which would be better? (boxes)

alright my ? is which is louder.....i am fairly new to car audio being i just got a car last year.......a sealed box or a ported?

ported

in order.... IB, sealed, ported, T-line, 4th order b-pass, 6th-order bpass. Take into consideration that each enclosure degrades in sound quality in that order with the exception of a transmission line, which is better then regualr ported in SQ.... but very difficult to correctly build.

what about snail shell

yea i was thinkin ported but some friends said sealed

sealed sucks IMO ....snail shells are transmission lines.

Ya thats what i was thinkin too, jus didnt know thats what they were called. To me, sealed is just a way of hookin up a sub quickly n simply. Many people will argue that sealed is pure sound quality, but i think a properly built ported enclosure can sound just as good, SS specially.

Many people will argue that sealed is pure sound quality, but i think a properly built ported enclosure can sound just as good

as far as transient response goes, sure, but as for upper bass, low bass, and flat frequency response in a car, not a chance in hell

sealed boxes:deep and accurate . sealed boxes tend to need a lot of power.it all depends on how the woofer matches the box.deep bass extensions and excellent power handing (ported boxes) deep and lively ported boxes use amplifier power more efficiently.you get more output than you would from a comparable sealed box at anu given amplifier wattage

bandpass boxes are rap monsters.(bandpass boxes are very efficient.)boxes are usually very loud and often very boomy,are designed for maximum thump .

Ported tuned low can sound just as good as sealed AS LONG AS you have VERY strong midbasses to keep up starting around 60hz

sealed boxes:deep and accurate . sealed boxes tend to need a lot of power.it all depends on how the woofer matches the box.deep bass extensions and excellent power handing (ported boxes) deep and lively ported boxes use amplifier power more efficiently.you get more output than you would from a comparable sealed box at anu given amplifier wattage

Incorrect.
A properly built ported box is just as accurate as a sealed box. T/S parameters ultamitle determine what enclosure will be optimal but generally for car stereo Bass Reflux is the best (ported)

As far as loudness goes order is as follows.
IB, Sealed, Ported, 4th Order Bandpass, TL, Horn, 6th Order Bandpass.

IB: Great SQ. Because you do not utilize sound waves coming fro mthe rear of the cone you automoaticly loose 3dB.

Sealed: Personally i dont like how they sound. they have a flatter responce but it is also not as loud and the -3dB drop off often comes long before you even get near dabbleing in Infrabass frequincies. Of coruse you wont be listening to Music with 15Hz tones so unless you are a home theatre buff these work fine. They are the simplest to construct and calculate for unless your are looking for the best responce curve or a peak at a certian Fs.

Ported: aka 4th order bas reflux. The first to utilize the energy from the rear of the cone. High tuning allows for high SPL but doesnt do much for low extension because the responce drops off like a cliff around 1/2 octave below tuning. SQ is equal to that of a sealed enclosure if properly constructed and calulated, i also prefer the sound of ported.

4th Order bandpass: Though it doesnt utilize the waves from the rear of the cone the port works with great efficency in its frequincy band. SQ is saccrifecd because the narrow frequincy band makes bass with any ammount of frequincy range sound "Boomy" if improperly integraded into the stereo. If properly integraded into the stereo it can actually sound very good.

Transmission Line: These are really amazing enclosures. Tey are basically one big port from the back of the woofer on. They work with great efficnecy. This is because there is perfect delay time between front cone excursion and rear cone waves reaching open space. Spectacualr SQ (that of IB) if properly constructed. The whole idea is to make the line 1/2 or 1/4 the wavelength of the desired tune frequincy with the exact "port" area of the cone. These will give a 6dB gain at and around tuning frequincy and 3-6dB everywhere else.drivers with low overall Q work wonders in these.

Horn: Great SQ, Awsome bass, amazing enclsoures. downfall? they are extremely large. cone mouth must have a diameter of 1/2 Fs for optimal eficency. What does that mean? you want to tune to 20Hz... the wave length of 20Hz is 56.35ft. that is a mouth diameter of just over 28ft. Not propable for home use. It cane be cut down to 1/4 for 1/2 the efficiency (still very efficent) but that is still a very large mouth. Ever been to a rock concert? noticed thoes giant boxes on or next to the stage? figure out they are what are pumping out that massive ammount of bass? thoes are bass horns. it is possible ot make a very efficent horn for home use but it isnt propable for car stereo use. (as a matter of fact i know a guy who got 116dB in room from 23w and a JL w0 10)

6th Order. Extremely efficent, horribly peaky responce curve. often 2 different tunnings are used to help flatten it out. Adire Tempst 6th order calulated by Win ISD.... you figure it out. 1st one is with tuning at 20Hz and 100Hz and hte second one at 40 and the other at 41. im getting some SPL ideas.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/CBFryman/bandpass.bmp

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/CBFryman/bandpass2.bmp

Edit: sorry, i put an SPL chart on the 1st one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/CBFryman/aaaa.bmp

After messing adound in WinISD i was able to get a peak gian of 30.6dB@46.52Hz by making the Front chamber 101l and hte rear 100l and the front Fs 45Hz and the rear 47Hz....now these figures arent real world but according to this i should be making 121.4dB from 1w with a tempest..... of course WinISD also says a tempest will get louder than a Brahma untill you give the brahama nearly 75% more power. ie the tempest has 400w and the brahma has 700w. in a ported enclosure the brahma would have maxed out its suspension by then..... hmmmmm....

Ported tuned low can sound just as good as sealed AS LONG AS you have VERY strong midbasses to keep up starting around 60hz
sure, if by very strong midbass you mean they can out perform the sub by 10-15dB from 50hz+. This is physically impossible unless you have
1) ported door pods
2) multiple midbasses
3) some INSANE midbass drivers like the xxx, extremis, or anything very good that's 8" or larger (dls iridium 8.x, dynaudio system 360, PG titanium 951, those are all that I know of, and even those probably wouldn't be able to do it)

A properly built ported box is just as accurate as a sealed box.
accurate how?
if you mean being "quick" then yes, if you mean accurate as in playing what was intended as accurately as possible, definitely not

but generally for car stereo Bass Reflux is the best
absolutely not
ported is best for home where the flat anechoic response resembles the actual in-room response very closely. You stick a ported box in a car and the cabin gain will screw it up royally. With some SEVERE EQing you can tame the response so it's relatively flat, but this will take a lot of processing power. Meanwhile, all you have to do is drop a decent sub in a decent sealed box and you have a near perfect in-car response right away. When I put my brahma in the car I measured the response, and apart from a small 2dB drop at 31hz, it's bone flat from the high teens to the 50hz lowpass. If you can take ANY sub in ANY ported box and pull a response like that, I will paypal you $10 right now (just because I'm determined doesn't mean I'm not poor ;))

the tempest has 400w and the brahma has 700w. in a ported enclosure the brahma would have maxed out its suspension by then..... hmmmmm....

the brahma would be bottoming out with 700rms ported?
I hope you mean the tempest, because ported the brahma would be able to take the full 1500 or more as long as you're talking about above tuning. Even sealed the brahma can handle more than 700rms before bottoming unless it's in a HUGE enclosure, and ported drastically reduces the excursion, especially around tuning.

One of the best SQ systems I know of is a ported se 15 off 1200 watts xed over at 55hz to dls Ur6's and while not COMPLETELY flat its pretty damn even. I go by what my ears tell me not some bullshit mic

and I go by what my ears tell me too, which is that the response of a ported box is way too peaky in a car to be considered a real SQ setup without some severe EQing. Sealed, on the other hand, sounds much smoother and much more natural, without any of those nasty peaks that sound so out of place. The mic simply backs up my thoughts, the thoughts that I held before I ever stuck it in my car and tested it.

Ported tuned low can sound just as good as sealed AS LONG AS you have VERY strong midbasses to keep up starting around 60hz
sure, if by very strong midbass you mean they can out perform the sub by 10-15dB from 50hz+. This is physically impossible unless you have
1) ported door pods
2) multiple midbasses
3) some INSANE midbass drivers like the xxx, extremis, or anything very good that's 8" or larger (dls iridium 8.x, dynaudio system 360, PG titanium 951, those are all that I know of, and even those probably wouldn't be able to do it)

A properly built ported box is just as accurate as a sealed box.
accurate how?
if you mean being "quick" then yes, if you mean accurate as in playing what was intended as accurately as possible, definitely not

but generally for car stereo Bass Reflux is the best
absolutely not
ported is best for home where the flat anechoic response resembles the actual in-room response very closely. You stick a ported box in a car and the cabin gain will screw it up royally. With some SEVERE EQing you can tame the response so it's relatively flat, but this will take a lot of processing power. Meanwhile, all you have to do is drop a decent sub in a decent sealed box and you have a near perfect in-car response right away. When I put my brahma in the car I measured the response, and apart from a small 2dB drop at 31hz, it's bone flat from the high teens to the 50hz lowpass. If you can take ANY sub in ANY ported box and pull a response like that, I will paypal you $10 right now (just because I'm determined doesn't mean I'm not poor ;))

Guys, you are all kinda right but you all are kinda missing the point. Not one box style is right for all subs or place of install. You all bring up very good points but without taking in consideration of the product being used and what it is used in, you all are toast.

Sealed boxes when built out of the right material, are the correct size for BOTH the sub and the car, are usually the best bet for about 95% of the time. Next would be ported boxes in the same mannor as above. Now, for 4th, 6th, or whatever order those are usually only used if either you have a serverely ineffecient driver or bad vehicle configuration. I use have to build a lot of those 10 years ago but with today's driver technology it has almost became a thing of the past.

RustingStang77, you flamed me on my box being tuned for 45htz. Do you really know what being tuned for 45htz means especially when you are using my vehicle's cabin structure??? Do you know what the difference is between say 20, 30, 40, or 50htz? You may play like you do but my guess is that you do not. Numerous SPL & SQ trophys should tell you otherwise. :loser:

then it comes down to how much room do have to spare
and money.because you will get all kinds of stories on boxes just go find a good shop that makes good custom boxes.

If you have enough power and a strong enough sub, a sealed box will get you the best sound with the least effort on your part. If you want a ported box to sound as good as a sealed box, you will have to put in a lot more work for the same result. If you cant afford a big amp and strong sub, then I say go ported. Lets look at it like this. If your sub and amp combo are not powerful, and you use a selaed box, you will get peaky bass notes that will not hold. If you toss the same subs into a decently built ported box, the bass notes will hold longer and deeper. I preferred ported boxes for a long time, until I heard a good sealed box setup. They can hold a note just as good as a ported box if you have the proper equipment, and then the response is a lot more accurate and clean. I would prefer a good sealed box setup that hits mid 130's with great SQ for an every day system. Like ponchocruddy said theres ups and downs for each situation. And btw I was the one who flamed on your 45 HZ tuning. Ouch.

Guys, you are all kinda right but you all are kinda missing the point. Not one box style is right for all subs or place of install. You all bring up very good points but without taking in consideration of the product being used and what it is used in, you all are toast.

Sealed boxes when built out of the right material, are the correct size for BOTH the sub and the car, are usually the best bet for about 95% of the time. Next would be ported boxes in the same mannor as above. Now, for 4th, 6th, or whatever order those are usually only used if either you have a serverely ineffecient driver or bad vehicle configuration. I use have to build a lot of those 10 years ago but with today's driver technology it has almost became a thing of the past.

RustingStang77, you flamed me on my box being tuned for 45htz. Do you really know what being tuned for 45htz means especially when you are using my vehicle's cabin structure??? Do you know what the difference is between say 20, 30, 40, or 50htz? You may play like you do but my guess is that you do not. Numerous SPL & SQ trophys should tell you otherwise. :loser:

Your hilarious. I do know what tuned to 45hz is. NO LOW END. Nothing below 43ish hz. I'm sorry, but I don't want a HUGE peak in my response at 50hz. My system is tuned to 28hz which makes it slighly bottom heavy but no nasty peaks. And I have a hard time believing you have any SPL trophies. If you were competing in street A you would get ripped a new one by say someone running a couple SX 10's w/ 1kw each in a CRX. SUV's suck for bass, esp. when running small woofers. Hell my system is probably louder then yours and mine is tuned for sql. So buddy tell just what numbers are you hitting ON THE NEW TERMLAB SENSOR.....if u wanna argue straight up spl then fine just note that the people w/ the better systems on this board (like me sr20 theeds soon to be system) Will play nice and even and still get into the 140's. Mine hasn't been metered yet but I'm guessing a 142-145. Ohh also I'd like to know who you go to for SPL advice, because my buddy Loyd who has taught me a lot that I know about spl is known around the world for what he can do.

heh, I don't even really care about his SPL comment, I just find it funny that he mentions SQ trophies in reference to boxes tuned to 45hz. To find a ported box in a successful competition SQ car is a rare thing in itself, but even if you manage to find one, you will NEVER find one tuned that high. ~30hz would be the highest you will find because with some EQing you can manage a decently flat response out of those, but with a 45hz box, there is nothing you can do to add output in the 20's, it's just gone forever, which will not get you very far in SQ.

28Hz bottom Heavy? Nah.... 15 will do... lol.
But seriously 28Hz with some drivers is WAY to high and with others is WAY to low. Example (im so happy now that i figured out how to post responce charts)
Adire Audio Tempest (Fs 18.8Hz)
Digital Designs DD3015-4 (Fs 34Hz)

Green: Tempest 283.5l 19.46Hz Tuning
Red: DD3015 411l (humongo) 26.22Hz Tuning
Yellow: Tempest 411l 26.22Hz Tuning
Blue: DD3015 283.5l 19.46Hz Tuning
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/CBFryman/12A.bmp
Granted this is in an open evitonment and cabin gain in a car will give substantial standing waves...but it looks pretty on paper.

Granted this is in an open evitonment and cabin gain in a car will give substantial standing waves...but it looks pretty on paper.

hence my above comment:
ported is best for home where the flat anechoic response resembles the actual in-room response very closely. You stick a ported box in a car and the cabin gain will screw it up royally.

that flat anechoic response that you just found in WinISD is the same one that I was talking about here, you stick that in a car and you'll get a ~12dB/oct rise starting at the resonant frequency of the car (55hz or so). With a sealed box, this basically cancels out the 12dB/oct drop in response that starts at the F3 of the sub/box combo (around 50hz, depending of course on the specific sub and bo) and you wind up with a pretty flat result. But if you take a sub/box set that's almost perfectly flat already and you stick it in a car, you'll wind up with an incredibly bottom heavy result.

OK one more time. Remember above talking about building the right box for the right driver for the right vehicle???? Well, that's why I am tuned at 45htz!!! The way my system is set up(actually was) is that I got more resonance that what I needed when I had a box tuned at 33htz. The curve looked like it fell off a cliff. So, I had to bump it up. I didn't know what it was gonna do until I metered it.

BTW, SUV's are great for SPL because they are so airy. The more loose air you have the better chance of getting more SPL. If that wasn't the case, then you'd see only reg. cab trucks and such. For the world record a large van was used.

Granted, this setup would be sucky in a Civic or hatchback but for a Liberty and Directed, it was right on. It was able to go as low as 18htz AND hit a 147.3. All of that out of 2 little 10" subs. Granted it isn't great compared to larger subs but in it's catagory, it cleaned up the competition.

OK one more time. Remember above talking about building the right box for the right driver for the right vehicle???? Well, that's why I am tuned at 45htz!!! The way my system is set up(actually was) is that I got more resonance that what I needed when I had a box tuned at 33htz. The curve looked like it fell off a cliff. So, I had to bump it up. I didn't know what it was gonna do until I metered it.

BTW, SUV's are great for SPL because they are so airy. The more loose air you have the better chance of getting more SPL. If that wasn't the case, then you'd see only reg. cab trucks and such. For the world record a large van was used.

Granted, this setup would be sucky in a Civic or hatchback but for a Liberty and Directed, it was right on. It was able to go as low as 18htz AND hit a 147.3. All of that out of 2 little 10" subs. Granted it isn't great compared to larger subs but in it's catagory, it cleaned up the competition.

If you read when I said this WAS what I had in the demo car, well this is why. I am building some new things to try out. DEI has come out with a new SX line that no one has any numbers on. I have the glassed box about done but am testing a sealed enclosure at this time. This is the rough shape of the glassed box. It will be painted the same Jade Green Metallic to match the Jeep but I will have 3D ghost flames painted to match those on the side of the Jeep.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/94610steves_box_001.jpg
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/94610steves_box_006.jpg
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/94610steves_box_009.jpg
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/94610steves_box_010.jpg

I don't care what you say, you cannot hit 18hz with your box tuned to 45, and you cannot hit 147dB unless it was a really loose mic.

yes you need to build the right box for the sub and car, but no matter what sub and no matter what car, 45hz will never be a SQ tune. It would work very well for a set of midbass drivers as long as you had a sub to clean up the area below ~50hz to keep the mids from unloading, but you cannot have a sub tuned to 45hz and expect any kind of low end or even a reasonably flat response out of it, in any car.

And yes SPL cars use vans and suvs, but not because they're so great for bass, it's because they can fit a ridiculous amount of equipment in them. Plus every true SPL competitor walls it off so it has an airspace similar to a single cap pickup or a small hatchback, more loose air does NOT yield more output.

You iddn't hit a 147 ont the new termlab end of story. And like SR20 said all the big comp vehicles uses vans but LOOK theyre walled off decreasing the airspace to smaller then a car. lok at street a and street b cars almost all small hatchbacks w/a crx style box and yes they are hitting close to the big boys w/ WAY less equipment. As far as SQ goes just like sr20 said 45 hz can't yield a flat response and unless u were the only nonaudiobahn setup at some local shops show then I don't believe you won SQ trophies or SPL for that matter. I will bet every bit of money in my pocket (around 270 bucks) My system (which does LOWER then a 147 probably between 142-145) which is tuned to 28 hz will eat your demo jeep up in SQ and SPL......I'm also gunna say the same for SR20's car.

alright my ? is which is louder.....i am fairly new to car audio being i just got a car last year.......a sealed box or a ported?

ok BACK to what the thread is really about please! we can argue about subs and boxes forever, seriously

people can argue about dB, all that yummy stuff, all the numbers for competitions, all that fuss...

to answer your question, ported is louder than sealed hands down. However, you do lose response. Here's some links to help you get started with your interest in car audio :evillol:

http://www.futureshop.ca/learnmore/BuyersGuide/en/electronics_car_subwoofer.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=9&WLBS=fsweb5&test%5Fcookie=1

And as far as boxes go, here's a link to the pros and cons of each box:
http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/theories.html

Yea his question was already answered and were arguing cua this dude did not hit a 147

Whatever guys. I guess since I don't have overpriced, always on back order stuff I just can't win with you.

yeah ok, mr "I can hit 18hz with a 45hz tuned box"

and if it's so overpriced, why is it always sold out?

RE is hardly ever on backorder and RE/Adire is anything but overpriced. Taks the brahma and xxx for example....most people like them better then W7's they are considered to be on the same level. For a 13w7 its 1000 bucks. For a brahma 15 or xxx 15 your looking at just over 400bucks. Tempests and shivas (which are better then the w3v2 line from jl) are 125 and 150. SE's, which have great SQ and can get DAMN loud are only 200 for the 15's. Go look at ED's prices their K-series is dirt cheap. And the RE series from RE wow VERY cheap for the performance. And MT's where else can you get a sub that can EASILY handle over 4kw of continuous power and nearly 10kw on burps for under $600. I just wanna know b/c if there's something better out there for a better price then I need to check it out.

JL w713 can be bought for around $600 new. $999 is the MSRP and no one pays MSRP. The thing with the Brahma and XXX you wont get them for anything but MSRP unless they are used. But yes, Adire and RE are great companies for the price. and anyone who likes a w7 more than a brahma or XXX is being payed by JL. the w7 is a wonderful woofer. but the Brahma and XXX are louder and sound just as good.

if you pay 600 for the JL you don't get warranty or authorized service

Negative, Local dealer will install them for you, but then agian you are reall paying a few extra hundred because of "Install" charges. They are an authorized JLaudio dealer. HTey make up for the lost money by charging over $200 to have an enclosure built to spec. and that is jsut carpeted, for fiberglass they will run you into the 500's.

man, some of you guys are funny

the problem with putting a box in a sealed vehicle is that you are essentially putting that box inside another sealed box ...... so that anechoic modeling doesn't work that well.

As far as tuning a ported box, at much below the tuning frequency - the speaker is unloaded, meaning it is basically flapping in the wind cuz there is no back pressure being provided by the box. A box tuned to 45 Hz may play down to 20 Hz ....... but the output will be significantly reduced (probably inaudible over the other bass notes) and the speaker will popping madly with only a small amout of power.

What's your point? No one that I know of tunes to 45 on here and no one said modeling boxes will yield accurate in car response. And no your not putting a sealed box in a another sealed box..... you do get some cabin gain, but that's not because the car is sealed off it has to do will the waves being direct towards the front of the car and the SPL can localize to the inside of the vehicle instead of all air around it. Most ppl bump with the windows down anyways its louder and lower that way (My windows are down even if its below 0)

Well technically you can only have true standing waves if there is enough area for at least 1 wave length to complete. if it cant then its just pressure changes that create sound. Which is why if you cant create standing waves with the frequincy you are playing you want it to be as selaed as tight as possible to create optimal pressure changes.
The reason it is louder and lower (i know you know this Bumpin' but this is for all the other people) with the window down is because you are basically sitting inside the port of a 4th order bandpass enclosure. Not really but technically it is a very large one tuned extremely low. you are giving the sound waves one good way to escape, through the window past you head. if you close the window SPL in the vehicle as a whole increases but it isnt being concentreted where you are sitting. persoanally i like it because it makes the steering wheel and seat vibrate even more.

The subs themselves and the soundwaves act nothing like being in an eclosure in the car......if you want to compare it to badpass boxes sealed or wheatever I see why you make the comparisons, but what's the point of this discuassion anyways?

IB IB IB!.

at least thast what i'm doing right now. muahaha. too bad top end suffers, but i don't care, i got some midbass drivers to take care of that. muahaha. IB doesn't get as loud as a properly built box so i don't have to worry much about exaggeration at resonance. If anything, i'd EQ it out.



since we are on the topic of which box is better, how about we throw in the "which car is better" question? It's a never ending battle because none of the boxes are 100% better than the other.

CRX hands down.... well for spl that is.