no power and check engine light
ned032002
01-15-2005, 10:26 PM
my car has had this problem where it wants to buck like hell and there is no power and the check engine light keeps coming on when this happens also the rpm gauge drops to about 500 RPMs when this occurs. ive tried changing the spark plugs i also gapped them at .44 and the wires, O2 sensor, fuel filter, fuel pump, sending unit, im think about changing the coil pack next but dont want to spend the money if i dont have to does any body else have this problem or had this problem. is there any sensors i should be checking? any ways help me soon please!
Diplomat
01-16-2005, 12:58 AM
All your profile says is '92 Eagle Talon. As of this year, (last year, actually) year, make, model and transmission now go in your signature.
Do you have a Pocketlogger? If not, have you checked for diagnostic trouble codes yet? When did this problem start? Did it occur shortly after a modification or engine cleaning? Have the caps in your ECU ever been changed?
You've done the right thing by checking the more obvious/common problems like old plugs and wires. Unfortunately, it's hard to suggest what else to do with so little information.
Don't be afraid to go into detail, it's ok.
Do you have a Pocketlogger? If not, have you checked for diagnostic trouble codes yet? When did this problem start? Did it occur shortly after a modification or engine cleaning? Have the caps in your ECU ever been changed?
You've done the right thing by checking the more obvious/common problems like old plugs and wires. Unfortunately, it's hard to suggest what else to do with so little information.
Don't be afraid to go into detail, it's ok.
EclipseRST
01-16-2005, 01:11 AM
Its a n/t. Anyways you should check the power transducer, its a little black rectangle box attached to a metal bracket that is bolted to your intake manifold. Make sure it is plugged in good and tight! That will cause a misfire and make your car run like shit if it does not have a good connection and if it is not grounded. If everything seems good with that then I would either test or replace your coil packs.
EDIT: The transducer is located by your coil packs on the right side of the manifold.
EDIT: The transducer is located by your coil packs on the right side of the manifold.
Diplomat
01-16-2005, 02:22 AM
"Its a n/t." - EclipseRSTI certainly hope so if he's gapping his plugs to 0.044", lol. But there's still no mention of whether it's a 4G37 or 4G63.
That little black box that Jake is talking about is also called a "power transistor" in the Haynes manual in case you need to look it up to locate it. Once you find it, start your car and fiddle with the connector (beware of flesh-eating belts) with the engine running just to see if it affects it's behavior.
When my power transistor was acting up, it did not mess with my tachometer as you mentioned. It only caused the misfiring/poor running condition and I thought the problem was in the connector/wires since messing with the harness made the problem go away/return. I took it off the car and found that the terminals on the transistor itself were VERY corroded. After cleaning it up, I tested it according to the Haynes manual and the thing checked out. I put it back on the car and within 50 miles it started acting up again.
Unfortunately the thing is hermetically sealed so there's no taking it apart and replacing/resoldering things and a new one ain't cheap. You can find cheap used ones online, but like I said, they can't be rebuilt and I don't know if there is a definite way of testing how much life is left in them. If you suspect that this is the problem, see if you can find one in a junkyard, or better yet, borrow one that you know is working. If you install it and everything works, THEN buy a new one.
OH, and get a DSM Technical Manual (http://www.ecanfix.com/~manualcd/index2.htm). Haynes is nice to have if you're stuck on the side of the road, trying to remember the damn firing order for those plug wires your buddy just tore off. However, there are some screw-ups in that book and the tech manual gives you way more information.
That little black box that Jake is talking about is also called a "power transistor" in the Haynes manual in case you need to look it up to locate it. Once you find it, start your car and fiddle with the connector (beware of flesh-eating belts) with the engine running just to see if it affects it's behavior.
When my power transistor was acting up, it did not mess with my tachometer as you mentioned. It only caused the misfiring/poor running condition and I thought the problem was in the connector/wires since messing with the harness made the problem go away/return. I took it off the car and found that the terminals on the transistor itself were VERY corroded. After cleaning it up, I tested it according to the Haynes manual and the thing checked out. I put it back on the car and within 50 miles it started acting up again.
Unfortunately the thing is hermetically sealed so there's no taking it apart and replacing/resoldering things and a new one ain't cheap. You can find cheap used ones online, but like I said, they can't be rebuilt and I don't know if there is a definite way of testing how much life is left in them. If you suspect that this is the problem, see if you can find one in a junkyard, or better yet, borrow one that you know is working. If you install it and everything works, THEN buy a new one.
OH, and get a DSM Technical Manual (http://www.ecanfix.com/~manualcd/index2.htm). Haynes is nice to have if you're stuck on the side of the road, trying to remember the damn firing order for those plug wires your buddy just tore off. However, there are some screw-ups in that book and the tech manual gives you way more information.
EclipseRST
01-16-2005, 02:34 AM
By what he posted you can tell its a 4g63...
Diplomat
01-16-2005, 02:46 AM
"...im think about changing the coil pack next..." - ned032002Lol, I totally missed it. :icon16:
EclipseRST
01-16-2005, 02:52 AM
Lol, I totally missed it. :icon16:
:thumbsup:
Also check out his introduction post... thats were I found out he was n/a, when he said it was "FWD non-turbo" :p
:thumbsup:
Also check out his introduction post... thats were I found out he was n/a, when he said it was "FWD non-turbo" :p
ned032002
01-16-2005, 08:51 PM
[QUOTE=Diplomat] 4G37 or 4G63.
What does this mean and does anybody think that changing the coil pack will help and should I check that little black box first?
What does this mean and does anybody think that changing the coil pack will help and should I check that little black box first?
Diplomat
01-20-2005, 06:00 AM
"What does this mean...?" - ned032002 Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I somehow missed your last post.
4G63, 4G37, and 420A are designations for the engines used on the different model DSM's. All motors were Inline 4 cylinder (I-4) designs with the following differences:
The 4G37 is a Mitsubishi built 1.8L, 8 valve, SOHC motor used on the base model non-turbo FWD 1G DSM's. At about 92 HP, they were quite underpowered, considering the weight of the DSM chassis. Although I was able to "chirp" second gear in my old 4G37 5 speed on crappy Falken Ziex ZE-502's. The best thing about them is that they seem to have Honda-like reliability with minimal maintenance. I nearly floored mine at every traffic light ('cause it was so damn slow) and I never had any major mechanical failures. However, they do come with the infamous lifter tick.
The 420A is a 2.0L, 16 valve, DOHC motor which replaced the 4G37 on the base model DSM's when the 2G's came out in '95. It's the only DSM motor built by Chrysler. I've never been a fan of American made four cylinders, but at least this motor produces about 50 more horses than the 4G37 (roughly 140 HP). The bad news about the 420A is that it's nearly the exact same motor is used in some Neons :lol:. The good news about the 420A is that it's nearly the exact same motor used in some Neons. :thinkerg: Since there are so many Neons on the road driven by young people who wanna go fast, there's quite a bit of aftermarket support for them. You can find a lot of Neon performance stuff with a basic Google search. You may find some parts which will work on a 420A DSM engine, but exhaust and intake parts aren't interchangable since the motors are mounted differently in each chassis.
[Note: American car manufacturers have never shown a huge interest in four cylinder performance. Therefore, a lot of hardcore sport compact guys who cut their teeth on import four bangers have had a hard time accepting these American built motors into the ranks. Many of these motors lack the potential for power found in some popular Japanese imports. This is why some people love to give 420A owners such a hard time. However, it should also be noted that there are few really quick Neons on the road, even among the non-turbos. So 420A DSM's aren't all that bad. But if forced induction is going to be one of your future modifications, it's ultimately cheaper to just buy a turbo DSM.]
Finally, we have the beloved 4G63. This motor comes in two flavors: turbo and non-turbo. Both versions are 2.0L, 16 valve, DOHC. The non-turbo 4G63 was the intermediate engine offered for the 1G's which was replaced by the 420A in the 2G's. It put out around 135 HP and was almost identical to it's turbocharged brother. Unfortunately, there are a few mechanical and electrical differences between the two motors that keep the non-turbo 4G63 owners from simply "bolting" a factory turbo on to their ride. Of course there are a fair number of aftermarket go-fast parts made for the N/A (normally aspirated, i.e. non-turbo) 4G63.
Some 1G N/A 4G63 owners get a little discouraged when they sink a bunch of cash into their motor and find that they're having a hard time keeping up with their modified Honda buddies. What you have to keep in mind is that, even though your DSM and your friends' Civic might have dynoed the same numbers, his car weighs around 300-400 lbs. lighter than yours.
Enter the 4G63 turbo, often referred to as the 4G63T. Depending on when you bought your turbocharged DSM, it would create between 195 and 210 HP. The 4G63T's were offered on some FWD DSM's and came standard on every AWD model. This is the DSM motor you will find the most aftermarket support for. With a relatively small investment, you can expect to squeeze around 300 wheel horsepower out of a 4G63T with basic bolt-ons. If you've got some money saved up, it's generally agreed that you can get up to 450 WHP from a 6 bolt (early model 4G63T) motor without internal modifications. Assuming you've tuned everything properly, you can expect decent reliability from a 4G63T at this level of modification. Of course, there are a few famous DSM's that create closer to 1000 WHP. Although very few of us have the time and money to give those cars the constant attention and fuel they require, and even fewer posess the skill drive them.
4G63, 4G37, and 420A are designations for the engines used on the different model DSM's. All motors were Inline 4 cylinder (I-4) designs with the following differences:
The 4G37 is a Mitsubishi built 1.8L, 8 valve, SOHC motor used on the base model non-turbo FWD 1G DSM's. At about 92 HP, they were quite underpowered, considering the weight of the DSM chassis. Although I was able to "chirp" second gear in my old 4G37 5 speed on crappy Falken Ziex ZE-502's. The best thing about them is that they seem to have Honda-like reliability with minimal maintenance. I nearly floored mine at every traffic light ('cause it was so damn slow) and I never had any major mechanical failures. However, they do come with the infamous lifter tick.
The 420A is a 2.0L, 16 valve, DOHC motor which replaced the 4G37 on the base model DSM's when the 2G's came out in '95. It's the only DSM motor built by Chrysler. I've never been a fan of American made four cylinders, but at least this motor produces about 50 more horses than the 4G37 (roughly 140 HP). The bad news about the 420A is that it's nearly the exact same motor is used in some Neons :lol:. The good news about the 420A is that it's nearly the exact same motor used in some Neons. :thinkerg: Since there are so many Neons on the road driven by young people who wanna go fast, there's quite a bit of aftermarket support for them. You can find a lot of Neon performance stuff with a basic Google search. You may find some parts which will work on a 420A DSM engine, but exhaust and intake parts aren't interchangable since the motors are mounted differently in each chassis.
[Note: American car manufacturers have never shown a huge interest in four cylinder performance. Therefore, a lot of hardcore sport compact guys who cut their teeth on import four bangers have had a hard time accepting these American built motors into the ranks. Many of these motors lack the potential for power found in some popular Japanese imports. This is why some people love to give 420A owners such a hard time. However, it should also be noted that there are few really quick Neons on the road, even among the non-turbos. So 420A DSM's aren't all that bad. But if forced induction is going to be one of your future modifications, it's ultimately cheaper to just buy a turbo DSM.]
Finally, we have the beloved 4G63. This motor comes in two flavors: turbo and non-turbo. Both versions are 2.0L, 16 valve, DOHC. The non-turbo 4G63 was the intermediate engine offered for the 1G's which was replaced by the 420A in the 2G's. It put out around 135 HP and was almost identical to it's turbocharged brother. Unfortunately, there are a few mechanical and electrical differences between the two motors that keep the non-turbo 4G63 owners from simply "bolting" a factory turbo on to their ride. Of course there are a fair number of aftermarket go-fast parts made for the N/A (normally aspirated, i.e. non-turbo) 4G63.
Some 1G N/A 4G63 owners get a little discouraged when they sink a bunch of cash into their motor and find that they're having a hard time keeping up with their modified Honda buddies. What you have to keep in mind is that, even though your DSM and your friends' Civic might have dynoed the same numbers, his car weighs around 300-400 lbs. lighter than yours.
Enter the 4G63 turbo, often referred to as the 4G63T. Depending on when you bought your turbocharged DSM, it would create between 195 and 210 HP. The 4G63T's were offered on some FWD DSM's and came standard on every AWD model. This is the DSM motor you will find the most aftermarket support for. With a relatively small investment, you can expect to squeeze around 300 wheel horsepower out of a 4G63T with basic bolt-ons. If you've got some money saved up, it's generally agreed that you can get up to 450 WHP from a 6 bolt (early model 4G63T) motor without internal modifications. Assuming you've tuned everything properly, you can expect decent reliability from a 4G63T at this level of modification. Of course, there are a few famous DSM's that create closer to 1000 WHP. Although very few of us have the time and money to give those cars the constant attention and fuel they require, and even fewer posess the skill drive them.
ned032002
01-21-2005, 12:39 AM
Finally, we have the beloved 4G63. This motor comes in two flavors: turbo and non-turbo. Both versions are 2.0L, 16 valve, DOHC. The non-turbo 4G63 was the intermediate engine offered for the 1G's which was replaced by the 420A in the 2G's. It put out around 135 HP and was almost identical to it's turbocharged brother. Unfortunately, there are a few mechanical and electrical differences between the two motors that keep the non-turbo 4G63 owners from simply "bolting" a factory turbo on to their ride. Of course there are a fair number of aftermarket go-fast parts made for the N/A (normally aspirated, i.e. non-turbo) 4G63.
Some 1G N/A 4G63 owners get a little discouraged when they sink a bunch of cash into their motor and find that they're having a hard time keeping up with their modified Honda buddies. What you have to keep in mind is that, even though your DSM and your friends' Civic might have dynoed the same numbers, his car weighs around 300-400 lbs. lighter than yours.
So does this mean that my car is a 1g or a 2g? Also this would mean that I have a 4g63 right?
Some 1G N/A 4G63 owners get a little discouraged when they sink a bunch of cash into their motor and find that they're having a hard time keeping up with their modified Honda buddies. What you have to keep in mind is that, even though your DSM and your friends' Civic might have dynoed the same numbers, his car weighs around 300-400 lbs. lighter than yours.
So does this mean that my car is a 1g or a 2g? Also this would mean that I have a 4g63 right?
EclipseRST
01-21-2005, 01:05 AM
It is a 1g... And yes it has a 4G63.
1g = 90-94
1g = 90-94
macder
01-21-2005, 05:39 AM
....aftermarket go-fast parts made for the N/A (normally aspirated, i.e. non-turbo)
It actually means Naturally Aspirated, and as far as a modified honda being faster then a modified 4g63N/A, someone obviously did not know what they where doing w/ the motor.
It actually means Naturally Aspirated, and as far as a modified honda being faster then a modified 4g63N/A, someone obviously did not know what they where doing w/ the motor.
Diplomat
01-22-2005, 07:55 AM
"It actually means Naturally Aspirated..." - macderRight. I always say "normally" aspirated when I'm talking to people for some reason, but you get the idea.
"... and as far as a modified honda being faster then a modified 4g63N/A, someone obviously did not know what they where doing w/ the motor." - macderLol, I tend to agree. Just in case anyone was confused with what I'd said, let me clear things up a bit.
In my scenario, I stated that we had two FWD cars with similar dyno results, one being lighter than the other. If we used the same driver in both cars, the lighter one would usually prevail. I left out a bunch of other information, but I only wanted to drive the point home that we can't compare apples to oranges in these debates.
Let's say you're at a car club meeting and your buddies are trying to settle a dispute.
Buddy #1 approaches you and says: I just don't get it. My DSM makes the same WHP as Buddy #2's Civic, but I'm having trouble keeping up with him in my 3000 lb. car.
Buddy #2 says: That because DSM's suck. Hondas rock. VTEC rules your world, blah, blah, blah...
Buddy #1 runs his key over Buddy #2's fake "Type-R" badge and a fist fight ensues.
The point is that a lot of newcomers tend to lose site of the fact that there are quite a few variables which can affect the outcome of these common DSM vs. Honda spats. Some basic things to take into account are:
1. The drivers skill, or lack thereof.
2. The weight of each vehicle.
3. How broad or narrow the power and torque curves are for each motor.
4. Tire type, size and compound.
5: How the vehicles are geared and how well that gearing matches engine output.
Of course there are many other things that can be added to this list, but the point is made and we're way off topic. Speaking of which, did you ever figure out what was up with your car, Ned? When you do, make sure you let us know what fixed it.
"... and as far as a modified honda being faster then a modified 4g63N/A, someone obviously did not know what they where doing w/ the motor." - macderLol, I tend to agree. Just in case anyone was confused with what I'd said, let me clear things up a bit.
In my scenario, I stated that we had two FWD cars with similar dyno results, one being lighter than the other. If we used the same driver in both cars, the lighter one would usually prevail. I left out a bunch of other information, but I only wanted to drive the point home that we can't compare apples to oranges in these debates.
Let's say you're at a car club meeting and your buddies are trying to settle a dispute.
Buddy #1 approaches you and says: I just don't get it. My DSM makes the same WHP as Buddy #2's Civic, but I'm having trouble keeping up with him in my 3000 lb. car.
Buddy #2 says: That because DSM's suck. Hondas rock. VTEC rules your world, blah, blah, blah...
Buddy #1 runs his key over Buddy #2's fake "Type-R" badge and a fist fight ensues.
The point is that a lot of newcomers tend to lose site of the fact that there are quite a few variables which can affect the outcome of these common DSM vs. Honda spats. Some basic things to take into account are:
1. The drivers skill, or lack thereof.
2. The weight of each vehicle.
3. How broad or narrow the power and torque curves are for each motor.
4. Tire type, size and compound.
5: How the vehicles are geared and how well that gearing matches engine output.
Of course there are many other things that can be added to this list, but the point is made and we're way off topic. Speaking of which, did you ever figure out what was up with your car, Ned? When you do, make sure you let us know what fixed it.
ned032002
01-22-2005, 07:43 PM
I definetly will get back to you guys about what exactly fixs my car but right now it's kind of hard to get to my car because we got a hell of a lot of snow today so... Soon enough I'll get a chance to do something with the beast. Thanks for your help everybody and feel free to AIM me if ya want.
macder
01-22-2005, 09:19 PM
2000 Honda Civic EX - 2513lbs
1993 DSM FWD - 2712lbs
(Both w/ manual transmission)
Considering the honda motor produces less torque then my lug nuts require, the weight should not be an issue here.
1993 DSM FWD - 2712lbs
(Both w/ manual transmission)
Considering the honda motor produces less torque then my lug nuts require, the weight should not be an issue here.
ned032002
02-16-2005, 12:33 AM
Ok I'm driving the car again but the problem didn't just go away like I was hoping would happen. I just changed the Coil Pack 2 days ago and it ran fine until just tonight about an hour ago when the idle dropped and to 500 RPMs and the CEL came on, I know that the engine is missfiring but can't find the source of the problem. I don't know what else to do but to blow the damn thing up, and I wanted to know the actual name of that transistor you were referring to so I can look in my manuel to find it. Or can I have some better descriptions on how to find it.
Diplomat
02-16-2005, 03:57 AM
The power transistor unit is located beneath the coil pack, attached to the block.
http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/6d/51/d4_1_b.JPG
At least, I think it's attached to the block. I'd have to go look at mine again. In any case, it's under your coil and not hard to find. As you can tell by the picture, the plug is rather wide. The bolt that's toward the front of the car might be a little tough to get since you can't see it. Although, if you can get to all of the bolts on the coil, than this one shouldn't be much trouble for you.
http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/6d/51/d4_1_b.JPG
At least, I think it's attached to the block. I'd have to go look at mine again. In any case, it's under your coil and not hard to find. As you can tell by the picture, the plug is rather wide. The bolt that's toward the front of the car might be a little tough to get since you can't see it. Although, if you can get to all of the bolts on the coil, than this one shouldn't be much trouble for you.
ned032002
02-16-2005, 09:16 PM
I think I know where this is located because when I went to change the coil pack I unpluged something right beneath plug for the coil pack. I bet that the transistor is what I unplugged, don't worry I plugged it back in and besides I just changed the coil pack a couple of days ago and this problem has been around for a long time. I'll check those connections tomorrow and also is there any way I can check it with an ohm meter or volt meter to test it? Thanks.
ned032002
02-16-2005, 10:44 PM
I talked to my dad tonight and he was suggesting that possibly the fuel regulator could be malfunctioning because he said then when he heard it, it didn't sound like it was missfiring but just not getting enough fuel to make it run at the idle setting hence the low idle. Also that would explain the reason why the CEL would be trigered because the computer would be getting multiple signals saying that the engine is running lean but theres also not enough say pressure in the system to do the job. I don't know but if anybody thinks that this may be the case please let me know.
ned032002
03-09-2005, 01:05 PM
OK so I checked the power transistor for bad connections and there good so most likely that is not the source of the problem. But I raised my idle about a week ago and the problem seems to have "disappeared", maybe for now, but anyways now the car is having alot of idle serge? I don't know what the deal is but at least it's not doing that bucking shit. It feels almost like a bad fuel filter. But i changed that so thats obviously not the problem.
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