2 14.598v amps in a stock civic?

I bought some amps for my car and haven't had time to put them in yet (it turned out to be lots harder than I thought it would be). Well I Am going over the specs now and they are a Punch 500x and Punch 700S. On both test sheets it shows the test being run at over 14 volts DC.

Now I have a 93 Civic EX and I was under the impression that the alternator put out about 12-13 volts. If I wire up both of these isn't it going to rediculously overdraw on my car? I just don't wanna install them and find out my car won't turn on anymore. Thanks!

The power that you are looking for lies not with the "volts" going to the amps, but rather what your alternators "amp" output is. If you have a stock alternator, and just install the two amps... you will most likely just fry your alternator.

Look at getting a GOOD alternator upgrade, which can very depending on what you want to do. Some people can find local shops to simply do what is called a "re-wind" ~ which is to take bigger wire and just rewrap the alternator to bump up output! Some other things are aftermarket built alternators like Ohio Generators, Stinger, and my favorite... Mean Green ( http://www.mean-green.com/ ) They are alot more "affordable" and still have good amperage to put out.

Dont pickup your alternator and think your done. Its most likely that your new alternator MIGHT be able to provide all the needed juice PLUS run your car... BUT, its still recommended that you purchase 1 farad worth of capacitor for every 1,000 watts your system is. People say to go by the RMS wattage, me personally always recommend to use PEAK wattage output this way you always have the power you need.

You also want to make sure you buy a capacitor thats actually going to help your car ~ make sure you do not buy the ones with the LED on the top of them. These capacitors have strangely high what is called an ESR value, you dont want that... ESR stand for Equivalent Series Resistance ~ the more resistance, the harder the power flow ~ sorta like your amps trying to suck grapes through a soda straw! Ok, maybe that was a TAD over exagerated but the point is, a high ESR will make your amps work harder.... which causes heat... which can cause to premature product damage.

Yeah, that totally sucks. Would other amps allow me to avoid this whole process or is it gonna be pretty much adding enough power for a nice stereo is gonna need some upgrade work?

I bought these cuz the sales guy told me that the xplods use more power and these would work fine on a stock amp. What a load.

Well I have 1 farad capacitor (Fosgate) I guess I could get another since I will be over 1k amps. I thought caps didn't do anything though?

Thanks for the warning, I will find a new alternator before I go drop these amps in (that just licks so much though). Also can I safely install my sub amp (700s) on the stock alternator just to get some kind of nice sound setup going or is that risky too? Thanks again!

Caps dont do anything? Then why would they sell em? :confused:

And to my best recolection (could be wrong) most of the RF amps are power hungry. Lookup your alternators stock AMPERAGE OUTPUT and then look on the RF amp for a fuse, if your stock alternator puts out 100 amps, and your RF amplifier needs 50 amps then your all set... but if your stock alternator puts out say 70 amps, and your RF amplifier needs 50 amps of current... you will end up frying your alternator as it will be trying to pull more current then it can produce. (remember the alternator still needs power to run the other accessories in your car and I believe they say thats 30-35 amps) so whatever your stock alternator puts out MINUS the 30-35 amps will give you a number of how many amps of power you have to "play" with!

I believe that Rockford uses unregulated power supplies, so the more power your alternator can put out, the more power that fosgate is going to suck up.

Sparq is coo.

Originally posted by starkfu

Sparq is coo.

Sparq----->http://forums.off-topic.net/images/smilies/bowdown.gif :finger: :devil: <------me

I have just seen a lot of posts that pretty much say that caps aren't worth anything but a little show (in the FAQ on this forum there is a link to a place that says taht caps are just to get chicks). Anyhow, I have no problem installing a cap or two, they aren't too expensive. Worst comes to worst they look nice.

I checked both amps, the 500x has a 50 amp fuse and the 700s does not come with a fuse (the package lists fuses for the 300s 400s and 500s series, this one I guess has one built in or something? I hope?) I would guess from the other fuse kits that the 700s has a fuse with 70 amps. Does this mean a combined drain of 120 amps for the two amps (that sounded funny)?

Also I couldn't find the rating on my cars alternator anywhere in the owners manual. Where should I be looking for it and is there even a chance that a stock alternator will put out that much juice?

And given the choice would you go for a re wire or a new alt? Mean green says they can use stock bolt holes and wiring harnesses, does this mean it's a quick and easy swap?

Sorry for so many questions but this whole thing got way more complex all of a sudden.

caps are like extra tiny batteries. they supply the amp power when bass are at its peak. the battery cannot discharge fast enough to supply the amp power and therefore you will recieve dimming lights. a cap will just supply power only when the amp needs it. caps won't do anything if it's not getting charged. thats where the battery and the alternator comes in. the alternator will charge the cap faster with more power also. don't rely on caps when it comes to stop the blinking headlights. its just a bandage to help, but will not stop the blinking alone.

I think I get it, so when the sub is actually hitting the cap kicks in the juice to run it, then between beats or whatever the cap recharges?

So I might as well get 2 since I will have 2 amps.

Originally posted by Devedander
I think I get it, so when the sub is actually hitting the cap kicks in the juice to run it, then between beats or whatever the cap recharges?



u got it:) :cool:

Well that almost makes me happy, now I am smarter, unfortunately it means I am now smart enough to see my shortcommings.

Another shortcomming I was just thinking of was this, since my HU only has one set of RCA cables (4 total, front and back) and each amp wants some RCAs plugged in how does one do that? Just some RCA splitter cable? Or is there a better way?

This whole two amp thing is really getting difficult :bloated:

Originally posted by Devedander


Another shortcomming I was just thinking of was this, since my HU only has one set of RCA cables (4 total, front and back) and each amp wants some RCAs plugged in how does one do that? Just some RCA splitter cable? Or is there a better way?



you can either plug them into the amp's output plugs or get a splitter like you said. i only have enough preouts for one amp so i bought a splitter. they work fine and i see no power lost or anything like that. it should work for you too.:)

Thanks, I actually just popped the ends off my amps and peeked in at the connections and they actually put a passthrough on the 4 channel so I hope that will fix this whole lack of plugs problem.

Hell, might as well keep the questions rolling :) Since I will be getting more power to run this while the car is going what happens when the car is off and I listen to the radio or CD?

Also do you mind if I ask, GSteg, how much did you have to do to your car to get your stereo running? I mean like new amps and caps and all that stuff?

Originally posted by Devedander


Also do you mind if I ask, GSteg, how much did you have to do to your car to get your stereo running? I mean like new amps and caps and all that stuff?

well...i only have one sub. i bought it at bestbuy for $30.:bloated: its a 10" lightning audio. for the amp, i bought a lightning audio B150.2 for $79. the headunit i have is a pioneer DEH-1300 that i bought at good guys for $129. wirings were about $20 bucks and that includes the RCA splitter. i got some Pioneer speakers that my friend let me borrowed. i don't have a cap because my amp doesn't draw that much power. as you can see..its not much of a system but its good enough for me. i'm on a tight budget. i'm only a freshmen in highschool. i get money to buy my system by hooking up audio system for my friends. i install, he pays. oh yea..my stuff are installed in my mom's van.

Hmmm, that sounds so much easier. I am beginning to think that because my speakers are mostly RMS ~50 watts and my HU puts out 50x4 watts I might not need that 4 channel amp after all. Seems a shame not to have it though since, well, since I dunno, just seems a shame. Thanks for the info though.

Still wondering what all happens when you listen to the system with the car off though.

Originally posted by Devedander
Hmmm, that sounds so much easier. I am beginning to think that because my speakers are mostly RMS ~50 watts and my HU puts out 50x4 watts I might not need that 4 channel amp after all. Seems a shame not to have it though since, well, since I dunno, just seems a shame. Thanks for the info though.

Still wondering what all happens when you listen to the system with the car off though.

your headunit will not put out a true 50x4. chances are your headunit will put out about 20watts RMSx4. no headunit will come close to 50x4 rms. but you shouldn't have a problem running the speakers though.

when you're listening to the system while the car is off, you will drain your battery FAST. not a good idea unless you have a second battery with an upgrade alternator. but a 15 minute track shouldn't be a problem. just as long as you're not running it TOO long while the car is off.:)

My what a predicament. I don't like the idea of 20x4 watts of power running my stereo. The speakers can take up to 160 watts or so :( But new alt + install new amp + another cap + God knows what other problems will pop up... maybe I will just buy a walkman and forget the whole car audio thing :D

Since I don't see a lot of space for another batter in my car I guess it's just a matter of no radio if the car isn't running, which will suck if you are just sitting there waiting for someone or something. If you turn down the sub amp manually does it draw less power? I just hate the idea of a dead battery.

Originally posted by Devedander
My what a predicament. I don't like the idea of 20x4 watts of power running my stereo. The speakers can take up to 160 watts or so :( But new alt + install new amp + another cap + God knows what other problems will pop up... maybe I will just buy a walkman and forget the whole car audio thing :D

Since I don't see a lot of space for another batter in my car I guess it's just a matter of no radio if the car isn't running, which will suck if you are just sitting there waiting for someone or something. If you turn down the sub amp manually does it draw less power? I just hate the idea of a dead battery.

yea...car audio can be expensive once everything is racked up. you don't have to run the speakers off an amp. your headunit will do just fine. what kind of headunit do you have?

It's a pioneer DEH P6400, the one with the big face and no mp3 ability (I hopefully will upgrade to MP3 soon, which means wiring in anothe HU, the fun never ends :) ) and it is supposedly 50x4 watts MOSFET (I still don't know what MOSFET means). So far it powers my speakers ok. In back I have Boston RX67 and in front I have some kind of eclipse speakers which I forgot to figure out eactly what were last time I pulled them. They play pretty loud but they do distort when they get loud, I figured an amp would fix that distortion at high levels.

The subs I will be driving are a pair of 12 inch DEH2 RF subs in a sealed box. They are 400watt RMS and 800 watt max. So actually I don't have enough juice to really run them right, oh well I don't think I will need to have them cranked up full juice, I am maily doing this becuase I like to have my music clear and loud enough to hear while driving down the freeway, I am really picky about road noise (hence a wad more cash which went to dynamat, which I also have to figure out how best to utilize). Also I was told that a seperate amp will make things sound better at low levels too since I tend to listen to talk shows and music pretty quite while I am just rolling around town.

yea..an amp will surely run your speakers to its full potential.

by the way...MOSFET means Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor. they have faster swithcing speeds than bopolar transistors and generate less heat. they are used in some headunits and amps to give better response and higher efficiency.

remember too that an amplifier of the same rating will always do a better job then a head unit.

for example, an amp that provides 40 x 4 will out perform a head unit of 40 x 4 or even 50 x 4, this is because the amp is dedicated to this one task, power and stability. A head unit has so much more to worry about. Also most head units use "stepper" circuits to produce that extra output. reason-an ideal situation gives a head unit 13.8 volts on average. the old head units would take this voltage and run it through a basic IC amp circuit, usually an op amp, and produce a 25 x 4 or 30 x 4, granted this is at 4 ohms ONLY!!!

these new head units throw in a circuit before that that jumps the 13.8 to an average of 17 to 18 volts, creating that higher output. also only at 4 ohms.

An amplifier will produce a strong 40 x 4 at 12 volts (varies from amp to amp) any way my point being that your 50 x 4 from the head unit will in no way compare to the output of your dedicated amplifier.

My advice is to hook it all up. Buy a 1 farad capacitor, make sure you use at least 4 gauge wire for all power and ground wiring, upgrade the battery ground. Now depending on what kind of car this is will dictate whether the alternator will hold up or not. Keep in mind that your amps are not drawing the max rating all the time, of course this is obvious or the fuse would blow all the time, fuse ratings are double the average current draw. So on average you will be using 45-50 amps of power. So theorhetically you will need at least a 100 amp or so alternator.

Another not so technical way is to power it on, play it at the loudest volume that you feel is still sounding good, and watch the car idle with every electricall accessory on, heat full fan lights, and let the car idle, if the rpm's fluctuate or the lights dim NOTICABLY, then you have a power issue and should look into alternator and battery upgrades.

good luck.

Originally posted by starkfu
remember too that an amplifier of the same rating will always do a better job then a head unit.

for example, an amp that provides 40 x 4 will out perform a head unit of 40 x 4 or even 50 x 4, this is because the amp is dedicated to this one task, power and stability. A head unit has so much more to worry about. Also most head units use "stepper" circuits to produce that extra output. reason-an ideal situation gives a head unit 13.8 volts on average. the old head units would take this voltage and run it through a basic IC amp circuit, usually an op amp, and produce a 25 x 4 or 30 x 4, granted this is at 4 ohms ONLY!!!

these new head units throw in a circuit before that that jumps the 13.8 to an average of 17 to 18 volts, creating that higher output. also only at 4 ohms.

An amplifier will produce a strong 40 x 4 at 12 volts (varies from amp to amp) any way my point being that your 50 x 4 from the head unit will in no way compare to the output of your dedicated amplifier.


yup. an external amp will always perform better than an internal. some of the world's best headunit doesn't have an internal amp because simply they generate lots of heat. in a sound quality headunit, heat can be a big factor in how the headunit performs.

Originally posted by Devedander
...a place that says taht caps are just to get chicks). Uhhhh, sorry I have NEVER have a chick tell me they dig me cause I have a capacitor! LOL... most girls dont even know what the hell it is! :bloated:

And given the choice would you go for a re wire or a new alt? Mean green says they can use stock bolt holes and wiring harnesses, does this mean it's a quick and easy swap?
Yes, Mean Green is 9,999,999 times outta 10,000,000 going to be a direct bolt up into your car ~ yank the old one out and put this one in. Where as some other brands of alternators might require custom brackets ON TOP of their $$$$ pricey cost.

Me personally? Going w/ aftermarket alternator because new is still always going to be better then recycled :flipa:

Damn you all beat me to the punch today... I had a busy day shipping and tracking and packing and shipping and oh the fun just dont stop. And of course now that I get back no one has any questions :finger:

Originally posted by sparq
Damn you all beat me to the punch today... I had a busy day shipping and tracking and packing and shipping and oh the fun just dont stop. And of course now that I get back no one has any questions :finger:

no wonder i didn't see you...u are usually the one answers all the questions;)

OK so between Sparq and Starkfu I get conflicting sugestions, Sparq says don't hook it up I will fry my amp (which would leave me buying the mean green anyway (by the way what's a mean grean go for? Stinger and Ohio both run about $500 for the whole package, but mean I couldn't find mean green prices) but without a car for probably quite some time) and starkfu says go for it and see how it works. My main concern, am I gonna fry shit? I don't mind installing it all, finding I need a new amp and unplugging one amp until I can get the new alt, but i really can't be without a car for a week or two. So which way should I go here?

I am for sure gonna toss in another cap (two amps, two caps, seems fair enough and they aren't too expensive) and if the fuses on the amps really are twice their average load then maybe I will be ok for now (or maybe with one of those wire jobs).

I forget exacltly where it is (I spent 4 hours going over the FAQ and the links so it's all a blur) but it definitely did say a main purpose was to get chicks. By the way the cap is just in it's blister wrap on my couch and already two girls got naked cuz of it and another one said she was all horny and couldn't figure out why, must be that thing on my couch.

j/k

I wish... I would have so many caps.

Oh and as for what kind of alt I already have the car is a 93 civic EX. I can't find the alternator output rating anywhere, if you could point me to where to look or attach a voltometer or something I would greatly appreciate it!

I had a 94 EX that I ran a punch 400 and punch 250 off of the stock alternator for two years without a problem, i had one cap and a stinger 1200 battery.

In my 2k2 civic i am running an alpine MRD-F752 T-Class 5 channel which in itself is fused at 80 amps, I have had no problems what so ever. Just one capacitor and still stock battery in this car.

Hmm, that makes it really tempting but my setup looks like it will be running double the amperage of yours (since mine is 700 and 500), do you recall what the fuses were rated on those amps?

the older models of rockford 400x2 and 250 dsm were the biggest of their time in that model line, equivelent to todays 1100 and 800a4.

Really? So they were probably running about the same draw as mine will be put together? That makes it soooo tempting! I just love decisions that are right up on the line :)