Avionixx, Cadence, jl which would you choose?

I'm triing to figure out which amp to use for my high end for a pair of componants, and a pair of coaxials. I want quality sound with clarity and some loudness. Which amp would you choose and would you go with 2 or 4 channel. And how many watts should I go?

Avionxx or Cadence

depends on your budget really
avionixx for low-med budget
cadence for med-high budget
jl for high budget

actually I think it would be a tossup between cadence and jl in the high budget section, jl's are just everywhere, sometimes it's nice to be different.

Yea not that avionixx is a bad amp, but I'd rather have cadence or JL.

Jl all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!b



:D

WTF where the hell'd u come from.

he posted a few times lately here an there

I looked on the Cadence website, some of the amp model numders looked like old audiobahn amps. I know there was another comapny that was a "sister brand" to audiobahn - the two owners were like brothers.

I looked on the Cadence website, some of the amp model numders looked like old audiobahn amps. I know there was another comapny that was a "sister brand" to audiobahn - the two owners were like brothers.
Yep, had a Cadence system come in for me to diagnose some problems. I was not not impressed. Cadence sure has fell of the deep end compared to what they use to be like in the early 90's.

I'd go with Cadence myself, I'm running a 200w (Q2000) cadence amp on my components right now and I'm happy with it, and its one of there lower end lines. I'v never had any experience with JL amps, or any Avionixx products though.

JL has good amps. but they are pricey (as all things JL) but the kool hting is they have variable line voltage. so that a signle power supply can supply the given wattage to a variety of different loads. like a JL 500.1 can supply 500w@ 2, 4, and 6ohms... this makes matching amp power and componet impeadence easy. their mono block amps also have a 2nd gain controll that can be installed to where you can match your bass with the music you are listening to. say you are listneing to rap, heavy bass. you turn the amp up. then you move to heavy metal, you'd rather hear the guritar over the bass drum so you turn the bass down. works like an EQ for an entire range, not just 2/3rds of an octave or w/e.
Cadence is a great company, but they are also a bit pricey. and i have no experence with avionxx though i have seen installs, but never heard them at any particular volume.

JL isn't regulated above 4ohm btw
and a LOT of companies have a remote gain control, I'd say most monoblocks out there do, and even on the ones that don't you can still use the headunit's sub out control to turn it up and down

my PG amp has the remote bass thing ..... the front 2 channels power the mid/tweets and the rear powers the 2 subs. It has a 20 dB swing, so you set it about where you like the music with the knob in the midway position - gives you about + or - 10 dB to play with.

i thought they where regulated to 6ohm. arent the W3v2's dual 3ohm?

i thought they where regulated to 6ohm. arent the W3v2's dual 3ohm?

1.5-4

dual 3 in parallel goes to 1.5

WOAH Audiobahn is in not Cadence they're not sister companies or anything...... and if you've had a cadence amp fail please share the details because I haven't seen it......nor have i EVER seen a cadence refurb. Jesus there are some things better then directed....... cadence being one of them.

you would be surprised about who makes what these days ...... and most are made in the same elctronics houses. As far as amps go - the make or break part is the power supply, it's what seperates the players from the wannabes

Even if they are brothers I would have a very hard time believing that the amps were made in the same location or having anything to do with each other.

i gotta agree with paul on this one. just like subwoofers, many are built from the same buildhouse and uses the same platform because why bother spending more money on a different schematic when one can do the same work if not better?


Example would be the Clarion apx-series i believe and the Arc audio cxl/xxk. same internals and design. the only difference is that they switched components from good quality to "high" quality, but i doubt its going to make much of a difference when you have a crap load of road noise interferring.

Another amp would be the popular JBL 1200.1 and the Lanzar vibe 1200d. the exact same internals. Difference? The JBL had 2 transformers whereas the lanzar had only 1. Sometimes the companies will take one design and will beef it up to meet their spec. :)

I'm with bumpinstang77 on this one, compairing audiobawn and cadence is like compairing apples to very well designed high tech top of the line apples.

Hell even if they come from the same place they are still totally different amps with all different parts.........how many Audiobahns fail??? Audiobahns put out rated power AT BEST........ compare internals not very similiar. Now how many Cadence amps fail......yea...

So your saying I can buy a clarion apx series instead of an arc, and have close to the same amp for half the money. Do they're stats vary, because the clarion is rated less that the Arc?

So your saying I can buy a clarion apx series instead of an arc, and have close to the same amp for half the money. Do they're stats vary, because the clarion is rated less that the Arc?


good luck finding the apx if they are still around.


the difference is that some of the parts are "higher" quality and in some case, the exact amp. i do not remember the stats but they should be very close.


but i like the way the arc looks :D

1.5-4

dual 3 in parallel goes to 1.5

coulda' sworn JL had them regulated to 6ohm. i thought they had it that way so that the W3v2's could be wired series or parallel (JL tries to make thoes idiot installers, like around my town, they sell their great product to not screw up as bad) and it would give the same wattage. well i geuss im wrong.

only time i have seen 6ohm as a configuration on a JL subwoofer was on their w6 subwoofers. they came in dual 6.



the R.I.P system is an innovation, not a marketing tool.

lol JL kicks arse. Too damn expensive tho.

i use to hate JL audio because everyone thought they were the best and i didn't want to hop on the bandwagon, but the light has shown on me and i learned to appreciate a product because of what it is regardless or how much it cost, or whatever. If it's good, then its' good :D


afterall, hoping on the bandwagon implies you're riding with other people because of X idea. In this case, i ilke Jl because of Y. so i'm not jumping on the wagon after all. muahahha.



ok on topic..

i like the product, hate the company. over marketed and over priced. actually the w0 and w1 and w3 and w6 are all poopoo. all of their amps are good and they have some pretty damn nice componets. but the only woofers that are good are the W3v2, the W6v2, and the w7. the 3 most expensive. and you dont get what you pay for. but it is a good product and if you can get sponsored or something. go for it. but i wouldnt pay $700 to have a w7 and have it under warranty when i can pay $435 for a brahma 15 or $440 for a XXX and have them be under warranty....

um NO everythin elow a dub7 is not poop...........w6v2's are considered dome fo the best SQ subs ever..... w3v2's are along shiva lines and w0's are an awsome sub for a budget and not wanting to go online.

Back to the clarion and arc issue. Some of the clarion apx amps that I'm seeing are marine amps. I just want more light on this. I've located a clarion apx 4 channel amp, and will buy it if you are very sure that it is very similar to the arc xxk series.

i like the product, hate the company. over marketed and over priced. actually the w0 and w1 and w3 and w6 are all poopoo. all of their amps are good and they have some pretty damn nice componets. but the only woofers that are good are the W3v2, the W6v2, and the w7. the 3 most expensive. and you dont get what you pay for. but it is a good product and if you can get sponsored or something. go for it. but i wouldnt pay $700 to have a w7 and have it under warranty when i can pay $435 for a brahma 15 or $440 for a XXX and have them be under warranty....


overmarketed? overpriced? Care to give examples of such?

I don't know about you, but w6s are not considered poopoo. They were built and sold for 10 straight years and i believe they are the highest selling subwoofer up today in terms of total volume. A 1994 subwoofer that are better than many of today's sub, I think that's an accomplishment.


You can buy a W7 for $500 under warranty if you find the right shop. $700 is about retail and hardly anyone who knows what they are doing would pay that much for the W7.

you don't get what you pay for, but i guess that's just a personal thing. At what amount of money do you have to spend to get X performance without the "you don't get what you pay for" idea?

um NO everythin elow a dub7 is not poop...........w6v2's are considered dome fo the best SQ subs ever..... w3v2's are along shiva lines and w0's are an awsome sub for a budget and not wanting to go online.

Did i not day the V2's are good? jesus.
W0's good on a low budget? $109 MSRP... for a 10... :eek7: when you can pay $15 more and get a shiva which will be round abouts the w3v2's? id rather have an ID 10....


JL Over marketed...very...if you say otherwise you havent been to an audio show in the south in a long time. who has the biggest booths and most elaborate installs? Eclipse, Alpine, and JL. Why? because they can afford it because they are overpriced. Eclipse is good but there is something about their sond my ears dont agree with (talking about mids/highs. head units are great).

W7 over priced? yes. My local dealer will sell you a JL w713 for $500. if they install it with a $150 installation charge plus material cost... so far the cheapest authorized dealer i have seen selling W7's under warranty was $650. 700-800 is the norm. and like i said. why do that when i can get a louder woofer with the same SQ for hundreds less :p .

W6's good? not really. good 10 years ago, yes. we are talking about the here and now. $249 MSRP for a 10... Adire koda 10 is $229. the koda will well outperform a w6. though just a little bit quieter than the w6v2 which is $379 MSRP. thats more expensive than a brahma 10... sure not everything is MSRP. but your never going to get more than 25-30% tops off from a reputable authorized dealer.

the w1v2's are ok, but id like to see the prie on them. probably more expensive than a shiva or an RE and will be outperformed by a shiva and an RE.... Like i said. good product. but over marketed and over priced...

How do you think the ascedent atlas fit into all this. Are the as good as the se or better. Or how do they compare with the w6?

The atlas isnt even close to the price range of the driver's discussed above. Avalanche is more of a comparison, an I would take the Avalanche over the SE in no time, it used XBL^2. I think the Avalanche gives the w7 a run for its money at HALF the price

What would you compare the atlas with. I'm considering buying it do to my bugdet or lack of. At 145 it sounds like a great sub for the money, but I haven't heard one.

atlas and koda are along the same lines. the koda may slightly outperform the atlas. both use XBL^2.

I just got back from a shop and was playin with a dub7 and it will murder an avalanche trust me. dub7's have TONS of suspension travael. Ohh yea the shop worker guy had never heard of RE yea I showed him up with my two sexxx 12's off 150rms each......he had 2 l5's sealed with a kx1200.1......his jaw dropped when he heard my shit it was B-E-A-utiful.

I just got back from a shop and was playin with a dub7 and it will murder an avalanche trust me. dub7's have TONS of suspension travael. Ohh yea the shop worker guy had never heard of RE yea I showed him up with my two sexxx 12's off 150rms each......he had 2 l5's sealed with a kx1200.1......his jaw dropped when he heard my shit it was B-E-A-utiful.

DOOD, pyramid hyper pro's will kill all you have! Get off that shit

NG

Get off pyramids nuts dude. super blues are better n e damn ways they go BOOM even more so then my beloved PUPS!

I just got back from a shop and was playin with a dub7 and it will murder an avalanche trust me. dub7's have TONS of suspension travael. Ohh yea the shop worker guy had never heard of RE yea I showed him up with my two sexxx 12's off 150rms each......he had 2 l5's sealed with a kx1200.1......his jaw dropped when he heard my shit it was B-E-A-utiful.

That's what I plan on doing at this local audio shop against my friend's beloved L7 12's on 500w each. Nobody there has heard of RE or Adire, so I'll take some pics as they beg to see my setup.

Did i not day the V2's are good? jesus.
W0's good on a low budget? $109 MSRP... for a 10... :eek7: when you can pay $15 more and get a shiva which will be round abouts the w3v2's? id rather have an ID 10....




sure you can get a shiva for an extra $15, but what if you need a dual 4ohm subwoofer? Or perhaps a dual 2ohm? The shiva is limited to dual 8ohm unless they made a d4 that i wasn't informed of. "rather" is such a subjective word that it doesn't validate and statement. I would "rather" have 20 pyramid super blue sub for only $15 more than a 10" RE SX. doesn't mean it's better..so far..no factual statement have been made to say why one sub is better than the other.




JL Over marketed...very...if you say otherwise you havent been to an audio show in the south in a long time. who has the biggest booths and most elaborate installs? Eclipse, Alpine, and JL. Why? because they can afford it because they are overpriced. Eclipse is good but there is something about their sond my ears dont agree with (talking about mids/highs. head units are great).

nope. They are not overmarketing...perhaps its the other way around and other companies do not market enough? There is no standard to say who's overmarketing or not. ALpine, JL, Eclipse, etc all have money, and its not overmarketing if they are just advertising their products. Now if say Audiomobile were to spend their money to boast there subs with false information of some sort, that would be overmarketing, to get something that most people desire; money. In jl's case, they are just advertising.


W7 over priced? yes. My local dealer will sell you a JL w713 for $500. if they install it with a $150 installation charge plus material cost... so far the cheapest authorized dealer i have seen selling W7's under warranty was $650. 700-800 is the norm. and like i said. why do that when i can get a louder woofer with the same SQ for hundreds less :p .

Then don't get the subwoofer installed if they are going to charge that much. If your dealer is charging that much, then it's their fault, not JL Audio's fault. The dealer sets the price above msrp and installation cost is subject to change upon themselves. JL audio does not control how much they can install it for. As far as SQ go, the w7 has it beat, maybe not too much, but enough to say distortion is lower. At 10% THD, the w7 is able to get louder than the brahma, magnum, etc..Sound quality is objective, not subjective.



W6's good? not really. good 10 years ago, yes. we are talking about the here and now. $249 MSRP for a 10... Adire koda 10 is $229. the koda will well outperform a w6. though just a little bit quieter than the w6v2 which is $379 MSRP. thats more expensive than a brahma 10... sure not everything is MSRP. but your never going to get more than 25-30% tops off from a reputable authorized dealer.

the w6 is up to part with the IDQ, shiva, infinity kappa perfect, alpine type R, etc.

$249 MSRP for a 10. cheap? not really. Good for a 10 year old sub 10 years ago, yes. we are talking about here and now. W6 were discontinued awhile ago, so an msrp price does not exist for it. To some people, the w6v2s are better than the brahma, to others, its the opposite. Neither sub is better than the other. Price goes with quality for the most part, but that doesn't mean everything below it is cheaper in quality. I can say the shiva is overpriced compared to the Elemental Designs kv.2 series. But on what ground is it better than the shiva? just because of the price or what? Doesn't make sense to me to say X sub sounds better than Y sub so therefore X sub is overall better. Doesn't work like that.


the w1v2's are ok, but id like to see the prie on them. probably more expensive than a shiva or an RE and will be outperformed by a shiva and an RE.... Like i said. good product. but over marketed and over priced...[/QUOTE]


On what does the shiva and the RE outperform the w1v2? And i'm not talking price.....

sure you can get a shiva for an extra $15, but what if you need a dual 4ohm subwoofer? Or perhaps a dual 2ohm? The shiva is limited to dual 8ohm unless they made a d4 that i wasn't informed of. "rather" is such a subjective word that it doesn't validate and statement. I would "rather" have 20 pyramid super blue sub for only $15 more than a 10" RE SX. doesn't mean it's better..so far..no factual statement have been made to say why one sub is better than the other.





nope. They are not overmarketing...perhaps its the other way around and other companies do not market enough? There is no standard to say who's overmarketing or not. ALpine, JL, Eclipse, etc all have money, and its not overmarketing if they are just advertising their products. Now if say Audiomobile were to spend their money to boast there subs with false information of some sort, that would be overmarketing, to get something that most people desire; money. In jl's case, they are just advertising.



Then don't get the subwoofer installed if they are going to charge that much. If your dealer is charging that much, then it's their fault, not JL Audio's fault. The dealer sets the price above msrp and installation cost is subject to change upon themselves. JL audio does not control how much they can install it for. As far as SQ go, the w7 has it beat, maybe not too much, but enough to say distortion is lower. At 10% THD, the w7 is able to get louder than the brahma, magnum, etc..Sound quality is objective, not subjective.




the w6 is up to part with the IDQ, shiva, infinity kappa perfect, alpine type R, etc.

$249 MSRP for a 10. cheap? not really. Good for a 10 year old sub 10 years ago, yes. we are talking about here and now. W6 were discontinued awhile ago, so an msrp price does not exist for it. To some people, the w6v2s are better than the brahma, to others, its the opposite. Neither sub is better than the other. Price goes with quality for the most part, but that doesn't mean everything below it is cheaper in quality. I can say the shiva is overpriced compared to the Elemental Designs kv.2 series. But on what ground is it better than the shiva? just because of the price or what? Doesn't make sense to me to say X sub sounds better than Y sub so therefore X sub is overall better. Doesn't work like that.


the w1v2's are ok, but id like to see the prie on them. probably more expensive than a shiva or an RE and will be outperformed by a shiva and an RE.... Like i said. good product. but over marketed and over priced...


On what does the shiva and the RE outperform the w1v2? And i'm not talking price.....[/QUOTE]

1.) the MSRP on a w7 is $999
2.) $500 is 50% of $999 still cost more than a Brahma 15 and a XXX 15
3.) Both the brahma 15 and XXX 15 will get louder than the W7. why? surface area and xmax. yes the w7 has hella lotta xmax. but then agian so do the brahma and XXX. the extra few mm of xmax that the w7 have are not enough to compnesate for thegreater surface area of the brahma and XXX. and SQ is nearly equal (not just my ears saying this).
4.) The shiva is known to have great SQ and will hit SPL levels near that of a W3v2. how in gods name do you think that a w1v2 will touch the shiva SPL wise if the w3v2 is made to be better than the w1v2.
5.) say what you want, i dont care. im tired of argueing with someone who talks like an angry JL dealer. you dont even give the XXX props for what it is. at least i compliment JL for making a good product, but also an expensive product. you obviously look at numbers and JL's claims and not what you hear. IMO JL needs to make a larger W7, i would barely call a 13" woofer a sub woofer. if the w7's price went down into the 400's and JL made a 15. i would be behind JL 100%. but untill i see this happen, i will stick with RE, ID, Adire, etc...

5.) say what you want, i dont care. im tired of argueing with someone who talks like an angry JL dealer. you dont even give the XXX props for what it is. at least i compliment JL for making a good product, but also an expensive product. you obviously look at numbers and JL's claims and not what you hear. IMO JL needs to make a larger W7, i would barely call a 13" woofer a sub woofer. if the w7's price went down into the 400's and JL made a 15. i would be behind JL 100%. but untill i see this happen, i will stick with RE, ID, Adire, etc...

I think gsteg has had his fair share of all types of equipment, in fact I know he has! :)

I hate JL honestly...but you can't knock the W7. It IS the woofer to beat, it's what people COMPARE their XXX's, Brahma's, Magnums to. It is a hell of a woofer...but i'll never pay the retail price for one! But, we'll see what happens when the new XXX comes out... :)

NG

u mean the new RE sub naoh!!! not the new xxx oh well I'm sure someone isn't over here.....lol..... and no a brahma will not get louder then a w7 of the same size....do you know how much fucking suspension travel them fuckers have? OKAY

HEHEHEHEHEH

NG

How's the XXX 15" compare to a W7? I'm starting to wish I waited for this new RE subwoofer. Sounds mean.

well considering dub7's aren't made in 15's and the extra power handling it shouldn't have a problem taking them

Well...

As in ALL THINGS AUDIO!
Follow the golden rule MIKE!!

It's all in the install...

NO ONE can tell you which will win...period! So don't be fooled. Also, the radiating cone are on the 13.5 and the shear displacement are AT LEAST equal to that of an 15XXX. So...install...install...install...

NG

Jesus how many times to i have to say the w7 is a good woofer. and did i not say Brahma 15? oh thats right i did. did i not explain why? yes they have like 35mm one way linear xmax (that is what i heard, you cant find true TS parameters worth a damn on the net. not even on JLaudio.com) thats nearly as much +- xmax as DD has suspension travel on their 9500's. and did i not say if they made a 15 i would like it. everyone is taking what i say in blowing it up out of proportion.

Noah..... yes i know that DAMMIT but in in optimum installs i think the XXX would take it...... they both have 32mm and i think the xxx has a little bit more cone area.

1.) the MSRP on a w7 is $999


if anyone is paying retail for these things, then that person has the problem. Local shops everywhere down where i live has it WAY below $1000.


2.) $500 is 50% of $999 still cost more than a Brahma 15 and a XXX 15[/quote]

13w7 is not made to compete with the 15" brahma or XXX. Some random dude out on the interweb decided to stir up JL's biggest w7 against adire's biggest brahma and therefore led to the development of the 13w7 vs the 15" brahma.


3.) Both the brahma 15 and XXX 15 will get louder than the W7. why? surface area and xmax. yes the w7 has hella lotta xmax. but then agian so do the brahma and XXX. the extra few mm of xmax that the w7 have are not enough to compnesate for thegreater surface area of the brahma and XXX. and SQ is nearly equal (not just my ears saying this).

see above


4.) The shiva is known to have great SQ and will hit SPL levels near that of a W3v2. how in gods name do you think that a w1v2 will touch the shiva SPL wise if the w3v2 is made to be better than the w1v2.

You never know what can happen with products. SPL is almost unpredictable. Who's to say the w1v2 can't trail the w3v2? How is the shiva better just because it gets louder? Neither subwoofers were designed for SPL. Come to think of it, the 15W6 is suppose to be higher end than the w3, but it has been shown that the 15w3 will get louder without busting itself open. Yet, the w3 doesn't have the sound quality of the w6. You can't compare one sub against another because of one other sub.


5.) say what you want, i dont care. im tired of argueing with someone who talks like an angry JL dealer. you dont even give the XXX props for what it is. at least i compliment JL for making a good product, but also an expensive product. you obviously look at numbers and JL's claims and not what you hear. IMO JL needs to make a larger W7, i would barely call a 13" woofer a sub woofer. if the w7's price went down into the 400's and JL made a 15. i would be behind JL 100%. but untill i see this happen, i will stick with RE, ID, Adire, etc...

You're right, i talk like an angry JL dealer, but i wouldn't if i didn't think JL made great products. I don't give the re xxx props because there are already enough props given on this forum that everyone knows the xxx is a great subwoofer. I look at subwoofers numbers, but only to compare them spec for spec, not for what i choose as my subwoofer. I hear what I hear, and i heard from w7, idmax, xxx, brahma, seas lotus, illusion audio nd-12, etc. I prefer one over the other, but i don't go out and say one of those is overpriced simply because the other subwoofers are "close" in performance, yet cost much less.

13" is plenty for a subwoofer. I don't see a reason why you need anything bigger unless you are going for a full ear bleeding SPL car. JL won't make a 15" because the design won't allow them to get what they want. There is a reason why they made the 13.5" and it not just to be different...

I use to be a JL hater until I finally found myself trying out some subs. I have used so many JL products that many other subwoofers fail to fit my application.




I would use the RE xxx, but box size won't allow me to use it. the brahma i might be able to use, except why would i need to spend money if my sub right now is doing fine?


no hard feelings. I just wanted to defend JL audio for what they are since the interweb family does not respect them enough.



:grinno:


EDIT: one more thing, the dd spec is 2-way as oppose to everyone else's 1-way. :icon16:

no shit? really. is that why i said one way xmax v +- suspension travel?

Hehehe... I used to be into high performance computers, and we hardly ever got into fights about which processor was better, mainly because there were ways to test them head to head. I think someone should come up with a standardized car shaped room, and then try several different subs/amps/etc in it and see how they do. I know this isn't real world, but it would be a baseline on which to compare things to, and to see how your install compares to the "benchmark" trial. Seriously, 90% of the flame wars and debates here would be GONE if there was a system like this in place. We'd be talking all about how much better our installs are compared to the "benchies" and not debating which $700 dollar woofer can beat a $1000 dollar woofer because of suspension travel, cone area, etc.

Ok, my ranting is done. Have a nice day!

no shit? really. is that why i said one way xmax v +- suspension travel?


ok i'm really going to be an asshole on this one and say the 13w7 one way surpasses the dd xmax 2-way, by at least a good 5mm of travel. yes..w7 "almost" has more travel than a dd +- xmax.



i'm done.

Hehehe... I used to be into high performance computers, and we hardly ever got into fights about which processor was better, mainly because there were ways to test them head to head. I think someone should come up with a standardized car shaped room, and then try several different subs/amps/etc in it and see how they do. I know this isn't real world, but it would be a baseline on which to compare things to, and to see how your install compares to the "benchmark" trial. Seriously, 90% of the flame wars and debates here would be GONE if there was a system like this in place. We'd be talking all about how much better our installs are compared to the "benchies" and not debating which $700 dollar woofer can beat a $1000 dollar woofer because of suspension travel, cone area, etc.

Ok, my ranting is done. Have a nice day!

it's true that we need a standardized way to compare, but then it'd be waste of time since everything we test will be thrown out the window.

Thats why most people rely on T/S parameters where they are measured with very little power and in an open environment. That's probably as good as it gets as far as making things equal.


but apparently, price has some affects on a subwoofer's performance according to many people. :p

how far suspension can travel and xmax (how far the motor can push it in controll) are not the same thing....

how far suspension can travel and xmax (how far the motor can push it in controll) are not the same thing....

Gsteg, JUST might know that too! haha, but I'll watch and observe...

NG

he may but he tries to make me look stupid by putting words in my mouth. i said Xmax v suspension travel which is xmax v. xmech

actually thta would be xmax versus xsus.......juss tryin to be an arse..... xmech is when the sub cannot move any more because it bottoms out, spider crashes the top plate.......and those type of wonderful things. And it is possible to go further then the xsus seeing scottie johnsons MT's..... only problem is that DAMN surround rips and ya gotta recone (no I'm not serious about running subs till the surround rips)

actually thta would be xmax versus xsus.......juss tryin to be an arse..... xmech is when the sub cannot move any more because it bottoms out, spider crashes the top plate.......and those type of wonderful things. And it is possible to go further then the xsus seeing scottie johnsons MT's..... only problem is that DAMN surround rips and ya gotta recone (no I'm not serious about running subs till the surround rips)

Yup, and you have to put a spacer between the basket rim and the surround b/c they move so much. It was ridiculous the amount of woofers we took out and repaired! Some of the surrounds were ripped like paper...crazy...

NG