Professor Churchill

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/02/08/speaker.protest.ap/index.html

I am really surprised that this hasn't been brought up yet. This guy does have the freedom of speech, but is way out of line and needs to be dealt with. Here's some pictures outside of his office and in the Ethics section of Colorado University.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/56975flag1.jpg

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/56975holocaust.jpg

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Professor do not need to be teaching their opinions. They need to teach the lesson plans and allow students to make their own minds up. The guy is obviously a far-left loon. No one that died that day deserved it and that's the bottom line.

I can't believe no one has absolutely nothing to say on this subject whatsoever.

Either there is nothing to say since the topic speaks for itself, or what can be said might not be good to hear and cause a riot.

TS out

Of course, if he was from the other extreme, the 'with us or against us' Gestapo,nobody would be reporting it.

Have you read his report? If not, then how do you know the context of the quotes you have heard?

From what I have heard, I think he may have gone a bit over-board, but I support his right to say whatever he wants to say 100%.

And all those people who think he should be fired, or be punished somehow, all I can say is WTF.

He's part of the school. They have the right to fire him and should exercize tht right.

This guy does have the freedom of speech, but is way out of line and needs to be dealt with.

Make your mind up.Does hew have the constitutional right to free speech, or are you going to try and dick him if you don't like what he says?



He's part of the school. They have the right to fire him and should exercize tht right.
Last I heard, it was the 'bad' countries that fired their public servants for not holding the approved opinions.
Countries like Iraq, where if you didn't belong to the right school of thought, you didn't get to keep your job.Is that really the kind of mentality that you want for 'the land of the free'?How long before you start demanding that Proffessor Churchill and anyone else who dares to criticise a mediocre foreign policy be dragged off to jail for sedition?

Make your mind up.If you believe that this whole invasion of Iraq was about democracy, freedom of speech and tolerance, you'd better demonstrate that you know what you are talking about by showing some courtesy to those who are smart enough to know that you are wrong.

I completely agree with naki. What kind of an incredible hypocrite would invade a country in the name of freedom (eventually) and then restrict the most BASIC of freedoms at home?

Tehvisseeus, do you really believe he should be fired for stating his opinion, which happens to be one not everyone agrees with?

PS- Why the hell is it always in Colorado...? Is there something in our water?

Make your mind up.Does hew have the constitutional right to free speech, or are you going to try and dick him if you don't like what he says?
Yes he does have the right to free speech. But referring the victims who died in 9/11 as "Little Ike-mans" and comparing them to the likes of Adolf Hitler is a travesty. It may as well be considered being racist and its a total lack of respect to the victims and their families.

Last I heard, it was the 'bad' countries that fired their public servants for not holding the approved opinions.
Countries like Iraq, where if you didn't belong to the right school of thought, you didn't get to keep your job.Is that really the kind of mentality that you want for 'the land of the free'?How long before you start demanding that Proffessor Churchill and anyone else who dares to criticise a mediocre foreign policy be dragged off to jail for sedition?

Make your mind up.If you believe that this whole invasion of Iraq was about democracy, freedom of speech and tolerance, you'd better demonstrate that you know what you are talking about by showing some courtesy to those who are smart enough to know that you are wrong.For one you're right, he is a public servant. Therefor shouldn't the public have the right to fire him? I do not agree with the Iraq war because it brought freedom, democracy, or any of the other wonderful talking points to the Iraquis. I agree with it because of the hundreds of thousands of people in mass graves.

No one is saying that the profesor can not say what he wants. We just don't think that we should be footing the bill.

No one is saying that the profesor can not say what he wants. We just don't think that we should be footing the bill.

You're not paying for his opinion,you are paying him to do a job.If he's not performing,fire him for sure,but if you just don't like how he sees things,too bad.

People who try to restrict free speech are usually those who are too authoritarian and stupid to debate the point.I get tired of the Republican mantra, but I'm not in the habit of demanding that all people who post that nonsense here be prevented from speaking.



Yes he does have the right to free speech. But referring the victims who died in 9/11 as "Little Ike-mans" and comparing them to the likes of Adolf Hitler is a travesty. It may as well be considered being racist and its a total lack of respect to the victims and their families.

The existence of offensive comment is the price that you pay for free speech.There wouuld be no need for the term if everyone thought the same thing.The guy is using the 9/11 victims as pawns in his argument, which for a professor, is pretty poor.However, when such behaviou is exhibited by a President, it's less than poor, it's utterly contemptible.

The way this country is headed, it won't be long before all liberals, free thinkers and those that deviate from the ultra-conservative, pseudo-nationalistic agenda will be replaced with right wing Puritan PC drones anyhow (We don't mind footing the bill for them). So just hang in there- we are simply experiencing some mild turbulence. I would just sit back and enjoy your tax cut, it will all go away soon...

/\ Speak of the devil :D

And I shall appear. Spreading plague, famine, pestilence and liberal propaganda.

http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/churchill.html

Here is a link to that guy's report if you want to read it. It's very, very, very long and is broken up into several sections.

"The men who flew the missions against the WTC and Pentagon were not "cowards." That distinction properly belongs to the "firm-jawed lads" who delighted in flying stealth aircraft through the undefended airspace of Baghdad, dropping payload after payload of bombs on anyone unfortunate enough to be below – including tens of thousands of genuinely innocent civilians – while themselves incurring all the risk one might expect during a visit to the local video arcade."

The above statement is just a small taste as to what the report is about and the mood of it. If it gets under your skin and pisses you off you probably shouldn't read it or prepare yourself.

David Horowitz, a champion of conservative causes who has long accused American universities of overstocking their faculties with leftists, has said firing Churchill would violate his First Amendment rights and set a bad precedent.

Is that David Horowitz as in Fight Back!? I loved that show!

"The men who flew the missions against the WTC and Pentagon were not "cowards." That distinction properly belongs to the "firm-jawed lads" who delighted in flying stealth aircraft through the undefended airspace of Baghdad, dropping payload after payload of bombs on anyone unfortunate enough to be below – including tens of thousands of genuinely innocent civilians – while themselves incurring all the risk one might expect during a visit to the local video arcade."

The above statement is just a small taste as to what the report is about and the mood of it. If it gets under your skin and pisses you off you probably shouldn't read it or prepare yourself.

I agree with that statement though, so I guess I will probably enjoy his article...I always did wonder why they called the hijackers cowards. Seemed pretty ballsy to me.

The above statement is just a small taste as to what the report is about and the mood of it. If it gets under your skin and pisses you off you probably shouldn't read it or prepare yourself.

Actually, it looks bang on to me.If the truth 'gets under your skin',better to stay away from this particular site and coccoon yourself in your preconceived misconceptions.

I don't have a problem with his opinion (although I disagree), nor do I have a problem with him writing whatever paper he wants to. I do however have a problem with him using his job as a professor to spread his own political opinions to a captive audience. I've had a few professors do similar things in the class room but to a much lesser degree. It's annoying and uncalled for. If I want your opinion I'll come to a seminar or talk to you after class or whatever. But don't preach to me while I'm attempting to get an education.

I agree with that statement though, so I guess I will probably enjoy his article...I always did wonder why they called the hijackers cowards. Seemed pretty ballsy to me.

Crazy is another word that comes to mind. Brainwashed, dupes, bafoons, zealots, .....should I go on?

These people were weak minded and weak willed. There will always be these types of people in the world looking to please whoever they see as their master. osama just happened to get to them before another terrorist group did.

The same could be said of conservative Christians in this country. And with all due respect, I know for a fact you feel differently about them. It's ethnocentric and religio-centric beliefs like this that get us into trouble in the first place.

Crazy is another word that comes to mind. Brainwashed, dupes, bafoons, zealots, .....should I go on?

These people were weak minded and weak willed. There will always be these types of people in the world looking to please whoever they see as their master.

Same simplistic argument could be used to label the Marines, but if I did that you'd be outraged.

The terrorists who died for their cause in New York are no more cowardly and brainwashed than the 1400 Marines who died for theirs.

Too bad that,unlike the terrorists, the Marines' cause is a pack of lies constructed to conceal the fact that this whole campaign is about long-term stability of resources rather than democracy.

The same could be said of conservative Christians in this country. And with all due respect, I know for a fact you feel differently about them. It's ethnocentric and religio-centric beliefs like this that get us into trouble in the first place.

So you are suggesting that Christians are out there killing thousands for the sake of their God? So you are saying that they believe so much in their God that they will lay down their life to kill innocents? Look around . They are laying down their life to save thousands for what they believe. They are out there helping so much more than the non Christians that it would be almost embarassing to be a non Christian. To compare a Christian to one of these terrorist is an insult. Not to me ..... but to your intelligence.

Same simplistic argument could be used to label the Marines, but if I did that you'd be outraged.
Would I? Don't assume you know anything about me.
The terrorists who died for their cause in New York are no more cowardly and brainwashed than the 1400 Marines who died for theirs.
You're opinion. I won't argue with you about that. Too bad that,unlike the terrorists, the Marines' cause is a pack of lies constructed to conceal the fact that this whole campaign is about long-term stability of resources rather than democracy.
So going to heaven and getting 7 virgins for killing yourself and as many others as you can in the process is the truth?:lol:

Anyway...as simplistic as you may think it is you also choose it against the marines. Well in turn it can be used against any soldier who ever fought and served in any country in the world.

So going to heaven and getting 7 virgins for killing yourself and as many others as you can in the process is the truth?:lol:

So now your gonna start taking shots at their beliefs? I would have to say, and yes, I am a Christian, that no matter how strongly you believe in something, it is still just that, a belief. As Christians, our beliefs are no more concrete than theirs.

These terrorists, are on the same level as our marines. They are soldiers, fighting for what they believe in. I dont agree with their cause, but it is not my place to judge them.

Actually, it looks bang on to me.If the truth 'gets under your skin',better to stay away from this particular site and coccoon yourself in your preconceived misconceptions.

The truth doesn't get under my skin but a person's opinion might. So are you agreeing taranaki and saying fighter pilots are cowards and the terrorist who flew the planes aren't? This isn't truth, but an opinion somebody has. I might not like a person's opinion but that's all it is, an opinion. Before an opinion can become truth it needs fact to back it up, and it's hard to find facts that a guy who flew a stealth bomber is more of a coward than the pilot who flew his plane into the first WTC tower.

These terrorists, are on the same level as our marines. They are soldiers, fighting for what they believe in.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Marines take an oath to protect the United States against its enemies. The terrorists I'm sure take an oath to protect their religion. The terrorist have no problem strapping T.N.T. to themselves and blowing an office building up even if it was nothing more than a large day care center. Even though some people believe it I don't see our Marines as blood thirsty animals that will kill everything in their range because they can.

So now your gonna start taking shots at their beliefs? I would have to say, and yes, I am a Christian, that no matter how strongly you believe in something, it is still just that, a belief. As Christians, our beliefs are no more concrete than theirs.

So just what is their belief based on? Do you think they are muslim? If so then please show me anywhere in their Quran that it states they will get 7 virgins if they commit suicide and kill others in the process. Their belief? Their belief in this as I stated to taranaki is a lie osama is feeding them to get them to do his bidding. Am I knocking their belief? Hell Yes.. The same as I would knock someones belief in Christianity if they go out and kill 3000 people for the sake of their god (or for a few virgins.) Personally I think they got screwed. I hear there is a special going on for virgins this week. Kill 1000 and get 9 virgins.

These terrorists, are on the same level as our marines. They are soldiers, fighting for what they believe in. I dont agree with their cause, but it is not my place to judge them.

Well I think it is your place to judge them. Do you hear anyone on this board not judging the US? Hell no. Tell you what..You go ahead and not judge those who have made you their enemy. I'm sure that will make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside and maybe they will decide we are not such bad guys after all.

It's not your place to judge them on whether they are going to hell or to heaven but it is your place to judge the actions of someone who calls himself your enemy.

These terrorist are on the same level as our marines? They aren't even close. They wish they were on that level. That's my opinion so don't bother arguing with me about it because you won't change my mind.

as much as I am disheartened to read a story like that, he does have the right to say it, and we, also have the right to not read it. I do feel though, he will more than likely be fired, because every place of buisness, usually have their own code of ethics, and you are to abide by them. such as, conduct unbecoming an officer... which in this case, he is using his posisition as the professor, and therefore, drawing the school into the bad light that he is causing with some people, and basically making it appear that his views are also agreed upon by the school faculty, because they have not asked him to stop doing it on the schools dime. No college wants bad publicity, and this college has had more than its fair share. Now, the bad publicity of the backlash fr firing him, they need to weigh it, and see if it is worse or better, than if they just leave him in place and severly reprimand him, or something to that affect.

So just what is their belief based on? Do you think they are muslim? If so then please show me anywhere in their Quran that it states they will get 7 virgins if they commit suicide and kill others in the process. Their belief? Their belief in this as I stated to taranaki is a lie osama is feeding them to get them to do his bidding. Am I knocking their belief? Hell Yes.. The same as I would knock someones belief in Christianity if they go out and kill 3000 people for the sake of their god (or for a few virgins.) Personally I think they got screwed. I hear there is a special going on for virgins this week. Kill 1000 and get 9 virgins.



Well I think it is your place to judge them. Do you hear anyone on this board not judging the US? Hell no. Tell you what..You go ahead and not judge those who have made you their enemy. I'm sure that will make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside and maybe they will decide we are not such bad guys after all.

It's not your place to judge them on whether they are going to hell or to heaven but it is your place to judge the actions of someone who calls himself your enemy.

These terrorist are on the same level as our marines? They aren't even close. They wish they were on that level. That's my opinion so don't bother arguing with me about it because you won't change my mind.

Actually since you pointed out the fact of the 7 virgins, the burden of proof lies on you, where did you even get that from? I've never heard that before in my life.

As to the second paragraph, why do you defend America's Forces when they bombed japan and wiped out everything? They believed they were doing it in defense? Well maybe the taliban think what they are doing is in defense.

And no the suicide bombers and the marines are on the same level. Whats the difference in them? American soldiers are fighting for what they believe as are these people. The only difference is, is that Americas story just hits home with most people.

The fact that you say, dont bother arguing with me because it wotn change my mind, shows just how ignorant you really are.

I love this kind of controversy, i agree with some of the things he says, some of it's a little over the top to try and get his point across, but a lot of it is the hard truth. It's something not everyone wants to hear, so when they do hear it, they play it off as blasphemy and BS. And for those who say he shouldn't be teaching his opinions like this, you obviously have never been to or dont know much about Universities/state schools. I heard recordings of one of his lectures and he even acknowledges being a hyprocrite on some things to get his point across, but he refuses to take back anything he said or deny anything he's said, and that makes him more of a man than most of our leaders in this country.

Edit: Kind of reminds you of Sam Kennison from the movie Back To School doesn't he? :icon16:

So you are suggesting that Christians are out there killing thousands for the sake of their God? So you are saying that they believe so much in their God that they will lay down their life to kill innocents? Look around . They are laying down their life to save thousands for what they believe. They are out there helping so much more than the non Christians that it would be almost embarassing to be a non Christian. To compare a Christian to one of these terrorist is an insult. Not to me ..... but to your intelligence.

Well now you are just putting words in my mouth, are you not?Christians...always trying to save the poor misguided masses (infidels?) from themselves.

You said above, and I quote, that Christians are "Laying down their life...for what they believe". Is this fundamentally different from what the terrorists did?? Methods and means aside, it is not. The problem is that people such as yourself, who some might possibly label "brainwashed" or a "zealot" (as you have labeled those Muslims), who actually believe it is an EMBARRASSMENT to be anything other than a Christian, will NEVER understand or respect what it is to be anything other than a Christian. It logically follows that any further arguement involving any human who does not share your specific beliefs would be futile and a true insult to my intelligence.

For the record, I don't condone terrorism. But I'm no fan of BS, contradictory rhetoric and ignorance, either...

Actually since you pointed out the fact of the 7 virgins, the burden of proof lies on you, where did you even get that from? I've never heard that before in my life.

My mistake. It's actually 72 virgins. The deal is getting sweeter all the time.

As to the second paragraph, why do you defend America's Forces when they bombed japan and wiped out everything? They believed they were doing it in defense? Well maybe the taliban think what they are doing is in defense.

Japan? Are we talking Japan now? Keep up with the conversation.

And no the suicide bombers and the marines are on the same level. Whats the difference in them? American soldiers are fighting for what they believe as are these people. The only difference is, is that Americas story just hits home with most people.

They are not on the same level. It has nothing to do with belief but training and honor. As I stated before but you seemed to over look is that I won't argue the point because it is simply opinion and it won't change anyones mind.

The fact that you say, dont bother arguing with me because it wotn change my mind, shows just how ignorant you really are.

:lol: You need to be a whole lot smarter than you are right now before you have the privilage of calling me ignorant.

My mistake. It's actually 72 virgins. The deal is getting sweeter all the time.

Japan? Are we talking Japan now? Keep up with the conversation.

They are not on the same level. It has nothing to do with belief but training and honor. As I stated before but you seemed to over look is that I won't argue the point because it is simply opinion and it won't change anyones mind.

:lol: You need to be a whole lot smarter than you are right now before you have the privilage of calling me ignorant.


And where does it say 72 virgins? I'd like to see the article or website or whatever it is that says this.

And no we werent talking about japan, but i brought them up because they were relevant to the point that i was trying to make. But obviously you did not see that, you only saw Japan, and instantly decided that it was nothing of importance.

And you stated before that "That's my opinion so don't bother arguing with me about it because you won't change my mind." Not that you wont argue it because it is only your opinion and it wont change anyones elses mind. So please be sure of what you are saying before you type it.

And i once again see that you are very ignorant. You do not respect the facts or opinions that they are stating, you are very single minded, and have no comebacks to what i have stated, so you try to insult me by basically calling me stupid.

Good job.

Well now you are just putting words in my mouth, are you not?Christians...always trying to save the poor misguided masses (infidels?) from themselves.

Infidels?? Your words not mine. Christians saving the masses from themselves? How about trying to save them for the sake of themselves?

You said above, and I quote, that Christians are "Laying down their life...for what they believe". Is this fundamentally different from what the terrorists did??
Seriously?



Methods and means aside, it is not.

Wrong.....It is. One is selfish while the other is selfless.
One kills for the profit of himself while the other dies for the profit of others.
One dies for love while the other dies for hate.





The problem is that people such as yourself, who some might possibly label "brainwashed" or a "zealot" (as you have labeled those Muslims),

I've been called worse.
You call these people muslims? True Muslims won't even claim them. Do you know why? Because they don't follow the word they profess.

who actually believe it is an EMBARRASSMENT to be anything other than a Christian, will NEVER understand or respect what it is to be anything other than a Christian.

The embarassment doesn't come from not being a Christian but from not being a Christian and nit picking anything Christian even though the Christians are out there doing more good than any group they belong to.


It logically follows that any further arguement involving any human who does not share your specific beliefs would be futile and a true insult to my intelligence.

You don't have to share my specific beliefs. Your choice. I don't look down on someone for not sharing by beliefs but I do look down on those who twist what is meant to be good(Muslim) into something that is ugly and wrong.

And where does it say 72 virgins? I'd like to see the article or website or whatever it is that says this.

This is easy. Go to Google or any search engine of your choosing. Type in "72 Virgins" and see what comes up. Do you really want me to post every link that comes up?

And no we werent talking about japan, but i brought them up because they were relevant to the point that i was trying to make. But obviously you did not see that, you only saw Japan, and instantly decided that it was nothing of importance.

Ok so anything in the past is fair game? We were talking about the present. Let's try and stay there.

And you stated before that "That's my opinion so don't bother arguing with me about it because you won't change my mind." Not that you wont argue it because it is only your opinion and it wont change anyones elses mind. So please be sure of what you are saying before you type it.

I knew exactly what I was saying. Please be sure what I am saying before you reply.

And i once again see that you are very ignorant. You do not respect the facts or opinions that they are stating, you are very single minded, and have no comebacks to what i have stated, so you try to insult me by basically calling me stupid.

Good job.

This is like the forest through the trees analogy. You called me ignorant. I said you aren't smart enough for that privilage. Then you call me ignorant again and somehow I am the one who should feel bad?:lol2:

, but he refuses to take back anything he said or deny anything he's said, and that makes him more of a man than most of our leaders in this country.


Couldn't agree more. I may not like everything he says but he has the right to say it. The university also has the right to fire him if they choose to.

The only real problem I have with this guy is that he seems to put everyone working in the WTC at that time in the same boat. He forgets that many of them are no different than himself. Just regular working people trying to make a living. Maybe he should look at himself in the same light he looks at others. He is as much the cause as anyone else is.

1. They do misinterprit The Good Book to their according and that is not why the Muslim community is disowning these peolpe. It's in fear of other ignorant people blaming the religion for what a groupf of people beleive. II'm sick and tired of everyone blaming the religion for all bad things that happen. Culture hasa role in it too and I'd wish people were more informed on anything they talk about so we don't have to waste time explaining everything

2.DGB454, you're looking at the situation from one side. How do you think the terrorists are thinking when they detonate a bomb? Sure the way they carry out their war is illegetimate, but what other choice do they have when they are being invaded by the world's super power? They fight their war for their country, you fight your war for your country....what's the difference there? Do you claim to fight wars for the love of the world or for the hate of terrorists then? Do you fight wars to benefit the world or yourself?

Meh...it all boils down to people with different beliefs pushing them on one another. Killing, maiming, bitching, moaning, disagreeing etc, etc. One persons help is another's hindrance. One person's right is another's wrong. One's heaven another's hell. In essence, a pointless arguement with no hope of resolution or mutual understanding.

1. They do misinterprit The Good Book to their according and that is not why the Muslim community is disowning these peolpe. It's in fear of other ignorant people blaming the religion for what a groupf of people beleive. II'm sick and tired of everyone blaming the religion for all bad things that happen. Culture hasa role in it too and I'd wish people were more informed on anything they talk about so we don't have to waste time explaining everything

So the Muslim world is disowning them out of fear? I'm sorry but that doesn't seem like the Muslims I know. As for the second part. I couldn't agree more.

2.DGB454, you're looking at the situation from one side. How do you think the terrorists are thinking when they detonate a bomb? Sure the way they carry out their war is illegetimate, but what other choice do they have when they are being invaded by the world's super power? They fight their war for their country, you fight your war for your country....what's the difference there? Do you claim to fight wars for the love of the world or for the hate of terrorists then? Do you fight wars to benefit the world or yourself?

Actually I don't fight wars. I don't believe in this war. Yes I do look at things from one side but that's the side I am on and I make no excuses or apologies for that.

This is easy. Go to Google or any search engine of your choosing. Type in "72 Virgins" and see what comes up. Do you really want me to post every link that comes up?

Ok so anything in the past is fair game? We were talking about the present. Let's try and stay there.

I knew exactly what I was saying. Please be sure what I am saying before you reply.

This is like the forest through the trees analogy. You called me ignorant. I said you aren't smart enough for that privilage. Then you call me ignorant again and somehow I am the one who should feel bad?:lol2:

Ok i recognize the fact that the 72 wives information was in fact correct.

And this has nothing to do with being in the present or the past, were having a discussion and im trying to point out my opinion, the way i see things and i used the historical bombing of japan to clearly show what i disagreed with you on.

And i just provided evidence that you are confused about what you are saying heres a reminder,

"And you stated before that "That's my opinion so don't bother arguing with me about it because you won't change my mind." Not that you wont argue it because it is only your opinion and it wont change anyones elses mind. So please be sure of what you are saying before you type it."

Im not trying to make you feel bad either, but you are ignorant of other peoples opinions and facts. If nothing can change your mind, then you must be ignorant of facts and opinions.

Meh...it all boils down to people with different beliefs pushing them on one another. Killing, maiming, bitching, moaning, disagreeing etc, etc. One persons help is another's hindrance. One person's right is another's wrong. One's heaven another's hell. In essence, a pointless arguement with no hope of resolution or mutual understanding.

There ya go. The best we can hope for is rest at the end of the road.

Would I? Don't assume you know anything about me.

You're opinion. I won't argue with you about that.
So going to heaven and getting 7 virgins for killing yourself and as many others as you can in the process is the truth?:lol:

Anyway...as simplistic as you may think it is you also choose it against the marines. Well in turn it can be used against any soldier who ever fought and served in any country in the world.

Point one...I've seen enough of your posts in this forum to predict how you would react to most lines of debate.

Point two......If you had your facts right first up[as in,72 virgins, not 7],it would smooth the flow of the argument.Now as far as your question goes your mocking little smiley at the end of the question indicates that you are happy to belittle the faith of these people.I believe in their gods as much as I believe in yours.Dying a hero for the sake of George Bush's oil buddies is just as twisted and dumb as dying a hero for your religious beliefs.

Point three.....Sadly you are correct.Most wars are fought for financial or strategic advantage, and are dressed up with religion or patriotism to makre them look less grubby than they really are.

Ok i recognize the fact that the 72 wives information was in fact correct.

Cool. No harm no foul.

And this has nothing to do with being in the present or the past, were having a discussion and im trying to point out my opinion, the way i see things and i used the historical bombing of japan to clearly show what i disagreed with you on.

But that was a totally different time and a totally different reason. We were attacked first. Not that it was right to bomb the snot out of them but it has no bearing on this subject.

And i just provided evidence that you are confused about what you are saying heres a reminder, "And you stated before that "That's my opinion so don't bother arguing with me about it because you won't change my mind." Not that you wont argue it because it is only your opinion and it wont change anyones elses mind. So please be sure of what you are saying before you type it."

I'm not confused. I basically stated that this was simply my opinion and arguing with me about it will do no good. My mind is made up on this matter. Not because I am closed minded but because I have looked into it extensively and made a decision about it.

I stated origionally to taranaki that I won't argue with him about what is his opinion about this matter for the same reason. He stated his opinion and I stated mine. I'm not trying to change his mind and he (hopefully) won't try and change mine.

Im not trying to make you feel bad either, but you are ignorant of other peoples opinions and facts. If nothing can change your mind, then you must be ignorant of facts and opinions.

I'm not ignorant of others opinions. I am very open to their opinions. I may not agree with them but I am willing to listen to them. I'm not really sure what other peoples facts are though. Are those different than my facts? I thought that facts are just facts reguardless of who says them.

The truth doesn't get under my skin but a person's opinion might. So are you agreeing taranaki and saying fighter pilots are cowards and the terrorist who flew the planes aren't? This isn't truth, but an opinion somebody has. I might not like a person's opinion but that's all it is, an opinion. Before an opinion can become truth it needs fact to back it up, and it's hard to find facts that a guy who flew a stealth bomber is more of a coward than the pilot who flew his plane into the first WTC tower.


I'm saying that Bomber pilots expose themselves to far less risk than suicide bombers, and since both acts are acts of cowardice, the terrorist is the braver man because he knows that he has to die to complete his mission.

The American military has an obscene fetish for bombing that dates right back to the second world war.It's a cowards way of intimidating and disrupting your enemy to reduce your own risk in a war.America has a long and proud history of using the dirtiest weapons available and then crying foul when anyone else seeks to acquire them.

Point one...I've seen enough of your posts in this forum to predict how you would react to most lines of debate.

The great sage has spoken. Tell me great sage...what am I thinking now?

Point two......If you had your facts right first up[as in,72 virgins, not 7],it would smooth the flow of the argument

I think I straightened that out. Read a little further in the posts. I'm suprised you didn't know I was going to correct myself.

.Now as far as your question goes your mocking little smiley at the end of the question indicates that you are happy to belittle the faith of these people
Which people are those? The terrorist? Or are you implying that I mock the Muslim faith?


.I believe in their gods as much as I believe in yours.Dying a hero for the sake of George Bush's oil buddies is just as twisted and dumb as dying a hero for your religious beliefs.

Again that is your opinion. I won't try and change it.

Point three.....Sadly you are correct.Most wars are fought for financial or strategic advantage, and are dressed up with religion or patriotism to makre them look less grubby than they really are.

See...we can agree on something.

I'm saying that Bomber pilots expose themselves to far less risk than suicide bombers, and since both acts are acts of cowardice, the terrorist is the braver man because he knows that he has to die to complete his mission.
Braver? How about more foolish? The American military has an obscene fetish for bombing that dates right back to the second world war.It's a cowards way of intimidating and disrupting your enemy to reduce your own risk in a war.America has a long and proud history of using the dirtiest weapons available and then crying foul when anyone else seeks to acquire them.
Do you really think we are so different than your country? Would your countrymen go in on foot and fight hand to hand if bombers were available? If you do then you are fooling yourself.

OK time to get back to the real world.
Later guys.

Braver? How about more foolish?

Do you really think we are so different than your country? Would your countrymen go in on foot and fight hand to hand if bombers were available? If you do then you are fooling yourself.


What do you propose terrorist do? Steal military planes and use them to bomb everyone? The reason they did suicide attacks on WTC, was because that was the only means they had of creating a huge chaotic terrorist attack. So i agree with taranaki, the terrorists had more balls then Bomber Pilots.

What do you propose terrorist do? Steal military planes and use them to bomb everyone?Ohh what the hell...I'll play along.
Yes they should have stolen military planes. A real man would have done that. A marine would have done that.
There ya go. The reason they did suicide attacks on WTC, was because that was the only means they had of creating a huge chaotic terrorist attack. So i agree with taranaki, the terrorists had more balls then Bomber Pilots.And I disagree. I think they all had the same amount of balls. 2 each.
The real difference is that the terrorist have none now while the marines still have theirs intact.

This time I really do have to go.

Later.

Ohh what the hell...I'll play along.
Yes they should have stolen military planes. A real man would have done that. A marine would have done that.
There ya go.And I disagree. I think they all had the same amount of balls. 2 each.
The real difference is that the terrorist have none now while the marines still have theirs intact.

This time I really do have to go.

Later.

Why do you allways take everything at face value? You dont look at what the person is trying to say. You dont even bother to try and understand what the person is saying, you just act sarcastic, and shrug off everything anyone ever says to you.

2.DGB454, you're looking at the situation from one side. How do you think the terrorists are thinking when they detonate a bomb? Sure the way they carry out their war is illegetimate, but what other choice do they have when they are being invaded by the world's super power? They fight their war for their country, you fight your war for your country....what's the difference there? Do you claim to fight wars for the love of the world or for the hate of terrorists then? Do you fight wars to benefit the world or yourself?
Actually a great number of the people fighting aren't fighting for their country. Most of them are Syrians, Iranians, etc etc.

And as far as the comparison between suicide bombers and stealth pilots goes, wouldn't the stealth pilots be the smarter ones? It doesn't take a whole lot of bravery to kill youself nor does it take a lot of brains however the stealth pilots have the advantage of being able to fight another day. Suicide bombers just have to do what they're told, die, and hope that what they were promised holds true. It actually seems a little selfish at least to me.

Actually a great number of the people fighting aren't fighting for their country. Most of them are Syrians, Iranians, etc etc.

And as far as the comparison between suicide bombers and stealth pilots goes, wouldn't the stealth pilots be the smarter ones? It doesn't take a whole lot of bravery to kill youself nor does it take a lot of brains however the stealth pilots have the advantage of being able to fight another day. Suicide bombers just have to do what they're told, die, and hope that what they were promised holds true. It actually seems a little selfish at least to me.
But they all fight for what they believe is to be a good reason. Just like the US is forcing their allies to fight their war.

They think their war is just, you think your war is just. Who's right and who's wrong all depends on who you ask

Why do you allways take everything at face value? You dont look at what the person is trying to say. You dont even bother to try and understand what the person is saying, you just act sarcastic, and shrug off everything anyone ever says to you.

I look but all I ever see is the same tired arguement. "What do you expect them to do?" I expect them to do exactly what they did. Kill people in order to further their twisted beliefs. To put them on some imaginery pedistal and call them heroes is totally ludicrious. It's like saying son of sam was brave because he killed people face to face instead of from a distance. Maybe the reason he killed face to face was because all he could afford was a knife instead of a gun. What do we expect him to do? Steal a gun? Well he didn't so that makes him brave.
Let's make him a hero because he had the guts to face his victims and kill for what he believed in.

My new hero is son of sam. All hail son of sam. I am and forever will be a sammonite. That's my new religion. We will call ourselves the Samsons. Followers of Sam will recieve 57 furry bunnies and 3 virgins (would be more but someone has already taken most of them) in heaven if they kill someone in the name of Sam.

Does that sound twised to you? It should.

But they all fight for what they believe is to be a good reason. Just like the US is forcing their allies to fight their war.

Forcing? I don't get that statement. If we were going to force someone then I would think we would force France. After all we already don't like them.

They think their war is just, you think your war is just. Who's right and who's wrong all depends on who you ask

Very true.

But they all fight for what they believe is to be a good reason. Just like the US is forcing their allies to fight their war.

They think their war is just, you think your war is just. Who's right and who's wrong all depends on who you ask
Umm last time I checked the US isn't FORCING anyone to fight. Remember how Spain pulled out?

You're right, it is a matter of perspective, however I wasn't judging who was right and who was wrong, I was saying that not only are many of the people not fighting for their countries, but to say someone is brave for killing themselves is ludacris

Actually a great number of the people fighting aren't fighting for their country. Most of them are Syrians, Iranians, etc etc.

And as far as the comparison between suicide bombers and stealth pilots goes, wouldn't the stealth pilots be the smarter ones? It doesn't take a whole lot of bravery to kill youself nor does it take a lot of brains however the stealth pilots have the advantage of being able to fight another day. Suicide bombers just have to do what they're told, die, and hope that what they were promised holds true. It actually seems a little selfish at least to me.

Another post full of inaccuracies......

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/08/iraq.main/index.html

According to an official sources,there are an estimated 13-17,000 'insurgents' currently operating against the US .Of those, an estimated 500 are from overseas.

To claim that Most of them are Syrians, Iranians, etc etc. would be akin to me claiming that most of the fighting by the invading forces has been done by the British and the Australians.

I'm interest to know where you get the notion that it doesn't take bravery to kill yourself.Have you ever tried putting yourself in harm's way?It's not as easy as you foolishly want to believe.Human instinct being what it is, you have to be incredibly resolute to complete a suicide mission.If you are mentally unwell enough to want to kill yourself as a mission in itself, you are not going to waste time and effort doing it in a manner that benefits someone else's cause.

If you want to claim that every Marine who got shot in the ass while taking a crap in the desert is a hero, then you should accept that these men are just as brave in their dedication to their mission.

A fighting man is a fighting man, regardless of the traditional propaganda that governments like to heap on their opponents.It doesn't matter which side of the battle they fight on,only how much of themdselves they are prepared to put on the line for their beliefs.

The great sage has spoken. Tell me great sage...what am I thinking now?



You're probably thinking much the same as I am,viz

The other guy is not as smart as he likes to think he is,and I'm winning this argument.
the other guys politics are morally indefensible,and mine are largely honest.

Neither of us is providing much 'evidence' to back our opinions, but consider this....

My argument is that killing other people is wrong.
Your argument is that killing people is acceptable and brave when we do it in the name of our beliefs, but cowardly and wrong when they do it in the name of theirs.

One of us has a massive double standard
So glad it's not me.

"If you're not with us, you're against us"


Yea I'm sure that's not forcing everyone into battle.
And how about, "ooh, those french bastards are pussies because they don't believe us"

And how about, "ooh, those french bastards are pussies because they don't believe us"

you're behind the times,Raz

Apparently, Condosleeza Rice wants a new touchy-feely relationship with Europe.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-02-08-voa50.cfm

"It is time to open a new chapter in our relationship, and a new chapter in our alliance,” she said.“America stands ready to work with Europe on our common agenda, and Europe must stand ready to work with America."

Is this the same America that refused to work with a Europe that opposed the invasion of Iraq on the grounds that the WMD excuse was demonstrably untrue? Is this the same America that delighted in smearing the french with accusations of cowardice and stuupid stunts like 'freedom fries'?

It would appear that Condoleeza wants to rewrite history before the ink on the first dtraft is even finished. Bush and his warmonger buddies have behaved appalingly to their allies ,and are now trying to extend an olive branch in such a manner that they are seen to be blameless...

How about the American government apologise for its revolting lack of international diplomacy, get the fuck out of Iraq and pay compensation to the Iraqi people for their losses before trying to repair their credibility with the rest of the world?

They may want to patch things up with Europe but the fact that the US acted liek a bunch of children is inexcusable.



France should tell bush and liza to shove it

You're probably thinking much the same as I am,viz Doubtful. I try not to stoop that low. The other guy is not as smart as he likes to think he is,and I'm winning this argument. The other guy may not be as smart as he thinks he is but at least he isn't deluding himself into thinking he is winning when he is actually looking foolish. the other guys politics are morally indefensible,and mine are largely honest. Are you trying to convince me or yourself? I think it's yourself. Neither of us is providing much 'evidence' to back our opinions, but consider this.... My argument is that killing other people is wrong. Is it? I thought your arguement was that terrorist were brave. Pick a side and stick with it. Your argument is that killing people is acceptable and brave when we do it in the name of our beliefs, but cowardly and wrong when they do it in the name of theirs. Please point me in the direction of that statement I made. One of us has a massive double standard
So glad it's not me.And I am glad I can see through your BS .I have never seen someone so full of himself on any other forum I have ever been on.

When someone doesn't agree with you then just claim that person said something he didn't say or just imply he means something that he didn't even hint at? Implications and false accusations. This is what someone who is loosing an argument usually resorts to aren't they?

You have put yourself on that same imaginery pedistal you put the terrorist on... Don't look down.