fram

whats the big problem with their oil filters?

http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/oil_filter_study/


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

Fram oil and air filters are by far the best damn filters I have ran across, and believe in 100% and refuse to use anything else, and I have owned over 25 different vehicles and have tried just about every brand of filters on the market.

Fram oil and air filters are by far the best damn filters I have ran across, and believe in 100% and refuse to use anything else, and I have owned over 25 different vehicles and have tried just about every brand of filters on the market.

I hope that you are joking. Fram is the cheapest piece of shit that you can buy. All the internal parts of FRAM filters are made of cardboard, all other filter companies use metal. FRAM has a pathetic anti-drainback valve, the valve doesn't work and allows the oil to drain out of the top of the motor when you shut it off. This means that everytime you start your engine while using a FRAM, it dry starts. The dry start causes excessive engine wear and premature failure, this is also why engines using fram make alot noise when they are first started. If you want a good filter get a NAPA GOLD, WIX, or AC Delco.

No, I am not joking. As far as excessive engine wear, increased noise when started, and dry goes, I have never had a vehicle dry start with Fram Products, and have never had increased noise. However I have had greater performance every time over any other brand. When I do my oil changes, I now use nothing except Valvoline Max-Life 10w30 oil with a Fram oil filter, and same with air filters, nothing except Fram. Now of course everyone has their own opinions, but mine is over most common brands that people put in their vehicle, Fram is the best. However everyone has their own opinion on their vehicles, and theres no reason to argue w/ someone over the type of products they use.

You are right, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and you can do what ever you want to your engine. (good or bad).


However, you have posted some erroneous information and I want to make it clear to anyone reading this that FRAM has been proven to be a poor choice time and time again. It is not a mere opinion that Fram filters are poorly designed and constructed of cheap materials, it is a fact. It is also a fact that Fram filters cause excessive wear at start-up and lead to premature engine failure.

http://oilfilterstudy.com/ (http://oilfilterstudy.com/)
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html (http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html)

You have only provided 2 sources of people saying or showing with anything that they are a poor choice. In my opinion 2 sources that say they're a bad choice is far from being proven. If 2 people saying something is bad equals a fact, than alot of things would be a fact, including that Quik Trips and Casey's fuel causes engine failure and that Huck's Fuel increases mpg and performance (because I know several shops that have had multiple vehicles with bad fuel from QT's or Casey's) however that doesnt mean its a proven fact. So saying its a fact and not opinion that Fram filters are bad and cause premature engine failure is just plain wrong. Hell for that fact I have talked to several people that say all GM products, especially Blazers and Jimmy's are nothing but crap and shouldnt have ever been made, however thats there opinion. Several people saying or even so called testing the products isnt a fact.

I only posted two links, two more links have already been posted. If you don't believe them cut open a fram, it is a fact that it is made of cardboard. If you don't believe Frams cause dry starts go to the blazer forum and see how many people have had their noisy startup problems fixed by changing to a different brand. Better yet start a thread over there and have people tell you their experiences. Not only is it a fact, but it is also common knowledge that dry starts cause excessive engine wear. It is also a fact and common knowledge that excessive engine wear leads to premature failure. What part are you not understanding? what part of that is not a fact?

Yes I agree fully that it is a proven fact that dry starts will cause excessive engine wear and will lead in to engine failure. What I am not considering a fact is that Fram will cause dry starts. I could be wrong however, isnt true that if a Fram oil filter causes dry starts that it would cause it in all of the vehicles, just not a handful of them. I find it hard to believe that it will cause dry starts in all Blazers and Jimmy's or most of them, but yet out of the 85 and 89 Blazers I owned along with the 94 Jimmy I own now, along other 20+ vehicles I have seen fram in, havent ever caused a dry start not even once in all of them.

It isn't restricted to only a few, they cause everyone problems. I believe what has happened in your case, is that you have become used to the sound of lifters tapping and valves rattling at startup. With a quality filter, you will hear no noise at startup. There is no way that you can use Fram as much as you have without experiencing problems.


Here is the last guy that had problems with fram in the blazer forum, read page 3 too, he had no more problems after switching:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=403052&page=2&pp=40&highlight=fram (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=403052&page=2&pp=40&highlight=fram)


Do a search for fram on this site, there are thousands of posts here about it. These guys are obsessed with oil and extremely knowledgeable. You will see hundreds of opinions here, based on their knowledge. This site is the biggest collection of oil related info on the net:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi (http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi)?

Here's one that I found rather quickly:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002608#000000 (http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002608#000000)


I should also add that Penzoil and Quaker State are also Fram filters.

I used to use Fram Filters. On two oil changes on an old and since sold Taurus wagon the filter was completely dry. The first time it happened I thought how odd. The second time it happened I swore off Fram. MHO.

I am not going to say that Fram filters havent caused anyone a problem, and everyone is entitled to use what they want on their vehicles. I myself though have never had a problem with their filters. As far as the comment that I must have had problems and have just gotten use to noisy valves and lifters tapping at start up, that is completely wrong. My vehicle starts up like a brand new vehicle and does not have a noisy start up at all. If anyone is in doubt of that, please feel free to email me, and I will give you my address, and you are more than welcome to come by my house, and listen to it start up and run, and you will see that I do not have a noisy start up. Thats all I have to say.

There are alot of wanna-be's spouting the same anti Fram message. What they call "cardboard" is a heavy fibrous material that forms the end caps and seals the ends of the filter element. This is similar material to many of the gaskets in your engine, so if it is really a problem, you better rebuild your whole engine and don't use any "cardboard" gaskets. Good Luck with that. The end caps of all filters are glued to the ends of the filter media. The media most commonly used is paper. Paper glued to "cardboard" can make a better seal as the glue can penetrate the cardboard. Paper glued to metal is more prone failure and creating a bypass leak. If you don't want to use Fram, that's fine with me, but don't go out bashing them just because some other internet idiot puts up a website to promote his own agenda.

You may want to edit your post....your ignorance is showing.

There are alot of wanna-be's spouting the same anti Fram message. What they call "cardboard" is a heavy fibrous material that forms the end caps and seals the ends of the filter element. This is similar material to many of the gaskets in your engine, so if it is really a problem, you better rebuild your whole engine and don't use any "cardboard" gaskets. Good Luck with that. The end caps of all filters are glued to the ends of the filter media. The media most commonly used is paper. Paper glued to "cardboard" can make a better seal as the glue can penetrate the cardboard. Paper glued to metal is more prone failure and creating a bypass leak. If you don't want to use Fram, that's fine with me, but don't go out bashing them just because some other internet idiot puts up a website to promote his own agenda.

Good god, would you just listen to what you are talking about!!!

Heavy "fibrous" material IS cardboard!

This is what a proper oil filter is supposed to look like.

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/purepp-b.jpg

And this is a Fram oil filter which is the biggest piece of shit filter in the world.

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/frameg-b.jpg

So you really think that there is nothing wrong with a Fram oil filter right? Well, YOU ARE WRONG.

You obviously haven't heard them being deemed as the "orange can of doom" do you?

You obviously haven't heard of the knocking dry startups they cause on most GM vehicles seeing their cardboard endcaps can't seal against the rubber Anti-drainback valve seeing the cardboard warps with heat and no seal can be made.

You obviously don't see that they have the worse flow, the worse filtration and the worst contaminant capacity of any filter on the market bar none. The flow is so bad that there is often over a 20psi drop in oil pressure after the filter seeing is is so horribly restrictive.

http://www.lesabret.com/filters/fail1b.jpg

That is a fram failure. Doesn't look pretty does it...........

So before you think Fram is some sort of fine name brand, you are right, the NAME is fine, the PRODUCT is shit.

I have done 100s of hours of research on this filter and others and until you do the same, stop spouting your ignorant and completely OPINION based crap here.

You don't know a thing about what you are talking about and it shows.

OMG, it is Fram, they are a good name because they advertise on NASCAR! That means they have to be good.

Be different, don't be the brainwashed fool to back a POS junk product.

Better to be one in a million and knowledgeable, than one OF a million and unknowing.

^^^^ :iceslolan

Yeah, what he said. :flipa:.

:lol:

Cardboard - a material made from cellulose fiber (as wood pulp) like paper but usually thicker.

I believe you are confusing it with "corrugated cardboard"

Good god, would you just listen to what you are talking about!!!

Heavy "fibrous" material IS cardboard!

This is what a proper oil filter is supposed to look like.

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/purepp-b.jpg

And this is a Fram oil filter which is the biggest piece of shit filter in the world.

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/frameg-b.jpg

So you really think that there is nothing wrong with a Fram oil filter right? Well, YOU ARE WRONG.

You obviously haven't heard them being deemed as the "orange can of doom" do you?

You obviously haven't heard of the knocking dry startups they cause on most GM vehicles seeing their cardboard endcaps can't seal against the rubber Anti-drainback valve seeing the cardboard warps with heat and no seal can be made.

You obviously don't see that they have the worse flow, the worse filtration and the worst contaminant capacity of any filter on the market bar none. The flow is so bad that there is often over a 20psi drop in oil pressure after the filter seeing is is so horribly restrictive.

http://www.lesabret.com/filters/fail1b.jpg

That is a fram failure. Doesn't look pretty does it...........

So before you think Fram is some sort of fine name brand, you are right, the NAME is fine, the PRODUCT is shit.

I have done 100s of hours of research on this filter and others and until you do the same, stop spouting your ignorant and completely OPINION based crap here.

You don't know a thing about what you are talking about and it shows.

OMG, it is Fram, they are a good name because they advertise on NASCAR! That means they have to be good.

Be different, don't be the brainwashed fool to back a POS junk product.

Better to be one in a million and knowledgeable, than one OF a million and unknowing.


IF ALL OF YOU ANTI-FRAM PEOPLE OUT THERE are so positive of yourselves, than please email me at [email protected] and ask for my street address as I want you to come by and listen to not only my Jimmy but also my parents Taurus start and run, and both of them start and run like brand new. If you are so sure of yourselves that they are crap and that all vehicles have noisy start ups and lifters tapping and all, than please come by my house and listen to both vehicles here and than try telling me that.

IF ALL OF YOU ANTI-FRAM PEOPLE OUT THERE are so positive of yourselves, than please email me at [email protected] and ask for my street address as I want you to come by and listen to not only my Jimmy but also my parents Taurus start and run, and both of them start and run like brand new. If you are so sure of yourselves that they are crap and that all vehicles have noisy start ups and lifters tapping and all, than please come by my house and listen to both vehicles here and than try telling me that.

You are honestly one thick brick aren't you......

We show you websites showing you the concern... you argue they have no merit.....

We show you pictures of the faulty and flawed construction....you argue that they have no merit....

We show you failures....you argue they have no merit....

I know I represent the "educated" bunch when I say GO AHEAD, CONTINUE TO USE THEM.

Ok, so you have no startup knock..... so be it.

But do you deny everything else that is proven about these filters?

The poor filtration, flow restriction and the ability to collapse on itself and completely fail?

Do some reading and research BEFORE you argue for junk.....

You are just making yourself out to be more foolish by the second....

Here is some reading...

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=6

Search for FRAM...

Then learn something will you instead of arguing about something you have no clue about.

I am not saying that no one has had the filters to fail, and that they havent caused other people problems. All I am saying is that out of the past 4+ years I have used nothing but Fram on multiple types of vehicles and have yet to have them fail in anyway, shape, or form. Also I know well over 10 people that uses nothing but Fram theirselves and have never had a single problem, and 2 of those people are certified ASE mechanics and actually run a well respected shop in my area. I have a very hard time believing that Fram filters causes everyone problems and no one except myself and those others I know problems, and that we are the only ones around that have ever used Fram and not had a problem with them. As far as them failing, and being crap, for other people they have fave failed, I can not say, but for myself and the other people I know personally that uses Fram, they HAVE NOT. The only thing I can think of, is Fram Failures depend on the type of oil you run, and that since myself and the others I know personally use the same type of oil, Valvoline Maxlife, the only thing I can think of that would cause them to fail for alot of other people, but not all the people I know or myself is that they were using a type of oil that caused the Fram filters to fail.

No, it is not the oil.

How do you not know it didn't fail, have you ever opened one up?

Wouldn't you want a properly made filter instead of backing your lack of knowledge with ignorance.

I could care less what your friends use. They don't know like most people on the market.

Get informed, get using a better oil filter and protect your vehicle the best way you can.

If you want to run crap filters when you can get a much better filter for the same price, be my guest.

But don't sit here arguing that because your engine has not blown up that the filter is perfectly fine BECAUSE IT ISN'T!

Guess it is up to the people who want the best filtering for their truck and who doesn't give a shit.

No, it is not the oil.

How do you not know it didn't fail, have you ever opened one up?

Wouldn't you want a properly made filter instead of backing your lack of knowledge with ignorance.

I could care less what your friends use. They don't know like most people on the market.

Get informed, get using a better oil filter and protect your vehicle the best way you can.

If you want to run crap filters when you can get a much better filter for the same price, be my guest.

But don't sit here arguing that because your engine has not blown up that the filter is perfectly fine BECAUSE IT ISN'T!

Guess it is up to the people who want the best filtering for their truck and who doesn't give a shit.


Well all of you guys are so positive of yourselves that all Fram Filters fail, and all filters not made by Fram doesnt fail, I am assuming that you or one of the other people in this here thread has cut open every used oil filter there is, not only your own but everyones and that every Fram filter failed, while no other ones haved. It is impossible for me to say that every Fram filter hasnt failed, just like it is impossible for you or anyone else to say that they always fail. Maybe I'll just have to cut my oil filter open once I change my oil again(Fram Filter) than instead of putting another Fram filter on, use a different brand, and than once I change the oil again cut that filter open, and see for myself that the Fram filter did not fail, and post the pics that way I can be just like everyone else and instead of saying that they fail, I can say its a fact that Fram filters are good, since theres pictures to prove it did not fail. I am sure glad that pictures some people, and a couple pictures of it failing is enough to say that all Fram oil filters fail. I think maybe all of you guys need to go back to school just to learn what the hell the difference is between opinion and facts.

Well all of you guys are so positive of yourselves that all Fram Filters fail, and all filters not made by Fram doesnt fail, I am assuming that you or one of the other people in this here thread has cut open every used oil filter there is, not only your own but everyones and that every Fram filter failed, while no other ones haved. It is impossible for me to say that every Fram filter hasnt failed, just like it is impossible for you or anyone else to say that they always fail. Maybe I'll just have to cut my oil filter open once I change my oil again(Fram Filter) than instead of putting another Fram filter on, use a different brand, and than once I change the oil again cut that filter open, and see for myself that the Fram filter did not fail, and post the pics that way I can be just like everyone else and instead of saying that they fail, I can say its a fact that Fram filters are good, since theres pictures to prove it did not fail. I am sure glad that pictures some people, and a couple pictures of it failing is enough to say that all Fram oil filters fail. I think maybe all of you guys need to go back to school just to learn what the hell the difference is between opinion and facts.

WAKE UP!

We are not saying that everyone fails!!!!!!! Jesus!

We are saying that their inferior construction leads to more fails than any other filter on the market.

Add the fact in that:

A.) They don't filter well.

B.) They don't Flow well.

C.) They aren't built well.

D.) Poor sealing of the Anti Drainback valve.

E.) Less filter media than any other filter on the market.

F.) Practically the same price as well built filters.

And here you are arguing here against it. You can't argue against proven fact and doing so makes you look incredibly ridiculous. Fram oil filters are complete junk. Actually, there are cheaper oil filters out there that are better filters than the low end Fram.

You are being completely pig headed and you are basing your whole arguement off of failing. It is true they fail because I saw one blow off of a Mustang when the internal filter media collapsed.

But ignoring the fact that they are poorly made just to make the excuse for using them is just plain out retarded and your lack of open-minded thinking about this is appalling.

Don't you think you would want the best for your truck?

Can you argue about the poor filtering and the pressure drop due to poor flow? Throw away the filter failing arguement because of course they don't all fail.

How about explaining how the rest of the problems are "OK" for me.

This should be good.

WAKE UP!
Add the fact in that:
A.) They don't filter well.
B.) They don't Flow well.
C.) They aren't built well.
D.) Poor sealing of the Anti Drainback valve.
E.) Less filter media than any other filter on the market.
F.) Practically the same price as well built filters.
This should be good.

Maybee it's a canadian thing to misunderstand the meanings of the words FACT and OPINION. The items that you list as A.B.C.D.E.F. ARE ALL YOUR OPINIONS. They are not factual statements. You are entitled to you opinion, and so is everyone else. If there is a rule on this forum that you must hate Fram and love K&N and love autoRX snake oil, then please post that on the top of the page. Otherwise, please learn the difference between facts and opinions. Also would be educational for you to look up the definition of MODERATOR. You appear to be more of an instigator than a moderator, but that's my opinion and maybe it's not a fact.

Oh really? Let's tabulate up the numbers to distinguish FACT from OPINION.

Let's compare a $2.99 Extra Guard to a $2.99 Purolator Premium Plus.

All number were derived from independent and unbiased testing through http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/.

If you argue that they are not legit, proove me wrong.

A.) They don't filter well.

Fram:

Average largest pore size: 50 µm
Smallest pore size: 17 µm

Purolator:

Average largest pore size: 57 µm
Smallest pore size: 22 µm

This is where I was slightly wrong, the difference is minimal but I did make a mistake and I will admit to it.

But as you will see farther on, who really cares if it filters well when it doesn't have any filter media when compared to a normal filter it will plug up that much faster.

Verdict: OPINION (But not anymore)

B.) They don't Flow well.

Fram ExtraGuard Flow: 30W 70F Oil flow @ 10psi: 4.5 oz per minute
Purolator Filter Flow: 30W 70F Oil flow @ 10psi: 17.2 oz per minute

That's right, the purolator for the same price flows almost 4X more oil than the Fram.

VERDICT: FACT

C.) They aren't built well.

Fram ExtraGuard

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/frameg-b.jpg

Purolator Filter

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/purepp-b.jpg

Need I say more?? If you think that the Fram is built as well as the Pirolator in this example, you have another thing coming and you need to go to an eye doctor.

VERDICT: FACT

D.) Poor sealing of the Anti Drainback valve.

With reference to the above photos, the Fram Extra guard is one of the worst culprits in the war against startup knock. Many vehicles that have a startup dry knock can have there top end drained of oil during sitting due to the cardboard endcaps warping under heat and pressure, and not allowing the nitrile ADBV to completely seal and therefore allowing the oil that should be in the top end to travel back down into the oil pan where it does not good.

80% of engine wear happens at startup and everything you can do to limit that will add years to your engine.

The purolator has the same nitrile Anti-Drainback valve but is sealed against a solid metal end caps. Metal endcaps do not warp or change there shape while under the heat and pressure from a nrmal engine.

VERDICT: FACT

E.) Less filter media than any other filter on the market.

Fram ExtraGuard Filter area: 183 sq/in; 36 pleats
Purolator Filter area: 345 sq/in; 64 pleats

That's right, half the filter medium Which means they will plug up twice as fast than the other filter.

Verdict: FACT

F.) Practically the same price as well built filters.

Fram ExtraGuard $2.99
Purolator Filter $2.99

Verdict: FACT

Prices are the same.

So there you have it, all the proof is on the table for all to see and other than the filtering mistake I made, it is all FACT.

So herkyhawki, before you bring to your knife to a gun battle, know who you are up against.

Verdict: OWNED

fact Knowledge or information based on real occurrences.

o·pin·ion A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof


Which statements about FRAM are opinions and not facts?
Do you deny that they are poorly made?
Do you deny that they flow so poorly, in some instances they have been known to immediately trigger the by-pass valve?
Do you deny that the anti-drainback valve leaks?
Do you deny that dry starts are bad for your engine?

If you deny all these things.......how many times must something be proven before it becomes a fact?

Everything posted above has been proven to be true numerous times. It has been documented, making the above statements "based on real occurrences". According to the definition of "fact", this makes the above statements facts.

Please show me one of the pro FRAM statements above that has been proven. Can you name one that is based on real documented occurrences? I have seen nothing more than your beliefs, beliefs that aren't backed by "positive knowledge or proof", which makes them nothing more than baseless opinions.



Your views on FRAM can be summed into one word: delusions
"Delusions - false beliefs that are persistent and organized, and that do not go away after receiving logical or accurate information."

"Delusions - false beliefs that are persistent and organized, and that do not go away after receiving logical or accurate information."

My lord, that word fixes this situation like a glove.

http://www.fram.com/tech/FluidFilterRating.pdf

And this is for what?

All filters pass the multi-pass filtration test.

This proves nothing........

Any other info other than what Fram tells you?

You seemed so sure that all I was doing before was stated my blantent opinion and all my point were incorrect.

Why are you not saying I am wrong again?

what?
Why are you not saying I am wrong again?

There's no reason to restate the obvious.

There's no reason to restate the obvious.

:lol:

Don't know when to quit do you? You just won't admit when you are wrong. It is a sign of immaturity, you'll grow out of it after you hit 18.

Even when you are faced with fact and proven numbers your delusional skull still puts up a meaningless fight.

Sign of a person who calls someone out, and then gets properly OWNED beyond belief......

Welp, everyone learned something from this thread.

A.) Know what you are talking about when you start a debate.
B.) Don't call out knowledgable people when you don't know what you are talking about yourself.
C.) Know when you are wrong and admit it.
D.) When what you thought was true is proven to be NOT, don't babble on with meaningless replies and link to unrelated webpages.

thread's dead Zed.....