VZ Commodore Info?
babyjb
03-15-2002, 07:43 AM
Does anybody have any info, or web pages to visit, on the VZ series (is that what it will be called?)? I'm thinking of getting an R8 near the end of the year, but would wait a bit longer if the VZ is just around the corner. Will the next R8 be better than the TS50? Is the current R8 better than a TS50? I saw a recent magazine that placed the TS50 in front - just.
Downunder
03-15-2002, 09:34 AM
It will be called VY. The HSV's are looking at getting around 270kW standard.
The ford does have a better chassis but the holden isnt too far behind. Also it depends if you want to modify the car? If so the LS1 is the go as you will be able to get close to 300kW with just bolt ons. If the VY HSV's gets an updated engine maybe over 300kW will be achievable. The fords engine is at the end of it's cycle and the only other way to get more power is to go internal and/or give it forced induction.
The ford does have a better chassis but the holden isnt too far behind. Also it depends if you want to modify the car? If so the LS1 is the go as you will be able to get close to 300kW with just bolt ons. If the VY HSV's gets an updated engine maybe over 300kW will be achievable. The fords engine is at the end of it's cycle and the only other way to get more power is to go internal and/or give it forced induction.
Thunda Downunda
03-15-2002, 06:18 PM
Interesting Q & A ..
Sorry, no web-sites or VY info from me, but my 2c worth says of the current models TS50 is now very competitive against R8 in every way .. except perhaps looks and public opinion. Maybe the latter will wake up by the time you re-sell, but previous Tickfords have taken a hammering on the resale. Then again look at the depreciation hit Holden-engined VT V8's took after the LS1 appeared ..
However, look deeper as a 'driver's car' as opposed to being saddled as a junior Mark Skaife :aug2: and T-series Falcons impress.
Notably more precise steering, better chassis & handling - as mentioned above - and shifter. Although the Windsor (historically it's the final rendition worldwide of this multiple Le Mans, Bathurst etc winner) is being PHASE-d out after a 40 year heritage - who knows, that and T-series rarity may ultimately help resale? - it's still a wonderfully charismatic powerplant. Better torque, nicer note that the 'Dore and also individually hand-assembled in Melbourne with goodies like Yella Terra heads etc is hard to ignore.
FoMoCo's upcoming (is it October?) replacement 'modular' OHC V8's apparently aren't as exceptionally torquey as Windsors, nor is the LS1 for that matter.
Finally, a mate's LS1 SS cost 'only' $1,200 to insure - I wonder how these 'tuner' cars compare with that, and each other?
ps: So it's the VY huh, not VU? Thanks for that and lets hope during the Clipsal 500 this weekend that supa-shnoz-Skaife goes hard .. into the fence, that is ..
Sorry, no web-sites or VY info from me, but my 2c worth says of the current models TS50 is now very competitive against R8 in every way .. except perhaps looks and public opinion. Maybe the latter will wake up by the time you re-sell, but previous Tickfords have taken a hammering on the resale. Then again look at the depreciation hit Holden-engined VT V8's took after the LS1 appeared ..
However, look deeper as a 'driver's car' as opposed to being saddled as a junior Mark Skaife :aug2: and T-series Falcons impress.
Notably more precise steering, better chassis & handling - as mentioned above - and shifter. Although the Windsor (historically it's the final rendition worldwide of this multiple Le Mans, Bathurst etc winner) is being PHASE-d out after a 40 year heritage - who knows, that and T-series rarity may ultimately help resale? - it's still a wonderfully charismatic powerplant. Better torque, nicer note that the 'Dore and also individually hand-assembled in Melbourne with goodies like Yella Terra heads etc is hard to ignore.
FoMoCo's upcoming (is it October?) replacement 'modular' OHC V8's apparently aren't as exceptionally torquey as Windsors, nor is the LS1 for that matter.
Finally, a mate's LS1 SS cost 'only' $1,200 to insure - I wonder how these 'tuner' cars compare with that, and each other?
ps: So it's the VY huh, not VU? Thanks for that and lets hope during the Clipsal 500 this weekend that supa-shnoz-Skaife goes hard .. into the fence, that is ..
Downunder
03-15-2002, 08:44 PM
Yep VY it is, cause the VU is the Ute.:)
I hate skaife also . Too much of a control freak;)
I hate skaife also . Too much of a control freak;)
Thunda Downunda
03-16-2002, 01:33 AM
dammitdammitdammit !!
he won the 1st :zx11pisse
man those HRT cars are fast .. almost a second a lap
where's the parity?
(where'd they hide the nitrous?)
maybe tomorrow Faulkner might try hitting Skaife - instead of the wall as per usual
I couldn't stand another year like last :coolguy:
he won the 1st :zx11pisse
man those HRT cars are fast .. almost a second a lap
where's the parity?
(where'd they hide the nitrous?)
maybe tomorrow Faulkner might try hitting Skaife - instead of the wall as per usual
I couldn't stand another year like last :coolguy:
Jimster
03-16-2002, 04:28 AM
I hear that the VY will replace the Opel Omega in Europe- which I think is pointless because the Commodore is built on an Omega platform and it will be little more than a facelift
Thunda Downunda
03-16-2002, 05:01 AM
I hear that NZ will one day become a state in Australia - which I think is pointless because NZ is built on the Tasmanian platform and will be little more than a liability
Downunder
03-16-2002, 08:47 AM
I can't stand HRT anymore. My fav team is Larry Perkins Racing.
Go the Enforcer:D
Go the Enforcer:D
Jimster
03-18-2002, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Thunda Downunda
I hear that NZ will one day become a state in Australia - which I think is pointless because NZ is built on the Tasmanian platform and will be little more than a liability
Over my dead body it will :finger4: Everybody knows that 99% of NZers (Including most of parliment) laugh at the thought
But seriously I hope the next Commodore will show us all that Australia is capable of making more than just badges
I hear that NZ will one day become a state in Australia - which I think is pointless because NZ is built on the Tasmanian platform and will be little more than a liability
Over my dead body it will :finger4: Everybody knows that 99% of NZers (Including most of parliment) laugh at the thought
But seriously I hope the next Commodore will show us all that Australia is capable of making more than just badges
Thunda Downunda
03-18-2002, 05:25 PM
quote from Jimmy_11_cars
Everybody knows that 99% (etc)
Fair enough Jim .. and I hope you were as amused by my riposte as I was by your well-aimed post.
As for 'Federating' NZ, despite those 99%, the collective fear of BOTH our countries is that NZ will evolve into such a basket-case economically it may prove imperative .. and inevitable
Which neatly leads me into your 'car badges' reference:
Look, frankly the US to a great extent virtually controls and decides the fate of auto-industries in all English-speaking countries, including OZ, the UK & Canada - with perhaps protectionist India being the exception. But FYI the OZ automotive industry exported well over NZ$5 billion in 2000 (up over 30% on last year, with similar growth predicted) the majority being NEW badges attached to NEW cars. 15% went to Kiwi-land (don't choke).
You make great cheeses tho ...
Contrast this with New Zealand where I'm told the major auto industry is importing used ~ read second-hand ~ japanese cars .. apparently many of which are previously stolen contraband
.. and I am in awe of your descriptor of our auto industry (which includes Falcon btw) as making "just badges". Is that really the way you 'thunk'?
Everybody knows that 99% (etc)
Fair enough Jim .. and I hope you were as amused by my riposte as I was by your well-aimed post.
As for 'Federating' NZ, despite those 99%, the collective fear of BOTH our countries is that NZ will evolve into such a basket-case economically it may prove imperative .. and inevitable
Which neatly leads me into your 'car badges' reference:
Look, frankly the US to a great extent virtually controls and decides the fate of auto-industries in all English-speaking countries, including OZ, the UK & Canada - with perhaps protectionist India being the exception. But FYI the OZ automotive industry exported well over NZ$5 billion in 2000 (up over 30% on last year, with similar growth predicted) the majority being NEW badges attached to NEW cars. 15% went to Kiwi-land (don't choke).
You make great cheeses tho ...
Contrast this with New Zealand where I'm told the major auto industry is importing used ~ read second-hand ~ japanese cars .. apparently many of which are previously stolen contraband
.. and I am in awe of your descriptor of our auto industry (which includes Falcon btw) as making "just badges". Is that really the way you 'thunk'?
Jimster
03-19-2002, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Thunda Downunda
quote from Jimmy_11_cars
Everybody knows that 99% (etc)
Fair enough Jim .. and I hope you were as amused by my riposte as I was by your well-aimed post.
As for 'Federating' NZ, despite those 99%, the collective fear of BOTH our countries is that NZ will evolve into such a basket-case economically it may prove imperative .. and inevitable
Which neatly leads me into your 'car badges' reference:
Look, frankly the US to a great extent virtually controls and decides the fate of auto-industries in all English-speaking countries, including OZ, the UK & Canada - with perhaps protectionist India being the exception. But FYI the OZ automotive industry exported well over NZ$5 billion in 2000 (up over 30% on last year, with similar growth predicted) the majority being NEW badges attached to NEW cars. 15% went to Kiwi-land (don't choke).
You make great cheeses tho ...
Contrast this with New Zealand where I'm told the major auto industry is importing used ~ read second-hand ~ japanese cars .. apparently many of which are previously stolen contraband
.. and I am in awe of your descriptor of our auto industry (which includes Falcon btw) as making "just badges". Is that really the way you 'thunk'?
Well Commodore- Omega platform, Buick/Chevy Engines and running gear (But Aussie tuned in the case of HSV) with Aussie badges Stling and Supspension
Falcon-I am pretty impressed by the Falcon- only problem is that some of the running gear is from te origional-from 40 years ago
But still the Fords and Holden's are very popular among our cops and taxi-drivers and fleet-leasing markets.
Although RE the imports: The only stolen imports taht come here are Mercs Beemers and Jags and not many at that and in April pre-1994 imports will be banned from our shores, which I am all for.
Although there has been a surge in sales on European viechles due to a shitty NZ$ vs Yen but nice NZ$ vs Euro rate
quote from Jimmy_11_cars
Everybody knows that 99% (etc)
Fair enough Jim .. and I hope you were as amused by my riposte as I was by your well-aimed post.
As for 'Federating' NZ, despite those 99%, the collective fear of BOTH our countries is that NZ will evolve into such a basket-case economically it may prove imperative .. and inevitable
Which neatly leads me into your 'car badges' reference:
Look, frankly the US to a great extent virtually controls and decides the fate of auto-industries in all English-speaking countries, including OZ, the UK & Canada - with perhaps protectionist India being the exception. But FYI the OZ automotive industry exported well over NZ$5 billion in 2000 (up over 30% on last year, with similar growth predicted) the majority being NEW badges attached to NEW cars. 15% went to Kiwi-land (don't choke).
You make great cheeses tho ...
Contrast this with New Zealand where I'm told the major auto industry is importing used ~ read second-hand ~ japanese cars .. apparently many of which are previously stolen contraband
.. and I am in awe of your descriptor of our auto industry (which includes Falcon btw) as making "just badges". Is that really the way you 'thunk'?
Well Commodore- Omega platform, Buick/Chevy Engines and running gear (But Aussie tuned in the case of HSV) with Aussie badges Stling and Supspension
Falcon-I am pretty impressed by the Falcon- only problem is that some of the running gear is from te origional-from 40 years ago
But still the Fords and Holden's are very popular among our cops and taxi-drivers and fleet-leasing markets.
Although RE the imports: The only stolen imports taht come here are Mercs Beemers and Jags and not many at that and in April pre-1994 imports will be banned from our shores, which I am all for.
Although there has been a surge in sales on European viechles due to a shitty NZ$ vs Yen but nice NZ$ vs Euro rate
Thunda Downunda
03-19-2002, 02:18 AM
Oz has 4 car manufacturers and over 200 major automotive component, tooling, design and engineering firms - creating more than mere badgework.
Interesting info on the imports. May I ask the negatives of pre-1994 imports, and why you support banning them?
Overall, Falcons prove to be the most durable passenger car sold here - generally better than so-called winners like Mercedes, Toyota etc. Fleet, cop & taxi owners buy 'em for a reason after all. For example taxi owners here regularly report 700,000+ k's easy, then only an (inexpensive) head reco and on to one-million+ from one engine, diff etc. Solid units. Exporting natural-gas Falcon taxis to places like Hong Kong etc is worth a mention.
But apart from amazingly using identical engine bore-spacing as the original 1960 144cid Falcon (!) and perhaps using rear semi eliptics on wagon/ute (which is no bad thing, as about 70% of all Falcons are fitted with towbars) i can't see any usage of 1960 running gear - or detriment in doing the above, for that matter
Interesting info on the imports. May I ask the negatives of pre-1994 imports, and why you support banning them?
Overall, Falcons prove to be the most durable passenger car sold here - generally better than so-called winners like Mercedes, Toyota etc. Fleet, cop & taxi owners buy 'em for a reason after all. For example taxi owners here regularly report 700,000+ k's easy, then only an (inexpensive) head reco and on to one-million+ from one engine, diff etc. Solid units. Exporting natural-gas Falcon taxis to places like Hong Kong etc is worth a mention.
But apart from amazingly using identical engine bore-spacing as the original 1960 144cid Falcon (!) and perhaps using rear semi eliptics on wagon/ute (which is no bad thing, as about 70% of all Falcons are fitted with towbars) i can't see any usage of 1960 running gear - or detriment in doing the above, for that matter
replicant_008
05-07-2002, 03:32 AM
noticed the dialogue so I thought I'd butt in
The pre-1994 imports don't pass the current frontal impact regs so no more are to be imported (there's a complete glut of them at present as the importers brought in boatloads before the deadline). The imports have brought the average age of cars down since they became commonplace. (although the last time I was in Oamaru I decided it was the place Hillman Avengers, Vauxhall Chevettes, Holden Toranas go to die - and we won't comment on Gore).
The WOF inspection regime is also now very strict on rust which will hopefully rid the world of the really sick puppies. Pity there's no emission rules other than > 10 seconds of visible smoke (yes that's the test!) - and maybe there will be less of the diesels which are poo-brown from the crap out of the exhaust...
The other thing about long term costs of running a Falcon is that the Watts Linkage rear end (and the Hotchkiss rear end in the 'wagon) also doesn't have camber change or vary in toe-in under load. The trailing arms on the back end of a 'dore toe-in and have a lot of camber change with loads. This manifests itself as faster wear on the inside of the rears - especially in the older HSV/SS models. The toe control arms (a la Lotus Carlton) help but even the wishbone IRS on the back of a Falc (whilst better than the trailing arms) has a higher wear rate than a watts linkage rear end.
PS I can't see a Federation either - we can't even get open sky rights to Australia, sell chocolate, grapes or apples there.
The pre-1994 imports don't pass the current frontal impact regs so no more are to be imported (there's a complete glut of them at present as the importers brought in boatloads before the deadline). The imports have brought the average age of cars down since they became commonplace. (although the last time I was in Oamaru I decided it was the place Hillman Avengers, Vauxhall Chevettes, Holden Toranas go to die - and we won't comment on Gore).
The WOF inspection regime is also now very strict on rust which will hopefully rid the world of the really sick puppies. Pity there's no emission rules other than > 10 seconds of visible smoke (yes that's the test!) - and maybe there will be less of the diesels which are poo-brown from the crap out of the exhaust...
The other thing about long term costs of running a Falcon is that the Watts Linkage rear end (and the Hotchkiss rear end in the 'wagon) also doesn't have camber change or vary in toe-in under load. The trailing arms on the back end of a 'dore toe-in and have a lot of camber change with loads. This manifests itself as faster wear on the inside of the rears - especially in the older HSV/SS models. The toe control arms (a la Lotus Carlton) help but even the wishbone IRS on the back of a Falc (whilst better than the trailing arms) has a higher wear rate than a watts linkage rear end.
PS I can't see a Federation either - we can't even get open sky rights to Australia, sell chocolate, grapes or apples there.
replicant_008
05-07-2002, 03:44 AM
One other thing... someone could describe the Commodore as an Omega platform, contains modified Buick or Chevrolet power train but I think the sum of the parts is less than the finished product. It's a good value for money car built to seat 5 comfortably and to a price of around USD 15,000. Show me anyone else who can do that.
You could look at a Maserati 3200 GT and say it uses Ferrari engines and the automatic's out of a Falcon or an AC Cobra which used a Ford small block and a velly British sportscar body! Both are pretty amazing cars and the 'dore and the Falc' are - I can't think of anywhere that can build such roomy, solid cars for the pesos.
On the other hand some of you note that I drive one of the new Mondeos - so I must be a Euro-phile huh? Well, just because I choose to drink Shiraz tonight with my dinner doesn't mean I can't enjoy a few cold beers with the lads after footie tomorrow. Same with the Commodore and the Falcon - driven both and like 'em both too.
You could look at a Maserati 3200 GT and say it uses Ferrari engines and the automatic's out of a Falcon or an AC Cobra which used a Ford small block and a velly British sportscar body! Both are pretty amazing cars and the 'dore and the Falc' are - I can't think of anywhere that can build such roomy, solid cars for the pesos.
On the other hand some of you note that I drive one of the new Mondeos - so I must be a Euro-phile huh? Well, just because I choose to drink Shiraz tonight with my dinner doesn't mean I can't enjoy a few cold beers with the lads after footie tomorrow. Same with the Commodore and the Falcon - driven both and like 'em both too.
P Stewart
05-25-2002, 01:50 AM
From what I have heard, the VY will have a 5-Speed auto standard and the interior centre dash will be sikmilar to the current Magna.
I hate HRT too.
I hate HRT too.
russell booth
03-27-2003, 10:59 PM
The VT - VY Commodore is not built off an Omega platform,Holden ditched that as the VS was the last OPEL based car to be manufactured as a Commodore.
My parents have a VX Commodore, has a totally different floorpan & chassis to the VB-VS Commodores,Holden even said they were doing away with the OPEL body back in 1998 before they released the VT.
My parents have a VX Commodore, has a totally different floorpan & chassis to the VB-VS Commodores,Holden even said they were doing away with the OPEL body back in 1998 before they released the VT.
P Stewart
03-28-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by russell booth
The VT - VY Commodore is not built off an Omega platform,Holden ditched that as the VS was the last OPEL based car to be manufactured as a Commodore.
My parents have a VX Commodore, has a totally different floorpan & chassis to the VB-VS Commodores,Holden even said they were doing away with the OPEL body back in 1998 before they released the VT.
Thats not what I've heard. Once the VT was released, Ford took one apart and they said it was almost identical to the Vaxhaul Omega.
And if it wasn't based on the Omega, then what is it based on?
The VT - VY Commodore is not built off an Omega platform,Holden ditched that as the VS was the last OPEL based car to be manufactured as a Commodore.
My parents have a VX Commodore, has a totally different floorpan & chassis to the VB-VS Commodores,Holden even said they were doing away with the OPEL body back in 1998 before they released the VT.
Thats not what I've heard. Once the VT was released, Ford took one apart and they said it was almost identical to the Vaxhaul Omega.
And if it wasn't based on the Omega, then what is it based on?
russell booth
03-28-2003, 03:31 PM
I could trust Ford to say that after all they are Holdens rival,I have a VL and my brother has a VN and the underbody is nothing like what is under the VX,one thing I have heard about Ford (which may be or not be true ) is the underbody from the EA up to the BA is the same.
P Stewart
03-28-2003, 03:52 PM
I aksed around and the VT/VX is heavily based on the Omega. If you look at both at the right angle you can see the simularities.
For example, the c pillar is identical on both cars and the doors are extremely similar.
About the BA, yes I think they are similar under-neith, although the BA was heavily changed with the addition IRS and its now longer. The front setup has also been changed I think.
For example, the c pillar is identical on both cars and the doors are extremely similar.
About the BA, yes I think they are similar under-neith, although the BA was heavily changed with the addition IRS and its now longer. The front setup has also been changed I think.
russell booth
03-28-2003, 04:06 PM
I could trust Ford to say that after all they are Holdens rival,I have a VL and my brother has a VN and the underbody is nothing like what is under the VX,one thing I have heard about Ford (which may be or not be true ) is the underbody from the EA up to the BA is the same.
Jimster
03-28-2003, 04:58 PM
The VT/VX/VY is based around the CURRENT Opel Omega- which was released around about the same time as the VR Commodore. The VR/VS were facelifted VN/VP/VQ's- which is on an Opel Senator (1980's Omega platform) and the VB was done around the Opel Reckford plans- but had to be modifed extensively- I actually have an interesting article on the Opel Reckford----> VB Commodore transformation.....I'll type it up later. The next Commodore will most likely ride on the new Sigma platform.
The BA Falcon isn't based around a foreign floorplan however- the design may be about 15-odd years old- but the Falcon STILL has the handling edge over the Commodore- The Commodore is lucky enough to have the benefit of foreign floorplans at it's disposal.
The BA Falcon isn't based around a foreign floorplan however- the design may be about 15-odd years old- but the Falcon STILL has the handling edge over the Commodore- The Commodore is lucky enough to have the benefit of foreign floorplans at it's disposal.
P Stewart
03-28-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Jimster
The VT/VX/VY is based around the CURRENT Opel Omega- which was released around about the same time as the VR Commodore. The VR/VS were facelifted VN/VP/VQ's- which is on an Opel Senator (1980's Omega platform) and the VB was done around the Opel Reckford plans- but had to be modifed extensively- I actually have an interesting article on the Opel Reckford----> VB Commodore transformation.....I'll type it up later. The next Commodore will most likely ride on the new Sigma platform.
The BA Falcon isn't based around a foreign floorplan however- the design may be about 15-odd years old- but the Falcon STILL has the handling edge over the Commodore- The Commodore is lucky enough to have the benefit of foreign floorplans at it's disposal.
Yep, thanks Jimster you are correct.
The next, VE , 'will' be based on the Sigma platform which it will share with alot of other GM products. I agree that Holden are very lucky for this because there current platform is very dated and lags well behind the Falcons.
The VT/VX/VY is based around the CURRENT Opel Omega- which was released around about the same time as the VR Commodore. The VR/VS were facelifted VN/VP/VQ's- which is on an Opel Senator (1980's Omega platform) and the VB was done around the Opel Reckford plans- but had to be modifed extensively- I actually have an interesting article on the Opel Reckford----> VB Commodore transformation.....I'll type it up later. The next Commodore will most likely ride on the new Sigma platform.
The BA Falcon isn't based around a foreign floorplan however- the design may be about 15-odd years old- but the Falcon STILL has the handling edge over the Commodore- The Commodore is lucky enough to have the benefit of foreign floorplans at it's disposal.
Yep, thanks Jimster you are correct.
The next, VE , 'will' be based on the Sigma platform which it will share with alot of other GM products. I agree that Holden are very lucky for this because there current platform is very dated and lags well behind the Falcons.
Thunda Downunda
03-29-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Jimster
The VT/VX/VY is based around the CURRENT Opel Omega- which was released around about the same time as the VR Commodore. The VR/VS were facelifted VN/VP/VQ's- which is on an Opel Senator (1980's Omega platform) and the VB was done around the Opel Reckford plans- but had to be modifed extensively- I actually have an interesting article on the Opel Reckford----> VB Commodore transformation.....I'll type it up later. The next Commodore will most likely ride on the new Sigma platform.
The BA Falcon isn't based around a foreign floorplan however- the design may be about 15-odd years old- but the Falcon STILL has the handling edge over the Commodore- The Commodore is lucky enough to have the benefit of foreign floorplans at it's disposal.
I think I've seen that 'Reckford' article - be good to see it again
VT-VY Commodore origins are derived from the original late '70s Opel V-car, yet comparing the style-theme of a C pillar doesn't prove them to be the same car as the final-gen Omega . Compare the underskin engineering as compared to the last RWD Opel. Completely different chassis rails, front structure, crash cans, front suspension, steering etc etc. And that's just the front end ..
Likewise if you were a pedantic hard-case it's arguable that the BA Ford is .. ultimately .. based on the 1966 US Falcon platform, albeit heavily modified. You could similarly argue that current Mustang just an updated Pinto. An A9X Torana is 'based' on a 1967 1200cc Vauxhall Viva. However this is plainly absurd, just as is calling a VT nothing more than an Opel clone. Both Falcon & Commodore evolved from source cars over many decades into the unique product they are today
The VT/VX/VY is based around the CURRENT Opel Omega- which was released around about the same time as the VR Commodore. The VR/VS were facelifted VN/VP/VQ's- which is on an Opel Senator (1980's Omega platform) and the VB was done around the Opel Reckford plans- but had to be modifed extensively- I actually have an interesting article on the Opel Reckford----> VB Commodore transformation.....I'll type it up later. The next Commodore will most likely ride on the new Sigma platform.
The BA Falcon isn't based around a foreign floorplan however- the design may be about 15-odd years old- but the Falcon STILL has the handling edge over the Commodore- The Commodore is lucky enough to have the benefit of foreign floorplans at it's disposal.
I think I've seen that 'Reckford' article - be good to see it again
VT-VY Commodore origins are derived from the original late '70s Opel V-car, yet comparing the style-theme of a C pillar doesn't prove them to be the same car as the final-gen Omega . Compare the underskin engineering as compared to the last RWD Opel. Completely different chassis rails, front structure, crash cans, front suspension, steering etc etc. And that's just the front end ..
Likewise if you were a pedantic hard-case it's arguable that the BA Ford is .. ultimately .. based on the 1966 US Falcon platform, albeit heavily modified. You could similarly argue that current Mustang just an updated Pinto. An A9X Torana is 'based' on a 1967 1200cc Vauxhall Viva. However this is plainly absurd, just as is calling a VT nothing more than an Opel clone. Both Falcon & Commodore evolved from source cars over many decades into the unique product they are today
replicant_008
03-29-2003, 10:06 PM
The VN Commodore owed its doorskins and basic engineering to the Opel Omega as a donor car. This saved GMH a significant amount of development cash for the platform.
However, as TD notes saying its an Opel Clone is stretching things a bit. The V6 engine was derived from a Buick FWD powerplant and turned 90 degrees to create North-South driveline. The original VN had a live axle located with arms and an Panhard Rod from the VL although the semi-trailing arm IRS is classic Opel Omega (the toe control arms on the HSV are Lotus Carlton developed).
The floorplan was significantly modified as a result and the VN on Commodores are a helluva lot wider than the Omega. The airbag systems on the current Commodore are markedly different from anything from Europe.
The BA Platform is a significant upgrade on the AUIII platform especially the changes to the rear end ditching the previous wishbone rear end and going for the lighter weight control blade IRS. But it's essentially its EA26 in many respects (which was a significant variation on the XF platform). The SLALS wishbone in the Falcon has been around a long time and a lot of the platform (including the umbrella hand brake until ED) has been around a long time.
It's interesting that the Mustang link has been mentioned but given the possibility of a low-cost DEW platform derivative it could be 'back to the future.'
However, as TD notes saying its an Opel Clone is stretching things a bit. The V6 engine was derived from a Buick FWD powerplant and turned 90 degrees to create North-South driveline. The original VN had a live axle located with arms and an Panhard Rod from the VL although the semi-trailing arm IRS is classic Opel Omega (the toe control arms on the HSV are Lotus Carlton developed).
The floorplan was significantly modified as a result and the VN on Commodores are a helluva lot wider than the Omega. The airbag systems on the current Commodore are markedly different from anything from Europe.
The BA Platform is a significant upgrade on the AUIII platform especially the changes to the rear end ditching the previous wishbone rear end and going for the lighter weight control blade IRS. But it's essentially its EA26 in many respects (which was a significant variation on the XF platform). The SLALS wishbone in the Falcon has been around a long time and a lot of the platform (including the umbrella hand brake until ED) has been around a long time.
It's interesting that the Mustang link has been mentioned but given the possibility of a low-cost DEW platform derivative it could be 'back to the future.'
Jimster
03-30-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by replicant_008
The VN Commodore owed its doorskins and basic engineering to the Opel Omega as a donor car. This saved GMH a significant amount of development cash for the platform.
However, as TD notes saying its an Opel Clone is stretching things a bit. The V6 engine was derived from a Buick FWD powerplant and turned 90 degrees to create North-South driveline. The original VN had a live axle located with arms and an Panhard Rod from the VL although the semi-trailing arm IRS is classic Opel Omega (the toe control arms on the HSV are Lotus Carlton developed).
The floorplan was significantly modified as a result and the VN on Commodores are a helluva lot wider than the Omega. The airbag systems on the current Commodore are markedly different from anything from Europe.
The BA Platform is a significant upgrade on the AUIII platform especially the changes to the rear end ditching the previous wishbone rear end and going for the lighter weight control blade IRS. But it's essentially its EA26 in many respects (which was a significant variation on the XF platform). The SLALS wishbone in the Falcon has been around a long time and a lot of the platform (including the umbrella hand brake until ED) has been around a long time.
It's interesting that the Mustang link has been mentioned but given the possibility of a low-cost DEW platform derivative it could be 'back to the future.'
You and Thunda both are pretty much on the money......But then again no-one was calling the Commodore and Opel-clone- the Cadillac Catera has that base covered :D The V6 and V8 are totally different from the 2.2, 2.5 and 3.2 in the Opel (Same engines as the Vectra more or less) the V6 is from Buick, the 5.0 and 5.7 from Chevrolet. But there is nothing wrong with part sharing- it cuts down on development costs- something that is demonstrated quite well with the VAG's platforms- most notably PQ34 (Golf, TT, A3, Octavia,Leon etc.....)
The VN Commodore owed its doorskins and basic engineering to the Opel Omega as a donor car. This saved GMH a significant amount of development cash for the platform.
However, as TD notes saying its an Opel Clone is stretching things a bit. The V6 engine was derived from a Buick FWD powerplant and turned 90 degrees to create North-South driveline. The original VN had a live axle located with arms and an Panhard Rod from the VL although the semi-trailing arm IRS is classic Opel Omega (the toe control arms on the HSV are Lotus Carlton developed).
The floorplan was significantly modified as a result and the VN on Commodores are a helluva lot wider than the Omega. The airbag systems on the current Commodore are markedly different from anything from Europe.
The BA Platform is a significant upgrade on the AUIII platform especially the changes to the rear end ditching the previous wishbone rear end and going for the lighter weight control blade IRS. But it's essentially its EA26 in many respects (which was a significant variation on the XF platform). The SLALS wishbone in the Falcon has been around a long time and a lot of the platform (including the umbrella hand brake until ED) has been around a long time.
It's interesting that the Mustang link has been mentioned but given the possibility of a low-cost DEW platform derivative it could be 'back to the future.'
You and Thunda both are pretty much on the money......But then again no-one was calling the Commodore and Opel-clone- the Cadillac Catera has that base covered :D The V6 and V8 are totally different from the 2.2, 2.5 and 3.2 in the Opel (Same engines as the Vectra more or less) the V6 is from Buick, the 5.0 and 5.7 from Chevrolet. But there is nothing wrong with part sharing- it cuts down on development costs- something that is demonstrated quite well with the VAG's platforms- most notably PQ34 (Golf, TT, A3, Octavia,Leon etc.....)
Thunda Downunda
03-30-2003, 09:26 PM
;)
Two small points:
That 5.0 litre VT V8 was the Holden engine, not a Chevrolet design
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/news/newsarticle.html?&start=&showall=on&id=HOL&doc=gmh9906281
Wasn't the SLALS front-end of EA-EL dropped, replaced by a proper double wishbone system in the AU?
Two small points:
That 5.0 litre VT V8 was the Holden engine, not a Chevrolet design
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/news/newsarticle.html?&start=&showall=on&id=HOL&doc=gmh9906281
Wasn't the SLALS front-end of EA-EL dropped, replaced by a proper double wishbone system in the AU?
replicant_008
03-30-2003, 10:44 PM
SLALS - The XA-XF had a unequal wishbone design and when EA came along it suddenly got designated SLALS (Short and Long Arm, Long Spindle) but there wasn't a lot of difference between the XF to EA design. To be absolutely honest apart from geometry and some subtle changes to location points there still isn't a lot of difference (well to my old eyes anyway). And the steering rack is still behind the front axle...
Incidentally, the lower arm bushes were prone to failure it seems as well but that's another story...
One of the compromises that happened during the EA development was that manual (ie non-power steering) was engineered into the programme and it was only a very late decision to go with power steering across the board. For some reason - cost saving probably the geometry was a compromise between precision and steering effort - stuck in no man's land. The same thing happened with the lamentable initial transmission choice - the ancient three speed auto going in with the first cam in head Falcon sixes - a job that it was completely unsuited for.
The EB-EF rear end styling was hampered by the installation of rails in the rear of the car to help control NVH late in the EA programme - but the quick fix it meant problems for the later cut and shut on the facelifts which is why they are essentially the same until AU turned up.
Ford has had a bit of a track record for doing this - the 'hotchkiss' rear end in the first XD's ie live rear axles with leaf springs which still grace the wagon and ute (and to be honest do a good job with the load compromises) before the watts linkage rear end turned up in XE. The iron head in the first XD's too before being replaced by 'alloy head' - I had one of the XF's with the EEC-IV EFI and with that awful digital dash.
And the throttle body injection (ie effectively a needle less carbie) for the initial 3.9 and 3.2 (what a wheezer that engine was) in the first EAs - which had a predilection for fuel starvation when you went round sustained corners at high speed (ie the bloody things would stall) and the very underdeveloped self-leveling suspension in the first EA Ghias (which ended up stranding me outside the lobby of a five star hotel in Auckland when the whole rear end collapsed onto the tyres when the plastic air reservoir burst).
I have to admit I'm not a fan at all of the AU Series - part of the reason I'm driving the Mondeo - although the upgrades have improved the car (in the same way by the time EB3 V8 Ghia came along it wasn't a bad car ie it was what EA should have been but it was 3 years too late!). I've had a few short pedals in the BA and have to admit it's a much more settled car and the development seems comprehensive and complete for a change. Although I'm not a big fan of forced induction - and I worry about the longevity of the locally made BTR T5in the XR6T (I keep thinking the Tremec TR-3650 would have been a better choice for it!)
Incidentally, the lower arm bushes were prone to failure it seems as well but that's another story...
One of the compromises that happened during the EA development was that manual (ie non-power steering) was engineered into the programme and it was only a very late decision to go with power steering across the board. For some reason - cost saving probably the geometry was a compromise between precision and steering effort - stuck in no man's land. The same thing happened with the lamentable initial transmission choice - the ancient three speed auto going in with the first cam in head Falcon sixes - a job that it was completely unsuited for.
The EB-EF rear end styling was hampered by the installation of rails in the rear of the car to help control NVH late in the EA programme - but the quick fix it meant problems for the later cut and shut on the facelifts which is why they are essentially the same until AU turned up.
Ford has had a bit of a track record for doing this - the 'hotchkiss' rear end in the first XD's ie live rear axles with leaf springs which still grace the wagon and ute (and to be honest do a good job with the load compromises) before the watts linkage rear end turned up in XE. The iron head in the first XD's too before being replaced by 'alloy head' - I had one of the XF's with the EEC-IV EFI and with that awful digital dash.
And the throttle body injection (ie effectively a needle less carbie) for the initial 3.9 and 3.2 (what a wheezer that engine was) in the first EAs - which had a predilection for fuel starvation when you went round sustained corners at high speed (ie the bloody things would stall) and the very underdeveloped self-leveling suspension in the first EA Ghias (which ended up stranding me outside the lobby of a five star hotel in Auckland when the whole rear end collapsed onto the tyres when the plastic air reservoir burst).
I have to admit I'm not a fan at all of the AU Series - part of the reason I'm driving the Mondeo - although the upgrades have improved the car (in the same way by the time EB3 V8 Ghia came along it wasn't a bad car ie it was what EA should have been but it was 3 years too late!). I've had a few short pedals in the BA and have to admit it's a much more settled car and the development seems comprehensive and complete for a change. Although I'm not a big fan of forced induction - and I worry about the longevity of the locally made BTR T5in the XR6T (I keep thinking the Tremec TR-3650 would have been a better choice for it!)
Thunda Downunda
03-30-2003, 11:06 PM
The only passenger car I know of that incorporates a steering box/rack mounted ahead of the front axle line is the redoubtable HQ-HZ-WB. Many rough-road advantages to that system
I'm no real fan of struts. Of course the old 1960 XK Falcon had double wishbones (as did 1948 Holden) and happy to be corrected on this Replicant, but had heard the EA-EL SLALS was from the US Ranger or Explorer design, now replaced by bona fide double-'A's?
That XF digi-dash was a disaster yeah :rolleyes:
Btw, local reports say impressive XR6 Turbo has at least equal pace to XR8 & even GT. Although the B/W box might prove marginal in extremis for budget-priced XR6T it can't be as fragile as WRX etc junk
I'm no real fan of struts. Of course the old 1960 XK Falcon had double wishbones (as did 1948 Holden) and happy to be corrected on this Replicant, but had heard the EA-EL SLALS was from the US Ranger or Explorer design, now replaced by bona fide double-'A's?
That XF digi-dash was a disaster yeah :rolleyes:
Btw, local reports say impressive XR6 Turbo has at least equal pace to XR8 & even GT. Although the B/W box might prove marginal in extremis for budget-priced XR6T it can't be as fragile as WRX etc junk
Jimster
03-31-2003, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by Thunda Downunda
;)
Two small points:
That 5.0 litre VT V8 was the Holden engine, not a Chevrolet design
fuck.....My bad.......Work's been getting the better of me you are dead right.......can't find that article I was looking for- but I have another one that relates to relations between Holden and Opel in general- I'll whizz it up tomorrow morning :)
;)
Two small points:
That 5.0 litre VT V8 was the Holden engine, not a Chevrolet design
fuck.....My bad.......Work's been getting the better of me you are dead right.......can't find that article I was looking for- but I have another one that relates to relations between Holden and Opel in general- I'll whizz it up tomorrow morning :)
russell booth
04-07-2003, 04:27 AM
Just to clear the air I requested some information on the development of the VT Commodore from Holden,back in 1992 they made a few prototypes of what was going to be the VT Commodore,they were considering either fully importing the V-2800 Opel Omega or to manufacture it here,or to manufacture the U.S designed Buick Park Avenue or the Cadillac Seville.
They went to their other approach to Australianise the Opel Omega,using similar panels,components,etc but so it will not look like the Omega,they did go to the approach of doing a total makeover of the VR Commodore in 1992 which was one of the prototypes built.
They do admit the car has European styling which resembles an Opel but they tried to stretch the Opel body out by modifying its design so it had more space to fit a bigger air conditioning unit,to provide a bigger entry by modifying the door frames and widening the wheel base but found out it was going to be far easier to start from scratch as it wasn't economical to modify an Opel design.
So the VT-VY is not an Opel body,it would be like saying that Ford Australia pinched the design of the headlamps and tail lamps from the Ford Mustang in the 80's as the similarly aged model XE headlamps look like Mustang headlamps,the ribbed designed XF sedan tail lamps were the same "style" as the Mustangs at the time ,but not necessarily the same design.
It would also be like saying a HJ KIngswood is a doneover Cadillac,its style is off a Cadillac but the parts wouldn't not fit onto a Cadillac.
They went to their other approach to Australianise the Opel Omega,using similar panels,components,etc but so it will not look like the Omega,they did go to the approach of doing a total makeover of the VR Commodore in 1992 which was one of the prototypes built.
They do admit the car has European styling which resembles an Opel but they tried to stretch the Opel body out by modifying its design so it had more space to fit a bigger air conditioning unit,to provide a bigger entry by modifying the door frames and widening the wheel base but found out it was going to be far easier to start from scratch as it wasn't economical to modify an Opel design.
So the VT-VY is not an Opel body,it would be like saying that Ford Australia pinched the design of the headlamps and tail lamps from the Ford Mustang in the 80's as the similarly aged model XE headlamps look like Mustang headlamps,the ribbed designed XF sedan tail lamps were the same "style" as the Mustangs at the time ,but not necessarily the same design.
It would also be like saying a HJ KIngswood is a doneover Cadillac,its style is off a Cadillac but the parts wouldn't not fit onto a Cadillac.
Thunda Downunda
04-08-2003, 02:14 AM
Style is purely subjective of course. To my eyes that 'european-inspired" VT Commodore draws its inspiration not from German Opel Omega, but rather from the even earlier mid-90s Buick Regal, which looks eerily similar IMHO - despite being FWD. Both come from that "dropped clay" school of rounded GM design
just an opinion voiced
just an opinion voiced
Pomfus
08-27-2003, 02:47 AM
Holden made its first VZ commodore yesterday
all i know about it is that the engine bay is slighty different
all i know about it is that the engine bay is slighty different
cruisey
08-27-2003, 10:17 PM
and how do you know??
Pomfus
08-28-2003, 03:19 AM
my friend works for holden..
he told me
he told me
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