Please Sticky

and rename "Does Your Car Stutter?

1. Replace your plugs
-It's cheap, don't bother checking them, just replace them.
2. Replace your plug wires with 9mm wires.
-9MM WIRES
-9MM WIRES
-9MM WIRES even if you have to special order them online.
3. If your CEL is on, pull codes.
-AutoZone does it for free.
4. Have your coil pack checked.
5. Replace your fuel filter.
6. Have your O2 Sensor(s) checked.

If anyone has anything to add, just list it/them and I'll edit this post. If you disagree with order, just put in what order you see fit and I'll adjust this post to compromise between the differing opinions.

I don't care if your a mechanic or not. Just because you are, doesn't mean you, or your opinions, will get any special treatment from me.

why do people who have car troubles are so hard headed about replaceing wires? even if its not 9mm wires. time and time again people write in we suggest replace the wires and they say no it cant be that.

btw jetlee what is the autozone part number for the 9mm wires for our 2.0

I'm always open minded about changing plug wires but - I've never had a problem fixed by mearly replacing spark plug wires!

In addition, I don't even recall a time where changing the wires improved performance much (always stock engines). Every time I have replaced wires to try to isolate a problem, the actual problem turned out to be a bad (cracked or carbonized) rotor cap, start module, ignition coil, etc. And if your plug wires are so old that they have spark leakage, then your other ignition devices are usually the same age and condition, so at least the distributor cap & rotor should be replaced along with the plug wires. The spark plugs should be checked and regapped, too. (Since todays electronic ignitions create such a strong & clean spark, the plugs have a 200K to 300K mile lifetime so I haven't needed to change plugs on any of my cars for years).

If you guys have some specific examples of what symtoms you have had with your engines that were fixed just by changing plug wires, I for one, would really like to hear them. In order to add to my knowledge base.

THANKS!

:>

I'm always open minded about changing plug wires but - I've never had a problem fixed by mearly replacing spark plug wires!

In addition, I don't even recall a time where changing the wires improved performance much (always stock engines). Every time I have replaced wires to try to isolate a problem, the actual problem turned out to be a bad (cracked or carbonized) rotor cap, start module, ignition coil, etc. And if your plug wires are so old that they have spark leakage, then your other ignition devices are usually the same age and condition, so at least the distributor cap & rotor should be replaced along with the plug wires. The spark plugs should be checked and regapped, too. (Since todays electronic ignitions create such a strong & clean spark, the plugs have a 200K to 300K mile lifetime so I haven't needed to change plugs on any of my cars for years).

If you guys have some specific examples of what symtoms you have had with your engines that were fixed just by changing plug wires, I for one, would really like to hear them. In order to add to my knowledge base.

THANKS!

:>

Actually I did have a problem just happend to be fixed by replacing wires. I had a no start condition where the car would crank but not fire. First thing I tried was plug wires, reason i decided plug wires first was I had opened the hood while the car was running I grabbed a plug wire to reset it in the wire loom. When doing so I got zapped. (when checked at night time I could see it arcing out of the wire). However the no start condidtion wasnt solved by replaceing the wires what replacement inadvertantly fixed was a "bucking" after shifting into 2nd gear. after plug wire replacement it hasnt bucked.

So my resply to your statement is yes it can fix a problem. Just not the one I started out repairing.

btw the cure for the no start was a new computer.

Oh god, do you REALLY wanna read my 5 pages worth?! Cause I REALLY dont feel like diggin those outta the stacks

EDIT* - Here.....Initial Thread (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=214008)
Continuation (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=254294)
There's some reading material for ya. :loser:

yeah, I had to only replace wires before. the tips to one of them got corroded and my car was misfireing, I go to check the wires and when I pull that one out, the plug just snapped off. I replaced them of course and the misfire went away. I would say at least checking wires if not just replaceing them is a good idea, but if you just replaced your wires not too long ago, look for a different problem, but if you cant rememebr when the last time you checked or replaced your wires, could be a place to start. so I can add to the list of just wires being a problem

My car ran fine on the freeway and startup, but when going up a hill it chugged and missed like it was running out of fuel. I also noticed that after it did that the whole car smelled like gasoline. Changed the wires and presto, no more problems.

My '67 Mustang had an off-idle stumble that I just attributed to the large camshaft. I also thought I had an exhaust leak because there was a loud ticking noise. One night I happened to look under the hood and the ticking was the plug wire arcing to the exhaust header. Changed one wire - no more ticking, and no more off-idle stumble.

Good luck getting a sticky, I haven't seen one and don't expect one. We can't even get a sticky on how to check your EEC-IV codes in less time than it takes to post a question here.

I'm always open minded about changing plug wires but - I've never had a problem fixed by mearly replacing spark plug wires!

In addition, I don't even recall a time where changing the wires improved performance much (always stock engines). Every time I have replaced wires to try to isolate a problem, the actual problem turned out to be a bad (cracked or carbonized) rotor cap, start module, ignition coil, etc. And if your plug wires are so old that they have spark leakage, then your other ignition devices are usually the same age and condition, so at least the distributor cap & rotor should be replaced along with the plug wires. The spark plugs should be checked and regapped, too. (Since todays electronic ignitions create such a strong & clean spark, the plugs have a 200K to 300K mile lifetime so I haven't needed to change plugs on any of my cars for years).

If you guys have some specific examples of what symtoms you have had with your engines that were fixed just by changing plug wires, I for one, would really like to hear them. In order to add to my knowledge base.

THANKS!

:>

Jim@HiTek,
I agree. All problems can not be solved by 9MM wires.....It never has been stated the type of 9MM wires that are being recommended i.e. solid strand, stainless, graphite supression etc. As you know, the wrong type of wires can be more harmful to electronic ignitions and onboard computer systems by EMI/RFI interference. I have never seen a 'stock' ignition 'fry' a sparkplug wire. Most of the difficulties I've seen with spark plug wires have been due to not being clean causing mis-fires, and cross firing and as you said high voltage conductive paths or damage. Sparkplug wires on the electronic engines are designed to have a lot of resistance and is part of the circuit design. Using low resistance spiral wound spark plug wire may cause erratic idle, high-rpm misfire, engine run-on, power drop off at certain rpm levels, abnormal combustion and probable damage to the ignition and/or ignition coil. The resistance of the replacement wires should be within specifications for the vehicle.
It will be interesting to see if you receive a technical response.

Alvin

I am aware of the higher resistance of modern plug wires being essential for the proper operation of the electronic ignition system, so, like you A. Souphound, I wonder about using a 9mm wire in place of a 8mm. Seems like more current would flow to the plugs (less resistance due to more CM's [circular mils, and a mil=0.001"] implied for the wire). I've never seen a plug wire of larger outer diameter of the insulation that didn't have more CM's for the wire. And the resistance of the wire decreases by the 'cube' of the diameter of the wire. This could cause excess current and would easily be called for by an excessive gap in the plugs...not an uncommon condition. So I would expect to see an excessive failure rate of ignition moduals if I changed my plug wires from 8mm to 9mm. But, that's just IMO.

If I were forced to use 9mm, I would gap my plugs slightly less then called for, just to be on the safe side. I would not want to be up in the boonies when my ignition modual failed due to excessive internal heating. But that's just me.

Other then Jet-Lee's problem as linked, most bad spark plug wires exhibit a midrange problem, like missing and poor power response at around 25-45 MPH and accelerating. I would say 90% show this symptom. Nearly all engines are happy to run (poorly) sending a spark or two each rev to the frame ground like that caused by bad wires. It's rare indeed for the wires to be sooooo bad that nearly every spark goes to ground causing a stall. Infers very bad maintainance.

:)

Plugs,wires are maintenance issues.
What TOO often happens is that WHEN there is a problem.The plugs and wires get blamed.AND changed.Sometimes...but more often than not this is only part of the problem.True..they may fix the problem..maybe for a little while..before other problems develop.OR they may do nothing at all for the original problem.THEN with new plugs,wires it is on to something else.WHEN..lol..new plugs,wires a while ago may have prevented the problem in the first place.
What HAS happened..TIME and time again..especially with more and more electronics in the ignition system..is that people run plugs until there is like a.100 gap..OR they are simply finished.Ditto for wires that are dilled.The (un-neccessary)extra work going into firing this takes it's toll on the rest of the system.Ford's ignition systems have generally been pretty good..and hot..since the "Duraspark" era.BUT! this also leads to poor maintenance..due to the fact that they will go so far under higher loads from poor maintenance..before they cave.
Do a reserve test..even manual or with a plug tester.OR on a scope and you may be surprised that after too long a period of NO maintenance..that NOW there are other weak areas in the system..AND you're gonna be in for MORE ignition system work.
Plugs and wires are relatively cheap and easy..as opposed to ending up dicking around and tracing and fixing a "weak spark situation".Especially if it turns to a "no-start" on a cold damp morning.

Agreed.

hey what was the part number for those 9MM wires from autozone ... or anyware else i can go... please save my car

I called them yesterday and they claim they don't carry them anymore. I told them I got mine there, and they're just like "Well I don't know sir". They now have some 8MM double silicone's that they claim are just as good. I dunno, but I have no need to change.

As for you other guys, just stfu. This has been tried and true more times than not. People come on here complaining about their car stuttering, checkin vacuum lines, checkin fuel system, come to find out it's the damned plugs. LET THEM CHANGE THEM! If they obviously don't remember the last time they were changed, then it's a good to change them. Wires go before plugs do. I don't give a flying fuck if your some big hot-shot NASCAR mechanic, this has been tried and true enough times with NO ILL EFFECTS reported that it is worth doing first thing. My car was out of comissionfor about 2 months because of this. Because EVERYONE (exception of Nova) was tellin me everything OTHER THAN plugs and wires. I spent EVERY day under that car checkin this that and the other, and it was the friggin WIRES. A FORD DEALER told me that. They said the ONLY thing wrong with it was that it needed new wires. They would have known if my coil pack was bad causing my wires to fry, but no, it was my WIRES. Get off your fucking mechanic high horses and welcome to online forums, where backyard mechanics have seen more things tried and true than you have.

[/rant]

I am aware of the higher resistance of modern plug wires being essential for the proper operation of the electronic ignition system, so, like you A. Souphound, I wonder about using a 9mm wire in place of a 8mm. Seems like more current would flow to the plugs (less resistance due to more CM's [circular mils, and a mil=0.001"] implied for the wire). I've never seen a plug wire of larger outer diameter of the insulation that didn't have more CM's for the wire. And the resistance of the wire decreases by the 'cube' of the diameter of the wire. This could cause excess current and would easily be called for by an excessive gap in the plugs...not an uncommon condition. So I would expect to see an excessive failure rate of ignition moduals if I changed my plug wires from 8mm to 9mm. But, that's just IMO.

If I were forced to use 9mm, I would gap my plugs slightly less then called for, just to be on the safe side. I would not want to be up in the boonies when my ignition modual failed due to excessive internal heating. But that's just me.

Other then Jet-Lee's problem as linked, most bad spark plug wires exhibit a midrange problem, like missing and poor power response at around 25-45 MPH and accelerating. I would say 90% show this symptom. Nearly all engines are happy to run (poorly) sending a spark or two each rev to the frame ground like that caused by bad wires. It's rare indeed for the wires to be sooooo bad that nearly every spark goes to ground causing a stall. Infers very bad maintainance.

:)

I agree with both you and Arnoldtheskier in that the root cause is poor maintenance. Most of the problems I see in diagnostics is due to poor maintenance that causes more problems down the line and becomes noticeable from a driveablity standpoint. The studder appears to be from a lean mixture. I suggest that any component in the ignition 'system' which causes improper combustion... plugs, ignition wires etc. causes the 02 sensor to see a 'rich mixture' in the exhaust head pipe. The signal to the EEC (combined with other sensors) calls for the a lean air/fuel mixture. Depending on the amount of time this condition is allowed to go on without proper maintenance, determines the extent of the 'fix'. Wide sparkplug gaps lead to mis-fires. Mis-fires lead to poor combustion, and so forth (Domino effect). I've read several accounts on this forum of those who changed plugs and wires and got a short term improvement only to go back to the same problem after a short time of a week or two.
All the best,
Alvin

Some of todays engines have sooo many complicated electronic things on them that it's fun to try and figure out symptoms. Bad maintenance is the root cause of many of a 10 yo cars problems and step by step diagnostics will show up numerous problems with sensors, wire connectors, air vane baffels, Oxy sensors, etc.

But trying a fix like changing the designed plug wires from 8mm to 9mm doesn't sound like a good approach to either fix an existing problem or to diagnose one. If one of my techs wanted to do it on his own vehical, sure, but don't even think about it on a clients.

yea, jet-lee, i called thme today too, they said they dont have thme, my car was driving SOO bad today i didnt even care how thick they were, i went to a local auto parts store and got some performance 7mm... my car runs great now. i was supirsed ... my old wires were shot ! thanks for the advice, i would have skipped over them, replacing sensors and what not.. you saved a poor ass kids ass

Once again, I thought I'd gotten away from all the pig-headedness when I decided to spend less time in COT and Forced Induction. Hell, COT is a cakewalk compared to what this place has become. Fuck all a you, hope you don't see me in person cause it wont be for long, see ya laytr, I'll only be here if I ever need help with my car, only after checking the other forums first. Fuck me if I try to help anyone else on this board, all you fucknuts do is and tell how wrong people are. LOOK ABOVE!!! PLUG WIRES FIXED IT! Buncha fuckin ass-hats.

Some of todays engines have sooo many complicated electronic things on them that it's fun to try and figure out symptoms. Bad maintenance is the root cause of many of a 10 yo cars problems and step by step diagnostics will show up numerous problems with sensors, wire connectors, air vane baffels, Oxy sensors, etc.

But trying a fix like changing the designed plug wires from 8mm to 9mm doesn't sound like a good approach to either fix an existing problem or to diagnose one. If one of my techs wanted to do it on his own vehical, sure, but don't even think about it on a clients.

I agree, once you start deviating from the OEM wires a logical approach would be to compare the OEM wires to those considered "High Performance Wires" I have tried to do that, and the information is almost impossible to find. As you said, the difference between 8 and 9MM is approx. .004" The question/s I ask myself: Is the .004" located in the jacket material, inner braid, insulation reactive layer, core, or a combination of each component? This information is not readily available, and therefore I wouldn't make a change without scientific data to support it. You said it, maintenance is the key because we realize sparkplug wires go bad from vibration, increased resistance, insulation breakdown, corroded and broken connectors.
Enjoyed the exchange of ideas.

All the best,
Alvin

Now Jet, don't get your panties in a bunch. And your insecurities are showing.

We were mearly discussing the merits of replacing, whether good or bad, 8mm wires as designed by the engineering department of a major car manufacturer, with aftermarket 9mm wires. The question in my mind was, "Would that cause excess failure of the ignition modual because of the possible increased current?"

And as far as my initial question goes, since I asked, there are at least 4 people on this forum who have said they fixed their engine problems by just replacing wires. (Thanks everyone!)

We see that, and it's now in my database and will be remembered (or at least read once in a while). And one of those stories reminded me of an occasion that I'd forgotten about where I'd fixed a rough running engine with new wires (broken spark plug snap clip). So that makes 5.

To paraphrase you, 'This is a forum and I'll say what I want to.'

No one I know wants you to leave this forum, but if you do, don't let the door hit your a** on the way out.

Happy driving!