89 park avenue problems

I have a 89 park avenue with the 3800 3.8 liter........I have a few things wrong with this car that i need help on.First thing that happened was that i noticed the IAC was pulsating after the ignition was turned off.I replaced the IAC but it still continued to pulse.If i remove the positive cable to the battery the pulsing stops and it doesnt drain the battery.So i did that for a long time and no problems but later on when winter time came and we have cold and damp nights the car doesnt want to start unless i pump the gas and even then it takes a while to start.If the temperature outside is above 40 degrees it starts pretty good.The other day it was cold and damp and i went to start the car and it wouldnt and of course drained my battery after a while.I put the battery on a charge and went back to start it and now NOTHING happens.Wont turn over at all.I know the battery has plenty of power but nothing cranks over.I did run codes on my car onetime at a friends and the code 41 came up.The car runs great most the time but does stall and idle rough sometimes.ANY HELP would be so greatly appreciated.I dont know if i should start with changing the ECM...or the other ton of sensors and relays it could be.Thanks for whoever can help me.

If nothing happens and the battery is known good, check and clean the corrosion buildup on the battery cables. Heavy corrosion has been known to cause skipping idles and starting failures.

Code 41: Cam Sensor or timing chain fault

This problem tells you there is no spark at the plugs. Good reason for the car not starting.
The pre-ODBII codes( 80-95) are listed at: (and the procedure to get them yourself):
http://www.geocities.com/dann8785/serviceenginesoon.html

Thanks for the reply......i know there is no corrosion on the battery cables...they are clean as a whistle.I checked today the wires going to the starter and they are fine also.What makes it so weird is the car was having problems with the idle and everything, but right after the battery went dead on me trying to crank the car for so long and suddenly when i turn the ignition i get nothing.I get lights on in the car and all electric options work just no cranking of the starter.Just a headache ya know.Thanks for any more help ya can give me.

Just a thought.
Do you have a flashing "Security" light going on after you insert the key into the ignition? The security system would disable the starting system when it fails to recognize the key (i.e. read the special chip in the key).

No Yogi i dont have any sercurity alarm on my car.I think my electrical system is screwed.Even the fasten seatbelt light stays on sometimes all the time.I hear a clicking noise when i turn the key to start it under the dash around where the relays are.Dont know if that is normal or not.

I have an 89 PA with the identical IAC pulsing problem. I addressed this issue in a previous post titled "89PA, IAC pulses with ignition off!" dated 10-05-2004. I went through the entire system and cleaned the IAC and all of the grounds and electrical connectors that could be related, but I still have not resolved the problem. I removed and inspected the ECM, but I stopped short of replacing the ECM. I suspect the ECM is source of the IAC pulsing problem, but I have not replaced it yet! I still occasionally have a semi-erratic idle and I also suspect the ECM is causing the erratic idle via the IAC circuit. The pulsing IAC and erratic idle is now only occurring occasionally, so I am just living with it at the moment. If it gets worse, I will probably try to find another ECM.

On a few rare occasions I have also had problems getting the engine started. It cranked fine but would not light-off. In each of these cases all I did was partially open the throttle and it started fine, and after a few seconds the idle speed would pick-up/increase and it would idle normally. I suspect these starting problems were also related to the ECM's control of the IAC. I think initially the IAC was probably completely closed during cranking, but after the engine started (by holding the throttle partially open) the ECM would drive the IAC open (after a few seconds delay), and the engine would then idle normally.

I am anxious to know if replacing the ECM corrects your IAC and starting problem. Please give me some feedback on what you discover/find!

Thanks RKSK for the input.....kinda weird we have the same problems and its the same year park avenue.I am thinking its gotta be the ECM that is causing all the problems.What else can it be besides that.Sometimes my engine runs so smooth and i never wanna get rid of the car cause it runs so good sometimes.I want to eventually change the ECM but the location of it makes it so hard to get to and change.First i gotta get this problems fixed with the car not even turning over at all.I am thinking maybe a relay for the ECM.I will let you know if i do change the ECM and you do the same.Whichever of us gets to it before the other....LOL.

Thanks RKSK for the input.....kinda weird we have the same problems and its the same year park avenue.I am thinking its gotta be the ECM that is causing all the problems.What else can it be besides that.Sometimes my engine runs so smooth and i never wanna get rid of the car cause it runs so good sometimes.I want to eventually change the ECM but the location of it makes it so hard to get to and change.First i gotta get this problems fixed with the car not even turning over at all.I am thinking maybe a relay for the ECM.I will let you know if i do change the ECM and you do the same.Whichever of us gets to it before the other....LOL.

do you hear clicking noise at the starter motor when you attempt to start it, if not, that means you're not energizing the starter solenoid, this small wire gets 12 volt during cranking, but it is interlocked with the tps(transaxle position switch, car must be in park or neutral, try neutral)) this switch sits on the shifter shaft of the tranny, it also transmits the selected position data to the receiver of the electronic dash to display the selected position (PRNDd21) try applying 12v directly to this wire at a point past this switch or at the starter, it should crank, as for the iac it is ecm controlled, ecm has quad drivers these transistors that provide grounds to activate certain devices such iac, and relays that control things like cooling fans.

sam

Thanks Sam for the input about my problem....I took your advice and went directly to the selenoid and tried to jump the starter off.I get sparks when i do it but the starter doesnt crank at all!Does this mean the selenoid is my problem?If it is the selenoid then is it attached to the starter or can just the selenoid be replaced?I guess if i get the cranking problem fixed and then replace my ECM all will be well right?Any help is greatly appreciated....thanks again Sam!

I have a 89 park avenue with the 3800 3.8 liter........I have a few things wrong with this car that i need help on.First thing that happened was that i noticed the IAC was pulsating after the ignition was turned off.I replaced the IAC but it still continued to pulse.If i remove the positive cable to the battery the pulsing stops and it doesnt drain the battery.So i did that for a long time and no problems but later on when winter time came and we have cold and damp nights the car doesnt want to start unless i pump the gas and even then it takes a while to start.If the temperature outside is above 40 degrees it starts pretty good.The other day it was cold and damp and i went to start the car and it wouldnt and of course drained my battery after a while.I put the battery on a charge and went back to start it and now NOTHING happens.Wont turn over at all.I know the battery has plenty of power but nothing cranks over.I did run codes on my car onetime at a friends and the code 41 came up.The car runs great most the time but does stall and idle rough sometimes.ANY HELP would be so greatly appreciated.I dont know if i should start with changing the ECM...or the other ton of sensors and relays it could be.Thanks for whoever can help me.


You should check the EMC fuse make sure its good

thanks shiftgrl.....if you mean the fuse in the regular fuse panel it is good i checked every fuse in that and the relay matrix under the dashboard behind the glovebox.

Thanks Sam for the input about my problem....I took your advice and went directly to the selenoid and tried to jump the starter off.I get sparks when i do it but the starter doesnt crank at all!Does this mean the selenoid is my problem?If it is the selenoid then is it attached to the starter or can just the selenoid be replaced?I guess if i get the cranking problem fixed and then replace my ECM all will be well right?Any help is greatly appreciated....thanks again Sam!

Jeff, you did not indicate if you heard a loud click or simply saw a spark, here's what I'll do.

1) I'd disconnect that small wire at the starter solenoid, just in case it is shorted to ground somewhere before,
2) apply 12 volt to the position (screw on the solenoid) if all is well you should see cranking and if your ignition key was in the on position, the car should start, of course assuming all else is ok, but at least you should hear a loud click.

If no click the solenoid is defective, but if you hear a lound click but no cranking, then it could be the plunger, is worn, a common problem, this is where electric current is fed to the starter motor, 200 amps, it tends to wear out the contact surfaces, however to prove that is the problem you can use the shaft of normal size screwdriver to jumper the 2 heavy gauge contacts on the starter, one of them is the direct feed from the battery and the other is the feed to the starter motor from solenoid, although I am not sure if the latter lead is accessible, on some makes it is. keep in mind the plunger may have welded itself in place(mechanics tap gently with a hammer to release the plunger, or to have it rotate so contact can be established as a temp.fix)as a result of excessive heat, so if you're sure about the health of the battery, you can assume you have a starter motor related trouble, not a hard job to replace.
good luck.



sam

Thanks Sam for the help.......no i never did hear a clicking noise when i turned the key.....i will try what you said about the selanoid and see if that works.Let you know soon what happened....thanks again sam

Thanks Sam for the help.......no i never did hear a clicking noise when i turned the key.....i will try what you said about the selanoid and see if that works.Let you know soon what happened....thanks again sam

So, Jeff just keep in mind the starter motor is just another electrical motor, at this point where you're working at, it has nothing to do with the ECM, only the motor with its built-in solenoid and the battery and its connection, the ground is supplied by the chasis.the starter is totally independant of other electronic control, so once you get it behaving (cranking) the way it is supposed to, odds are you'd be home free.on one occasion I had to start my car by touching the solenoid small lead to the battery lead next to it with the key on of course.( I had a starter immobolizer that was not working correctly).

And if you find you need to replace the starter, pay little attention to the shim plate they sometime have between the starter and the block it looks like a fork, you may/not need it back as all starters are not equal, the shim plate is needed to illiminate starter motor drag after start up, more on that later.

sam

Thanks Sam for the advice......yeah i know i have two seperate problems.......one with the no cranking and the other with the ECM and the IAC pulse with ignition off.If you could answer a question though i have is the selonoid and the starter seperate?In other words i tried jumping the starter off by the terminal end of the solenoid and it still doesnt crank with the key on.Is the solenoid seperate from the starter or do i have to purchase a starter with a solenoid attached?Or can the solenoid which i am assuming is bad be purchased seperatly and just that part changed out?Once i get the car cranked i will work my ECM problem and hopefully have my lovely park avenue on the road again.Thanks again for all your help!
Jeff

Thanks Sam for the advice......yeah i know i have two seperate problems.......one with the no cranking and the other with the ECM and the IAC pulse with ignition off.If you could answer a question though i have is the selonoid and the starter seperate?In other words i tried jumping the starter off by the terminal end of the solenoid and it still doesnt crank with the key on.Is the solenoid seperate from the starter or do i have to purchase a starter with a solenoid attached?Or can the solenoid which i am assuming is bad be purchased seperatly and just that part changed out?Once i get the car cranked i will work my ECM problem and hopefully have my lovely park avenue on the road again.Thanks again for all your help!
Jeff
Both the starter motor and solenoid are sold as 1 unit. it is mostly the solenoid portion that goes bad, the plunger and/or the contacts get pitted and wear out from all the arcing as it delivers the heavy amperage to the motor.
sam

ps: it the starter unit is ok, it will always crank by jumpering that small lead to a good +12v, however it will only start if the ignition (key) is on and all is well with the rest of the system, u know ecm and sensors etc etc.However make sure vehicle is in Park when u attempt to crank it this way, VERY IMPORTANT..IF NOT CAR WILL MOVE AND MAY TAKE OFF ON YOU IF IT STARTS. ALWAYS SAFETY FIRST.