Boxter S vs M3

Ohh dear. It appears someone is deleting my posts. How sad and pathetic.

For the record, I would like to know from Neutrino, Why nobody buys the ‘vette in the UK, despite a large number of importers. Where he decided to pluck a Nissan 350Z from, and why you feel the need to jump to conclusions about my driving capabilities and my experience. You have so far offended me on a personal level, for sharing a valid opinion on a car that I have 1st hand experience with. And yet, all you seem to do is quote journalists, and throw a few lap times around. You have also done a very good job of avoiding the points that I make...

(I have made a record of this post. I suggest that it is not deleted again, because I’ll not have my opinions victimised.)

now excuse me for being totally ignorant but my guess why the corvette doesn't sell here is maybe because of it's lack of history here?

people know the name but don't really know the car.

and since when were sales a god indication of whether or not a car is good or not?
is this a good time to remind everyone that the toyota corolla outsells most other cars in it's sector whilst not being the best?

The main reasons for lack of Corvette sales in Europe.

Eurocentricity...Meaning Europeans stick to euro made vehicles a lot.

Relative cost....A corvette is an expensive vehicle in the US but in Europe the cost becomes prohibitive for many europeans.

Horsepower vs. refinement....Europeans seem more than willing to spend many dollars for smaller and more refined cars that lack relative horsepower to American made models. America seems to use HP as a major measuring stick and overlook the simple interiors of many american makers.

But any way you measure performance..the corvette is a world respected supercar and if I were challenged to a race in either straight line or around the Nurb I would gladly take a Z06 in my corner to defend my honor over almost any car under $80,000 american.

Ohh dear. It appears someone is deleting my posts. How sad and pathetic.

For the record, I would like to know from Neutrino, Why nobody buys the ‘vette in the UK, despite a large number of importers. Where he decided to pluck a Nissan 350Z from, and why you feel the need to jump to conclusions about my driving capabilities and my experience. You have so far offended me on a personal level, for sharing a valid opinion on a car that I have 1st hand experience with. And yet, all you seem to do is quote journalists, and throw a few lap times around. You have also done a very good job of avoiding the points that I make...

(I have made a record of this post. I suggest that it is not deleted again, because I’ll not have my opinions victimised.)


You do realise that due the difference in hours I just woke up and logged in about 10 minutes ago, so quite literally I have no idea what you are talking about. Don't you think that if I would've decided to abuse my powers all your posts could haved been deleted including this one?

So far I have used the power to delete posts very sparingly only in the case of insults or intentions of starting "flame wars" and I have always posted the reason for deletion as a warning.

And if you still don't belive me feel free to contact the site administrators, they have the capability to check the logs and see If i have deleted your post or even if i had been online at that time. So there you have it, if you are convinced I have abused my powers you can prove your acusations and be rid of me. As simple as that.

And as far as the argument goes, you might take a look at your lack of supporters and realise the reason for that. The fact is you made certain claims and I brought verifiable facts to disprove them:

1. You claim the corvette cannot handle and I brought its laps times on both the Ring and the TG test track.

2. You dismissed it as a gross poluter, i posted goverment data not only showing that its not a bad poluting car but also that two of the new cars you claim to own are worse poluters. You did the fastest 180 in opinion I have seen and claimed that you don't care about polution.

first post criticising the corvette
The engine is another thing. Its so unefficient, that baby rabbits and small wild flowers die as soon as you start it up, and a small cloud of acid rain forms over the rear of the car.


post after I posted my EPA data
And whats more, I couldnt care less how efficient my cars are. I will sacrifice anything to get what i want, and that includes bunny rabbits and wild flowers.

:owned:



That was a silly accusation to make, finally_retired. There has not been one single deleted post in this thread :disappoin

.....aren't we still waiting to see pics of his actual cars?

Not selling well in a particular country doesn't mean anything. Is it right for Americans assume TVR's, Lotuses and Nobles all to be absolute crap because Corvettes out sell them by a mile in the States.

Different countries have different tastes in cars and different needs from cars. The fact that you see very few F150's in Paris doesn't change the fact that they're one hell of a truck.

and since when were sales a god indication of whether or not a car is good or not?


Not selling well in a particular country doesn't mean anything. Is it right for Americans assume TVR's, Lotuses and Nobles all to be absolute crap because Corvettes out sell them by a mile in the States.

Different countries have different tastes in cars and different needs from cars. The fact that you see very few F150's in Paris doesn't change the fact that they're one hell of a truck.


that is very true, especially since factors like different legislations and high import taxes often affect how a car is received.

dont mistake a cars handling capabilities with a drivers capabilities... the vette is a fantastice car, the only reason it doesnt sell in europe is because people over there have alot of pride (not a bad thing) and tend to stick to their own cars and the vette has no heritage over there (how many tvr's floatin around the states? doesnt mean theyre not good cause they obviously are...) . thats it thats all. and if i might add one more thing, just cause the vette doesnt drive itself or doesnt have more expensive materials doesnt mean its not as good of a car, some people actually enjoy the art of racing and i could care less about the interior for that price.

well...... to be honest, TVRs are not perfect cars.
the set-up of the suspension have always been a bit suspect (and hit and miss depending on the model), steering a little marshmallowey around the centre, brakes require supreme faith and reliability is still an issue.....

that said, it's more their way of doing things that is commendable.
up to about 5 years ago, nearly ALL of the work on the cars was done in-house. Every little lovely hand machined dial and switch was done by themselves AND they could still sell for around £40-45,000.
admittedly, this was probably the cause for some of the reliability issues (you can't be good at everything...).

the point with TVR was that the car was as good as 100% hand built/crafted but didn't cost anything like a Porsche.
which is why the interior of the corvette is always going to be in question.
if tvr can do it all in-house and still maintain 'cheap' prices for their cars, why can't everyone else do it too?

Actually, have you ever taken a look at TVR's profit margins and total sales numbers? They do just enough business to get by, and luckily with the new ownership they're readying the TS350C, Sagaris, and Tuscan for US sales.

That being said, the Vette is an excellent example of the same thing TVR does. Corvettes share little to nothing with the rest of the Chevrolet line (save for the engine and some switchgear) and are built in their own dedicated factory in Bowling Green. They're assembly line built cars, but there's also a lot more Vettes being built than ever before. Save for 1997 (the C5's introduction) each year of the C5 Vette has had over 30,000 cars sold.

That's the real catch. GM sells 30,000 Vettes a year and if they were to handbuild 30,000 Vettes a year, they'd cost a lot more than 45k.

When will TVR's be available in the States? I'd love to add a T350C or a Tamora to my collection...

TVR hasn't announced formally the year they'll be returning to the US, only that they will return shortly thanks to the new owner's much larger bankroll.

I believe another big part of the decision is waiting to see how well Morgan and Lotus do as they're in the same boat.

y'know, as dumb as it sounds, it never occured to me taht with hand built cars, the more you sell, the more people you need.....
i.e it'll cost more per car.......

damn.
i must have gotten out of the stupid side of the bed today.

i'm not entirely sure i like the direction the design went with the last two cars.....
the tamora was/is a great looking car from all angles but the closed top cars are a bit...... batman....

y'know, as dumb as it sounds, it never occured to me taht with hand built cars, the more you sell, the more people you need.....
i.e it'll cost more per car.......

damn.
i must have gotten out of the stupid side of the bed today.

haha... Indeed, the more you sell, the more workers you need, but the labour cost per vehicle doesnt rise unless you end up selling fewer cars per employee, i.e. hire too many people resulting in lower productivity.


i'm not entirely sure i like the direction the design went with the last two cars.....
the tamora was/is a great looking car from all angles but the closed top cars are a bit...... batman....
I absolutely agree with you there. OTT.

And what about the Sagaris?

In the words of Richard Hammond from Top Gear:"The world first car designed by an axe murderer."

[QUOTE=

That's the real catch. GM sells 30,000 Vettes a year and if they were to handbuild 30,000 Vettes a year, they'd cost a lot more than 45k.[/QUOTE]


This is exactly why the corvette wasn't very attractive to me. The ragtop vette costs the same as my car and they are pumped out in a massed produced fashion. They are simply everywhere and don't stand out from the crowd like some of the European offerings. Porsche sold less than 3,000 boxster S's in the states last year or was it world wide? Any matter, there's alot less of them cruising the streets.

No offence to anyone but I don't see why other people buying a particular car should preclude you from doing so. So what if there's lots of them? If you like a car you should get it.

Life's too short to be trying to please others all the time. You should be spending more time pleasing yourself.

There are plenty of ways to 'stand out', if you must do so, but maybe instead of spending thousands on a car you could spend 10 bucks on a book that will help you build self esteem.

It's very natural to want to stand out. I have no self esteem issues. But I enjoy it when I have something others' don't have. Makes you feel special.

I would never pass up a car I love because there are a lot of them around. But if it happens to be rare, then it's a bonus. Nothing wrong with that.

No offence to anyone but I don't see why other people buying a particular car should preclude you from doing so. So what if there's lots of them? If you like a car you should get it.

Life's too short to be trying to please others all the time. You should be spending more time pleasing yourself.

Maybe what pleases someone is to stand out in the crowd. That's kind of the point of a sports car anyways.

If that's what you like thwn that's fine. It's a (mostly) free world and I believe as long as you're not hurting anyone in the process you should do whatever makes you happy.

If a car makes you more attractive or whatever in some way then that's great. But I choose a car first and foremost for its abilty to entertain on the road. Anything else is a bonus to me, so I'd say that the purpose of a sports car is to engage the driver.

Having said that I won't be turning any chicks away if they find my car turns them on:)

I'm with GKR on this issue. We have to admit that we take other people's opinions into considerations when buying a car, its in out nature to do so as a social creature.


However that being said we really should not make that the primary reason for choosing a specific model. Its important for one should buy what car suits his desires and personality rather than just to impress.

I for one prefer an edgier car with a raw personality dominated by performance. This is why I like cars like the Noble M12 or Mosler Photon. Cars whose function overides form and who comunicate with you rather than isolate and pamper you. I feel they are more honest.


And as far as atracting girls, I wold rather avoid the ones that would go out with you just because you have an expensive car.

And as far as atracting girls, I wold rather avoid the ones that would go out with you just because you have an expensive car.
But they're the most fun! :iceslolan










then again how would i know.. i drive a Golf :lol:

M3 all the way boxer S are slow ass hell. My uncle had an S said it was the biggest waste ever now he has a clk-500 amg or something like that.

If a CLK 500 is a better car than a Boxster S i'll eat my hat.

Well im talking about the old boxer S not the 05 lol.

My bad just looked it up clk 55amg.

My opinion would still stand. The Boxster (both generations) is a honed, involving driving machine. The CLK 55 is a fat lxury coupe that's very adept at demolishing straights.

I know which one i'd rather drive.

what about a clk-amg? :D

Boxers is ok but not enough power.

kid, are you ever going to make an intelligent comment?
the CLK55 IS the AMG car.....

kid, are you ever going to make an intelligent comment?
the CLK55 IS the AMG car.....


/\ Jay see what I mean.

And smart one clk-amg look at ur facts be for you speak! go look at car drivers article on the 612 hp clk-amg strass version (streetversion)

ok.... if it looks like i'm picking on you it is beacuse i kinda am.
i'm not here often but everytime i do come here i see either pointless posts from you OR the continual posting of the same incorrect or simply stupid things.

here, you mentioned a cl amg car.
you were corrected by jay who told you it was the CLK55 (he omitted the AMG because i think he assumed you knew that bit).

were you previously talking about the 612 hp one you're talking about now?
yes? no?
if no, then what bearing does it have on my post and your own previous post?
i mean, Jay wasn't talkng the 612 hp (i'm assuming V12 car) and it isn't the CLK55 that he mentioned so what has it got to do with this?

Just so no one gets the wrong idea about me, I could care less how much of a car there is when I buy it. I'd buy a Corvette Z06 in a heartbeat because it is, in my opinion, the best sports car for that kind of money by far. I was simply presenting a different point of view.

ok.... if it looks like i'm picking on you it is beacuse i kinda am.
i'm not here often but everytime i do come here i see either pointless posts from you OR the continual posting of the same incorrect or simply stupid things.

here, you mentioned a cl amg car.
you were corrected by jay who told you it was the CLK55 (he omitted the AMG because i think he assumed you knew that bit).

were you previously talking about the 612 hp one you're talking about now?
yes? no?
if no, then what bearing does it have on my post and your own previous post?
i mean, Jay wasn't talkng the 612 hp (i'm assuming V12 car) and it isn't the CLK55 that he mentioned so what has it got to do with this?

No first I was talking about the clk-55 amg then the clk-amg formally known as the clk-dtm on the track.

Also I dont keep recklessly posting go look at other forums then you will see. And If im wrong im wrong feel free to correct but when u come off being snippy about then I frankly don't care. Forums are also about helping an not just about attacking people cause there wrong.

ahhhh.... the clk-dtm.
the £200,000 limited production car.
yes i can see how it fits into this comparison now.

anyway.
it's not 612 hp.
the 612 hp is the V12 engine (normally designated 65AMG)

Well back to the compario here ~

Bmw m3 (e46) ~ 343 hp 01 model 0-60 5.1
Porsche 217 hp 01 model 0-60 6.6

it says boxster S at the top

Uh, you don't really know what you are talking about do you Jcsaleen. The 01 boxster S has 250hp and the 03/04 models have 260hp. The new 05 S has 280hp. Those #'s you quoted are for a base boxster. An 03/04 boxster S does 0-60 in 5.3 sec and the 1/4 in 13.7 sec. Not super car performance for sure but definately not what I would call slow. Is the M3 faster? Certainly, but it definately doesn't destroy the boxster s in a straight line. Plus the top speed of a boxster S is 164mph and the M3 is limited to 155mph...not that anyone would be driving that fast anyway short of the autobahn. As far as standing out from the crowd goes, I think this is important but performance and overall balance certainly has just as much influence in my buying decision. Anyone that buys a sports car is trying to project some kind of image whether they are willing to admit it or not. I think my car fits my personality and needs more than a vette.

Uh, you don't really know what you are talking about do you Jcsaleen. The 01 boxster S has 250hp and the 03/04 models have 260hp. The new 05 S has 280hp. Those #'s you quoted are for a base boxster. An 03/04 boxster S does 0-60 in 5.3 sec and the 1/4 in 13.7 sec. Not super car performance for sure but definately not what I would call slow. Is the M3 faster? Certainly, but it definately doesn't destroy the boxster s in a straight line. Plus the top speed of a boxster S is 164mph and the M3 is limited to 155mph...not that anyone would be driving that fast anyway short of the autobahn. As far as standing out from the crowd goes, I think this is important but performance and overall balance certainly has just as much influence in my buying decision. Anyone that buys a sports car is trying to project some kind of image whether they are willing to admit it or not. I think my car fits my personality and needs more than a vette.

Word on that (I feel like a homie using the word...."word" :screwy: ). I think what should be taken into account the most is what you said at the end. At the end of the day, the person who buys the car will buy the one that fits their needs and wants the most. Whether its a Boxster S, M3, Vette, they are all special in to people in their own way. Cheers for you! :cheers:

BTW M3 and Boxster S are both real good cars. If either/or can't satisfy someone, then they either have a severe high speed issue, or worse.....a slow one.

Found it ~ www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Car.php?carnumber=47

shall i say it again?

it says Boxster S at the top.

Uh, you don't really know what you are talking about do you Jcsaleen. The 01 boxster S has 250hp and the 03/04 models have 260hp. The new 05 S has 280hp. Those #'s you quoted are for a base boxster. An 03/04 boxster S does 0-60 in 5.3 sec and the 1/4 in 13.7 sec. Not super car performance for sure but definately not what I would call slow. Is the M3 faster? Certainly, but it definately doesn't destroy the boxster s in a straight line. Plus the top speed of a boxster S is 164mph and the M3 is limited to 155mph...not that anyone would be driving that fast anyway short of the autobahn. As far as standing out from the crowd goes, I think this is important but performance and overall balance certainly has just as much influence in my buying decision. Anyone that buys a sports car is trying to project some kind of image whether they are willing to admit it or not. I think my car fits my personality and needs more than a vette.

Overall performance? Have you seen the moteg video? The M3 keeps up with the gallardo,nsx-r,ferrari 360 and a porsche Gt3. I'd hardly even put the boxer S in those cars catagories.

Well for the 10 ish (if I'm lucky) days of the year that I go to the track that may be a factor. But the fact that I won't be there to set lap times means it wouldn't count anyway.

I was going to say it seems like an American thing that people are obsessed with acceleration figures and "winning races" against other cars, but it seems to be that way here too.
If it makes you happy then that's fine, really.
The reason I was comparing these two cars was not because I want to go and race 17 year olds and get a hard on if i win, bit because they both offer something to the driver, and reward on different levels.
The Boxter S because of the level of tactility of the steering, brakes, throttle and gearshift, and inherent balance that it has, the sound the boxer 6 makes, the open top (which is great fun at night - driven an MX-5 a few times). and yes- it is quick, at least quick enough for a daily driver.
The M3 because of its engine, the way it looks (subjective), the way it goes when it's heading for the red line, the chassis balance, the fun factor of a tail happy but fairly benign car, the interior (my cars to date have had cloth seats and plastic interiors so some luxury will be sweet).

That's why I choose cars, not because I'm hung like an ant and need to beat people in street races or be able to flaunt high HP figures to make up for inadequecies.

When I drive the car hard there's no one around to show off to anyway, and during the day when there's others in the car or I'm in lots of traffic, it may as well be an ordinary car.

American thing that people are obsessed with acceleration figures and "winning races" against other cars

So true soo many people think accelration is all that matters. If any of you think im picking the bmw just because of the power your sadly mistaken the bmw m3 is an excellent track car. The whole suspention layout is fine tuned.


The reason I was comparing these two cars was not because I want to go and race 17 year olds and get a hard on if i win, bit because they both offer something to the driver, and reward on different levels.

Its very rewarding at the track. Its a great feeling just being out in the open.

I own a 1970 MGB GT. With the high-compression engine option (which my car does have) the little beast pushes 115bhp stock. Even with Weber carb and manifold, ANSA exhaust, shaved head, thinner head gasket, and a Kent cam (which gives me a good 150hp should the planets align just right) I'll gladly admit to the fact that my dear Layla gets walked in straight line duels with the average Caprice.

But not a person alive (save for most short sighted Japanophile import hobbists) would dare call the MGB a poor driver's car. I know a good driving experience, and the wonderful balance afforded by lightweight, well weighted steering, good grip (but not too much good grip) and just that right amount of power to get a car running around the track happily.

Now then, if I do have this understanding, why do I choose Corvette?

It's because, laughable as it was between 1974 to 1990, the Corvette is a world-class driver's machine. No, it's not world-class comfort. Neither is a Caterham, an Elise, a Morgan Aero 8, a Noble M12GTO, or even the most "driver oriented" versions of the M3 and Porsche 911 - M3 CSL and 911GT3, respectively. They're all cars that concentrate on deleting the fluff and producing amazing to drive cars that INVOLVE the driver.

Unbelievably, Corvette does the bloody same thing, just they never dove in on the fluff side after it proved so disastrous in the 70's and 80's. It took the all-mighty ZR-1 to remind Corvette of its roots in performance (roots that go back to offering independent rear suspension and four wheel disc brakes before FERRARI offered them) and competition. It took the C5 to build upon that revival and return Corvette to the world stage in competition and performance, and now with the C6, Corvette stands astride the sports car world as the benchmark for just how much bang for the buck a sports car can offer.

I've driven late model C5's. You sit low in the cockpit, shifter right at hand - a feeling more reminscient of vintage Lotuses - and gazing out over a brief but sculptured hood. The car feels light at the touch, just darting whichever way you point it. Tossing itself gleefully over crests and settling comfortably as the road dives. The tail steps out a hair as you turn in, but announces itself early with just a pinch of roll at the tail before it lets go. The gearchange is solid but not too heavy, though fifth is a little vague, and the car always seems begging for more.

It almost taunts you after corners - as if that little oversteer wiggle was to say "You only took that at 50? C'mon, I've got 55 in here if you got it."

You throw around that "typically American thought" idiocy as if it erases the Corvette from existence. Well, I'll tell you this - Mr. Typical Porsche Owner - I've driven Boxsters and they're NUMB. NUMB. NUMB. NUMB. They've had the heart and soul engineered right out of them so that Sally the Secretary can drive her cute little convertible to the hair-dresser. I don't care how "balanced" you or any other number of water-cooled POSERS claim the Boxster to be (and yes, as someone who conquered a round-nose 930 in the rain, I've earned the right to call water-cooled Porsche drivers posers) it's a numb, soul-less, bean-counter wet dream that's just no fun.

And I still contend whoever decided that the 911 should wear Boxster headlights should be dragged out in the street and shot, right after the guy who ditched air-cooled engines, the guy who made the Turbo AWD, and the guy who made slant-nose available on non-930's.

And I still contend whoever decided that the 911 should wear Boxster headlights should be dragged out in the street and shot, right after the guy who ditched air-cooled engines, the guy who made the Turbo AWD, and the guy who made slant-nose available on non-930's.

I think they were mostly Toyota executives. The Cayenne was their idea too.

Interesting post Layla's Keeper. You sound like you are talking from first hand experience but more importantly that you know what you're talking about.

I like cars that deliver excitement as well as driving prowess. This is why I'd take a TVR Tamora over a Boxter S.

However;

As much as I would really like your opinion to be true, I still see people who have proven ability in reviewing cars opinions to hold more water. I've said before, but Evo magazine (U.K.) has to be the best car magazine for real drivers out there. They like the Corvette for what it is, but certainly don't rate it as the tactile drivers machine you describe. I will of course drive it myself before I go judging your opinions, but I've heard people say how great certain cars are before even though everyone else knows it's a steaming pile of crap to drive.

Also, although water cooled, the 996 GT3 and 997 911's could hardly be called poor imitations. Those that drive them extensively say that are the best ever.

Perhaps a C5 / C6 woth some suspension mods, urathane bushes for the steering, a smaller diameter wheel, a short shift linkage, some race seats and proper set of guages would be a really good driver's car? From what I understand, this would not cost much to do, and could potentially transform the car.