Ls/Vtec torbo or ITR turbo

Hey i got a 1993 civichatch Si and i need more power.I was thinking of Ls/Vtec or a ITR engine waht do u guys think.$$$$ and gas doesnt matter more power and torque the better

I was thinking to hit that SEARCH button its mad fast yo.

LS Vtec resleeved and pushin 60 psi on a T4 super 60 competition turbo... 1500 hp and 1 mpg if you're lucky....do a search

Do more research. If you want NA then get the ITR. If you want forced induction then get a GSR. Don't bother with the LS/Vtec. They are more trouble then they are worth. I have one. If you want really good NA power then do a B20/Vtec. That one is worth the trouble.

if you build it right, you wont have any trouble with your lsvtec. and you can make more power than an itr is built right.

i say lsvtec, but no half assing

Since you don't have an LS motor in your car stock, the LS/Vtec is more hastle than it's worth. You will need to buy an LS motor, B16 or B18 head, and b-series trannie. An LS trannie is ideal for turbo. Or you can just get a GSR and make it easy on yourself. I'm not saying the LS/Vtec is a problematic motor, it's just a hastle to put together. Plus in California you can get a GSR motor to pass smog legally but not an LS/Vtec. I love my LS/Vtec, but if I could go back and do it all over, I would put an ITR motor in. I'm an NA guy. And if I could afford it a K-series Type-R motor would be the best possible NA motor. Too expensive though.

An LS trannie is ideal for turbo.

Wrong!

Shorter gearing means quicker acceleration. Doesn't matter if you're turbocharged or naturally aspirated. Think about it, longer gears means you drop more RPM's after you shift. When you shift you want to fall right back into the meat of your powerband, you don't want to be falling out of boost. See This Post (http://www.boosted-hybrid.com/viewtopic.php?t=1496)

Gear ratios are merely a way to trade torque for rpm. With a higher numerical gear ratio, you are putting more rpm at the wheel. With closer gear ratios, you are able to stay at a higher rpm in between shift points. Something like the LS transmissions are suited more towards the broad torque curve/low reving LS engine. It keeps you in the peak torque area in between shifts. The ITR/SI/GSR transmissions keep the rpm's built up in between shifts, to stay in the more peaky powerband.

Having said that, for the track the itr/si tranny is the best hands down. Most high whp turbo engines are operating between 5.5-9k, and having their shift points in between. In combination with a tall slick size (24.5"+), and the high shift point (8.5-9k), you are able to keep the engine operating within the optimum torque curve.

With the LS transmission, between shifts it would possibly drop you out of the optimal powerband and therefore make you slower. Gearing simply put allows you to stay in the powerband of your engine in between shifts.

The myth that you stay in gear longer with the LS transmission makes you faster is purely false. Think about that statement for a second. Acceleration is the measure of velocity over a unit time. Watching the rpms climb on the tach during a 3rd/4th gear pull, they would be climbing slower than with the si/itr tranny. Looking at the definition of acceleration as a measure of velocity over a unit time, the engine would be getting to the same velocity over a slower time lapse. This would yield slower acceleration, and simply put make you slower.

Having said that, the gsr transmission is probably the best balance of a street/strip transmission. The gearing is a little less aggressive as the itr/si transmissions, which will yield a little more traction. For all out acceleration si/itr tranny wins hands down. For a slower car, go with the LS transmission.

I'll go with what the professional shops and racers are going with. Which is the LS trannie. The truth of the matter is the gearing on the LS trannie isn't much longer than the GSR. You stay in boost when you shift. It also takes more advantage of the boost by being in boost longer. Also if you look at time slips from guys with GSR or B16 trannies with turbos they will usually be pretty bad, or a lot worse than what the car is capable of because of the traction issues. Traction is the biggest enemy in a turbo FWD car. My Friend makes 278whp in a turbo GSR hatch and can't hook up until half way thru 3rd. So don't try to tell me that longer gears wouldn't help him. Anyway point made.

I'll go with what the professional shops and racers are going with. Which is the LS trannie. The truth of the matter is the gearing on the LS trannie isn't much longer than the GSR. You stay in boost when you shift. It also takes more advantage of the boost by being in boost longer. Also if you look at time slips from guys with GSR or B16 trannies with turbos they will usually be pretty bad, or a lot worse than what the car is capable of because of the traction issues. Traction is the biggest enemy in a turbo FWD car. My Friend makes 278whp in a turbo GSR hatch and can't hook up until half way thru 3rd. So don't try to tell me that longer gears wouldn't help him. Anyway point made.

lol, are you kidding? In fourth gear with an LS you're doing 30 MPH more than with a GSR. SHOW ME some shops, or beter yet, racers that recommend an LS transmission over a GSR, especially if it ever sees the track. 24.5" slicks plus an LS trans means you're doing 150 MPH in fourth gear with an 8500 redline, which is totally counter productive to acceleration.

Takes advantage of being in boost longer is a god damn crock of shit. Try reading that post. He has an engineering degree, and has tuned DOZENS of very fast turbo hondas. He has his own dyno, and I'd consider him a much better source that the crap you've heard all over the internet about it. Do you believe that VTEC is no good for turbos, and that the rod/stroke ratio of an LS motor makes it a crappy choice for a street motor? :rolleyes: Earl Laskey agrees that an LS trans is not the right choice for a street turbo car.

Go find me some real racers or a shop that would recommend an LS transmission when it isn't on an LS motor. Excluding some hokey ass shop that doesn't do shit for turbo hondas, nobody will recommend you an LS trans.

Laskey? Nope.
Golden Eagle? Nope.
Titan? Nope.
Velocity/VSV Performance? Nope.
InlinePro? Nope.

NONE of those shops will recommend you an LS transmission? Why? Because having the gearing to go 142 in fourth gear on a typical 205/50/15 tire is silly, and is not a good use of power. Idealy you want to be hitting the traps right around redline at the top of fourth. Where do you sit at the end of fourth at 8500? 120 MPH, fairly typical for a boosted honda with a vtec b-series motor on street tires. Knock that up to 24.5" slicks, and you're hitting the traps at 127 MPH @ 8500 RPM's, which is good for a bit higher boost and race gas. I'd love to hear why you think hitting the traps at under 7 grand with an LS trans on slicks is a good idea though, I'm ALL ears.

And if your friend can't get traction till third with under 300 WHP with his GSR, there's more at fault than his transmission. It's called he doesn't know how to drive, paied up with he needs better tires.

I only talk through experience. And you had better watch how you talk to people. If you're running huge slicks it's a completely different story. Full race cars are a different story. This thread has been about a daily driven street car. No guys pushing 250+whp are getting traction in first or second. All the people I know race at the tracks whenevr they get the chances to. I knew a guy who raced an all-motor CRX who recomended an LS trannie for a turbo honda for the street. I am an NA guy and have a b16 trannie on an LS/Vtec, and I'm rebuilding another B16 trannie with closer gearing. I'm sure anyone on this forum who knows me will tell you I'm credible. And yes, the LS takes more advantage of the boost. And Vtec with a turbo is not bad. I'm not an idiot. My friend can drive, but he has an open diff. and crappy tires. After he gets better tires and an LSD he will still not get traction in first and probably most of second. Considering drag racing in won or lost at the launch, I would say that traction is pretty important. Don't try to make me out to be an idiot. I am very into racing, I own several cars, and am building my Civic to be a track car. I am also attending racing school in 2-3 months and hope to get into competitive racing. So you can see I'm into it a little.

lol, are you kidding? In fourth gear with an LS you're doing 30 MPH more than with a GSR. SHOW ME some shops, or beter yet, racers that recommend an LS transmission over a GSR, especially if it ever sees the track. 24.5" slicks plus an LS trans means you're doing 150 MPH in fourth gear with an 8500 redline, which is totally counter productive to acceleration.

Takes advantage of being in boost longer is a god damn crock of shit. Try reading that post. He has an engineering degree, and has tuned DOZENS of very fast turbo hondas. He has his own dyno, and I'd consider him a much better source that the crap you've heard all over the internet about it. Do you believe that VTEC is no good for turbos, and that the rod/stroke ratio of an LS motor makes it a crappy choice for a street motor? :rolleyes: Earl Laskey agrees that an LS trans is not the right choice for a street turbo car.

Go find me some real racers or a shop that would recommend an LS transmission when it isn't on an LS motor. Excluding some hokey ass shop that doesn't do shit for turbo hondas, nobody will recommend you an LS trans.

Laskey? Nope.
Golden Eagle? Nope.
Titan? Nope.
Velocity/VSV Performance? Nope.
InlinePro? Nope.

NONE of those shops will recommend you an LS transmission? Why? Because having the gearing to go 142 in fourth gear on a typical 205/50/15 tire is silly, and is not a good use of power. Idealy you want to be hitting the traps right around redline at the top of fourth. Where do you sit at the end of fourth at 8500? 120 MPH, fairly typical for a boosted honda with a vtec b-series motor on street tires. Knock that up to 24.5" slicks, and you're hitting the traps at 127 MPH @ 8500 RPM's, which is good for a bit higher boost and race gas. I'd love to hear why you think hitting the traps at under 7 grand with an LS trans on slicks is a good idea though, I'm ALL ears.

And if your friend can't get traction till third with under 300 WHP with his GSR, there's more at fault than his transmission. It's called he doesn't know how to drive, paied up with he needs better tires.

amen

s13wanabe, just because your building all this stuff, doesnt mean its the best setup.

why dont any of the pros use ls trannies, because its too long. now a ls tranny is good if your doing alot of highway driving and dont want to be at 5k at 65mph on the highways or whatevers, but thats the only thing the ls tranny is good for. oh its also good if your racing an ls motor that only revs to 7k.

now who am i going to believe, some noname backyard guy with his all motor crx, or all the pros that runs 9s all day long. your choice

It's comparing apples to oranges. Professional built race cars are a lot different than street cars. But hey, you believe what you want. I've gotten professional advice, and have a ton of second hand experience from my friends cars. At the track the high power turbo hondas, that are street cars, are getting better times with LS trannies then Vtec trannies. Whatever though. I've lost interest now, I'm an NA guy anyway.

you took professional advice, what can be more professional than professional race car drivers.

also cars that come with a turbo have really short trannies, do car companies not know what they are talking about either ?

I've gotten professional advice, and have a ton of second hand experience from my friends cars.
Maybe you should get some professional advice on how to better make your LS/VTEC if you're having so many problems with it. The LS/VTEC is an amazing set up and actually isn't that problematic.


And for the original topic, I would personally go with LS/VTEC turbo over the ITR turbo. There's just something about the LS block that I like when we're talking about FI.

The LS/Vtec isn't a bad motor. My has had no problems and pulls pretty hard. I'm running low 14's all day long in a 4-door with the stock steelie 13" wheels. It's a great motor. I just say go with what can be made smog legal. the LS/Vtec can never be legal, but any motor that Honda built with OBD1 or better can be made legal. I can't get mine to pass, ever. At least in California. And it's just through my experience in watching street cars in the 1/4 mile that the turbo hondas with the LS transmission are getting better times. In fact I have never seen a turbo honda with a Vtec trannie beat one with an LS trannie. I've seen about 10-15 turbo hondas with Vtec trannies go up against 20 or so turbo hondas with LS trannies and the LS trannies have won every time so far.

The LS/Vtec isn't a bad motor. My has had no problems and pulls pretty hard. I'm running low 14's all day long in a 4-door with the stock steelie 13" wheels. It's a great motor. I just say go with what can be made smog legal. the LS/Vtec can never be legal, but any motor that Honda built with OBD1 or better can be made legal. I can't get mine to pass, ever. At least in California. And it's just through my experience in watching street cars in the 1/4 mile that the turbo hondas with the LS transmission are getting better times. In fact I have never seen a turbo honda with a Vtec trannie beat one with an LS trannie. I've seen about 10-15 turbo hondas with Vtec trannies go up against 20 or so turbo hondas with LS trannies and the LS trannies have won every time so far.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1076429

DA vs. Hatch

DA is an 81.5MM LS/VTEC, GT30R, full race kit, makes a little over 300 WHP. B16 trans

Hatch is 84MM LS/VTEC, drag 57 trim, makes about 30 WHP more than the DA. LS trans.

Hatchback is lighter, hatchback makes more power, DA HANGS BECAUSE OF THE BETTER GEARING!

In a VTEC application the LS gears are too long, period. Have any proof of all these LS geared cars beating up on B16 geared cars? No, didn't think so. :nono:

Incase you're too lazy to read the thread.

Specs on the Integra (http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=1328)

Specs on the Hatch (http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=1040)

The eg hatch is running an ls tranny, the DA is running a b16a tranny. Gearing def. makes a big difference.

:bigthumb:

My buddy has a bunch of the footage on VHS. I'll ask if I can borrow it and you guys can come over for a slumber party.

Oh man, I just noticed something. The hatch is tuned for 18psi and only making about 325whp. Tell me if you think somethings wrong there. You guys just shot yourselves in the foot. Just as a comparison to all the onlookers of this thread, my buddy has a bone stock GSR motor with a turbo kit from cheapturbos.com, he has injectors and Hondata. He had it tuned at 8psi and made 278.9whp. The guy that tuned it wanted to show my buddy how much power he could have and tuned it to 11psi and made just over 350whp. Now I was there and watched everything. If this hatchback guy has a built 2.0 block and is running 18psi then he should be running over 400whp easily. My friend with a built GSR motor is making 496whp at 20psi. You guys should just back off, you have your opinions and I have mine. And next time you try to show me proof then get some valid evidence. Not some guy with a fucked up car running 18psi on a built block and only making 325whp. And to think you guys are allowed to even talk.

Oh man, I just noticed something. The hatch is tuned for 18psi and only making about 325whp. Tell me if you think somethings wrong there. You guys just shot yourselves in the foot. Just as a comparison to all the onlookers of this thread, my buddy has a bone stock GSR motor with a turbo kit from cheapturbos.com, he has injectors and Hondata. He had it tuned at 8psi and made 278.9whp. The guy that tuned it wanted to show my buddy how much power he could have and tuned it to 11psi and made just over 350whp. Now I was there and watched everything. If this hatchback guy has a built 2.0 block and is running 18psi then he should be running over 400whp easily. My friend with a built GSR motor is making 496whp at 20psi. You guys should just back off, you have your opinions and I have mine. And next time you try to show me proof then get some valid evidence. Not some guy with a fucked up car running 18psi on a built block and only making 325whp. And to think you guys are allowed to even talk.

You really suck at reading comprehension, don't you?

High rpm horsepower could greatly be increased by a set of gsr/itr cams, .63a/r housing and 3" exhaust. The powerband is very useable/drivable, there was significant midrange gains with the smaller a/r housing.

B16 cams are TINY in comparison to ITR or even GSR cams. Pair that up with a small .48 A/R housing, and 2.5" exhaust and you have a restriction monster on your hands. But you knew that, you deal with tons of turbo hondas :rolleyes: B16 cams, a smaller than normal exhaust housing, and a small exhaust are EASILY worth 50 WHP compared to some GSR/ITR cams, 3" exhaust, and a .63 A/R housing. That isn't a sick car, by ANY strech of the imagination.

To think you're even allowed to talk, who the fuck are you? Jeff doesn't tune or work on fucked up cars, that aggrivates the shit out of him. Why waste his time and money on a fucked up car with issues when he could be making more money off tuning a few more properly running cars? BECAUSE IT AIN'T FUCKED UP. Go post on there, ask him how hurting the car is. :rolleyes: Funny how your baseless knowledge somehow seems to just overwhelm someone with an engineering degree who's been tuning hondas for a while, a race car builder with 30+ years of experience and over a decade with hondas, and tons of other professionals :uhoh:

He should have at least 400whp even with those conditions. Call up some tuners and ask them. I think you know that too. I honestly think somethings wrong with the car. A kid I used to know had a built bottom end on a b16 and was running 13psi and only making 268whp. The tuner was supposed to be really good. Turns out the tuner tuned the car really rich for some weird reason. That Civic was slow as shit though, even with 268whp. I pulled on him on the freeway. Remember all I have is an LS/Vtec with PR3 pistons and fuel pressure regulator. I even have the stock 1993 civic exhaust. You know I really think this internet fighting is lame though. If it ends this crap, then you win. Like I said before, I'm an NA guy anyway. Really there is only one thing I would like for you to do for me. Please stop trying to make me look wrong by saying someone has an engineering degree or he has 30 years of honda racing experience. I spend all my spare time either with my girlfriend or in the racing scene. My good friend tunes for Prodrive. Look up Prodrives racing history and you tell me if they are reputable. I don't know names but I'm around racing a lot. I also have many friends into cars of all sorts and I'm around 400+whp cars all the time. I've rebuilt my motor and I built my buddies b16 del sol. I don't even remember his peak power but it was around 200whp in an NA b16. We achieved our goal with a 10,000 rpm redline. His car hauls ass and would take many turbo cars on the street. I also don't want to attack you. You seem to know quit a bit and I guess we have just had different experiences with the LS trannie. If you check out some other threads I know I agreed with you a couple times. Hopefully we meet up in the future and I can race you or something. Hopefully my car will be done by then. I'm out though, sorry if I offended you.

I would say that you should really go w/ the LS/VTEC engine because the ITR engines are like $4500 while you could go to the junkyard and get a rebuildable LS engine and VTEC head for $1000 or less. Unless you are looking to spend serious amounts of cash and have a drag car, i would go w/ the LS/VTEC engine.

i have to agree with turboek on this. jeff knows what he is doing, and has made amazing numbers before. s13, maybe your tuner isnt tuning it conservative, meaning it allows more of a chance to blow your motor, tuning that way will get you more hp

I'll get his name from my friend, but he's very reputable around here and doesn't blow motors. He is a very experienced Honda tuner. Who knows though. I'm at sea level so maybe that makes a big difference.

and with that hatch that jeff tuned. heck yeah with a stock head and stock tb. you cant expect that much from it. plus if he got a bigger turbo.

why dont you go to www.evans-tuning.com and check out the dyno forum. youll see everything he has tuned that the power he has made

http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=1270

check this dyno out