shortys vs full length

yeah ha ha i know how the title sounds before u even make the comment but on a more serious note im debating wheter to get full length headers or just the shorties... i know shorties will be easier to install and get better clearence but thats not what im worried about. ive heard full length headers can make u loose some low end torque which is what my 305 tbi really depends on to get goin, is there any truth to this?? also i heard that shorties actually help low end torque is this one fact or fiction?? and one more thing on the clearence issue how bad is it gonna be on ground clearence im stock height so its not sitting any lower than normal but at my work we have about four unevoidable speed bumps that i go over at least three or four times a day and i dont wanna go rippin off my y pipe or bending up my headers will they be a problem if i go full length??

oh yeah and my operating range even after my intake and came probably wont go above about 5 grand and the headers im looking at are headman and hooker brand if that helps

no opinions??? id really appreciate some advice on this one cause headers are commin real soon on my car and id kinda like to know what u guys think

Well, the results I have seen are that for a stock motor, shorties do make a little more power than the factory log manifolds. ( Below 5000 rpm as you have stated, and more low end torque) Generally, the are/can be 50 state legal replacements (if that is a concern). If you are looking for all out power, full length, TUNED ( equal length) seem to time and time again make more power. I know of no full length header for third or fourth gen f-bodys that are street legal. I could be mistaken though. Full lenghts MAY cause ground clearance problems.
Now that I have said all this, you have to keep in mind that not all engines will respond identically to the same mods. If I get 40 HP from brand X headers, that does not mean you will. The best advice I can give is decide which type you want, keeping in mind the pros and cons of each, then make nay other future changes with the same goals in mind. Checking past issues of Car Craft, Hod Rod and Chevy HP mags will give you some more ideas about what different headers will do. I think Car Craft did a fairly good series on headres for third gens last year. Good luck, and hope this helps!

yeah ha ha i know how the title sounds before u even make the comment but on a more serious note im debating wheter to get full length headers or just the shorties... i know shorties will be easier to install and get better clearence but thats not what im worried about. ive heard full length headers can make u loose some low end torque which is what my 305 tbi really depends on to get goin, is there any truth to this?? also i heard that shorties actually help low end torque is this one fact or fiction?? and one more thing on the clearence issue how bad is it gonna be on ground clearence im stock height so its not sitting any lower than normal but at my work we have about four unevoidable speed bumps that i go over at least three or four times a day and i dont wanna go rippin off my y pipe or bending up my headers will they be a problem if i go full length??
Well whoever told you all of this is completely backwards. Exhaust acts a lot like intake when it comes to design. The larger runners of the TPI act like long tube headers, they improve torque. However with exhaust there isn't much of a decline in top end power like there is in induction. Long tubes are better in every way except for very slight differences in top end where the shorties might be in little more in their element. This does not matter however since the long tubes beat out the shories throughout most of the RPM range. Dont get me wrong though, shorties do have their place. You just have to decide for yourself.

ok well thanks i was thinkin gettin full length headers would hurt my torque down low and improve top end horse power and as i said i need my low end torque to get me movin, but no im not really badly worried about being 50 state legal as long as i can put my o2 sensor in i can always weld the air tube in when i get my 3 inch y pipe fabbed up

I didn't even know my car had an o2 sensor, where the hell is it?

if its stock i think its right there in the exaust manifold

I don't want piss anyone off, but Shorties are a waste of money, trust me. Go with the full length.

I don't want piss anyone off, but Shorties are a waste of money, trust me. Go with the full length.

I agree , not only is the supposed hp 'gains' a bunch of bs , but they have all kinds of tweaking on the exhaust to make a nice tight looking fit. I tried to go with some flotech shorties but they looked stupid as shiat plus interfered with the engines cross member at the collector connection point . If you have full length headers , you can throw those right on , if the run down and out all the way like true full length headers , you can just arc weld a cat or muffler right on and straight pipe it out from there. Well , straight as can be anyways.

I have shorty style type right now but they run a rear exit.and bolted onto the 'OEM' upgraded to 3" y-pipe which has the same exact bend design as the original oem y-pipe. So this was the easiest way for me and least pocket breaking.

well then it looks like they will be the full length but do those have an o2 sensor bung and air injection option on them

I don't want piss anyone off, but Shorties are a waste of money, trust me. Go with the full length.

LOL, I hate my Edelbrock TES too - are you still running your shorties?

I've been dying for a nice, long, and straight pair of TPiS or AS&M 1 3/4" long tubes...

So ya, typically a narrower and bendy manifold will yield more low-end torque, and a wider and straighter tube yields more high-end HP. Might be an issue with a totally stock car, but for drag applications where you're launching the car @ 3000 RPM or way more, and running shorter gears where the revs still sit pretty high after a shit... who cares about the low end.

its all about how much money you want to spend.

so now we have conflicting stories so ur saying the bending structure of the shorties will yeild more low end torque, cause if i go full length and loose torque ill be really upset i need that torque to get me goin more than i need my hp to keep me goin i never go to the strip the most action my cars gonna see race wise is light to light so does that change the circumstances or do u guys still feel they r a waste of money, cause im thinking the shorties would still flow much better than those stock manifolds, and i did think i read that shorties yeild better torque and are usually better for street cars

LONG TUBE = MORE TORQUE. Shorties will be better then stock, by far!

Your engine (we're talking any regular street engine here) requires a certain amount of back pressure throughout the exhaust system, and this back pressure helps produce/sustain torque.

Although a free flowing exhaust system can help produce more HP by allowing the exhaust emissions to escape faster (letting your engine breath better, along with a free flow intake...), if there’s not sufficient back pressure throughout the system you will end up losing torque. I mean lets face it does your engine really have trouble spitting out exhaust at 2500 RPM? No, but at 5000 RPM things are a bit tight. Its like a balancing act - you want to open up the exhaust but at the same time you need to keep a bit of back pressure. This happy medium is very dependant on the type of car/engine obviously. In a high revving car like a Honda where all the power is high end, the idea is to open up the exhaust system as much as possible - who cares about the low end because there really is no low end to begin with (plus you don't need it on a tiny light car). A big 5.9L Dodge Ram on the other hand is all about torque, and it needs that torque to get the beast going. So these guys who drop full 3" cat backs in their brand new stock trucks often wonder why the thing then seems slower off the line... its because there’s not enough back pressure left in the system. A 2.5" exhaust would actually be a better setup in these situations.

Another thing to consider about exhaust velocity is the actual temperature of the emissions. The hotter the exhaust gas is, the faster it will travel. So although a set of big 1 3/4" headers and a 3" cat back will open up a nice amount of room for more exhaust gas to travel, if you're not taking advantage of that fact by BURNING more gas/making more exhaust (ie. bigger cam with longer exhaust duration/higher lift, better intake/ported heads with larger injectors/fuel pressure regulator, etc...) then the temperature of the emissions will actually drop - exhaust going through a 1 3/8" header is going to stay hotter than that same amount going through a 1 3/4" pipe (unless you introduce more exhaust, which is really the whole point of changing the stock manifolds). This is why guys ceramic coat their headers in order to trap as much heat inside and keep the exhaust moving fast. So in other words a shorty header might actually be a good fit for a stock engine because you free up a bit of the constriction yet maintain a nice degree of back preasure. A long tube might in fact be overkill if the exhaust slows down and if there is not enough back pressure - so what do you do? You fucking beef her up by burning more air and fuel to fill the gap (and make some REAL HP!).

So you've got a 305cid F-Body (right?), well what’s been done to the car? Is it totally stock, 200,000 miles, what… If there’s nothing done to the car and you plan on doing absolutely nothing to it in the future then yes you might want to consider a shorty. I can’t remember what company it was that claimed its mid-length headers provided the most HP gains of any aftermarket manifold on a completely stock LT1 F-Body, but I believe it because on a bone stock LT1 a long tube would probably be too much (too much in the sense its just not necessary – not enough going on to be utilized). My girlfriend’s cousin worked for Magna in one of their tuner car divisions back in the mid 90’s and used to race their Firebird Formula in a MoSport circuit (against Porsche’s, BMW’s, Stang’s etc…). They had certain restrictions which kept the cars close to stock (no head porting for ex.) so this guy and his team figured out ways to get the absolute most HP out of the engine within near-stock requirements. One thing I remember him telling me about exhaust was that for a bone stock LT1 the so called crappy factory manifolds are in fact quite sufficient for what they do – he said you will actually see more HP gains with a good Y-pipe rather than a set of long tube headers. But FORGET all this shit. My advice to you, much like the other silver Z28 guy said, would be go for the long tubes. Listen to us both – shorty’s suck! As time goes on you will regret short tubes more and more, while long tubes you will only appreciate more over time as you tweak your setup.

shorties are a big waste of money with F-bodies. Go full length LONG TUBES. You'll get much better flow, better dyno #'s, pull harder, the works!

There is a little more to exhaust and how it works then what DVS LT1 stated. There are things like plenum volume (collector volume, x pipes, and h-pipes) to think about too, but he got it pretty much hit the nail right on the head. One doesn't really want back pressure though just velocity. Either choice with shorties or long tubes it will be a vast improvement over the stock iron manifolds.

I do have a pretty much stock car right now and yes 305 tbi, but i do plan to put an intake and bigger throttle body on it but nothing dramtic one from a 350 or one of the holley 670 tbis, and mabey put a cam on if i ever get the money for the install, so what would u recomend as i said the engine has about 70000 miles on it and wont be making any pulls on the dyno or down the track, just stop light to stop light so what do u think i should do????

oh yeah and i do have a 3 inch cat back and flowmaster and will have a 3 inch y pipe

SLP's.
Do a lot of research, some of the long tubes make it impossible to change plugs without removing the headers. Even SLP's make it a challenge.