sensor is not involved in the initial 1 sec burst . 'll check the diagrams to see if some supply to the ECM might be involved...in fact, ground connections, since we need a sink to ground.
I understand you have checked the continuity from computer to relay and found it OK.
BUt....did you try starting the car with the fuel pump "jumped" to run? THis would single out the problem to unique cause if it started.
NOtice that I had a very similar problem with a 1989 Taurus (the hell with it &|$%?* - and I'm polite - tell any problem, it had it) and it turned out the 12v feed to the computer was missing...corroded wire ! I'd pay a visit to the 12V pin that feeds 12V to the ECM
Load that file
www.geocities.com/lmp4203/kiasport/Injection.PDF
ECU Checks:
battery voltage on ECU pin 26: check fuse condition
6 28 34 55 are solid grounds
5 volt at pin 59

No procedure found for formal CKS check. If ECU is faulty or not fed 12 V, a lot of other things will not function, including supply to crank/cam sensors. I'd check to see spark at a spark plug but given where they are, I'd give up at least until absolutely necessary.
For time being, getting that fuelpump to operate is mandatory. At this point, I'd start looking for a salvage ECU for a quick swap test.

ok thanks for every thing i will have to leave it alone for a couple of days but will let you know what i find

Ok I went out and messed with it a little more and tried to start it while by passing the relay and at first it didn’t want to start but then it did and ran well even with out the bypass. I shut it off and on two or three times and it would not start again. I never did get the 1 sec. start from the computer though

OK this means the ignition system works OK. So the computer refuses to fire the pump: strange.
Computer fires the pump in 3 ways: first, on "ignition ON" (computer must receive and process this information), computer fires pump one second (should).
WHen cranking, timing pulses or even starting position (not sure which) tells pump to fire continually.
Once the engine fires up, then sometimes oil pressure , either directly through an auxiliary mechanical switch, or with the information fed to the computer, maintains the pump ON. Or it can come from information from ignition system.
We now know 3rd item works, but not the first 2.....
I would look for some scrapward to let me try another ECM: just go with the ECM readily accessible then unplug and plug the other for a test: this would clear the situation. The missing 1 sec pulse is my main concern.
I guess you have gone through this, but recently, on another car forum, someone had indeed a weird starting problems, with injectors playing almost some kind of rythmic music. I suggested disconnecting the battery for a few minutes and then reconnect so the ECM reinitializes itself anew....and it solved the problem.

ok took it to a pro today will let every one know what i find out

it's a corroded connection, I have the exact same problem...just replace the cables from the battery and you should be fine.