Help! 96 ES dies when shift into gear.

Hey Freakster and 1Thunder...........

Got a new code for ya! Why does this thing spit out codes at different times?? It didn't give the P0750 until last week so we all assumed it WAS the shift control solenoid, now it's saying P0731 Gear 1 ration incorrect. What ever is wrong with the car has been wrong for 2 1/2 weeks. Why doesn't the PCM show all of these to begin with? I know the OBDII scanner only shows what the computer tells it, but why didn't all codes come at once. What does the P0750 tell you guys???

I'm tarring-up my bat so i get a good grip when I reduce this car to rubble!!!

Hey there sassee just as i thought your car is trying to go into 2 gears at once low&reverse and the reason must be determined by you and a bunch of checking. First off you have to try to determine if it's mechanical or electrical. Now start off by going to trans electrical connector and disconnect it and then you have to start your engine but starter will not engage because safety neutural switch is disconnected at trans so you have to go to starter relay in pdc {black relay box under hood at left shock tower} look under cover and locate starter relay and remove it then turn ignition key to run position and jump relay terminals 30+87 and vehicle should start then hold brakes and put into gear and if vehicle keeps running problem is electrical re post with results

I never thought that it would get this in depth, but what I would do if the car was in my shop would be to perform a clutch-volume index of the clutch packs and all other internal components to the transmission; if I see something out of the ordinary, I'll know it. When you first posted the issues you were having w/ this car two weeks ago, I was sure it was fuel related. Now it appears to be transmission related. What I'll do next time I'm at work, I'll look up any TSB's for this model car for anything like this. This time, no matter how busy I am, I WILL POST IT, I promise!

Well, when it first happened, i felt sure it was fuel or sensor problems, but later I was confident it was in the trany. I just didn't (and still don't) know if the trany has a mechanical problem or electronic. Like I said before, this started out as an OCCASIONAL thing, just intermittent. I don't see how it could be a mechanical failure one moment, and running/shifting fine the next! Like I said, there was no chunkage (bit or pieces of metal) in the pan. It did have a little extremely fine metal on the magnet, but it appeared to be as normal as any other I had seen when changing filter.

When I put it gear with the front off of the ground, i felt CONFIDENT then my problem was in trany, just don't know what. Anyone got any ideas on why I'm getting these codes at different times. Hasn't moved from driveway in approx. 3 weeks but I got the shift solenoid code week and half ago, now last night getting the P0731 crap.

1Thunder - Where is the electical conector located? I know where the 2 speed (?) sensors are on drivers side, but haven't seen others.

Freakster - What is a "clutch-volume thingy" Is that only done at a dealer or tranny shop?

Maybe it's a conspiracy! The trany and PCM are just toying with me!

clutch volume index is something only a Chrysler dealer can do, it checks the amount of fluid level inside of each clutch pack, it has a relation to your problem, though it is remote. I don't believe it's your torque converter b/c you've said before that you can put your foot on the gas and put it in gear and it will run, even if the torque converter was permanately locked up, no matter what amount of gas you give it, it would still stall. My thinking is that the TCM made need to be flashed, or be reprogrammed; there was a TSB 18-24-96 for stalling in certain 96 Intrepids. The suggested "cure" was like I said having the TCM flash programmed.

I live in the boonies! Closest C/P/D/ Dealership is 50 miles from me. Let me guess, only a dealership can "flash" it??? Can I take it out and get it reprogrammed, assuming that is the ultimate determination? Towing companies are murder down here, $200+ for that ride!!! (one-way!)

Hey there sassee this electrical connector is on the drivers side follow edge of trans pan on drivers side and look above part ways up case there is a rectangular connector there it is a little hard to access or see but disconnect it and check for moisture or corrosion there if nothing wrong follow previous instructions

7:40 just got in. I'll change clothes and go check it out. ' let you know what happens after while.

e

OK.....Unplugged electrical connector (that was fun!) It was stuck. Kinda got excited, hoping that it was just corroded, but false alarm, clean as could be! Pulled starter relay, jumped terminals, cranked fine, put it in gear and IT DIED AGAIN!!!

Does this rule out all electrical, TCM too??? What's next?

I just don't understand how something that was intermittent before (and rarely at that), now becomes such a pain in the butt!

Since it keeps dying, maybe it's telling me it just wants to die in peace!!! All I know is, I have a track-hoe and I can give a decent burial!

All help appreciated, we're just hanging out. Really we are! We're not going anywhere! Not in the Dodge anyway. HEY, right now a sense of humor is the only thing working in my carport!(and it ain't doing that well!)

I live in the boonies! Closest C/P/D/ Dealership is 50 miles from me. Let me guess, only a dealership can "flash" it??? Can I take it out and get it reprogrammed, assuming that is the ultimate determination? Towing companies are murder down here, $200+ for that ride!!! (one-way!)

OUCH!!! Ok, Ernie, try this, I'm sure you're fed up and about to burn this car up; find the TCM, it's a black box mounted I believe around your firewall. There'll be a 10mm screw holding the electrical connector in place; this is kinda illegal but right now, it's the best we can do. What you'll be doing is disconnecting your TCM, taking it totally out of the picture. Your transmission, even if there's a total electrical failure will still be able to engage reverse. Once you've disconnected the module, try putting it in Reverse and see what happens. If it doesn't die, then it has to be the TCM that's bad. Just FYI, you'll have bells and whistles lighting up on the dash telling you something's terribly wrong and that's true b/c the TCM is out of the picture. Also, while you're at it check the main harness connector for and loose or spread terminals make sure that they're intact as well.

OK...I'll do that tonight, although it will be late. My oldest daughter (driver of infamous said Intrepid!) has Varsity soccer game tonight.

Preparing for the inevitable.....What's next if I disconnect the TCM and it STILL DIES! Like I've said all along, I just don't understand how it was a rare, intermittent thing before and now it's toast! Does it mean tranny??? Could it still be something minor making it freak out??? Should I start calling for rebuild prices???

if this fails, I don't know what else it could be. A rebuilt tranny wouldn't help the problem any. I guess maybe checking the cam sensor and crank sensor and seeing if there are any weak spots either in the sensor or the tone rings, that's my next logical guess.

I'm confused....If we're ruling out electronics by disconnecting power and the TCM, wouldn't it have to be mechanical???

Exactly. We're doing one of two things, confirming any mechanical faults and confirming main electronic brain for problems.

Ok......you're the mechanic! I'll check TCM tonight when I get home from Soccer. Talk with you later!

Thanks for all of your help so far!

ok.....disconnected TCM, had to bypass relay since I hadn't reconnected electric connector to tranny, cranked-up and died when I put in reverse.!!! Same thing, when it goes in gear, it sounds like it's jumping out from under the hood.

You never asked and I don't think i told you but this car does have the traction control on it. I don't know if that matters!

Since electronics disconnected and no go, does this mean shot tranny??? What's next? I don't mind if it is, I just don't want to have it rebuilt and the piece of crap still die when it goes in gear!!!

ernie

I hate to say it's the torque converter, but the more and more I hear you say that you've done everything else, I guess it is. Try this one last thing, check around your alternator and ignition coil. Make sure the connectors and tight and snug. Also check around your intake manifold for any leaks or around the throttle body. If necessary, disconnect the EGR and see what happens. I just don't feel that the torque converter is the culprit, though there's always the possibility. Another thing you can try is going underneath the car, get a breaker bar and a bolt that goes on the crankshaft pulley and turn the motor over (turning clockwise). Also, with the engine off, key on, put the transmission in gear and try turning it over. If it is so stiff that it won't budge, then it would have to be the torque converter that's locked up.

I'm not sure that trick or test is good because of no pressure in trans but hey it does not hurt to try and really all you have to do is engine off in drive or reverse try to push car should move freely good thought there freaknasty i never thought of that one but keep in mind if it does move may not be valid test bht if it does not move you know where the problem is please let me know

If the torque convertor is the culprit, does that automatically mean a tranny rebuild? I just had the pan off and no metal or burnt fluid! Seemed to shift fine before the problem started (I was the last to drive it)

I'll do other checks tomorrow after church. I think my daughter is getting to cozy in my Toyota 4x4!

well if it was my car it would get a rebuild new internal seals make better pressures at the right places not fun removing trans over&over if it could be avoided

OK....somebody either shoot me or the car because one of us has to go!!!

OK.....put the car in drive and pushed it forward and backwards in the driveway. Put it in reverse, pushed it forwards and backwards in driveway. It didn't need a breaker bar to turn the engine over while in gear, I happened to have 3/8 drive set out changing fan belts on my, excuse me, MY DAUGHTERS Toyota 4x4. it rolled with the 3/8 drive.

IS THIS THING POSSESSED!!!

WOW!!! I am honestly stumped, I don't know anymore little tricks here and there to try. In my gut, I feel w/o a doubt that your problem is electronic; either the programming in the PCM or the TCM. I doubt want to recommend a tranny rebuild b/c that might not even solve the problem. I'm not sure if you have done this already, but disconnect the battery for about 15 min. then reconnect it and see what goes; sometimes that'll reprogram the modules to base operations.

I feel that something is causing the tranny to lock-up when I shift but I have know idea what. With the engine running and I shift it into reverse, the engine looks like it's going to jump out of the car! It's not as rough when I put it in drive, but it still is noticable. Motor still cranks and runs perfect, until I shift into gear. But right now, electric connector is unplugged from tranny, and TCM is disconnected. So I don't see how the proiblem is caused by eletronics. But.....then when I pushed the car in gear and turned the engine over by hand while in gear, I freaked out!!! I don't see the tranny as being locked-up while sitting, but the engine wasn't running so maybe the fact of no pressure has something to do with it??? I'm simply baffled!!!

I would be HAPPY with replacing the trany if I knew for sure that would fix the problem. After yesterday, based on what Freakster and 1Thunder said, I'm not so sure that would fix the problem and I'd be spending money for no reason! (I've done enough of that already!)

Did you check your grounds at front frame rails one is on left rail below alt and the right side below air cleaner remove them clean make sure their tight and can you check crankshaft for end play back and forth if too much play you could be loosing crank sensor signal and if you can you must monitor
what you are loosing when it quits fuel or spark because if crank or cam sensor is culprit you will loose one of these also would you have a coolant leak? because these engines have a tendency to go through water pumps or timing belt tensioners then belt jumps and different driveability issues happen cam and crank sync signal are too far off then

The reason why it seems like the engine's gonna jump out of the car is because all the electronics have been disconnected and the car doesn't know what gear it is in. 1thunder, I see your reasoning but if cam and crank sensors were acting up, he would get intermittent stalling even when not in gear, sassee said earlier that it runs smooth as silk idling in park; so that's a possible alternative. Plus if the crankshaft endplay is at that excessive, it wouldn't even start up or if it did, it would idle so rough, it would feel as though the engine's gonna fall apart. Ernie, definetly check your grounds. I don't know why, but I just deep down feel in my heart that your security alarm is having a factor in this somehow, b/c earlier Chryslers w/ alarms would shut the fuel off if you didn't press the unlock button on the key fob. This is just wishful thinking, but does the key fob work on the car?

Security thing with key fob IS INTERESTING! I DO NOT keep a remote but my daughter does and for what-ever reason, she locks it every night. I unlock it with key to check stuff when I get home. I'll look at that possibility tonight.

How do I test the cam and crank sensors operation? If it stalls, there is no signal to check, right? How do I tell if that is culprit.

Does the pushing of the car in gear and turning engine by hand while in gear pretty much rule out tranny? If you guys think this is an electrical problem, I'll just take a day and search from one end to the other.

Thanks!

Ernie

NO....I have not checked the ground straps properly. I clamped a test light to the body and stuck probe on positive terminal. It lit up so I ASSUMED it was good. Of course we all know about assuming! MAYBE THE GROUND ISN't SUFFICIENT, I'll go back and re-check.

How can I test cam and crank sensors

I don't know what happened during that last post.....anyway

I don't know if this matters, but the car does have traction control, ' just thought I'd throw that back out there!

And Freakster, the engine wants to jump out EVEN wITH ALL OF THE ELECTRONICS HOOKED TO THE TRANNY. NO DIFFERENCE BEFORE OR AFTER!

well then freaknasty you obviously don't know you chryslers because you should know that the allarm would stall engine within 2 seconds of starting no mater what gear your in

I'm well aware of that, I was going through possible options, I've been working for a Dodge dealer the past 2 years.

Right now, I'd say rule out the transmission being a culprit at the present moment until further evidence reveals that there's something screwy there. Ernie, if you have access to a stethoscope, while the engine is running, listen for hissing or whistling sounds around the intake manifold; a loose gasket can cause stalling problems. If you can get access to your injectors, it's sort of a tight fit, make sure those connectors are on tight. You know, I'm a dumbass b/c I never asked you this from the outset, probably would've saved everyone a lot of hassle, prior to this problem occuring, did you ever have any repairs done to the car, i.e. valve cover gaskets, fuel injector repair, pressure regulator replacement or any repair work before the car went to hell?

yes and i have 30 years at a dodge dealer and all these flashes you keep suggesting for this vehicle for this problem i cant seem to find it in chrysler portal or do you know what this is i think you are a good money spender

I DID replace spark plugs and wires due to slightly rough idle. Car WOULD NOT crank afterwards. It's really hard to cross plug wires when you pull one at a time, but I went back and checked them again. They were right. Rechecked everything I could have possibly knocked loose, everything fine! finally, disconnected battery overnight and cranked and ran fine next day. I guess PCM had to reset???
Also did complete front brake job, but that couldn't mess-up anything related to this issue.

I just remembered this morning....When I did last checks on tranny,( pushing while in gear and turning-over engine by hand while in gear) the TCM and the electrical conector to the tranny were still disconected from previous test. Does that need to be redone with those hooked-up??? Will it make a difference?

1Thunder.....Dude, Chill out! I'm the one that asked for ANY POSSIBLE CAUSE! I appreciate your input so far and I hope you continue to offer possible solutions, but the car IS still sitting in the driveway!!! Right now, I'd chase any cause within reason.

Ernie,

the checks you made even with the module disconnected wouldn't make a difference because you are checking for a mechanical fault and not an electrical fault. Did you check those fuel injectors to make sure that they're in tight and snug? Also, just ironically, do you have any fuel odors while the engine is running?

1Thunder, I'm sorry you feel as though I'm not qualified enough to help. I always believed that you must weigh every possible option no matter how outlandish it is. I know we have our professional differences, I always believe that being professional doesn't mean belittling the other person. Again, I'm sorry if you feel that my few years of experience are inadequate, though I am just 22 years old. For your sake and if it pleases you, I shall no longer post any more responses in this post and I'll let someone of you golden caliber diagnose this baffling issue!

up to now i have respected your thoughts and never questioned your methods no matter how remote they were on the other hand every thing i seem to suggest you seem to dissagree well i have seen many many problems and i do believe this one is 100% trans related so i give you the oppurtunity to solve on your own i'm leaving this post.... later

WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU CHILDREN CAN'T GET ALONG! The one thing I know for sure is that I am the one who asked for help AND the car is still sitting in the driveway! As of yet, neither school of thought has produced any definite cause for this, or have I misunderstood something?

Freakster....I don't care if your 22 or 2!!! As long as you are pointing me in valid directions, I could care less.

1Thunder.....I appreciate your 30 years of experience, but like I said, the car IS STILL SITTING IN THE DRIVEWAY AND NO DIFINITIVE DIAGNOSIS HAS BEEN MADE.

IF BOTH OF YOU DON'T CARE TO TALK TO EACH OTHER, THAT'S FINE. I AM THE ONE WHO ASKED FOR HELP!

Ernie,

I apologize for acting like a 2 year old, I lost track of my priorities, and for this I apologize mostly to you. Just a spark of genius that occured to me today at work, check the main electrical connections/connectors going to and from the transmission. At the left front strut tower, there will be two big electrical connectors; check those for spread terminals or loose terminals. Another I want to ask you, when all this started to happen, not sure if I asked you this before, but did the transmission ever go into limp mode? What I mean by that is did it ever stay in one gear only? Going along 1Thunder's theory, which I agree with, I believe it might be a faulty transmission range sensor. Also, to verify that theory, try starting the car up in other gears like reverse, drive, 3, low and it wants to turn over.

Glad to hear from you...

Yes! The tranny has been in limp mode before. It's done 3 or 4 times in the past year. But, when the car was stopped and cranked back up, it was shifting fine. Just tried to crank it up in gear. IT WILL NOT crank in anything but park or neutral. I do not smell any gas from the engine compartment. I checked ground straps from battery to frame, they were fine, although I cleaned them up. I have not checked ground from PCM or TCM yet(if there are any). I'll check thru some of the electrical connectors tomorrow.

So.....for now we are ruling out bad tranny and concentrating on electrical? Is there any condition(like a short)that would cause the torque convertor to lock-up when I shift into gear and then unlock when the engine dies? I put it in gear and let it croak and, without turning key off or changing gear, I pushed the car forwards and backwards. But again, the engine sounds like it's coming out when I shift into reverse. It's still meets a quick death when put in drive, but it isn't as vocal about it!

yeah, if you were able to move the car with it in gear, what that was confirming was a mechanical fault. If the torque converter clutch was applied, it would be like trying to push your Toyota 4x4 with the clutch engaged with the truck in gear, it won't budge! Since you were able to move the car, that confirms that the torque converter clutch is OK, plus there are return springs inside the torque converter to prevent it from locking itself up. This is a 100% electrical problem, the key is with electrical faults, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. While you're at it, check all those wires going to the transmission, the TCM and everything. If you have a short to ground anywhere, it could case chaos. See if the insulation around all those wires are not exposed and if they are, get some electrical tape and cover them up. Let me know what happens, b/c I'm dying to find out what the results are.

Hey Freakster, how was vacation? any new revelations on this Intrepid?

Let's start over.......It cranks and runs fine. Put it in gear and it dies. sounds like it wants to jump out from under hood sometimes. I wound up giving my daughter my toyota 4x4, but i'd like to get this back on the road, either to sell or commute to work.

Hey Ernie,

Vacation was great; just what I needed. Anyway, I did give some thought to your Intrepid and what I can think of is that it might be a programming issue with the PCM, due to the fact that there was a TSB for your year model car for stalling. The only issue for you is, getting it to a dealership. You can't just take out the TCM and take it to the dealership and drop it off and let them reprogram it, it needs to be interactive w/ the vehicle for it to be reprogrammed or "flashed". If I may make a suggestion, call your local Dodge dealership, let them know the problem you have, see if they can offer some suggestions. I deal with these guys all the time and the best way to talk to a service advisor is be polite, don't be rude. Be firm, don't compromise, yet again, be polite and try not to get angry. Even if you have to ask over and over again, be persistent. I have seen cars roll through my doors that were years out of warranty, yet a good word from the advisor, service manager and zone manager have pushed the right buttons to get things going. Try that and see what goes.

My daughters' 96 'Trep ES is driving me nutz! It kept skipping and cutting off. I checked MAP sensor, no voltage on signal wire so I replaced it. I replaced both O2 Sensors. Now, it runs great....as long as you don't put it in gear! Put it in Reverse or Drive and it dies! (painfully) It acts like it wanys to go but stalls. If I give it some gas it will go but as soon as it slows down...........death!

It acts like my Toyota 4x4 when the clutch died. It was in gear and the clutch was depressed fully but it wan't to go! Could this be the torque converter not unlocking? If so, how do you test for that.? All help appreciated. $225 later and still not running! My teenage daughter is driving my Suburban!!! That's not good!!! I need to get her back on the road.

Does it jerk real hard then die?

If so sounds like the Torque Converter is locked-up, which would be just like having the clutch engage without giving it gas.

That was it! I wish you had replied a year and a half ago. It would have saved me a lot of screaming!

That was it! I wish you had replied a year and a half ago. It would have saved me a lot of screaming!

What exactly fixed this?

Sorry I missed your question!

If you're still interested, a new torque convertor and flushing out all of the aluminum in the tranny did just fine. I bought my daughter a Montero for graduation but I kept the 'trep and use it as a daily commuter car. 189K miles and still running like crazy! (at 28MPG to boot!)