TPI swap - idling problems

I pulled a TPI setup out of a non-running '86 Iroc 305. I put it into my 91 RS (also with a 305). After installing it and changing the fuel pump, I had to run direct power to the pump (not knowing which wires to connect), and a jumper wire from the ignition to the starter solenoid. The car would start, but it ran very rich, and it would barely idle. If I gave it throttle, it ran real smooth, but as soon as I backed off, it wanted to die. I replaced the IAC and TPS, with no effect. I ordered a wiring harness from Painless Wiring, and now I know which wires to run for the fuel pump power, but with everything connected it will not crank over, and the fuel pump does not come on. I am leaning towards the computer being bad, and I am going to replace it tomorrow. If anyone has any experience with such a problem, or any suggestions, I would really appreciate it!

Chuck

i don't believe that the pcm from a 305 tbi will work with a tpi setup, the pcm is located above the passenger side footwell, i'm pretty sure ur gonna need to get one from a tpi car to make it work... i'm not sure why ur fuel pump isn't comin on, and i don't know why it won't crank... are u sure u don't have a battery problem?

i appreciate the suggestion, but I pulled the ECM out of the '86 and put it in the '91. Power isn't the problem, there are 12 volts at the starter, but the ECM isn't sending power to the soleniod...

damn, hmm that's a brain teaser... is ur ignition switch good?

When you replaced the IAC did you reset minimum air and then set the TPS?
I assume you are using the ECM from the TPI along with the calpack, otherwise you'd get a check engine light right away.
Your cranking problems may be coming from VATS, the 86 didn't have it but the 91 does. So, the prom can't recognize VATS and VATS won't engage the starter enable relay.
Also double check your fuel pump relay wiring, make sure there is 12 volts on the 10 ga wire, if there isn't the pump won't run even if the relay engages.
I have a wiring diagram for 91 firebirds, The engine wiring will be the same for Camaros. I can E mail it to you if you'd like.

morley... u know ur shit dude, wow i'm in awe

morley covered the major bases, but something else to concider is that the 91 system is a speed dencity system, where the 86 would be a MAF system if it were fuel injection based. So that could account for your fuel control problem. but its really late so i might be out in left feild here. morley wanna check me on this.

morley covered the major bases, but something else to concider is that the 91 system is a speed dencity system, where the 86 would be a MAF system if it were fuel injection based. So that could account for your fuel control problem. but its really late so i might be out in left feild here. morley wanna check me on this.

Well, he converted from 91 tBi to 86 tPi, so MAF vs MAP doesn't come into play, he (I'm sure) changed all of the sensors from the TBI over to the required TPI's.
There is another possibility. A friend at work has been doing some experimenting with an 86 calpack...and there in may lie your problem.
He has an 86 prom (calpack) that he was getting weird readings from when he tried to read it, so being a true experimentor...he installed it in his perfectly running 88 TPI IROC..it ran like total crap, tried to stall, shook like a junkie going through the DT's..
We've been brainstorming as to what might be going on and think we've hit upon an answer. I'll get with him tomorrow and see what he came up with over the weekend.

I put in a new ECM today, and I had to run a jumper wire from the ignition down to the soleniod, so now it cranks and the computer powers the fuel pump, it fires, but the timing seems to be off. (I had the distributer out and all the wires off) I don't think it is possible, but does anyone know if you can set the TPS without the car running?

I wish my friend that is an Expert on early GM fuel injection was a member here. I'm sure he could help with ANY TPI/TBI related questions. I'll ask him to join so he can share his wealth of knowledge on the subject for anyones questions. He's helped me with my problems and hasn't been wrong yet and he said he's 100% sure about all his info on the TPI setups (he swapped a TPI into his 86 elky).

William

I don't think it is possible, but does anyone know if you can set the TPS without the car running?
No, the only GM procedure for TPS setting is key on engine off.
Triple check your plug wire locations and distributor placement, this will cause a lot of what you are seeing.
IF..all of that is good there is a possibility that you got a hold of an early 86 TPI ecm & prom, the early proms (calpack) had a problem shared with the 85 prom chips. GM had them burned and then stored them (whereever) and didn't put the silver sticker over the UV erase window until they were ready to install them in the ECM. This exposed the PROM to light, one band of which is UV, and this started the eraseing process (VERY slowly) and once started it will not stop and slowly corrupts the information on the chip.

I appreciate the help guys. I pulled the cap back off and rotated the engine to TDC on cyl. 1. The distributer seems to be in the right place (rotor is facing cyl. 1 when I place the cap back on). I rechecked the plug wires and the firing order is ingrained in my head 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. If I rotate the dist. counter-clockways the engine has trouble turning over? and if I turn it too far clockways it won't fire at all. So I find a happy medium when it wants to start, but it doesn't want to keep going. I'm pretty sure that the fuel pressure is fine. (When I keep cranking it over I get a real strong gas smell. I have now replaced the computer, the pick-up coil, cap and rotor, wires, plugs, ignition coil, tested and the ignition module (it checks out fine). I don't think I would get it to fire if I was out 180, but I don't know. Thursday I'm going to put in another Electronic Spark Control module I have and see if that makes any difference. Any other ideas?

Chuck

Any other ideas?

Chuck
Do you know anyone that has an 87 or 88 TPI car? If so, see if you can borrow their Calpack and try it in your car. I am still leaning towards a bad prom/calpack.

BTW, it will "fire" if the dist is 180 out...fire right out the throttle body. You'll know if it is 180 out, but if it were off just 1 position on the rotor it would be hard to spot without doing what you did.

Don't get discouraged, you've done the hard part in getting it all swapped over and actually got to run, many have tried and failed and given up. Now you are just down to getting it to run "right".

Morley-
Your knowledge is greatly appreciated. Its nice to be able to get ideas from people who know something about TPI's. I'm wondering if you have any suggestions on who I should order a new prom/calpack from. I would prefer to have one programmed without the EGR, but I don't know if it's worth the cost. Should I just buy an aftermarket one from hypertech?

hmm, musta misunderstood the swap you were doing with the TPI.

but i also agree with morley that the Vats may be a problem that you circumnavigated by running direct power lines. I dont know if this would have a negitive effect on how the car ran though. Id have to look at my schematics that i dont have with me right now.

with the new system installed, have you run the car for codes???? just happen to think of this. could point you in the right direction.

Also, something to think about, are the wires going to your ICM (igntion control moduel) backwards? when working on my RS the plastic connector had broken off of the two wires that run from the distributor to the ICM so i had to guess which terminal they went on, well i got it backwards. the car ran, but it was not happy, the whole car was shaking it was spitting, i had the air cleaner off, and the car stalled and sprayed a two food tall mist of fuel back up and out of the throttle body. i switched the wires back around and it purred like a kitten. the symptoms you are describing sound a lot like what i was going through with my IROC when the ICM went bad. Its a cheap part, and i would suggest looking into that before buying a whole new ECM. www.gmpartsdirect.com has them for 47 bucks or something. takes about 4min to put it in.

also in regard to the timing issue, how many miles are on your 305? i know that my 350 is due for a timing chain replacement due to stretch and its making it nearly impossible to get the timing correct without setting it by vacume or ear. the markers are useless at this point. That could be contributing to your problem as well.

I'm wondering if you have any suggestions on who I should order a new prom/calpack from. I would prefer to have one programmed without the EGR, but I don't know if it's worth the cost. Should I just buy an aftermarket one from hypertech?
Firstly, stay away from aftermarket "performance" chips, they are way over priced and do nothing for you, in fact they can hurt performance.
Look here https://www.rockauto.com/applet3.html for your PROM, they cost $50-$60. You'd want to order one for a 1988 camaro because it has the better programming on it.
For a custom chip look here http://www.moates.net/index.php?cPath=25
You'd want the GP1 package, it costs $55. I can program the chips for it for the cost of shipping.
The kicker is, you really need to get a new calpack first (the GP1 piggybacks on the calpack) and get the car running "right" before going into a "custom" chip. Your calpack may be bad, not just the prom on it, but there are also 2 other chips on it (netres) that contain some basic programming for the engine.

the 305 has just over a 100,000 miles on it, I don't think it is the timing chain though, because the car ran like a top with the TBI on it.

Morley, you said that I need a new calpack first. I had assumed that ordering a new chip would be all-inclusive, guess not. I found the new prom at rockauto, but where do I go for a new calpack?

Morley, you said that I need a new calpack first. I had assumed that ordering a new chip would be all-inclusive, guess not. I found the new prom at rockauto, but where do I go for a new calpack?
Calpack & PROM are the same thing...kind of. 1986-1992 TPI's the PROM chip is hard mounted to the CALPACK, so they use the 2 names to mean the same thing.
The CALPACK actually consists of a PROM chip and 2 NETRES chips mounted in a holder that plugs into your ECM.
I'd hate for you to spend the $50 on a calpack that you may not need, it'd be better if you could borrow one from a friend to verify that as the problem.
If you want to hold off till next week, my friend and I are going to do a little experiment with an 86 CALPACK. We suspect the 86's were not like the 87 & 88 CALPACKs, and that the NETRES may be incompatable with other ECM's of the same part number. He has had 2 of them that exhibit strange behavior and we are trying to prove out our theory.

Morley-
So you do still think that a calpack from an '88 would work? Either way, I'll wait to order one until I hear back from you about your experiment...

thanks

Chuck

Morley-
So you do still think that a calpack from an '88 would work? Either way,
Yes, the 1988 used the $32b code, which was the best MAF code GM made for a cold start injector equipped TPI...The BEST MAF code was the $6E from 1989..but that requires some chip modding,
Also...the $32b code didn't have VATS, so that is still going to be a thorn in your side..where as the $6E did have VATS..either way you go you'll need a custom chip to over come problems. What is really in question is the NETRES array on your current calpack but in order to get a "better" one you have to buy a calpack.

I know where I have a 12v source coming off the ignition switch before it goes to the vats module or the clutch switch, besides the possibility of starting the car in gear, do you see any other problems with simply bypassing the clutch switch and the vats this way and running power from this 12v source to the solenoid? If this is ok, I would than get a prom for an 88, right?

I know where I have a 12v source coming off the ignition switch before it goes to the vats module or the clutch switch, besides the possibility of starting the car in gear, do you see any other problems with simply bypassing the clutch switch and the vats this way and running power from this 12v source to the solenoid? If this is ok, I would than get a prom for an 88, right?
Do a search on bypassing VATS, it will be better and safer than what you mentioned..just uses a resistor.
Yes, you'd want an 88 prom/calpack, that was the last year for the cold start injectors.

Experiment complete. The 86 prom doesn't run too well in my car but the NETRES seems to be fine. I ran an 86 calpack with my Moates adaptor (eliminates the stock prom on the calpack) and my custom prom (burn em myself) and the car fired right up and ran fine. My friend was having trouble getting his 88 to run on the 86 calpack so we eliminated the NETRES as the problem by using my adaptor.
You probably have either the wrong prom or a defective prom in there.

Open your computer and remove the calpack, next remove the blue cover on the calpack and look at the silver sticker on the prom chip (big chip). and post the 3 or 4 letter code on the sticker.

the silver sticker says:

AUM
0122
8291

Chuck

OK, that checks out as a 1986 BCC for an LB9 engine in camaro/firebird. So you do have the proper calpack for the application. It was released 09/17/1986, so it was well into the production year and not an "experimental" code.

Heh, what you need is a "custom" prom at this point. You need an 88 prom with VATS enabled and you'd be set.

finally got it runnin', and it purrs like a dream.

morley,

You said you can program a custom chip? I was thinking about ordering one from moates and having it sent to you...
I'll send you the money to ship it back, and something for the programming it you would like. Please let me know.

Chuck

finally got it runnin', and it purrs like a dream.

morley,

You said you can program a custom chip? I was thinking about ordering one from moates and having it sent to you...
I'll send you the money to ship it back, and something for the programming it you would like. Please let me know.

Chuck

Sure, I can do it.
Pray tell, what was the problem? Or more to the point..what was the fix?

P.S. you'll need to order the G1 adaptor/prom combo from Craig.

After installing the painless wiring harness, and fixing the vacuum leaks, it would start but would kill immediately. I found out that the ignition wire going to the ECM was only getting 12v when the key was turned forward, when it was just in the "on" position it had something like 8 or 9 volts, so as soon as I backed off the key the computer would shut off. But after a whole lot of frustration it runs great now.
In an earlier post you mentioned getting the GP1 package from moates. Is that the same as what you are referring to as the "G1 adaptor/prom combo from Craig". Who is Craig?

In an earlier post you mentioned getting the GP1 package from moates. Is that the same as what you are referring to as the "G1 adaptor/prom combo from Craig". Who is Craig?

Yes, the GP1 is the G1 adaptor packaged with 2 chips.
Craig is Craig Moates, the man that makes and sells the adaptors, along with a whole bunch of other F body engine tuning products. Super guy to deal with.

My email is [email protected], if you could send me your address, I'll have it shipped to you as soon as possible.

Chuck

Hi, I was wondering if this ecu and chip would help my 1988 camero v6?

88 Firebird Camaro TPI ECM PCM & Hypertech Power Chip. The camero is manual, Would that affect anything?