Z_Fan went down...

I was in a parking lot, turning the bike and closing my visor. I think I was going a bit fast on the idle speed and probably target fixated on this stop sign. So I pulled in the front brake, I guess pretty fast. The front tire locked, skidded for a second, and next thing I know, the bike low-sided on the left, and I’m on the ground. I managed to roll-away from the bike after it fell. So I wasn’t injured. When I braked, I think I might have been slightly trying to move it on the left side since stop sign was on the right, and there were a lot of gravels near the stop sign.

But this isn’t what made my day, it’s what happened right after that. I got out of the parking lot going for one more lap in this straight industrial road, I was going about 55mph in 5-6K rpm in 3rd gear. Since I was twisting the throttle gradually, it took a while to get to 55 mph, and I was thrilled being in that speed. So I think I was distracted while watching the speedo and tach. And suddenly I was approaching this tight curved, and there was another stop sign to indicate, two-way cross roads - right or left. My current level of skill would not permit to lean the bike at this speed to take a right or left turn, and there are cars traveling about, so I had to stop at the stop sign. At lower speeds, taking this curve was a breeze, but not at 55 mph. But I was already too hot, and I didn’t wanna brake hard again, so I was braking slowly and gradually, after disengaging the clutch. I forgot to downshift to 2nd to use engine braking. Anyway, again I was heading toward the stop sign, so I was leaning left and right everywhere and braking, and I was extremely scared of lowside/high side in speed or ramm into a car or go off to a ditch. Hairy situation. I felt the reduction of traction on the tires, the bike wiggled like crazy, and each tires wanted to go in different direction. Somehow I made it through, and right at the stop sign, I brake hard on the front lever, and braked right on time. My first high-speed (relative) ride could have ended in tragedy, . I practiced couple of weekends on throttle control and turning. It seems I have to spend a lot more time to get a feel for each brakes, and use maximum braking before they lock up. The rear brake is recently rebuilt with new brake pads, the front brake is grabby. Unlike others, it’s not the power or the balance of this bike I had problem with, but braking and preconscious target fixation.

I got a question, when you need to brake fast, do you just roll off the throttle and brake or also disengage the clutch as you’re braking?

Well to answer your question the best I can about your braking. It depends a lot on the situation. First are you just learning to ride? If so a MSF course would be ideal for you or anyone really. Braking among other things are taught, even how to recover from loosing the rear end. As far as riding goes, braking in a turn is quite upsetting to a bike. Idealy your braking should be done and over with before you hit the curve, but if your leaned over in a curve and a problem presents itself then there is not a whole lot you can do. It sounds like you are riding a little to hard for your present ability. I'm going to refrain from preaching to you that you should not be riding that agressivley in conditions you cannot predict(on the street). Keith Code has a really nice philosiphy on street riding, ride at 70-75% of your ability. If you are leaned over in a curve at 70% and a patch of gravel is in your line or a car pulls out in front of you, then you have some "reserve ability" to either tighten up your line or snap the bike upright and brake, etc. If you must brake at lean, then stay off the rear brake, I find myself using the front brake for just about all of braking. I rarely use the rear brake even in a straight. I guess I have a fear of the rear end coming around on me in a turn, although a accomplished rider could probably use both. Forget about engine braking, that is an expensive brake, maybe racers use it but bike brakes are a lot more powerfull than any gear drag could be. I think Ausieidiot races, he might could help you out a bit. But like I said I'm going to save the "you need to slow down and learn to ride right before you learn to ride fast" to someone else...but you do need that speech, and a MSF course will help you out tremendously on your street riding skills.

Z, that sucks. Really sucks.

Anyhoo, I am with talonlover in using my front brake primarily. I only use my rear for emergency/threshold braking. It's usually just enough to help out the front and stop the bike quicker. I locked up the rear ONCE... and I was lucky, I caught the bike and myself and nothing too bad happened.

As for the clutch, I do it "improperly" and I cover my clutch any time I'm braking so I can disengage it if I need a little more help slowing (or to keep from stalling in REALLY quick braking situations). I also picked up a habit to downshift as I'm slowing (in normal situations like stop signs or traffic lights that are visible from a little distance or can be anticipated)... this way, if the traffic light changes before I get there, I'm not doing 25mph in 4th or 5th gear. ;)

I hope you and your bike are okay and are ready for many more SHINY SIDE UP adventures.

I was in an empty industrial road where on a Sunday afternoon, there are no cars at all, except in that cross-roads I was referring to. So other than those gravels, I was more or less safe to learn how to ride in speed, after all, I can't be cruising in 30 mph in traffic. That curve I was referring to is at the end of the road, it's tight because it's a short curve that leads right to the cross-roads, but not tight or twisty as in knee-dragging skills are required. But anyhow, going 55 mph and halting to a short stop in a curvy-end might have been too much for me. I was leaning the bike a few degrees, no more than one would make when changing lanes.

I had to use both brakes, even though I was leaning to the left slightly. Just minutes before, I only used the front brake and went down, so I figure I needed to balance the bike. Although the thought of highside was racing my mind. A lot of hardcore track guys report that when you're leaning the bike, even slightly, it's not a good idea to use the front brake. Because:

1. It's not a good idea to use the brake in the 1st place while in a lean.
2. If you do have to use them, and a lot of racers do for dragging the rear, use the rear brake, like trailbraking, that scrubs-off some of the speed and causes the rear to drag. Becausing using the front brake basically urges the bike to stand up instead of maintaining lean.

I think this is one of the problem I had, the bike would turn one tenth of a second and then stand up, etc, etc, since I was using the front brake as well, which probably caused the lack of traction and wiggle on both tires. But I didn't have much of a choice, couldn't engine brake, so for most braking power in shortest amount of time, I had to use the front.

I've had previous MSF experience, and I'll take the class again. And what I noticed is that basically they'll teach the newbies to prevent lock ups or gain control at 20 mph, but when you're going above that, especially 55 mph, rear brakes are whole different animal, and there's no way to recover from it once you let go off the brake, unless you're Rossi, Mick Doohan or Mat Mladin of course. I'm sure MSF will instill confidence in me, but they really don't much beyond parking lot speed. I'm still looking forward to learning how swerve quickly though.

I forgot how the habits of driving cars were translating into the bike, I need to train myself to go the other way around. Usually when I'm driving a stick-shift car, and need to make a right-hander turn, I just disengage the clutch and shift from higher gear to neutral while using the brake; and as I exit the corner, I shift to 2nd gear and accelerate. That's what happend this time on the bike, instead of downshifting early and using engine braking, I just disengaged the clutch and proceeded to use the brakes.

It probably would've been better off simply rolling-off the throttle on 3rd gear if I didn't want to downshift. Because I think only disengaging the clutch actually increased or maintained the momentum of the tires, taking longer for me to brake.

So I'm kinda puzzled which would have been the better decision in this situation (since engine braking wasn't possible anymore)?

oh man.

i had the feeling in my guts like i was just kicked in the nuts by a 4yr old kid and everyone wonders why your wincing in pain.

going down always sucks but i think you're going about it in the right way. relatively deserted roads and then asking advice.

to answer talon, i don't actually race but do spend time at the track going fast in the same direction as other lunatics. helps with high speed control and you really understand how long it takes to pull up from 250k's an hour (150mph) before cornering at 200 (120mph)

anyway this is all part of the learning experience and getting to know your limits and more importantly the bikes. generally if you have enough traction to turn then you have enough to do a full emergency stop.

we get taught to set up before braking.
get the bike upright
take up slack on brake lever then sqeeze. the more you squeeze the more you'll stop. once your suspension is almost out of compression then your in danger of a lock or if you panic and "grab" the lever you'll lock.

downshift even without the clutch if you have to. once you downshift and set the front up then apply the back brake.

i've said this before that my riding style is that i don't use my front brakes any more than to just touch the disc. and i use the engine and back brake to pull me up. by riding like this i'm never going to be going at any great speed or put myself in any danger.BUT when needed i have the extra braking power. that all said the brakes on the 954 are too good for the street. don't need them at all until you hit the track and your constantly on the front and don't want any fade..

don't worry to much if you go down. chicks dig scars

If I downshift without clutch, wouldn't it cause the rear wheel to hop or slide?

Btw, in situations like these, is pulling the clutch a good idea, or should I had just rolled off the throttle and use the brakes? Because someone once told me that disengaging the clutch actually maintains the momentum of the tire or reduces the rate of deceleration than if I were to leave the clutch engaged and the throttle rolled-off.

Z, that's probably a fairly accurate statement, referring to the clutch allowing the wheel to maintain momentum.

This doesn't REALLY apply to your situation because you HAD to stop, but I'm going to mention it anyway. It's REALLY hard to do, but whenever you panic in a turn like that, it's actually best to ROLL ON the throttle. I assure you the bike can handle it, even if you aren't sure you can. It's so counter-intuitive, but it works the few times I have remembered to do it.

If I downshift without clutch, wouldn't it cause the rear wheel to hop or slide?

Btw, in situations like these, is pulling the clutch a good idea, or should I had just rolled off the throttle and use the brakes? Because someone once told me that disengaging the clutch actually maintains the momentum of the tire or reduces the rate of deceleration than if I were to leave the clutch engaged and the throttle rolled-off.

1st part
it may but its easier to control a rear end problem than a front
when i was learning i locked the rear a few times and it near threw me over the bars or slide me around the corners. :evillol:

2nd part

what you described is engine braking. go too far and see part 1

if you lock the rear the brakes are not as effective but would be slightly better than if the tyre has been hoisted in the air eg stoppie.

The first fall i ever had was because i used the front brake to hard and no back brake. Now what i do it if i need to stop fast i will down shift and use fron and back brake. I think down shifting is one on the best ways to go.

I remeber when i fell i did not wanna get back on that damn bike. I was only going like 10 or 15 miles and hr, but a car pulled in front of me in a parking lot and I got kinda scared and hit that front brake. I had my helmet on thank god I slid on my head alittle, and hurt my knee. Other then that i'm ok so far so good.