Debate: Are ghosts real or not?

In another thread a ghost was referred to. Some people believe, and others say it's a bunch of hooey.

I've experienced a "presence". I lived in an old house. In the house there was a spot near the cellar that would sometimes be very cold, even in summer; but not always. If you went down into the cellar it was normally cool. But sometimes it would be really cold, for no reason. And it was very difficult to go down the cellar stairs when it was cold.

But there's more. One time while studying (yes, college and I've never done hallucinogens) I thought I saw a shadow run by the door. The afterimage on my eyes was of a small girl in a lacy dress. A few weeks later was discussing with roommates, and another person in the house had seen the same thing. We were both amazed that our descriptions were so similar.

More: Once while sitting near the cellar I was, again, studying. It was warm. Then, the hair on the back of my neck went up, and it became very cold. I said, "Hello, Anna" then a couple minutes later the cold went away.

Why Anna? Some of the people in the house were history grad students, and they researched the house and the people that had lived in it. A little girl, about 5 years old named Anna had lived in the house in the 1800's, and died there.

But there's more. Their research showed that Anna liked to bake, and had died at about 5 years of age. The baking was, if I remember correctly, documented in a letter from Anna's parents to a relative. They even found a picture of three little girls, that were said to be the children that had lived in the house. The middle child was said to be Anna. She was wearing a lace dress.

The history majors framed the picture and put it on the mantle over the fireplace. A few days later, we came into the house and the picture had fallen off the shelf. A single crack ran from top to bottom through the middle of the glass - right through Anna's picture. There were no other cracks or damage of any kind to either frame, glass, or pictures.

What really clinched it for me though was this:
Once the oven door opened by itself. Ka-bam. I was in the other room and went to investigate. I go to see what's up, find it open. I tested the spring - normal. I open it a couple inches, it closes back up by itself. I'd have to pull it down to within a few degrees of horizontal to get it to fall horizontal. Humph. Back to the living room. Couple minutes later, it slammed open again. There was no one else in the house and the doors were locked. I went back near the cellar - yep, cold.

There are ghosts.

No ghosts IMO

I think you just haven't experienced one.

I have a redneck grandfather, born in a shack in the hills of Kentucky, who always used to claim to see ghosts every night outside the house. After dealing with someone like this my whole life, i dont believe there are ghosts.

I can see your position, you'd get the point of like, sure Grandpa, whatever. Did you ever go out there with him and "watch the ghosts" or did you just conclude he was full of it from the start?

I say yes but i dunno abouth the whole capser seeing kinda thing but i deff belive in some form of post life "living"

in my first house we know there were ghosts. we would hear snoring on the couch where my grandfather would normally fall asleep watching tv. the tv once did turn itself on. it was usually pretty cold only around the couch. also my mothers cat died there, i remember one night it felt like one of our cats were walking on my bed, but when i looked there was nothing there. so we also had a ghost cat, an her name was Boo. just thought i'd share that part.

I eouldn't say there are ghosts since I;ve never had any encounters and I wouldn;t say there aren't there because u can't make that assumption.

Of course ghosts aren't real, in an absolute sense anyway. You can convince yourself of anything. The mind is a very powerful tool capable of self deception to a very large degree.

Yes I think there are definitly ghosts, I've never had an experience myself, and I'm not sure if I would want too either. I'm an open minded person and believe most people wouldnt just make stuff up although I do think in some circumstances people just have too vivid an imaginiation or are too quick to call it a ghost.

Yes, there are ghosts! My wallet is full of them before pay day! :icon16:

I can't believe this. This is the 21st century! People, wake up!

Recommended site: http://www.csicop.org

Of course ghosts aren't real, in an absolute sense anyway. You can convince yourself of anything. The mind is a very powerful tool capable of self deception to a very large degree.

But what IS absolute if they're a spirit? Surely they're not material; perhaps another dimension which just touches ours. Physics is looking into wormholes, alternate universes, etc.

As far as self deception, some of the things that happened in that house occurred before we'd ever talked about a ghost or the history people did their research. I know what I personally experienced.

As far as self deception, some of the things that happened in that house occurred before we'd ever talked about a ghost or the history people did their research. I know what I personally experienced.

Some people are believers! :lol2: They are born this way. Do you think everyone who fell for the Nigeria Oil scam was talked about falling in stupid scams beforehand?

You were born believing in ghosts - that's your fate, mate!

This is a useless thread. Nobody will change his mind.

I challenge: prove ghosts exist. Prove it scientifically. Nobody ever did that. There are prizes for those who can. James Randi will pay a one-million-dollar prize. See http://www.randi.org/.

If you can convince James Randi, even I will start believing!
:lol:

Prove they DON't exist.

And if Mr. Randi is to make the decision whether or not he's convinced, he'll never pay out his money.

And Chacal; if some were born to believe, then some were born NOT to believe, and I take it you're one of them.

What would it take for you to believe?

Yes, there are ghosts! My wallet is full of them before pay day! :icon16:

I can't believe this. This is the 21st century! People, wake up!

Recommended site: http://www.csicop.org
Are you a religious man, chacal?

If so, this is indeed the 21st century, and you still believe in an invisible, never proven to exist spirit known as god?

If not, then I guess you are just a very absolute and worldly man. Kind of a pity, really.

Prove they DON't exist.

And if Mr. Randi is to make the decision whether or not he's convinced, he'll never pay out his money.

GOTCHA! Inversion of the onus! That's the usual argument! I don't have to prove ghosts don't exist! You must prove they exist.

It's almost impossible to prove something does NOT exist. You can't prove Santa Claus doesn't exist. Nobody can. You would have to be everywhere, everytime to prove that. The same goes for ghosts. I can't prove something doesn't exist and I don't have to, you prove to the world they exist.

About Mr. Randi: he proposes a scientific test. Scientific tests don't demande for decisions. Scientific tests give results.

I won't loose any more time with this. I have too much interisting stuff to do. Get a life, people!

you're correct, that's the usual argument. I believe in ghosts because I have experienced one.

BUT, I'll ask again; What would it take for you to believe? Could you open your mind to the POSSIBILITY that ghosts exist and if so, is there something that would convince you? You ask me to show you proof. Any proof that I could give you through this forum you could deny or find opposite evidence.

But if you were in a room, saw furniture move by itself and the temperature drop 10* in one second in the middle of the summer with no air conditioning, do you think you might have the openness of mind to see what you had seen and acknowledge it?

good point eversio.
Many still believe in a God, yet they have never seen, heard, smelt, touched or even tasted this God. So are you saying that even in the 21st century that these people are fools?

Sorry, I just don’t beleave.

Ill save this one to read until late tonight...

if its about wanting to see ghost or whatever that guy said, then what about when 4 people see one at once?

i've never seen one, but my mind is open, who knows they might be real.

I know I said I wouldn't post in this thread anymore, but I can't resist...
Originally Posted by eversio11
Are you a religious man, chacal?

If so, this is indeed the 21st century, and you still believe in an invisible, never proven to exist spirit known as god?

If not, then I guess you are just a very absolute and worldly man. Kind of a pity, really.

We were discussing ghosts, not religion. Don't mix things. If you believe God, how can you believe ghosts? Does the Bible say anything about souls who stay on Earth?

And don't waste your pity on me, OK?

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan
But if you were in a room, saw furniture move by itself and the temperature drop 10* in one second in the middle of the summer with no air conditioning, do you think you might have the openness of mind to see what you had seen and acknowledge it?

If I were in a room and saw furniture move by itself, I would think:
1 - that damn neighbour and his loud music again
2 - earthquake
3 - I drunk way too much
4 - someone is playing a trick on me...

Openness of mind, OK, but keep your common sense; it is the net wich will stop your brain going down the aperture...

When something strange occurs, one must search a reasonable explanation. Why do you think right away it is paranormal?

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan
In the house there was a spot near the cellar that would sometimes be very cold, even in summer; but not always. If you went down into the cellar it was normally cool. But sometimes it would be really cold, for no reason. And it was very difficult to go down the cellar stairs when it was cold.

Cellars are normally cold places, even in Summer. Have you ever tried to see if you had some kind of gas under the house? Some gas bubble who would expand and contract with the temperature variations?
Did you have a dog back then? Somebody wrote about a dog who didn't want to go in a cold cellar. That dog was probably smelling gas. Dogs feel smells a lot easier than people, their noses are better and they are closer to the groud.
Ever you ever thougt it was difficult to go down the cellar stairs because you were affraid? :uhoh:

Sorry for the long post. Just as I said, this thread won't lead anywhere, I won't convince you, you won't convince me. You want to believe in ghosts? Fine, that's your choice, you are a free man. Just don't start blaming ghosts for everything you don't understand!

I have enough trouvle dealing with bullshit from actual people.

I know I said I wouldn't post in this thread anymore, but I can't resist...

We were discussing ghosts, not religion. Don't mix things. If you believe God, how can you believe ghosts? Does the Bible say anything about souls who stay on Earth?

And don't waste your pity on me, OK?


Actually, Raz is right; it's much the same thing. You can choose to believe something for which there's no scientific proof - or not, as is your wont. Religion or ghosts, it's basically the same. I forget where, but the Bible does indeed have parts where the dead came back after dying and walked the earth. The most glaring example is Jesus himself, who returned if you will recall.


If I were in a room and saw furniture move by itself, I would think:
1 - that damn neighbour and his loud music again
2 - earthquake
3 - I drunk way too much
4 - someone is playing a trick on me...

Openness of mind, OK, but keep your common sense; it is the net wich will stop your brain going down the aperture...

When something strange occurs, one must search a reasonable explanation. Why do you think right away it is paranormal?


"Net wich will stop your brain?" Please explain.

But say you had eliminated those 4 premises in your open minded search for how the chairs moved. You didn't mention the temperature drop. What theory would you expound for that phenomenon?

And I didn't say that I thought right away it was paranormal. These events took place over several months. It was some time before I was convinced, and I was certainly skeptical until I had my own experiences.


Cellars are normally cold places, even in Summer. Have you ever tried to see if you had some kind of gas under the house? Some gas bubble who would expand and contract with the temperature variations?
Did you have a dog back then? Somebody wrote about a dog who didn't want to go in a cold cellar. That dog was probably smelling gas. Dogs feel smells a lot easier than people, their noses are better and they are closer to the groud.
Ever you ever thougt it was difficult to go down the cellar stairs because you were affraid? :uhoh:

Sorry for the long post. Just as I said, this thread won't lead anywhere, I won't convince you, you won't convince me. You want to believe in ghosts? Fine, that's your choice, you are a free man. Just don't start blaming ghosts for everything you don't understand!

No dog at that time. Yes, the cellar was normally cold as I stated. But just standing there and it gets colder, with no wind or anything else. The room beyond the door was a small and enclosed place, with no openings and containing nothing but air.

You bet we were all scared. But even with several people at the top of the stairs it took a great effort of will to go down the stairs. When it wasn't cold, it was easy. But when cold, your hair stood on end and it was difficult to pass. Now that I'm thinking of it, there was a hook and eye on the door, which we had to periodically refasten; there was no reason for us to go down those stairs - they led nowhere; so to have the hook unfastened over and over again.....

Sure, it's possible that some of these things were practical jokes, swamp gas or other things. But there were too many things that I witnessed personally to ignore.

If you're going to simply deny everything that's your prerogative. Maybe it's you that is scared of something you don't understand and can't scientifically explain.

Of course ghosts aren't real, in an absolute sense anyway. You can convince yourself of anything. The mind is a very powerful tool capable of self deception to a very large degree.

what if they move something and nobody was near it?

Personally i dont believe in ghosts, never seen one or had an encounter so i dont think they exist. But i guess its possible

one of my friends swears to god theres ghosts... He told me some crazy stories, that were backed up by one of his friends. About him being in the basement of some house and there was NOBODY near a couch on one side and it just started moving, sliding to the right. Everybody just watched it and when they realized there was nobody playing a trick on them, and nobody behind the couch everybody ran upstairs.

When he was at his friends house (which is near an old indian cemetary, dunno if that has anything to do with it) in the basement trying to sleep he said, this one time he felt like he was held down, he couldnt move at all and all he could hear in his ears was some terrible sound. He said it was the most horrible sound he's ever heard, like a 1000 people dying at one time or something. And he said the only way he got out of it is he remembered his mom telling him some prayer to say if he's ever in a bad situation (not for ghosts) and he said he just kept saying it over and over and whatever it was left him. But he said he couldnt move an inch, it was like he was parilyzed. He said he'll never sleep in that basement again.

And this isnt coming from a little kid that has scary dreams or some shit... this is a 26 year old black dude. So maybe there are ghosts

I told him i dont believe it, there was prolly somebody moving the couch and he was prolly dreaming when he was held down. He said he doesnt care if i believe him or not, but thats what happened.

I didnt read the thread yet.. i'm in a rush so i'll read it tomorow

I've heard many many stories.
But one that freaked me out the most was I got this freind who goes deep in forests and takes pictures of whatever. One time he went to the outskirts of our town, where nobody lives, and decided he was gonna camp there for the weekend...alone. Whe he got back, he told me that after taking a couple of pictures for that weekend, came back in town and went to develop the pictures. Now here's the freaky part, he said that some of the pictures were of him sleeping.

i too have heard soo many stories, by my mom aunties and more

Well, I beleive in them, having heard stories from my mum and aunties as well. One aunty of mine claims to have reguarly seen them. I've also felt presenses when I'm home alone, it's something like having someone standing over your shoulder, but there's nobody there.


That said, they are possibly a figment of an overactive imagination, but sometimes it just feels so real.

Originally Posted byRaz_Kaz
one that freaked me out the most was I got this freind who goes deep in forests and takes pictures of whatever. One time he went to the outskirts of our town, where nobody lives, and decided he was gonna camp there for the weekend...alone. Whe he got back, he told me that after taking a couple of pictures for that weekend, came back in town and went to develop the pictures. Now here's the freaky part, he said that some of the pictures were of him sleeping
1 - He took those pictures (camera self-timing) or asked someone to take them and he was scaring you
2 - Somebody went there while he was sleeing and took those pictures with his camera, knowing he woul freak out. It's a good pranck, I've already done it myself. But unfortunately the victims didn't believe it was a ghost... :mad:
Originally Posted byfredjacksonsan
"Net wich will stop your brain?" Please explain.
I'm not born english speaker, so sometimes I have a hard time trying to translate my ideas. What I meant with that was: If you open your mind without using common sense, you will open it too much and fall for every hoax, pranck, trick and fraud someone throws at you, like ghosts.
Originally Posted byfredjacksonsan
You didn't mention the temperature drop. What theory would you expound for that phenomenon?
I wasn't there, I haven't seen it. Why didn't you look for someone who could explain that at the time? A possible theory: fear. Not a real temperature drop, just fear. I was afraid sometimes and man, was that a chill! (All of these situations envolved REAL people, cars, etc., no ghost in sight, I assure you. :biggrin: )
Originally Posted byfredjacksonsan
Religion or ghosts, it's basically the same. I forget where, but the Bible does indeed have parts where the dead came back after dying and walked the earth. The most glaring example is Jesus himself, who returned if you will recall.
No they are NOT. Do you even know who Jesus was? Jesus was God's sun. Helloooooo? Are you saying Jesus was a ghost? :grinno:
I said it once and I say it again, if you believe in God you cannot believe in ghosts. Or voodoo, whitchcraft, tarot, etc, etc, also.
Originally Posted byfredjacksonsan
Maybe it's you that is scared of something you don't understand and can't scientifically explain.
1 - What do you know about science? Science is not closed! Science cannot explain everything today and it won't ever be able to do so.. Scientists are knowledge seekers. The search for knowledge is a neverending trip; every finding brings new questions.
2 - Most of the ghosts and ghostly experiences were already explained by science.
3 - I am not scared of what I don't undestand, I am scared of ignorance!

"I ain't afraid of no ghost!"

I'm not born english speaker, so sometimes I have a hard time trying to translate my ideas.

What I meant with that was: If you open your mind without using common sense, you will open it too much and fall for every hoax, pranck, trick and fraud someone throws at you, like ghosts.

No they are NOT. Do you even know who Jesus was? Jesus was God's sun. Helloooooo? Are you saying Jesus was a ghost?
I said it once and I say it again, if you believe in God you cannot believe in ghosts. Or voodoo, whitchcraft, tarot, etc, etc, also.

1 - What do you know about science? Science is not closed! Science cannot explain everything today and it won't ever be able to do so.. Scientists are knowledge seekers. The search for knowledge is a neverending trip; every finding brings new questions.
2 - Most of the ghosts and ghostly experiences were already explained by science.


Your English is excellent by the way, and thank you for clarifying. I realize that believing everything you hear is foolish.

I know who Jesus is.

The Bible has numerous references to "spirit" or "soul" which is what I think ghosts are.

Your point #1: You say that science cannot explain everything today and won't ever be able to do so. Then, in your point #2, you state that MOST of the ghostly experiences were explained by science.

So by your own argument, since science cannot explain everything and there are some ghostly experiences that are unexplained by science, there exist some ghostly experiences that haven't been explained by science. Could these actually be ghosts?

And also Chacal, you refer to fear as being "chilling". I understand this feeling, but it's not the same as a temperature drop in a room BEFORE you experience anything that would cause fear. You still haven't answered these 2 questions (so this is the last time I'll ask):

How would you explain a temperature drop?

Can you at least admit that ghosts MIGHT exist?

I want to believe but im also religious. My religion says all spirits go to either heaven or hell so im in a constant struggle. Proving ghosts are real might prove religion is wrong because the bible never mentions it.

Just something to think about.

I have three things to say.

I find it funny that some people who don't believe in a God believe that there are ghosts.

I believe in God.

I don't believe in ghosts.

i believe in god, and my mind is open to ghosts

for all i know, ghosts could be angels

and some ghosts could be demons

and who here has read the whole bible(or atleast more than 3/4ths of it)to where they can say, the bible says there aren't ghosts

me, i only have 5 books left, from my reading and knowledge, its possible.

I've heard many many stories.
But one that freaked me out the most was I got this freind who goes deep in forests and takes pictures of whatever. One time he went to the outskirts of our town, where nobody lives, and decided he was gonna camp there for the weekend...alone. Whe he got back, he told me that after taking a couple of pictures for that weekend, came back in town and went to develop the pictures. Now here's the freaky part, he said that some of the pictures were of him sleeping.

That happened to my gf's friend before. Thats wierd. Anyways I find it funny that many people laugh at the thought of ghosts yet go to church every sunday to worship a man who rose from the dead and turned water into wine. Personally I believe there is more to this world than what we know today. Science has always had its limitations, and besides there are many scientists who do study paranormal activities. They are not a bunch of quacks, but are people trying to put a scientific explanation behind things that are unexplained. You will never convince someone who doesnt believe in ghosts that they exists until they see it for themselves. It's similar to religion when they say "Theres no such thing as an athiest in a foxhole". Personally i can accept the fact that others don't believe in ghosts, I just can't understand how people can be so critical of those that do. Believing in ghosts doesn't automatically mean your a moron, or stupid, or even gullible, it just means you have an open mind about things that have not been proven yet.

i like your statement above, i totally agree

Believing in ghosts doesn't automatically mean your a moron, or stupid, or even gullible, it just means you have an open mind about things that have not been proven yet.

No it doesn't mean someone’s a moron, nor does it mean they come up short on the intelligence chart, but it does not mean that they have an open mind. All it means is that they've taken leaps in logic. An open mind means they'll listen to other hypotheses, not that they have to believe in it.

1 - No they are NOT. Do you even know who Jesus was? Jesus was God's sun. Helloooooo? Are you saying Jesus was a ghost? :grinno:
I said it once and I say it again, if you believe in God you cannot believe in ghosts. Or voodoo, whitchcraft, tarot, etc, etc, also.

So what would you call the reincarnation of Christ? And your saying that ghosts dont exist because they can't be explained scientifically, so I ask you this.
1. Have you seen your brain?
2.Have you heard your brain?
3.Have you tasted your brain?
4.Have you smelt your brain?
5.Have you touched your brain?

If you can't answer a simple yes to any of these then I conclude that you have a brain? Would that make me right?

All it means is that they've taken leaps in logic. An open mind means they'll listen to other hypotheses, not that they have to believe in it.

Just like with Freud, you dont have to believe his research, just understand it.

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan
The Bible has numerous references to "spirit" or "soul" which is what I think ghosts are.
The Bible says spirits or souls go to heaven or hell. It doesn't say they stay on Earth arrassing people.

Originally Posted byfredjacksonsan
So by your own argument, since science cannot explain everything and there are some ghostly experiences that are unexplained by science, there exist some ghostly experiences that haven't been explained by science. Could these actually be ghosts?

I said science cannot explain everything because every scientific finding brings new questions. Of course there are ghostly experiences that haven't been explained by science. Your experience, for example. But, as it wasn't examined by scientists, you can't assume it isn't possible to explain it.

Originally Posted byfredjacksonsan
How would you explain a temperature drop?
Can you at least admit that ghosts MIGHT exist?

I can't explain all, much less a phenomenon about which I have very little data. Besides, I am not an expert in thermodynamics. I have given you a link to someone who can help you, my signature has another. I assume you are in USA; I am in Europe (a lot of kilometers - or is it miles? :smile: - apart) and it is very difficult to me to jedge that situation. However, these people are nearer to you.
I won't admit ghosts existence unless it is scientifically proven.

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz
1. Have you seen your brain?
2.Have you heard your brain?
3.Have you tasted your brain?
4.Have you smelt your brain?
5.Have you touched your brain?

If you can't answer a simple yes to any of these then I conclude that you have a brain? Would that make me right?
1. No
2. No. Well, I think I heard it laughing when I was reading this...
3. No
4. No
5. No

You can conclude I have a brain because I am human and all humans have brains. You can conclude I have a brain because I could answer those questions. You can conclude I have a brain because I am writing this.

1. No
2. No. Well, I think I heard it laughing when I was reading this...
3. No
4. No
5. No

You can conclude I have a brain because I am human and all humans have brains. You can conclude I have a brain because I could answer those questions. You can conclude I have a brain because I am writing this.
I can conclude that you have a brani even though it can't be proven scientifically until you die and cut you up.I don't think your getting my opint, or your clearly evadnig the whole argument.

The Bible says spirits or souls go to heaven or hell. It doesn't say they stay on Earth arrassing people.



I'll answer with one word:

purgatory.

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz
I can conclude that you have a brani even though it can't be proven scientifically until you die and cut you up.I don't think your getting my opint, or your clearly evadnig the whole argument.
You don't have a point. Do you need to open a football to know, beyond reasonable doubt, what's inside it? Or an orange? Or an engine? Or a cell phone? Or a body?

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan
I'll answer with one word:

purgatory.
So you think purgatory in Earth and the poor souls who don't get right away a ticket to heaven or hell must wander around here? OK, nice. How can you explain then ghost form VICTIMS of crimes? Worse, ghosts from CHILDREN, some of them real young? Give me a break!

You know what? I'm out to disco. If I meet a ghost, I'll ask him / her / it (do ghosts have sex?) to go and talk to you a bit!

Boooooooo! :lol2:

You don't have a point. Do you need to open a football to know, beyond reasonable doubt, what's inside it? Or an orange? Or an engine? Or a cell phone? Or a body?
See that's different because thos things are man-made. So answer me this one then, do you beleieve in God?

look, its rather simple to prove ghosts (at least the way people think about them) dont exist. follow with me here:

1: matter can be niether created nor destroyed
2: therefore, the amount of matter on earth yesterday, must equal the amount of matter on earth 2000 years ago, and 2000 years from now.
3: ghosts must be made of matter in order to affect other things made of matter
4: the earths population has increased
5: if matter from dead people isnt ending up elsewhere, but instead residing in ghosts, what accounts for the increase in matter needed to explain the increase in population?

are you serious? matter has nothing to do with ghosts(depending on how you look at it)

and IF ghosts exist, we cant understand what its made of, because we can't study souls

c'mon now people

I think ghost on earth are here because theyre just waiting to see if their going to heaven or hell.

I'm a Christian and read the Bible and this is what I think about ghost.

1. when people die their soul goes to heaven or hell and DOES NOT wander around the earth

2. the Bible says satan and his demons have control of the earth at this time, this makes me believe that all "ghost" are nothing but demons, they take the form of men, women, or children because they can, they can read our minds and take the form of Uncle Buck who died a few years ago to trick us or whatever

3. science has showed us that "ghost" exist or something does, certain machines finding differences in heat, electric current in the air, energy waves, light waves, radio waves, ect. something has to be causing these changes

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz
See that's different because thos things are man-made. So answer me this one then, do you beleieve in God?

An orange is man made??? :confused: A body is man made??? I was thinking about the human body. Well, I think you can say the human body is man-made... :naughty: But not the orange, not the orange!!! :22yikes:
I said it before and I'll say it again: don't mix God and ghosts.

Originally Posted by Muscletang
1. when people die their soul goes to heaven or hell and DOES NOT wander around the earth

2. the Bible says satan and his demons have control of the earth at this time, this makes me believe that all "ghost" are nothing but demons, they take the form of men, women, or children because they can, they can read our minds and take the form of Uncle Buck who died a few years ago to trick us or whatever

3. science has showed us that "ghost" exist or something does, certain machines finding differences in heat, electric current in the air, energy waves, light waves, radio waves, ect. something has to be causing these changes

1. AMEN!
2. The Bible doesn't say we are controled by demons. Nobody can read your mind. You can't read anyone's mind.
3. :wtf:
Science NEVER showed us that "ghost" exist. In fact, every single "ghost" thorougly examined by scientific methods was proven either to have natural causes or to be a joke or a scam.
There are things science cannot explain - yet. Science is moving. Take epilepsy. For a long time, it was seen as "possession by the devil". Now we know it is a disease. Now take black holes. We know there are black holes, we don't know exactly what is a black hole - but we can't say "a black hole is a ghost"!

BTW: I haven't seen any ghost this night... I saw some girls who were OUT OF THIS WORLD :thumbsup: but they surely were no ghosts!!!

1. AMEN!
2. The Bible doesn't say we are controled by demons. Nobody can read your mind. You can't read anyone's mind.
3. :wtf:
Science NEVER showed us that "ghost" exist. In fact, every single "ghost" thorougly examined by scientific methods was proven either to have natural causes or to be a joke or a scam.
There are things science cannot explain - yet. Science is moving. Take epilepsy. For a long time, it was seen as "possession by the devil". Now we know it is a disease. Now take black holes. We know there are black holes, we don't know exactly what is a black hole - but we can't say "a black hole is a ghost"!

BTW: I haven't seen any ghost this night... I saw some girls who were OUT OF THIS WORLD :thumbsup: but they surely were no ghosts!!!

I never said we were controled by demons. The Bibles says satan and his demons have control of the earth. This is their domain, their kingdom, and we're living in it. Also, why couldn't satan or a demon read our mind?

Also I said science has shown us that something exist that goes beyond our knowledge. I talked about the machines picking up changes in heat, static electricity, ect when these "weird" things were going on in a room.

look, its rather simple to prove ghosts (at least the way people think about them) dont exist. follow with me here:

1: matter can be niether created nor destroyed
2: therefore, the amount of matter on earth yesterday, must equal the amount of matter on earth 2000 years ago, and 2000 years from now.
3: ghosts must be made of matter in order to affect other things made of matter
4: the earths population has increased
5: if matter from dead people isnt ending up elsewhere, but instead residing in ghosts, what accounts for the increase in matter needed to explain the increase in population?

If I were grading this 'logic' you'd have an F.

1- 2. Matter can be converted to energy and energy dissapaites. Hence, the amount of matter on the planet is not constant. (both coming and going)
3. Things to not have to have matter to affect their surroundings. Care to tell me how much gravitons weigh?
4. Immaterial
5. There does not have to be an increate in matter to have an increase in people. Perhaps the decrease in the number of cows would be your explanation.

Though I agree with you that there are no ghosts, I am amused at your steps at coming to that conclusion. :lol:

I never said we were controled by demons. The Bibles says satan and his demons have control of the earth. This is their domain, their kingdom, and we're living in it. Also, why couldn't satan or a demon read our mind?

Also I said science has shown us that something exist that goes beyond our knowledge. I talked about the machines picking up changes in heat, static electricity, ect when these "weird" things were going on in a room.
OK, maybe I should have used other words. To me, controlling the earth means controlling everithing on it, including us. The bible doesn't say that. Demons in the bible are symbols for the temptation. I don't think it is ever intended to be read in the way you read it. Demons are not among us, so they can't read your mind. Simple.

Science has shown us that something exist that goes beyond our knowledge, but that doesn't mean:
1. it will allways be beyond our knowledge
2. it is a ghost!
And don't take for granted science can't explain a temprature drop or static electricity changes. The explanations exist, starting with measuring instrument malfunction.

That's the error humans have made since our cave-dwelling ancestors roamed the earth. When they had no rational explanation, they invoked spirits and magical events. Any explanation would be better than chaos! If they could invoke spirits, it had a flavour of power over reality. I'd say it was cool! That's why so many of us still speak of ghosts.

If I were grading this 'logic' you'd have an F.

strange, i got a "b" in logic...

anyways, i know the argument was ridiculously weak. i knew it when i formulated it, i knew it when i typed it, and i knew it when i hit "submit"

thing is, i didnt care. posting this argument was mostly about humoring myself, making a point i knew noone would get.

it makes no sense, which happens to be about as much sense as anyone elses post on the topic, and the topic itself. this is not a philosophical question, and therefore shouldnt be here. so i thought id have fun.

sorry.

oh, and ghosts dont exist. deal with it.

OK so maybe the traditional term of "ghost" doesn't fit. What about the term "extradimensional being"? Science has spoken of the possibility of another dimension of being, wormholes, alternate universes, etc. Isn't it possible that someone in an alternate universe could be viewed as a "ghost" here? Or maybe time folds upon itself, and the "ghosts" seen are some sort of overlap in time, so we see a shadow or feel something from "the other side".


oh, and ghosts dont exist. deal with it.


How can you be so ignorant as to make a flat statement of denial?

I'm not talking specifically about ghosts now, but in general and about any subject. How do you back up your argument?? It's just like me saying, "Ghosts DO exist, deal with it" which I'm sure you wouldn't accept as truth just because I say so. You SURELY won't believe something I say without any evidence, why should your statement be accepted as true and correct by anyone?

look, its rather simple to prove ghosts (at least the way people think about them) dont exist. follow with me here:

1: matter can be niether created nor destroyed
2: therefore, the amount of matter on earth yesterday, must equal the amount of matter on earth 2000 years ago, and 2000 years from now.
3: ghosts must be made of matter in order to affect other things made of matter
4: the earths population has increased
5: if matter from dead people isnt ending up elsewhere, but instead residing in ghosts, what accounts for the increase in matter needed to explain the increase in population?

And this proves nothing.

I'm not talking specifically about ghosts now, but in general and about any subject. How do you back up your argument?? It's just like me saying, "Ghosts DO exist, deal with it" which I'm sure you wouldn't accept as truth just because I say so. You SURELY won't believe something I say without any evidence, why should your statement be accepted as true and correct by anyone?

One cannot prove a negative. It is incumbent upon those that believe that something exists to prove its existence and not the converse.

Though his approach might be grating and his conclusion may indeed be wrong (which it isn't), he's right that he doesn't have to prove anything. He and I can refute evidence of ghosts but not have to prove that they don't exist.

OK, maybe I should have used other words. To me, controlling the earth means controlling everithing on it, including us. The bible doesn't say that. Demons in the bible are symbols for the temptation. I don't think it is ever intended to be read in the way you read it. Demons are not among us, so they can't read your mind. Simple.

Job 1:7 and 2:2 These two verses talk about Satan talking to God about walking around the earth.

There is another verse I forget what but talks of Satan being a lion walking the earth waiting to devour the weak.

Mathew 8:28-34 These lines talk about Jesus coming upon a man possessed by demons. The demons ask Jesus "What have we to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come to hither to torment us before the time?" Jesus then cast the demons out to some pigs.

So it says it right there in the Bible that demons are in fact on the earth. Where else would they be, hell? No, Satan and his demons are on the earth and are in control of it until the finale battle where they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

The reason I believe "ghost" are demons is to throw people off. If a Christian believes you go to Heaven or Hell after you die and they see their uncle two weeks after he died, they'll start to wonder if their religion is right.
Remember, it says in the Bible Satan and his demons are trying to get as many people to join them as possible. A demon could read your mind and use that against you to turn you away from your beliefs.

look, its rather simple to prove ghosts (at least the way people think about them) dont exist. follow with me here:

1: matter can be niether created nor destroyed
2: therefore, the amount of matter on earth yesterday, must equal the amount of matter on earth 2000 years ago, and 2000 years from now.
3: ghosts must be made of matter in order to affect other things made of matter
4: the earths population has increased
5: if matter from dead people isnt ending up elsewhere, but instead residing in ghosts, what accounts for the increase in matter needed to explain the increase in population?

Actually you're really close but still a little wrong on this. Einstein used this argument to define the after lift. He said energy, not matter, is neither created nor destroyed and humans are nothing but forms of energy.

True, matter can be neither created nor destroyed but a ghost really wouldn't be matter I think, but energy, like Einstein theorized.

We're at different ends of a debate. The subject matter is whether something exists or not. This "something" does not have any empirical evidence of any sort to either prove or disprove the existence of said something. There are strong opinions on both sides, which fuel the debate.

Several persons involved in the debate have had experiences which would lead them to believe that this something exists. Others have secondhand stories about this something existing. There are those that deny outright the existence, and others who are neutral.

I believe that the proof of existence desired by those that disbelieve is not yet available; I also think that the proof required to disprove said existence is also currently unavailable.

This situation is similar to some during history; for example the explorers of the southern pacific returning to England with stories that there were women who walked around topless on the islands. Scandalous! Fabrication! Many did not believe the stories, which were later proven true. But people had seen and experienced something, told others who did not believe them; they were laughed at, believed, or just ignored, depending on the audience. Similar occurrences were involved in other things, anything from animals to cities to gunpowder and plants. Until the disbelievers saw with their own eyes, or the science was discovered independently, there was a huge population of people that had heard but not believed. Another example comes from early colonial America. There were stories that the natives had smoke coming from their mouths. Now smoking tobacco (and other substances) is commonplace. Even the telephone was (for a time) written off as a fabrication until demonstrated.

So Yogs, can you actually make a flat determination without empirical evidence that something does not exist, when in fact the tools for proving or disproving existence are not to our knowledge in existence?

And if so, why? What is the motivation behind the denial? Is it logic? Emotion? Faith? Or some other motivational reason?

i do know, for those of you who say you read the bible and it says your going straight to heaven should look a little closer. you'll be amazed about how many rumors there are about the bible.

i like this debate, its not so tense :)