Should churches be burying aborted babies ashes? Why are they against it

Why are the people geting these abortions geting angry when a church performs a funneral for the aborted fetus? These women view these babies as medical waste, same as your tooth being pulled out and discarded. Why then do they care what is done with the medical waste?

Because they're messed up in the head.

Because they're messed up in the head.

agreed

thats a dead baby that could of had a life if it wasnt killed

The reason is becuase it brings back old wounds. For whatever reason the women had to abort the fetus, its theirs and their alone. The church has no right to bring it back to the surface. So much for a loving and compasionate church.

Thsi also brings up another question, what if the original woman that aborted the fetus is not of that churches beliefs. What if they were Jewish or something else. Why perform a religous ceremony? Are they all of the same church/regious order.

Its just another form of the religous groups trying to bring back the abortion issue and I say enough is enough. Until the courts determine to reverse the decision just leave it alone.

TS out

Yeah, the churches shouldn't be wasting their time - there's more important things to be done in this world than foolin' round with medical waste.
Sheesh, some people's priorities are way out of whack.

Why are the people geting these abortions geting angry when a church performs a funneral for the aborted fetus?
Would you be upset if somebody burried your grandfather without any permission? What if your grandfather wasn't a christian?

The reason is becuase it brings back old wounds. For whatever reason the women had to abort the fetus, its theirs and their alone. The church has no right to bring it back to the surface. So much for a loving and compasionate church.

Thsi also brings up another question, what if the original woman that aborted the fetus is not of that churches beliefs. What if they were Jewish or something else. Why perform a religous ceremony? Are they all of the same church/regious order.

Its just another form of the religous groups trying to bring back the abortion issue and I say enough is enough. Until the courts determine to reverse the decision just leave it alone.

TS out
I think the point 732 is making is why should the women care? It's like having a funeral for a tumor as far as they are concerned. THey got it cut out and threw it away. After you throw it away what difference could it make to the disposer of the unwanted trash? To abort something is to get rid of it. To no longer have ownership of it.
The church has no right to bring it back to the surface? They have as much right to it as someone picking up a can from the street. That can and the 10 cent refund belong to the person picking up the can.
For the second question...Who cares what the woman who aborted the child believes in? It's no longer her child.(or should I say tumor or trash?) The ceremony is not for the woman. It's in honor of someone who never had a chance at life.

Go ahead and continue to kill your children. Throw them away as if they mean nothing. Cut them from your body as if they are just a parasite then throw them in a garbage bin and forget about them. Just remember..One mans trash is another mans treasure.

Yeah, the churches shouldn't be wasting their time - there's more important things to be done in this world than foolin' round with medical waste.
That's the problem isn't it? You see medical waste.


Sheesh, some people's priorities are way out of whack. I couldn't agree more.


Would you be upset if somebody burried your grandfather without any permission? What if your grandfather wasn't a christian?

Are you saying your Grandfather is just medical waste?

The woman gets an abortion but gets mad when a church performs a service for her baby? This thing sounds very hypocritical to me. If the woman didn't care about killing her child, she shouldn't care about giving it a service.

If your leg got amputated would you want someone fooling around with it?

If your leg got amputated would you want someone fooling around with it?

Not the same. A leg is something you wanted to keep. It was a personal part of you for many years. When someone aborts a child it was something they did not want to keep. It was a tumor. Would I be upset is someone was fooling around with my tumor? Who cares?

I think the point 732 is making is why should the women care? It's like having a funeral for a tumor as far as they are concerned. THey got it cut out and threw it away. After you throw it away what difference could it make to the disposer of the unwanted trash? To abort something is to get rid of it. To no longer have ownership of it.

exactly what I meant. I think that these women that get upset that churches are performing funerals on their "medical waste", are mad because they dont want to admit that these "medical wastes" are actually human, living, creatures with a right to life. The idea that the "medical waste" is being treated the same as a child who died at age 1 would be treated, this upsets the women that had the abortion and if they admit that, then they admit they chose to end another life. If they trully thought that the "medical waste" was infact a tumor or a parasite feeding off their uterus, then they would not care what was done with it.

Correct 732; there should be no complaints what is done with medical waste; if a person complains what is done with medical waste, then obviously it was not medical waste to them.

I think it's great that the churches involved are backing up their position with action.

[and thank you Mods for the spelling correction in the title]

That's the problem isn't it? You see medical waste.

No, I'm saying that with all the good things Churches could be doing ot HELP people, they'd rather waste their time doing something totally useless because they can't come to terms with the idea that not everybody has the same ideals as they do. In other words, I think it's pretty immature grab for attention that's not helping anybody in any way.

No, I'm saying that with all the good things Churches could be doing ot HELP people, they'd rather waste their time doing something totally useless because they can't come to terms with the idea that not everybody has the same ideals as they do. In other words, I think it's pretty immature grab for attention that's not helping anybody in any way.

Good things they could be doing??? Look around. They do more good for communities than any other group out there. They out give any other group. They donate more of their time to help than any other group. They are usually the ones that start the orginizations that you see in the community that reach out to the poor and homeless and they continue to support them with their money and time. So when they do something to draw attention to the fact that these children aren't just medical waste you complain they should be doing more? What have you done lately?
People who live in glass houses.......

And the fact that the churches see the aborted child as a person with a soul is why they're giving a proper burial. Of course it is going to draw attention; if their motives are to draw attention, then they're wrong for doing it; however if doing it to pay respect to a person and provide a decent burial, then they're in the right.

Good things they could be doing??? Look around. They do more good for communities than any other group out there. They out give any other group. They donate more of their time to help than any other group. They are usually the ones that start the orginizations that you see in the community that reach out to the poor and homeless and they continue to support them with their money and time. So when they do something to draw attention to the fact that these children aren't just medical waste you complain they should be doing more? What have you done lately?
People who live in glass houses.......
Very well said. I would go as far as saying that the churches do more to help in the community than the own fucking government.

And the fact that the churches see the aborted child as a person with a soul is why they're giving a proper burial. Of course it is going to draw attention; if their motives are to draw attention, then they're wrong for doing it; however if doing it to pay respect to a person and provide a decent burial, then they're in the right.
I couldn't agree more. I just still have the hardest time trying to fathem how people see an embrio as nothing more than a cell. A cell is an organism. An organism is life. The sadest thing is that the majority of women who get abortions regret there decisions down the road and it affects them in very negative light. If it weren't for the embrio, the person getting the abortion wouldn't be alive to commit their insensitive, immoral crime. How can someone be against murder, but yet find it okay to kill a fetus?

Here is a very interesting fact that was presented at my church when they talked about abortion.

You will get fined upwards of $30,000 for killing an eagle, destroying their nest, or stealing an egg.
You can go down the street though and legally kill a child.
No wonder so many people are saying America is going down the crappy.

Here is a very interesting fact that was presented at my church when they talked about abortion.

You will get fined upwards of $30,000 for killing an eagle, destroying their nest, or stealing an egg.
You can go down the street though and legally kill a child.
No wonder so many people are saying America is going down the crappy.

Ummmmm...well, eagles are endangered species. How many are left in the world? A couple thousand? How many humans are there in the world. 6.1 BILLION! I'm going to come out and say that I would put the life of a member of an endangered species over an unborn fetus anyday.

The population explosion of the human race is causing astronomical problems. We are losing species to extinction left and right and destroying ecosystems and forests are being destroyed and billions of full grown people are starving in foreign countries and in the richest country in the world, where we live in paradise, we act like abortion is the greatest crime in the history of the world. Seriously though, where are the priorites. /Rant off

Thrasher, I agree with the importance of preserving environments and species.

But how can you POSSIBLY put an animal's life before a human's? It's unconscionable.

What is an animal? What makes a "human" better than an "animal"? Adult male chimpanzees have the cognitive abilities of a 12 year old child. That's right, a 12 year old. Do you know how many adult chimps are left in the world? 8,000. Do you know how many adul humand are left in the world. Oh, about 4,000,000,000. How is the life of an unborn, premature, physically incapable of caring for itself child worth more than a full grown chimpanzee? I just don't get it.

Abortion is a very touchy subject because it is something that people have a very hard time accepting other peoples beliefs about.

If my girlfriend/wife/chick on the side was pregnant, I would definitely not want to have the child aborted. I would want MY KID to grow up, and meet me, and learn from me because I feel that I have a lot of good things to teach to my children whenever I have them.

Am I Pro Choice or Pro Life? I am pro choice. An unborn fetus has not come to realize that it is alive. If it is about 6 months along the gestation period, I believe that is different, once the fetus reaches the point that it realizes it is there, it should be too late to abort. If the woman is 2 months pregnant, and has put 2 months of thought into it, and realized that carrying out her full pregnancy will ruin her job/life/marriage/mental health... then I believe in her right to decide. The baby, even though it is sad to say, will never know.

If you were aborted, would you be mad? No. You wouldnt have ever formed an opinion, you would have never seen what there is to lose. If the child was never formed, it is not much more unfair than the parents just not having sex at all. If they didnt have sex, the child would not get the chance to live. That's not unfair. I don't want people to change their minds about it. If you think it's wrong, then I respect that. I respect the sincere care you have for other people who havent even developed a conscience yet. But in my opinion, it is unnecessary, so I believe in choice.

Back to the topic. If I was the type of person who would abort my child, I would not want somebody else taking the ashes, and taking the responsibilty of giving them a religious burial. However, If they want to have a religious ceremony to pay tribute to unborn aborted fetuses, then I support that whole heartedly. Its just that the church has no rights to the ashes of the child, more than your average joe. Hospitals, or morgues, or whoever it is that cremates these fetuses, should absolutely not let the remains be handed out to any organization... even a church. It is not their right to decide. If I aborted a child, and a church buried the ashes, I would be offended. If I wanted it to be taken care of that way, then I would have done it myself. You can not compare the ashes of an unborn, to a pop can on the street. I think that when the woman aborts, she should be asked if she has a preferrence on what they do with the ashes. If the woman has no preference then I think it is just fine for the church to step in at that point. But if a woman is not Christian, and does not believe that the fetus has developed a life, I understand how honoring it with a burial without her consent would be insulting.

I think that they should all just accept that other people have different beliefs, and that if they are offending people by aborting, and have no remorse over killing their fetus, then they should loosen up their asses, and let the church carry on the burial for their own peace of mind. The "mother" is not forced to participate, not forced to watch, not forced to be there, not forced to hear about it.... not forced to do anything... I think it is selfish of them to not let the church do what they feel is just.

:2cents:

What is an animal? What makes a "human" better than an "animal"? Adult male chimpanzees have the cognitive abilities of a 12 year old child. That's right, a 12 year old. Do you know how many adult chimps are left in the world? 8,000. Do you know how many adul humand are left in the world. Oh, about 4,000,000,000. How is the life of an unborn, premature, physically incapable of caring for itself child worth more than a full grown chimpanzee? I just don't get it.

Am I right in saying that you think there are humans which simply "make up the numbers" in our population, and if someone dies, you think "Oh well, theres still 4 billion(or however many people there are on this planet) odd people left, so it's no biggie"?
As for humans vs animals, I would value the life of an unborn child over an animal any day(don't get me wrong, sometimes I wish I was a chimp :loser: ). Why? Because that child is part of my species. An animal, no matter how closely related, is not part of the human race, simple as that.

Would you be upset if somebody burried your grandfather without any permission? What if your grandfather wasn't a christian?
I'd be upset, especially if he was still alive :icon16:

What is an animal? What makes a "human" better than an "animal"? Adult male chimpanzees have the cognitive abilities of a 12 year old child. That's right, a 12 year old. Do you know how many adult chimps are left in the world? 8,000. Do you know how many adul humand are left in the world. Oh, about 4,000,000,000. How is the life of an unborn, premature, physically incapable of caring for itself child worth more than a full grown chimpanzee? I just don't get it.


Well, you're right. There ARE some people that are worth less than animals. Some of them have already been born and are posting on the internet.

the point is not whether a chimp is as important as a child. The point is....

Do the churches have the right to give a religious burial to the ashes of unborns, if the "mother" does not approve?

I think the "mother" has the right to decide. I do think that the service the church is doing for the babies is definitely something that would cause guilt in the "mother's" heart, so if she doesnt approve, I say they shouldn't be able to do it. It may be selfish, but they have the right to be selfish, thats America.

But why would the mother have guilt if it was medical waste to her? Saying that she has guilt leads to the conclusion that she thinks she did something wrong. If she really believed she did nothing wrong, she would not care at all.

Good things they could be doing??? Look around. They do more good for communities than any other group out there.
Like what? Even the masons and shriners do more stuff. Even hippies and handicapped people do more stuff. Someone who goes to church and donates time and money for a cause is not the same thing as the church donating time and money IMHO.

But why would the mother have guilt if it was medical waste to her? Saying that she has guilt leads to the conclusion that she thinks she did something wrong. If she really believed she did nothing wrong, she would not care at all.
That's a kind of loaded question. Look, just because it's aborted (and that's life, some people die in the womb, other get hit by cars, fall out of airplanes, die of cancer, or live to be 90 years old - that's life and it isn't fair. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's not my problem, and it's not your problem to worry about - unless you yourself are faced with the decision of getting an abortion. There's a million things you could worry about that would be time better spent than criticizing others for something that has no negative effect on your life whatsoever) doesn't mean that it's not part of her body, and doesn't mean that she has no right to decide how it is to be disposed of and doesn't mean she can't be upset if somebody steals the fetus. I mean I'm not really attached to my trashcan, but if somebody stole it and performed a funeral for it, I'd be kind of freaked out.

2stroke, I agree that until/unless faced with the decision, it shouldn't be worried about, and I hope (unrealistically) that no one has to make that decision. But I'm addressing the funeral issue.

Difficult to convey this thought in writing, but:

woman has abortion. woman feels guilty. fetus buried with ceremony. woman might feel better that child "went to heaven". But I agree that it may keep the memory of what happened alive.

woman has abortion. woman doesn't feel guilty. woman should not care what happens to "medical waste", whether it's burned in the incinerator or put into the ground and buried. If she did care, then that would indicate that she is more like the first woman.

So if you care and feel guilty, by human nature that indicates you think you did something wrong. This leads to the thought that if you did something wrong, it's not just a medical procedure but the taking of a life. (In which case a decent burial is a good idea)

If my appendix is removed, I wouldn't care what they did with it afterwards. But if I thought that I was doing something wrong by removing the appendix, I would want some control over it afterwards, which is where the discussion is coming from.

Of course, I haven't addressed some views, just the guilt issue.

So are you suggesting that church was doing this just to make people feel guilty? So they could feel bad? I don't think most people are overjoyed when they get an abortion, I doubt these actions make anybody feel better.
So once again I must state that it's just a grab for attention that's doing nobody any good.

the point is not whether a chimp is as important as a child. The point is....

Do the churches have the right to give a religious burial to the ashes of unborns, if the "mother" does not approve?

I think the "mother" has the right to decide. I do think that the service the church is doing for the babies is definitely something that would cause guilt in the "mother's" heart, so if she doesnt approve, I say they shouldn't be able to do it. It may be selfish, but they have the right to be selfish, thats America.


If the mother doesn't approve? Regardless of the right/wrong of the abortion argument, she has just had a procedure to remove something she didn't want from her body. She has cast it away. It is dead. It is no longer a person (and, depending on the woman, was never a person at all). If it WAS a person to her, doesn't a decent burial make sense? If it WASN'T a person, then who the hell cares WHAT somebody does afterwards?

The fact that some religious people think that what came out was a person and deserves a decent burial is, I think, showing the conviction with which they believe.

From a "pro-fetus" point of view, a person has been killed. Anyone else that dies would have a ceremony if they wanted to; even mass murderers get a funeral of their choice after they receive the death penalty.

So are you suggesting that church was doing this just to make people feel guilty? So they could feel bad? I don't think most people are overjoyed when they get an abortion, I doubt these actions make anybody feel better.
So once again I must state that it's just a grab for attention that's doing nobody any good.

I'm sure that some of the church people were thinking it would cause guilt, and maybe bring some people around to their way of thinking. And the very self righteous attitude of some religious people would make it the grab for attention you're talking about so I agree with you there.

But some of them also must be burying the fetus for the right reasons.

I don't think of people being overjoyed about abortion either; but I've known some people (mostly secondhand, and no, none of the abortions were because of me) that had it done and not cared, and one woman that bragged she had had five abortions. But the majority of women I've known that have had it done did feel guilt and it bothered them for some time.

So maybe having the woman check a box indicating what she wants done with what is left over after the surgery would be a good idea.

-edit- and of course the government will get involved, as I'm sure there are laws regarding medical waste disposal that must be followed.....

If my appendix is removed, I wouldn't care what they did with it afterwards. But if I thought that I was doing something wrong by removing the appendix, I would want some control over it afterwards, which is where the discussion is coming from.



If having your appendix removed was opposed by churches, and was one of the biggest controversies on earth, and picketers had mean signs to make the people who remove their appendixes, feel bad, then it would not be fair to take the removed appendix, and perform a religious ceremony on it, if the person the appendix belonged to in the first place, did not believe in what the picketers believed in.

If that was the case, and I had my appendix removed, I would be insulted if somebody else took my appendix and had a ceremony to honor it. ITS NOT YOUR DAMN APPENDIX!!! What if I was going to raise my appendix to be atheist? It is not the churches' right to decide what kind of ceremony the fetus receives.

Can I sign up on a list and have fetus ashes given to me so that I can honor them how I believe they deserve to be honored? NO. Why should the churches be allowed to do so? The right to have an abortion is an issue of state. The right to a religious burial is an issue of religion. Religion and state are by the constitution, always to be seperate. This is NOT fair to the would-be mothers.

About this phrase, "Medical Waste".. you guys disgust me with that. Who are you to say that just because a woman has an abortion, she doesnt feel any guilt? Obviously some of them wish they had a better option, but decided that the best thing to do is just not bear the child. Then when the church goes and makes a big hooplah about it, and tries to make people feel even worse about it, along with unrightfully taking the fetus and giving it a burial service, that is downright disrespectful. They have no right to do that unless the woman signs a paper allowing it.


Dont assume that I think a burial service for the fetus is wrong, I don't. I think it's a nice thing. But we all have the right to our own decisions, and an aborted fetus affects no one but the parents; and the church has no right to step in. Let's all try to look at it that way. This is not about what YOU want. This is about the rights of the aborting mothers. If you think that the church should be allowed to do what they are doing, without the consent of the woman who aborted... then you are just as selfish as her.

If having your appendix removed was opposed by churches, and was one of the biggest controversies on earth, and picketers had mean signs to make the people who remove their appendixes, feel bad, then it would not be fair to take the removed appendix, and perform a religious ceremony on it, if the person the appendix belonged to in the first place, did not believe in what the picketers believed in.

If that was the case, and I had my appendix removed, I would be insulted if somebody else took my appendix and had a ceremony to honor it. ITS NOT YOUR DAMN APPENDIX!!! What if I was going to raise my appendix to be atheist?
Your appendix will never be raised as anything. Your appendix has no chance of ever having knowlege of being alive or have a chance to make choices.The reason is because that appendix is just that. An appendix. It's just an organ without awareness and will never develop awarness. When people stop looking at fetusus as just things that are a part of their body that have no feelings then minds will change about this subject.

OK let's say that you were going to raise your appendix as an athiest. Why didn't you? Why did you get rid of it? Making plans for something you have no intention of keeping seems foolish. Being upset about someone else making plans for that thing you got rid of also seems foolish to me.
It is not the churches' right to decide what kind of ceremony the fetus receives.
Who's right is it? The mother? You can't really call her the mother can you? The mother of what? The mother of whom? If she claims to be the mother then she must agree that the fetus she aborted must have been her child. If she claims that fetus was a child then what does that make her?
Can I sign up on a list and have fetus ashes given to me so that I can honor them how I believe they deserve to be honored? NO. Why should the churches be allowed to do so? The right to have an abortion is an issue of state. The right to a religious burial is an issue of religion. Religion and state are by the constitution, always to be seperate. This is NOT fair to the would-be mothers.
Again...Would be mothers? Are they mothers? If so then these are children. Is it legal to kill children? Apperently it is. About this phrase, "Medical Waste".. you guys disgust me with that. Who are you to say that just because a woman has an abortion, she doesnt feel any guilt? Obviously some of them wish they had a better option, but decided that the best thing to do is just not bear the child. Then when the church goes and makes a big hooplah about it, and tries to make people feel even worse about it, along with unrightfully taking the fetus and giving it a burial service, that is downright disrespectful. They have no right to do that unless the woman signs a paper allowing it.

Believe me I don't like the term medical waste any better than you. The problem is that is the what they are considered. Not by me but by the medical community.They don't consider them as anything more until a certain period in their development. I feel for the mothers that see no other choice but to abort their unborn child. That is a short comming of our society and not entirely the mothers fault. Instead of reaching out to mothers and showing them alternatives to abortion they show them an easy way out of their situation. The only ones who are reaching out to these women are the churches. Unfortunatly the media leans more towards the "right to choose" than they do the "right to life" so the message that there are alternatives to abortions and that there are people who will help gets drowned out. Sometimes the only to wake people up on issues like these is to show them that these fetuses are more than just tissue. People are getting angry about the churches giving them burial services. Why? Because it reminds them that they are burying real human beings. It makes them feel uneasy. It should.

Dont assume that I think a burial service for the fetus is wrong, I don't. I think it's a nice thing. But we all have the right to our own decisions, and an aborted fetus affects no one but the parents;

Parents?


and the church has no right to step in. Let's all try to look at it that way. This is not about what YOU want.

It's not about what the child wants either.


This is about the rights of the aborting mothers. If you think that the church should be allowed to do what they are doing, without the consent of the woman who aborted... then you are just as selfish as her.

I don't think she is selfish at all. I think she is misinformed and misguided.

Ya know what... I had written a whole bunch uh shit, very good points, but I just deleted it all, because we can have never ending debates about abortion, and why the mother has a right to be concerned over what is done with it, but all of that is bullshit.

Plain and simple... here it is...

If we are going to give ashes to the Christian churches to bury, then why can't the Catholic churches have some? If the Catholic churches can have ashes to bury, why cant the Hindu churches have some? okay, okay, okay, you can all have some of the ashes to bury... now its like a fuckin NBA draft, who gets to have the fetus ashes. This is not cool. And since we are all so worried about what the fetus would want... If I was a fetus, I would rather be MEDICAL WASTE than to be randomly distributed to religious groups around the world, which would be the only fair way to hand the ashes out. NO handing out of the ashes... PERIOD!!! They are not a commodity!!

The point is, the ashes don't belong to ANYBODY... And no matter what the mother thinks about the fetus, the only fair way to dispose of it, is how the mother prefers it be done, or as "medical waste".

If this continues, there will be greater injustices done to the unborn children than just being aborted. Hell, the things that will come of this will make abortion look like the best thing that ever happened to the child.

Furthermore, abortion is legal, so making the woman feel uneasy about it by performing a religious ceremony on the fetus without her consent, is a violation of her rights. I dont care what your view is on the morals of abortion, it is a violation of her rights. Pair that with my first and third paragraphs, and there is no more room for argument about this topic.

The only thing left for an opposer to say is that abortion should be illegal. I am not even going there.

Ya know what... I had written a whole bunch uh shit, very good points, but I just deleted it all, because we can have never ending debates about abortion, and why the mother has a right to be concerned over what is done with it, but all of that is bullshit.

Plain and simple... here it is...

[QUOTE] If we are going to give ashes to the Christian churches to bury, then why can't the Catholic churches have some? If the Catholic churches can have ashes to bury, why cant the Hindu churches have some? okay, okay, okay, you can all have some of the ashes to bury... now its like a fuckin NBA draft, who gets to have the fetus ashes. This is not cool. And since we are all so worried about what the fetus would want... If I was a fetus, I would rather be MEDICAL WASTE than to be randomly distributed to religious groups around the world, which would be the only fair way to hand the ashes out. NO handing out of the ashes... PERIOD!!! They are not a commodity!!

No one is bidding on ashes. As far as I know there is only 1 Christian group doing this.

If you were a fetus? News flash..You were. Fortunatly for you that you are no longer.

The point is, the ashes don't belong to ANYBODY... And no matter what the mother thinks about the fetus, the only fair way to dispose of it, is how the mother prefers it be done, or as "medical waste".
Key word..dispose. It is disposed of. It was thrown away. It is now garbage. Do you care if someone is going through a dumpster looking for something?

If this continues, there will be greater injustices done to the unborn children than just being aborted. Hell, the things that will come of this will make abortion look like the best thing that ever happened to the child.
What could be a greater injustice that being killed before you have a chance to live?

Furthermore, abortion is legal, so making the woman feel uneasy about it by performing a religious ceremony on the fetus without her consent, is a violation of her rights.
What right was violated? Be specific.




The only thing left for an opposer to say is that abortion should be illegal. I am not even going there.

Probably a good idea for you not to go there.

When people stop looking at fetusus as just things that are a part of their body that have no feelings then minds will change about this subject.
You use the term fetus alot - how do you feel about embryos? A chicken egg is no more of a Chicken than a human embryo is a human. There's a distinction between groups of cells and a fetus, or a developed baby.
If you get upset about somebody aborting THEIR (and therefore it is NONE OF YOUR CONCERN WHATSOEVER because you are not them, and it's not your decision to make) embryo, do you also get upset when a woman has her period, and another chance for human birth goes wasted? Or that millions of sperm die unused waiting in the testicles?
It's not something one can look at in terms of black and white. A sperm, meeting an egg can develop into an embryo, which in turn can become a fetus, which inturn can become a human baby.
A sperm is not a human, an egg is not a human, an embryo is not a human, they can become a human, but it is not a human.
So perhaps when people stop looking at blobs of cells as human, then minds will change about this subject.

What could be a greater injustice that being killed before you have a chance to live?
Having people think that they have the right to tell you what you can do with your life when it's absolutely no concern of theirs.

All that having been said, I don't like abortions, but I'm smart enough to realise that that's me, and so long as it's not something that directly effects me, it's not my right to tell people how evil they are for making their own choices.

You use the term fetus alot - how do you feel about embryos? A chicken egg is no more of a Chicken than a human embryo is a human. There's a distinction between groups of cells and a fetus, or a developed baby.
If you get upset about somebody aborting THEIR (and therefore it is NONE OF YOUR CONCERN WHATSOEVER because you are not them, and it's not your decision to make) embryo, do you also get upset when a woman has her period, and another chance for human birth goes wasted? Or that millions of sperm die unused waiting in the testicles?
It's not something one can look at in terms of black and white. A sperm, meeting an egg can develop into an embryo, which in turn can become a fetus, which inturn can become a human baby.
A sperm is not a human, an egg is not a human, an embryo is not a human, they can become a human, but it is not a human.
So perhaps when people stop looking at blobs of cells as human, then minds will change about this subject.

Your argument goes back to the very basic debate of abortion, when does life start? If a sperm is not really a human and neither is an egg then the joining of the two creates one. I feel life begins the nano-second the sperm and egg join and begin to grow. Of course others will sit here and say "no" but this is how I feel. People may think the "blob of flesh" is nothing more than what it is but I feel it isn't.

Your argument goes back to the very basic debate of abortion, when does life start? If a sperm is not really a human and neither is an egg then the joining of the two creates one. I feel life begins the nano-second the sperm and egg join and begin to grow. Of course others will sit here and say "no" but this is how I feel. People may think the "blob of flesh" is nothing more than what it is but I feel it isn't.
Technically, the sperm and egg are both living - but they are not human. The embryo is alive, but it is not a human. I would consider a fetus developed enough for some people to consider as being human though. And that's why there is a distinction between fetus and embryo, the embryo does not have functioning organs, it's not really a seperate being from the mother at all. It may have a beating heart after four/five weeks, yet it still get it's blood and everything else it needs from it's host - like any other organ in the body. The Fetus is something different altogether, it has the beginnings of most of it's organs, it's skeletal system, and is far more of an idependent being from it's mother than the embryo.
If your objection is not to kill microscopic life, then aborting an embryo could offend you - as could boiling water for making soup or washing your hands.
Once again it's not my decision to make, for it is not my problem to face - and unless you yourself are forced with the choice of deciding whether or not you want/need an abortion then it's really not your problem or any of your business either.
I think the real issue is not when does a group of cells grow large enough to be considered it's own life form, but rather why some people feel they should get to decide for others on such matters that are not in anyway their business to get involved in.

You use the term fetus alot - how do you feel about embryos? A chicken egg is no more of a Chicken than a human embryo is a human. There's a distinction between groups of cells and a fetus, or a developed baby. There is also a difference between a chicken and a human.
If you get upset about somebody aborting THEIR (and therefore it is NONE OF YOUR CONCERN WHATSOEVER because you are not them, and it's not your decision to make)
Yet they take it upon themselves to make a life or death decision about another human being. How is that different than me being concerned about that human being that isn't given a choice? I'll tell you what the difference is. Death vs. convenience.



embryo, do you also get upset when a woman has her period, and another chance for human birth goes wasted? Or that millions of sperm die unused waiting in the testicles?
Why should it? That is not where intelligent life begins. Those are just the tools to create intelligent life.

It's not something one can look at in terms of black and white.
I disagree.
A sperm, meeting an egg can develop into an embryo, which in turn can become a fetus, which inturn can become a human baby. A sperm is not a human,
True.
an egg is not a human,
True
an embryo is not a human,
Disagree


So perhaps when people stop looking at blobs of cells as human, then minds will change about this subject.

The problem is that too many have the same view you have.


Having people think that they have the right to tell you what you can do with your life when it's absolutely no concern of theirs.

Strange how you are against people telling others what to do with their life but not against people snuffing out life before it has a chance. I guess freedom of choice is more important to you than freedom to live. It's your choice.

All that having been said, I don't like abortions, but I'm smart enough to realise that that's me, and so long as it's not something that directly effects me, it's not my right to tell people how evil they are for making their own choices.

Why would you not like abortions if it's just a "blob of cells" that is being aborted? Wouldn't an abortion simply be like when a "woman has her period" Or " millions of sperm die unused waiting in the testicles" ? Do those thing also bother you? After all they are all just blobs of cells that are dying off. Why do you make a distinction between those blobs of cells and the blobs of cells that are aborted? Is it because you believe that it is actually a human life that is being aborted?

Oh my, DramaQueen454 still can't see issues in anything but terms of black and white. :rolleyes:
Strange how you are against people telling others what to do with their life but not against people snuffing out life before it has a chance. I guess freedom of choice is more important to you than freedom to live. It's your choice.
It's not my choice, and it's not your choice. You're opinion that nobody has the right to an abortion makes as much sense as saying that everybody should have an abortion. It's not your body, it's not your problem, it's not your choice, you have no right to decide for anybody else. If abortions had any negative impact on your life at all, your opinion would make more sense.
Why would you not like abortions if it's just a "blob of cells" that is being aborted? Wouldn't an abortion simply be like when a "woman has her period" Or " millions of sperm die unused waiting in the testicles" ? Do those thing also bother you? After all they are all just blobs of cells that are dying off. Why do you make a distinction between those blobs of cells and the blobs of cells that are aborted? Is it because you believe that it is actually a human life that is being aborted?
A blob of cells is an embryo. So far as I care it's just a group of cells, it knows no pain, it knows no existence any more than your stomach is aware of it's own being, it is just the result of a sperm and an egg.
I don't care about that.
A Fetus is it's own being, it is an actual body, not just a microscopic blob of cells. - that is something altogether different, it is something to care about.
Both can develop into people, but it is of no concern to me, I have better things to do than tell others they're evil sinners just so I can feel good about how righteous I am. :2cents:

Technically, the sperm and egg are both living - but they are not human. The embryo is alive, but it is not a human. I would consider a fetus developed enough for some people to consider as being human though. And that's why there is a distinction between fetus and embryo, the embryo does not have functioning organs, it's not really a seperate being from the mother at all. It may have a beating heart after four/five weeks, yet it still get it's blood and everything else it needs from it's host - like any other organ in the body. The Fetus is something different altogether, it has the beginnings of most of it's organs, it's skeletal system, and is far more of an idependent being from it's mother than the embryo.

If an embryo isn't a human then what is it? You may say it's just a blob of flesh but its DNA code says it's a human. It also has the same cells that a human does. Well if it has the cells and DNA of a human then the chances are that it is a human.

The fetus and the embryo are the same when they start out and when they leave the mother. They aren't really independent because the fetus gets its oxygen and food from the mother. The fetus can't really be independent anymore than the embryo the way I see it because the fetus needs the mother to keep it alive until it leaves the womb.

If your objection is not to kill microscopic life, then aborting an embryo could offend you - as could boiling water for making soup or washing your hands.

I don't think that if you leave the microscopic life forms to be on your hand and in your water dish they'll grow to be a person in 9 months.

No one is bidding on ashes. As far as I know there is only 1 Christian group doing this.



Since that is the only debate in this thread that is on topic, I will answer to that first. The point of that is, NOT that currently there is only one religious group doing this. The point is... Where does it end? If a catholic group wanted ashes, would they be denied? If so, why? That would be unfair for State to say that Christians can have the ashes to bury, but not Catholics. So, the ashes would have to be given to the catholics as well, unless they wanted a lawsuit about religious discrimination. This opens up the door for ANY religious group to get ashes, so they can have their own service for them. Therefore, the fetus is randomly assigned to a religious group for a burial. THAT IS A GREATER INJUSTICE THAN BEING ABORTED. do you get it????

Am I wrong about that? If so, tell me why, don't just say..."as far as I know"... or say something useless like "you were once a fetus".

Now, since anybody can have the ashes to do what they want with... all the fetuses are going to be randomly distributed to different religious groups for each religion's customary burial. That is a greater injustice to the fetus, than being aborted, in my opinion. Now, you saying that it is not a big deal to hand out ashes to a religious group, is like saying its okay to assign the fetus a religion. If I was a fetus (I WILL SAY IT AGAIN so maybe this time you will get the point of WHY I said this)... I would rather be, YES disposed of like medical waste, than to be distributed like a commodity. And if I was the fetus, and you made the decision that it would be okay to do that, it would be a greater injustice to me, than being aborted, which is why they have no right to give the ashes to a religious group. Even if it is only one religious group. HOW did you not understand that. Please tell me you understand. You can not make a decision for the fetus, about what religion it is. I am living proof that you would offend some fetuses.

If DGB454 does not get it this time, somebody PLEASE help me get the point across.



Now, about you saying that I should not get into the debate about whether abortion itsself should be illegal... why would you say that, and then leap right into it yourself? Now I am going to jump on in it too, since you took it there.

DGB454, you said it yourself... too many people have the same view 2strokebloke has. Too many people. Meaning, not enough people have the same view YOU have. There are a million and one things that people disagree about, but it's only fair to treat them all the same. Make the laws based on majority. And the majority believes in their own right to make decisions that affect their own life. I don't like abortion either, but I feel that it is not my right to decide. Which also means, I feel it's not your right to decide. An embrio is not a human, and is not an independent life form. An embrio is just like 2stroke said... the combination of sperm and egg, which has not yet developed into anything of more importance. You were not considered to be alive when you were an embrio. You didnt even have a brain or a heart. I can understand that if it was your baby, "the nano second" the sperm enters the egg, you feel like it is your child. I feel that way too. If my wife was 1 week pregnant, I would feel guilty if we aborted. But not because I killed a kid. Because I killed an embrio that would have eventually formed into my kid, and those thoughts would haunt me. The guilt comes from the fact, that it could have happened if you just left it alone. Not from killing an embrio. I could care less about an embrio, unless there is a personal attachment like I said before. The fact is that until it has formed a brain, and a mind of it's own, it is not a child, and it is simply, just a part of the woman. It doesnt matter how you feel about what COULD have been. It is not murder until it IS actually its own living self.

That is how the majority feels. Until you are part of the majority, it will remain legal. And based on your arguments, it isnt going to change. Your argument is based on emotional attachment to a possibility. You have no right to say that somebody is an evil sinner, because of your attachment to THEIR embrio. That isn't going to cut it. sorry.


That is all I am going to say about that, because that is not the topic of this thread. I am not trying to convince you of the idea that it is okay to abort, but you should realize why you are judging your decision on your own emotions, which hold no importance in an issue of taking away other peoples' rights. If you want to discuss that further, open up a new thread.

NOW... can you please... not get sidetracked before answering the REAL TOPIC HERE. Why should the aborting women, be against the handing out of ashes to religious groups? If you can't answer to my response to that question, and you do again what I already predicted you would do (which was change the subject to the legality of abortion)... then this thread should be closed.

Oh my, DramaQueen454 still can't see issues in anything but terms of black and white. :rolleyes:
First off..never talk down to me. I wouldn't do that to you so I would appreciate the same courtesy. It's not my choice, and it's not your choice. You're opinion that nobody has the right to an abortion makes as much sense as saying that everybody should have an abortion. It's not your body, it's not your problem, it's not your choice, you have no right to decide for anybody else. If abortions had any negative impact on your life at all, your opinion would make more sense. But it should be the choice of a person to kill another person? A blob of cells is an embryo. So far as I care it's just a group of cells, it knows no pain, it knows no existence any more than your stomach is aware of it's own being, it is just the result of a sperm and an egg. I don't care about that. Thats where we differ. I do see an embryo as more than that. A Fetus is it's own being, it is an actual body, not just a microscopic blob of cells. - that is something altogether different, it is something to care about.
Both can develop into people, but it is of no concern to me, I have better things to do than tell others they're evil sinners just so I can feel good about how righteous I am. :2cents:
Not concerned enough to care enough about abortions that you believe are wrong but concerned about a church burying these abotions? Better things to do with your time than to tell people that abortions are wrong but not better things to do with your time than to worry about a churches doing something that is none of your concern?

My :2cents:...Re think your priorities.

Where did I say anything about "evil sinners" or "how righteous I am"?
You assume too much.

Studies have been done, and the baby's heartbeat begins at about 4 weeks. Pain can also be felt at this time.

I have a question though: How are the churches obtaining the (insert your preferred term here) body or ashes to bury?

Since that is the only debate in this thread that is on topic, I will answer to that first. The point of that is, NOT that currently there is only one religious group doing this. The point is... Where does it end? If a catholic group wanted ashes, would they be denied? If so, why? That would be unfair for State to say that Christians can have the ashes to bury, but not Catholics. So, the ashes would have to be given to the catholics as well, unless they wanted a lawsuit about religious discrimination. This opens up the door for ANY religious group to get ashes, so they can have their own service for them.

You're arguement is based on what ifs. What if this happened and what if that happened? Well these things aren't happening and never will. I will stake my membership in this forum that they never will. So this part of you're arguement is moot.
Therefore, the fetus is randomly assigned to a religious group for a burial. THAT IS A GREATER INJUSTICE THAN BEING ABORTED. do you get it????
Again a moot point. Even if this happened you see this as a greater injustice than killing? Am I wrong about that? If so, tell me why, don't just say..."as far as I know"... or say something useless like "you were once a fetus".
OK. since you can't seem to seperate imagination from reality I will say it as simply as I can. You are wrong about that. Now, since anybody can have the ashes to do what they want with... all the fetuses are going to be randomly distributed to different religious groups for each religion's customary burial. That is a greater injustice to the fetus, than being aborted, in my opinion. Now, you saying that it is not a big deal to hand out ashes to a religious group, is like saying its okay to assign the fetus a religion. If I was a fetus (I WILL SAY IT AGAIN so maybe this time you will get the point of WHY I said this)... I would rather be, YES disposed of like medical waste, than to be distributed like a commodity. And if I was the fetus, and you made the decision that it would be okay to do that, it would be a greater injustice to me, than being aborted, which is why they have no right to give the ashes to a religious group. Even if it is only one religious group. HOW did you not understand that. Please tell me you understand. You can not make a decision for the fetus, about what religion it is. I am living proof that you would offend some fetuses.
You are telling me that it's not right to make choices for a fetus yet you are making a choice for it when you abort it. You see a greater injustice in determining that fetusus religious preference than the fetus life preference?
You are living proof that it would offend a fetus? Do you remember what you thought as a fetus? Do you remember thinking...Hmmm.."I hope someone doesn't decide to kill me then give me a Catholic burial. I would just hate sitting through a Catholic service." If DGB454 does not get it this time, somebody PLEASE help me get the point across.
What is the point? That your argument is based not on facts but on guesses of what you believe could happen? Now, about you saying that I should not get into the debate about whether abortion itsself should be illegal... why would you say that, and then leap right into it yourself? Now I am going to jump on in it too, since you took it there. The reason I said you shouldn't get into it wasn't because it shouldn't be explored but because you would probably do better by not trying to argue it. DGB454, you said it yourself... too many people have the same view 2strokebloke has
And that view is that abortion is wrong but it's not worth his time to worry about it correct?. Too many people. Meaning, not enough people have the same view YOU have Wrong again. The majority of the people in the US believe that abortion is wrong. The majority also believe they can't do anything about it so they don't. You were not considered to be alive when you were an embrio. Really? I was not considered to be alive at that stage by whom? You? A doctor? To my parents I was considered to be alive. To God I was considered to be alive.
That is how the majority feels. Until you are part of the majority, it will remain legal.
I'm not looking to get any laws changed as you assume. I am saying that as long as these children are being treated as nothing more than worthless cells then why does anyone care what the church does with them? There is something terribly wrong with a society that places more emphasis on a church performing burials than it does on the children being aborted.
And based on your arguments, it isnt going to change. Your argument is based on emotional attachment to a possibility. You have no right to say that somebody is an evil sinner, because of your attachment to THEIR embrio. That isn't going to cut it. sorry.
Please find in any of my post where I suggested or even hinted at my judgement of anyone being an "evil sinner" . Can't find it?

As I said to 2 stroke...You assume too much.

NOW... can you please... not get sidetracked before answering the REAL TOPIC HERE. Why should the aborting women, be against the handing out of ashes to religious groups? If you can't answer to my response to that question, and you do again what I already predicted you would do (which was change the subject to the legality of abortion)... then this thread should be closed.
I think I answered that question quite well.

From here on out maybe you should stick to not entering into arguements that are based on your imagination.

You know whats funny, after reading each post in here, no one has directed why the abortion takes place and how to deal with it. We will turn blue in the face and both sides are way too much passionate with their views that neither will change their mind. So instead of placing blame or guilt to either side for taking their views why not stop it at the source.
The woman would not need to get an abortion if the actual sex act was not performed. The society that we live in loves to side step so many issues yet most of them would be eliminated or substantially reduce if they attacked the source of the problem.

There are way too many kids having kids these days, and why, because sex is great. But they do not take the extra precaution to protect themselves. By having unprotected sex, they can in turn end up having a baby (among other things) that they were not ready for or wanted. So what happens, the girl/woman is put into a situation that she may not have wanted to be in in the first place. Does she ruin her life, career, expectations and have to bring up a child just because of a few minutes of sex, or does she get rid of it. According to the rules its her decision to make. But the rules would not have to be there if the two of them (both male and female) took the precaution in the first place.

TS out

You know whats funny, after reading each post in here, no one has directed why the abortion takes place and how to deal with it. We will turn blue in the face and both sides are way too much passionate with their views that neither will change their mind. So instead of placing blame or guilt to either side for taking their views why not stop it at the source.
The woman would not need to get an abortion if the actual sex act was not performed. The society that we live in loves to side step so many issues yet most of them would be eliminated or substantially reduce if they attacked the source of the problem.

There are way too many kids having kids these days, and why, because sex is great. But they do not take the extra precaution to protect themselves. By having unprotected sex, they can in turn end up having a baby (among other things) that they were not ready for or wanted. So what happens, the girl/woman is put into a situation that she may not have wanted to be in in the first place. Does she ruin her life, career, expectations and have to bring up a child just because of a few minutes of sex, or does she get rid of it. According to the rules its her decision to make. But the rules would not have to be there if the two of them (both male and female) took the precaution in the first place.

TS out

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but that's as much a political issue as a social issue. Bush is dedicating billions of dollars to promoting abstinence programs, which habe been shown in several studies in HIS HOME STATE to have ZERO impact on teen sex and pregnancy rates. So, regime change, then sexual eduation change. That's my vote.

Right; and some would argue that "the choice" was made at the time of having sex.

I think all of these abstience, anti-drug, anti-whatever programs are all a complete waste of money. You introduce kids to something and tell them not to do it, the majority are going to try it. Scare tactics DO NOT work. When are all of these politicians and anti-whatever people going to realize this? :disappoin

Well teens should be taught that IF you're going to do it, here's how to protect yourself.

Well teens should be taught that IF you're going to do it, here's how to protect yourself.
That i agree with. But using scare tactics generally don't work. In my opinion it has to do more with ones own mentallity, morals, and the way they were brought up.

Exactly; but there's always that genetic drive to reproduce, and people don't always think through their actions beforehand....

Isn't what you guys are saying go hand in hand with the debate? You talk about teenagers getting pregnant and there seems to be no way to get to them. If abortion was banned and teenagers were faced with their actions do you think sex amoung teenagers would drop?

Good question and hard to predict; I think that there might be a slight drop, but I think that there would also be a drop in unwanted pregnancies, as more people protected themselves.

But on the other hand, there would be a lot more people traveling to other countries to "take care of things".

Where did I say anything about "evil sinners" or "how righteous I am"?
You assume too much.
Where did I say you? I was refering to the Church. :p Geeze, take everything personal why don't you.
There are way too many kids having kids these days, and why, because sex is great. But they do not take the extra precaution to protect themselves. By having unprotected sex, they can in turn end up having a baby (among other things) that they were not ready for or wanted. So what happens, the girl/woman is put into a situation that she may not have wanted to be in in the first place. Does she ruin her life, career, expectations and have to bring up a child just because of a few minutes of sex, or does she get rid of it. According to the rules its her decision to make. But the rules would not have to be there if the two of them (both male and female) took the precaution in the first place.
Sex has always been great - the problem is these days fewer babies die during pregnancy/birth, fewer mothers die giving birth, and old people just live too darn long.
Besides, some people would have you believe that condoms, and birth control, or masturbation are all just as evil as abortions - even if they let people have their fun with less risk of increasing the population. IMHO those views that those things are evil is just plain stupid for the world we live in today.