Pure Disgust...

At least there is SOME clear thinking going on!
Another judge sees case differently
In that case, U.S. District Judge Richard Leon concluded that foreign citizens captured and detained outside the United States have no rights under the Constitution or international law.

A third federal judge, U.S. District Judge James Robertson, ruled in November that because defendants in military trials are accorded fewer legal rights than prisoners of war, the proceedings deny them their basic legal rights. Robertson ordered the military to come up with a new procedure in a ruling that the government is appealing.

Ultimately, the conflicting rulings are expected to reach the Supreme Court.

Finally, its about damn time they did something about this.

At least there is SOME clear thinking going on!
So I guess it's ok now to kidnap foreigners and keep the detained against their rights.

So why do you guys get mad whent hey kidnap US civilians?

US civilians tend not to be shooting at the people doing the kidnapping.

You cannot honestly be telling me you would be perfectly fine if some foreign country started kidnapping US civilians and treating them the same way the suspected terrorirsts are at Gitmo.

US civilians tend not to be shooting at the people doing the kidnapping.

Unless they're members of the NRA. :biggrin: Sometimes they shoot at people who aren't even trying to kidnapp them.

So I guess it's ok now to kidnap foreigners and keep the detained against their rights.

So why do you guys get mad whent hey kidnap US civilians?

IF the US civilians were carrying out terrorism and fighting in a war as enemy combatants, that is the price they pay. As I see it...it aint happening. Those losers at Gitmo were in a war zone carrying out their war against US. Screw them. I hope they rot.

IF the US civilians were carrying out terrorism and fighting in a war as enemy combatants, that is the price they pay. As I see it...it aint happening. Those losers at Gitmo were in a war zone carrying out their war against US. Screw them. I hope they rot.
No, they are suspected, no proof supporting that they are terrorists. For all you know they were just pulled off the streets or homes just because someone was having a bad day.
Again, those "losers" are innocent and there is no proof yet that they were doing anything. Now here we go, you are saying they were carrying out their war so that makes them POW's, not just supected terrorists and therefor deserve the same rights as any POW.

It's stupid thinking such as this that makes me lose hope in humanity

They were captured IN THE ACT. We don't go around rounding them up just walking down the street minding their own business. THAT is assinine.

I need something cleared up.

From what I can see, POWs get more legal rights than "suspected terrorists," correct? So, were these prisoners caught in the act shooting at Americans, in which case they were at war and became POWs, or were they sitting idle and taken as suspected terrorists?

They do not represent a governed body and therefore do not fit the definition of a POW

They were captured IN THE ACT. We don't go around rounding them up just walking down the street minding their own business. THAT is assinine.
Then why are they labelled "suspected terrorists" if they were caught during the act?
They were fighting back and they were captured. Some idiot decided to clal them terrorists because he knows that this way they can do whatever they wat and get away with it.
Either admit they were captured fighters, therefor POW's, or admit to unlawful kidnapping of foreginers.

They are captured nutsacks deserving of shiite.

They are captured nutsacks deserving of shiite.I see your powers of reason, logic and persuasion are as sharp as ever :biggrin:

I see your powers of reason, logic and persuasion are as sharp as ever :biggrin:
Yes they are, and yours are as dull as ever?

Yes they are, and yours are as dull as ever?Why thank you...I do try ;)

I still say all prisoners should be released immediately. And by that I mean that they should be kicked off the base and into the bay. Swim for home!

Raz_Kaz I share your total disgust of new American values as represented through Gitmo, and of US abuses towards as-yet uncharged and untried and therefore innocent 'enemy combatants'

As does the Australian lawyer of one 'detainee' who in this Sydney Morning Herald newspaper report states:

"Make no doubt about it, Guantanamo Bay wasn't a prisoner-of-war camp," Mr Hopper said. "It was a facility designed to interrogate people. It was nothing more than a vulgar concentration camp and it has marked a new high in the rise of American fascism."

Disgusting indeed
http://smh.com.au/text/articles/2005/01/26/1106415668003.html

So, how many years have some of these detainees been locked up? And what again are the U.S. boys down there trying to ascertain?? You ask somebody the same questions again and again for enough years and sooner or later they’ll tell you whatever you want to hear. (put a sack over their heads when the camera's aren't around and you'll get your answer even sooner)

I don’t think it’s fair to assume that all the combatants captured in Afghanistan were terrorists or even Taliban fighters – those who flocked there from around the world to get a piece of U.S. troops, that’s another story. But the Taliban ruled pretty hardcore, and if you’re being ordered to fight or get shot instead, what are you going to do? Remember that the U.S. invaded these people’s friggin country. Even if these people believed their country wasn’t perfect, were they to sit idly by as the U.S. – the much less than perfect model equality and integrity – rolled their tanks in? How can we really fault the Eastern world for viewing the U.S. as a joke, a nation (and president) that has always preached freedom and rights for all people of the world – yet when it comes to the rights of these detainees its like,

“NOPE! – Taliban technically wasn’t a country according to us so the Geneva convention doesn’t apply, and uh… ya they’re not U.S. citizens or being held in the U.S. for that matter so they don’t get those rights either… and, uh… they’re not citizens of the world either, huh… we’re starting a new classification today (what are they calling it now again??), so the UN declaration of rights or any other rights don’t apply. Now if you’ll excuse us, we have to go lecture China because that government is obstructing the human rights of its citizens – plus we’re busy giving the Iraqis the freedom and rights all human beings should be born with…”

I’m not saying these detainees should be let go or released unpunished if they’re guilty – but that’s the problem, we don’t know if they’re guilty or not (or what exactly they’re guilty of). We don’t know anything, and the keyword in the article was "SUSPECTS". The U.S. is making these people disappear, conjuring up a new classification (which is fine to address a changing global pattern) but not without giving it any substance, or limits. There has to be new rules made for these detainees and they must be not only enforced but shared with the global community (so ideally others nations can adopt it, abide and participate in it).

But is it really that much of a surprise? Where’s that famous line from again – the declaration of independence or the constitution: “We find these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal – uh, except our slaves??” Its no surprise more and more nations seem to be ignoring the U.S. when it comes to lecturing them on rights and freedoms. Lol, like when the U.S. tries to tell Russia to curb their extreme position on the rebels in Chechnya, and Putin turns around and says don’t even think about doing or talking shit about us, mind your own fucking business!

And everyone wonders why America is so hated...

^ so true

And everyone wonders why America is so hated...

It's the worst when you get the goofballs who shoot their mouths off almost as if to mock people or deliberately frustrate them. Ignorance is one thing, but when you’re proud of it that makes you aware. Really, letting them rot or dumping them into the ocean?? Use your heads or stop acting immature and looking for attention (use emoticons to let us know you’re making a bad joke). Think about what’s being proposed: against all internationally accepted and domestic laws, the U.S. should just do away with these detainees however it sees fit. What kind of message does this send overseas? AMERICA, the nation that’s trampling your boarders in the name of freedom, really doesn’t give a shit about it in the first place. Sure looks great when the country going after war criminals is a prime offender eh? (this is where the morons laugh and think how “cool” that is). If U.S. troops are in danger of suicide bombings and beheadings now, just imagine for a second how bad the backlash would be if those detainees were offed or humiliated by being dumped into the water (and you’d have some of your finest soldiers no doubt pissing on them as they swam away… how pathetic).

People who boast stupidity like this not only mock themselves, but all American’s (which is totally unfair to the vast number of rational and clear thinking American citizens). I mean, we all get bouts of immaturity from time to time... one can only hope they're doing it just to garner attention. :rolleyes: In any event this crap only helps to fuel the cycle of ignorance… like every Arab is a culturally backwards terrorist, every American is an inbred oppressive infidel. One group thinks the Other is crazy for worshiping extremism, the Other thinks One group is crazy for worshiping greed.

Raz_Kaz I share your total disgust of new American values as represented through Gitmo, and of US abuses towards as-yet uncharged and untried and therefore innocent 'enemy combatants'
As innocent and pure as the driven snow. You probably feel the same about the nutsacks who flew their planes into the WTC.


"Make no doubt about it, Guantanamo Bay wasn't a prisoner-of-war camp," Mr Hopper said. "It was a facility designed to interrogate people. It was nothing more than a vulgar concentration camp and it has marked a new high in the rise of American fascism."
Leftist malarky bullshiite! Hopper is just an anti-american anal pore!

As innocent and pure as the driven snow. You probably feel the same about the nutsacks who flew their planes into the WTC.


Isn't innocent until proven (individually) guilty one of the key American values?

As innocent and pure as the driven snow. You probably feel the same about the nutsacks who flew their planes into the WTC.
Indeed Mr Habib IS innocent, as he has never even been charged, let alone faced any sort of trial. He has committed no offences, hence the US has been unable to convict him (either through civil or military court). For three years he has faced only a terrifying ordeal, at heavy cost to his person. An ordeal of deprivation, of alleged torture and dark deeds by his US kidnapper/captors.

"Prostitute used in Habib torture: lawyer

Date: January 27 2005 Sydney Morning Herald

Mamdouh Habib was the victim of atrocities fit for a concentration camp, including being tied to the ground while a prostitute menstruated on him, his lawyer said yesterday.

Interrogators at the US prison camp at Guantanamo Bay had also told the Sydney man they had killed his family and superimposed animal heads on photos of his wife and children, Steven Hopper said.

At an Australia Day forum in Sydney, Mr Hopper gave more details of atrocities allegedly endured by his client while held at the US base in Cuba.

The Federal Government said it was aware of similar allegations of torture made by former British detainees at Guantanamo Bay but it was the first time the Government had heard the claims involving Mr Habib.

Mr Habib is due back in Sydney within a fortnight after the US said it would release him without charge despite holding him for more than three years on suspicion he knew about the September 11 attacks and had trained with al-Qaeda.

Mr Hopper said yesterday: "The Americans used prostitutes as tools in their interrogations. They'd say to detainees 'If you co-operate with us, we'll let you at this woman for the night'. And if they wouldn't agree they'd use them in other ways."

He said detainees held at the base with Mr Habib reported that a prostitute was told to stand over him and menstruate on him.

"[We believe] one of the prostitutes stood over him naked while he was strapped to the floor and menstruated on him," he said.

Mr Hopper said officials at the base also defaced photos of Mr Habib's wife, Maha, and their four children.

"The Americans in their wisdom have taken the heads off the pictures, enlarged them and superimposed them with the heads of animals and then strung them up all over the walls of the interrogation room," he said.

"As they sat there talking to Mamdouh asking him about his terrorist activities, they held up a picture of Maha and said, 'It's a shame we had to kill your family, it's a shame you will never see these people again'."

He said Mr Habib was also subjected to the same interrogation techniques used on prisoners at the infamous Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

"Make no doubt about it, Guantanamo Bay wasn't a prisoner-of-war camp," Mr Hopper said. "It was a facility designed to interrogate people. It was nothing more than a vulgar concentration camp and it has marked a new high in the rise of American fascism."

Mr Habib was detained in Pakistan in late 2001 and sent to Egypt before being flown to Guantanamo Bay in 2002.

Mr Hopper also detailed abuses against Mr Habib while in Egypt, saying he was suspended from the ceiling with only an electrified barrel to stand on.

"He would stand and get a shock or hang painfully by his arms until he'd collapse," he said.

He was blindfolded and locked in rooms that were flooded with water and charged with electricity, Mr Hopper said.

"On other occasions they used German shepherd guard dogs and [interrogators] told him they train dogs to sexually assault people," the lawyer said.

"Mamdouh has said he wasn't sexually assaulted by these dogs but really we don't know.

"Who would admit to it, particularly an Arab Muslim male?"

The forum Mr Hopper spoke at focused on Australia's political relationship with the US.

A spokesman for the Attorney-General, Philip Ruddock, said last night that it was the first time the Government had heard the claims involving Mr Habib.

"We haven't heard those sorts of allegations from Mr Habib but we're aware that allegations of that nature were made by other detainees released last year," Mr Ruddock's spokesman said. "


Leftist malarky bullshiite! Hopper is just an anti-american anal pore!
Unlike the US miltary and their rabid supporters, Hopper believes in the rule of law, not in illegal abduction, or those victims being held in total isolation without access to trial or charge for years, in sub-human conditions wherein State-sanctioned torture (including disgusting sado-sexual perversities) is served up on innocent victims of so-called US 'justice'

So, how many years have some of these detainees been locked up? And what again are the U.S. boys down there trying to ascertain?? You ask somebody the same questions again and again for enough years and sooner or later they’ll tell you whatever you want to hear. (put a sack over their heads when the camera's aren't around and you'll get your answer even sooner)
The camera's are never around at Gitmo.

I don’t think it’s fair to assume that all the combatants captured in Afghanistan were terrorists or even Taliban fighters – those who flocked there from around the world to get a piece of U.S. troops, that’s another story. But the Taliban ruled pretty hardcore, and if you’re being ordered to fight or get shot instead, what are you going to do? Remember that the U.S. invaded these people’s friggin country. Even if these people believed their country wasn’t perfect, were they to sit idly by as the U.S. – the much less than perfect model equality and integrity – rolled their tanks in? How can we really fault the Eastern world for viewing the U.S. as a joke, a nation (and president) that has always preached freedom and rights for all people of the world – yet when it comes to the rights of these detainees its like,

If the man has a gun in his hand he is an enemy combatant. I don't think the dead taliban think the US is a joke. I guess the US invaded their country for no good reason what so ever.

“NOPE! – Taliban technically wasn’t a country according to us so the Geneva convention doesn’t apply, and uh… ya they’re not U.S. citizens or being held in the U.S. for that matter so they don’t get those rights either… and, uh… they’re not citizens of the world either, huh… we’re starting a new classification today (what are they calling it now again??), so the UN declaration of rights or any other rights don’t apply. Now if you’ll excuse us, we have to go lecture China because that government is obstructing the human rights of its citizens – plus we’re busy giving the Iraqis the freedom and rights all human beings should be born with…”

The Taliban were the rulers of the country, they were citizens of the country. BTW GITMO is American soil same thing as an embassy in another country the ground the embassy is on is US soil and US law is followed on US soil. Please stop the whining that GITMO isn't American soil.


Its no surprise more and more nations seem to be ignoring the U.S. when it comes to lecturing them on rights and freedoms. Lol, like when the U.S. tries to tell Russia to curb their extreme position on the rebels in Chechnya, and Putin turns around and says don’t even think about doing or talking shit about us, mind your own fucking business!

So what did you sit in on that meeting and that's why you know what Putin said?

I would love to see the US back out of the UN and any country that the US is currently in. I say let them fight among themselves, let them starve, let them die in the streets from sickness. I rather see all the money in the US stay in the US. Hey if Russia wants to take on Chechnya go right ahead. If Isreal wants to kill all the Muslims go ahead. Let China kill there own citizens, why not go ahead. I do wish the US would mind their own business and hell with the rest of the world.

I would love to see the US back out of the UN and any country that the US is currently in. I say let them fight among themselves, let them starve, let them die in the streets from sickness. I rather see all the money in the US stay in the US. Hey if Russia wants to take on Chechnya go right ahead. If Isreal wants to kill all the Muslims go ahead. Let China kill there own citizens, why not go ahead. I do wish the US would mind their own business and hell with the rest of the world.

:1:

If the man has a gun in his hand he is an enemy combatant. I don't think the dead Taliban think the US is a joke. I guess the US invaded their country for no good reason what so ever.

I didn't mean to imply the war in Afghanistan wasn't justified for a second, I think it was, and many countries supported the cause - our boys are still over there policing Kandahar, poor bastards were told they'd only be doing 6-month tours... (well that's our gov'ts fault for jerking them around, but there's no denying the job needs to be done). Neither of our countries is perfect, and few nations are. The point I was trying to illustrate was that its one thing to desire or seek change for yourself and your home (or to even find fault with your gov't), its another thing for a foreign nation or ARMY to tell you or give it to you. Not that you or I carry AK-47's everyday to the market, but lets say we're walking on the street with our guns, pissing and moaning about taxes or what our stupid wasteful gov't is doing/not doing, thinking about change and how we'd even like to shoot some of these political bastards etc... then all of a sudden a totally foreign looking tank with Arabs or European soldiers piled on rolls by, these funny looking dudes are speaking gibberish and one of them in a broken accent says join us, we're going to blow up your city hall, come! ??? No matter how mad I might have been at my world its safe to say I'd start capping these dudes going by rather than just standing there or going home to wait for the dust to settle. But lets say I did do a 180 to head home and ran into a wall of neighbours on their way to fight the invading liberators... Can you see how it could have been extremely hard for these Afghan fighters to march against the grain of their Taliban leaders? I mean, these detainees are the survivors right - the ones who obviously stopped fighting or surrendered. There's a good change they're the ones who saw reason in the end and maybe thought ok its over, at least now I can give up and pray things will get better... guess they were pretty stupid for not fighting a hopeless battle to the death (even better if they'd hadn't believed in their cause in the first place eh?)


I do wish the US would mind their own business and hell with the rest of the world

Can't doubt the fact that the U.S. is an integral part of world affairs… the more privileged countries have to help other places in need (Tsunami, famine, etc...). I don't happen to think the world would be better if the U.S. (or any country really) became introverted, just stick to your own ethics and principles - that's what’s killing U.S. credibility! People can't be expected to accept any sort of ideology or principles if their mentors completely contradict themselves. It can't come as a shock that hypocrisy angers people.

I said it once and I'll say it again...If the US decides to close it's borders to the world, they would rot

I said it once and I'll say it again...If the US decides to close it's borders to the world, they would rot
Yep...they being the world.

/\ Ha!

IF the US civilians were carrying out terrorism and fighting in a war as enemy combatants, that is the price they pay. As I see it...it aint happening. Those losers at Gitmo were in a war zone carrying out their war against US. Screw them. I hope they rot.

would be nice to see someone prove these accusations!