Diminishing returns?

Hi Folks,
This is not a slam on imports, domestics, or any other brand or style of car.

When I frequent alot of domestic forums on the internet, particularly the network54 "335" or "385" forums (ford cleveland and big block families), I see alot of big horse motors (500+ hp pump gas small blocks!), real time slips (10 sec and lower), and fast low-budget builds (12-sec for $3K)

Is it really possible to get the same performance from an import? I hear alot about turbo kits, porting, cams, etc. but you just don't seem to get the "bang for the buck." I also hear people spouting about 9-sec supras and etc, but I really doubt you could get one of those cars for less than $50k. Why do people turbo a 1.6 and get 200 hp when they could turbo a v-8 and get 500?

I even heard a quote from Ford about why they decided to convert one of their new Focus compacts to rear wheel drive and put in a 5.0 cammer motor (400 hp) "It is just a question of when the tuners will get sick of chasing diminishing returns from small powerplants."

Really, small displacement motors, overhead cams, and forced induction should be the wave of the future but I don't think it can be denied that the basic pushrod v-8 is still a very threatening powerplant. You also can't argue with the aftermarket support for the v-8.

So, let me know what you think!

classic flaming thread beingiing about improts v.s. domestics..

i dont know about the rest of you but i love the rush you get when the turbo spools up and snaps your neck into your seat and if a car that is tuned enough the g-force is so great that it gives you trouble to pull your self up (my boys 450 300ztt)

as to your argument, yea v-8 are a good bang for the buck, buy a crappy shell, and then buy a cratemotor that has 400+hp out the box and boom 11 sec car. as to your argument about taking a 1.6l and turboing it, the imports weight less and outhandle some domestics, so when you add the power not only do you get a good straight line car bout a car that handles well to. and its nice to know that you can run with the big boys with half the displacement and cylenders.

I do it because it's fun to pull up next to a guy with a v-8 who thinks he's gonna rip me a new one, then I blow his doors off :grinyes:. The 400+ horsepower numbers don't have to be as great in a smaller lighter car (as long as it's not FWD) to see good performance. 4-bangers also handle better, although the major focus in this forum is 1320 ft in a straight line, so that doesn't mean much. We sacrifice ground-pounding multiple g-pulling launches for agility and lightness.

Personally I don't plan to keep my Hondas forever, I'm just enjoying the road hugging handling and moderately fast engine while I've got the car. I used to own some pretty cool domestic v8's (67 Impala, 69 Camaro, 73 Mach 1 - I hated selling the Mustang). When my Prelude dies I'm going back to RWD, although not necessarily a v8 domestic. American cars can produce a lot of horses with relatively few bucks, but domestics just don't seem to have as much style as the imports.

It is this simple, some of us don't want to be like everyone else. Some people just want to be different.

Not that I personally hate domestics, but I have to ask, 200 hp and 2000 pounds, or 400 hp and 5 tons?

lol, honestly, I like most domestics, and most imports, but let's face it, they're an equalt bang-for-the-buck, if one puts out more, but ways mroe as well. It's all about sacrifice.

Power to Weight ratio. It's such a fun "formula" to play with. I love it. Late...

Damn straight. Lol. To put up a defence for imports, 8 digits....

R-B-2-6-D-E-T-T

gAME...oVER.

power to wieght, as people said. also old carburated pushrod engines are not very efficent. horible gas mileage. you can easily and reliably get over 100hp/litre out of small displacement (3.0l or less) 4 and 6 cyl fule injected over head cam engines. getting over 100hp/litre in a pushrod carburated v8 is hard. think about it. its not the easyest thing to get a 300cuin v8 to make 500hp. it easy to get a 2.0l i-4 fule injected over head cam to make 200hp.
the problem is displacement limits. getting very much more than 300-350 out of a 2.0l 4cyl is becmoes hard with out running decent boost and fule delivery and ECU modifications.
however Classic cars are boats. 4500 lbs. a 4500lb car making 450hp will be jsut as fast in theory as a 2000lb car with 200hp. but the 2000lb should handle better.
another issue i like to throw in is safety. modern cars are desigened to have crumple areas, most have air bags and lap and sholderbelts are required. i would much rather be driving an new sport compact weighitng 2400lbs with 250hp and seat belts to keep me firmly planted in the even of a roll over, air bags to protect me from the steering wheel, and a chasis deisgn to take the brunt of the impact and incase of a head on force the motor into the ground instead of into my lap; than a 4500 seperate chasses 450hp old non lock style seat belts boat.
Yes, an old 5.0 Fox body or old Z28 or 4th generation vett or Chevelle supercharged and cammed up is cheap sraight line. but if you like fast in the straighs and superb handleing FC's, FD's, 240SX, 300zx's, etc. are great. if you want to carve the corners like a turkey then old AE-86's, any RX-7, etc are great. i persoanally liek to lay down some forward G's but i also like lateral G's. as far as getting a cheap domestic that offers both, there is none. most domestics that offer better in both are far more expensive than most imports. i am not a fan of FWD, and i dont know why people mod FWD. especially for the straight, some FWD cars are great in the corners, such as CRX's, they are great because of a fast ratio steering box (but no power steering :( ) and super short wheel base and super lightness (less than 2000lbs original gross weight. easuly brought down to 1800 net weight)
i like both, i like classics because, well they are classics and some are beautiful. espically cars like the 426hemi cuda with slicks and headers running 10's. but i am a fan of imports...

Well, to answer one of your questions, used Supras (again this is in my area), aren't that much, so I dont think a 9 sec Supra is gonna be that expensive...Also, imho, S54B32s, RB26DETT and the 2JZ-GTE sound 100%s better than an LS1 or other domestic motor.

I even heard a quote from Ford about why they decided to convert one of their new Focus compacts to rear wheel drive and put in a 5.0 cammer motor (400 hp) "It is just a question of when the tuners will get sick of chasing diminishing returns from small powerplants."

the funny thing about that is that it cost ford (car+motor+parts+labor) over 100k to build that focus. talk about diminishing returns? spend 100k buying and tuning an Evo or MR2 and you'll run faster than that focus.

power to wieght, as people said. also old carburated pushrod engines are not very efficent. horible gas mileage. you can easily and reliably get over 100hp/litre out of small displacement (3.0l or less) 4 and 6 cyl fule injected over head cam engines. getting over 100hp/litre in a pushrod carburated v8 is hard. think about it. its not the easyest thing to get a 300cuin v8 to make 500hp. it easy to get a 2.0l i-4 fule injected over head cam to make 200hp.
the problem is displacement limits. getting very much more than 300-350 out of a 2.0l 4cyl is becmoes hard with out running decent boost and fule delivery and ECU modifications.
however Classic cars are boats. 4500 lbs. a 4500lb car making 450hp will be jsut as fast in theory as a 2000lb car with 200hp. but the 2000lb should handle better.
another issue i like to throw in is safety. modern cars are desigened to have crumple areas, most have air bags and lap and sholderbelts are required. i would much rather be driving an new sport compact weighitng 2400lbs with 250hp and seat belts to keep me firmly planted in the even of a roll over, air bags to protect me from the steering wheel, and a chasis deisgn to take the brunt of the impact and incase of a head on force the motor into the ground instead of into my lap; than a 4500 seperate chasses 450hp old non lock style seat belts boat.
Yes, an old 5.0 Fox body or old Z28 or 4th generation vett or Chevelle supercharged and cammed up is cheap sraight line. but if you like fast in the straighs and superb handleing FC's, FD's, 240SX, 300zx's, etc. are great. if you want to carve the corners like a turkey then old AE-86's, any RX-7, etc are great. i persoanally liek to lay down some forward G's but i also like lateral G's. as far as getting a cheap domestic that offers both, there is none. most domestics that offer better in both are far more expensive than most imports. i am not a fan of FWD, and i dont know why people mod FWD. especially for the straight, some FWD cars are great in the corners, such as CRX's, they are great because of a fast ratio steering box (but no power steering :( ) and super short wheel base and super lightness (less than 2000lbs original gross weight. easuly brought down to 1800 net weight)
i like both, i like classics because, well they are classics and some are beautiful. espically cars like the 426hemi cuda with slicks and headers running 10's. but i am a fan of imports...

Please read (In 10 words or less)

Thank you...










J/K

Im going back to the old "upbringing" and "exposure" arguements for this one. For me personally I have literally NEVER seen a fast import. I have seen imports that were fast from the factory (such as Evo's, Sti's, a few European fast cars) but people usually don't take the time to mod them, around here anyway. If I were to ever see a fast import that I didn't think was semi fast to begin with, it may turn me on to them
(IE a heavily modded CRX or something).

I also personally also find old domestics MUCH easier to work on. I just basically don't understand all the wiring and such that goes along with imports (I realize that its the same with pretty much all newer stuff, but I think the thread starter was refering to older muscle and newer imports).

Also, alot of older domestics don't weigh NEARLY what people think. Now granted I don't know of any old muscle cars weighing in the 2000 range (LAUGH), but I also dont know of any car considered hot rods that are in the 4500 range either. (they are definitely out there, but none that would be considered a muscle car).

Now onto the safety issue. Around 3 years ago I got into a head on collision with a 2000 model(ish) Toyota Celica. The Celica driver was drunk and fell asleep at the wheel on a 2 lane highway. I was in my 71 Nova. Anyways right as I we were about to pass one another he swerved into my lane and we had a head on impact while we were both doing about 45 mph. The Celica hit my car, went backwards through the ditch on the opposite side of the highway, and rolled twice. I literally pryed some of my fender from off my tire and later drove the car home. His car was totaled (obviously) and I LITERALLY drove mine home (minus the fender which I had later removed). Its like an aluminum can versus a tank. Now newer cars obviously have the advantage of air bags and such, but I personally wouldn't call them "safer" to drive.

I obviuosly defer the handling aspect to the import guys.. old domestics handle for shit and anyone that drives on (unless modded to handle better) knows it.


All in all its just preference. Some people like the rumbling always all there power of an old domestic, and some people like the powerful, great handling, fuel efficent feel of an import.

I might take some bashing for this, but I think this forum is more biased towards imports because most of the guys on here are younger people that need an economical, fast car that can get them from point A to point B while having some power to use getting there and is cheaper on insurance. They are basically just working with what they have (which is just what we all do) It just all boils down to preference.

Im gonna have to agree with 71nova.

Although on one point, he said also that hes never heard of a hot rod/muscle car weighing in the 4500 range. Well my dads 70 Buick GS stage one with the 455, weighed in at around 4500 or more pounds. Now as far as some of the imports, by the time you add enough mods and such to keep up with the big boys, youll be wieghing in at almost if not over 3000 lbs.

The fox body mustangs, and the LS1 or LT1 weighs only around 3500. Im not bashing either one, cause there are alot of imports out there that i like (such as our 89 300zx). I just dont like them when they are riced out, but ive also seen riced out domestic, and i hate that as well.

If you want straight line power then go with a domestic, easy to get the straight line power out of an old v8 muscle car, or a new v8 stang or camaro.

If you want handling plus good power and good gas, then get a modded import. If you have to have a domestic that is raw power and handles good, then get a vette or a viper :bigthumb:.

If you want an extremely quick import, then get an old bug with a 3000cc turbo engine, lol. 300hp in a 1600 lb car is insane.

^ :1: I definately agree. and here are my two cents.

1. Safety. Classic muscle cars are generally safer then newer imports in a 1 on 1 collision. Why? they're practically solid steel. Now the little import is great in a collision with another little import where there technilogical designs can react with each other really well. but if you get hit by an older steel brick or an SUV... Kiss your kids goodbye.
I'd much rather be Driving an older muscle car if I got in a wreck with an SUV.

2. Purchase price. Asian imports are generally 10x Cheaper than a Classic muscle car and Euro imports are generally in between (Comparing by a good condition car) Nothing more to say there.
I'd rather buy a asian import.

3. Modifying price. Classic muscle cars, and american domestics are generally cheaper to modify then European and Asian imports. (Not counting eBay modifying) And if you know how to do all the work yourself, you can build an enormous motor for... well... pretty damn cheap.
I'd rather modify An american Domestic.

4. Gas mileage. hahahahahaha.
I'd rather drive an asian import.

5. Comfort. Personally I find non luxury asian imports uncomfortable. The smaller car doesn't really fit me. And back seats in most "Sporty coupes" or "Sport compact cars" are laughable. Most American domestic cars are boats. and have plenty of room (And cargo space) I find the leather bench seats in my SDV pretty comfortable as well. the seats in all of the imports I've sat in/driven are... Not very comfortable. and from my experience the leather seats aren't much better.
I'd rather ride in an American car.

6. Power, P2W ratio. American cars make more power. I know I'll propabbly get flamed for that, but it can't be denied. seriously, they do make more power, even comparing tuned cars. Having said that, they generally weigh alot also. now not neccesarilly 4500 lbs. most are in the 2 tons to a little under or a little over. Most asian imports are in the 2200-3000 range, and most european imports are between the two.
Now Everybody uses the 200HP 2000lb vs 400hp 4000lb comparison. and while this is generally close to the case let me just say it's way off. your typical asian import doesnt weigh 2000 pounds. and if it does, it has no where near 200 hp. your general european import is starting to get portly and your typical american car is close to 4000 pounds, often has near 400HP but usually less, 350ish.
Now each of these cars is built with a different thing in mind though. typical asian import = decent power, good handling, fun ride.
typical european import = moderate power, good handling, smooth ride, all around nice.
typical muscle car = power, straight line, make the earth shake.
Now this is where personal preference comes in.

7. Personel Preference. Admit it. You don't often race a road course, you don't often race on twisty roads, but you still like a car that's capable of it. Propabbly 90% of us never races a course that involves more than a 10 degree turn. Using this analogy why would you want an import? I've already said that American cars make more power and more power = faster speed.
Why? Because we like to know that we can. Just like domestic drivers Like to know that we could run a 9 sec down the 1320.
Personally I know the majority of my racing is going to be in a straight line, and I'll build a car for that, I'm not going to build up an import as a drag car. it just doesnt make sense to me. I've never seen a import that was pushing 5000HP I have seen a domestic car with over 5000 There's quite a few of them, and they get down the drag strip in 4 and a half seconds at over 350 mph.

If I wanted to build an autocross car, I'd Propabbly still use a domestic car, just 'cause I'm kinda biased. A cobra would be my ideal car. however A small import would make a pretty good car, throw a couple thousand into suspension and you have an excellent handling car.
But Autocross isn't really my thing. and track racing is to far in the future. for now I'll stick to drag, 8 cylinders and 10 mp/g. doing burnouts when I give my car a bit to much gas and squealing tires when I take a corner at 20 Mp/h.

Edit:\ one more point.
Rice. Is it really that bad? A lowered car with tinted windows and a spoiler stickers and body graphics. Hey, It's probbly all the kid can afford.
Now look at some domestics. Chopped roof lowered to the ground shiny rims, chromed out engine, tinted windows, and a big ole roots stickin thru the hood. It costs alot to make your car look like that. and All you're doing is making a car unique, your own personal touch.

That's all the "Ricers" are doing too, just they have a lot lower of a budget. so please. be nice to rice.

If you think a car that doesn't deform (except for the passenger area) in an accident its safer I'm sorry to say it but you guys require a refresher course in basic physics.

ok, I have to jump into this on the crash factor

you know what a lap belt does?

it paralises you...its only function is to keep you from going out the windshield. If that 45mph crash was a 70mph or more, you would be paralised or dead. Also, it is a thick steel can, but thats all it is, steel sheets. Modern cars have impact zones, which work like a bullet proof vest. The area crumples and absorbes the impact defusing the force so the people inside stay alive and generally safe. Ive seen quite a few high speed crashes, the lil imports are always totaled, but no ambulence needed generally....the older cars and trucks...well...they dont usually walk away so well.

Trust me, automotive enginers have been doing something other than making cars smaller over the last few decades. :2cents:

in an old car, during a head on crash, your car will be fine. but the shock of the whole impact will go thru your whole body and it will throughly fuck you up. not to mention before they put crumple zones, the hood would come off the hing and fly thru your windshield cutting your head right off.

and you prefer bench seats. no problem. but i actually like to be held in my seat snuggly with nice laterial support when i drive thank you. sitting in a bench seat, the smallest amount of cornering will let you slide side to side,and your practically only hanging on by the steering wheel.

i've sat in a vew old school domestics such as a oldsmobile 442 with a 502 crate engine in it. the car was freaking quick, but however just turning around the block and every little thing that involved a slight turn threw me all over the car, and the car felt like a boat!! sorry but super high sidewalls, and a recirculating ball steering sucks for cornering!!!

you also make it sound like a good handling car can't be fun to drive. i guess you've never driven a good handling car. the difference between a good handling car to a poor one is like night and day. even in the smallest amount cornering.

when i'm stressed, i go on a nice long drive on the highway and it will just put a smile on my face becasue the car is just sooo much fun to drive in any corner, such as offramps, high speed sweepers on the highway etc.

i can generally go over 100mph and corner with no problem becasue my feed back from teh wheel is pretty good, and the seats are near bucket seat like. with a pretty tight suspension.

whenever i drive my dad's van, it scares the shit out of me. driving 60 makes me extremely nervous. the seats don't hold you in for shit, the car feels floaty. the car has too much sway, the brakes are hard to modulate. everything matters when you drive a car. even if its just going to and from work or school.

it these little details that makes a import a import.

Im going back to the old "upbringing" and "exposure" arguements for this one. For me personally I have literally NEVER seen a fast import. I have seen imports that were fast from the factory (such as Evo's, Sti's, a few European fast cars) but people usually don't take the time to mod them, around here anyway. If I were to ever see a fast import that I didn't think was semi fast to begin with, it may turn me on to them
(IE a heavily modded CRX or something).

I also personally also find old domestics MUCH easier to work on. I just basically don't understand all the wiring and such that goes along with imports (I realize that its the same with pretty much all newer stuff, but I think the thread starter was refering to older muscle and newer imports).

Also, alot of older domestics don't weigh NEARLY what people think. Now granted I don't know of any old muscle cars weighing in the 2000 range (LAUGH), but I also dont know of any car considered hot rods that are in the 4500 range either. (they are definitely out there, but none that would be considered a muscle car).

Now onto the safety issue. Around 3 years ago I got into a head on collision with a 2000 model(ish) Toyota Celica. The Celica driver was drunk and fell asleep at the wheel on a 2 lane highway. I was in my 71 Nova. Anyways right as I we were about to pass one another he swerved into my lane and we had a head on impact while we were both doing about 45 mph. The Celica hit my car, went backwards through the ditch on the opposite side of the highway, and rolled twice. I literally pryed some of my fender from off my tire and later drove the car home. His car was totaled (obviously) and I LITERALLY drove mine home (minus the fender which I had later removed). Its like an aluminum can versus a tank. Now newer cars obviously have the advantage of air bags and such, but I personally wouldn't call them "safer" to drive.

I obviuosly defer the handling aspect to the import guys.. old domestics handle for shit and anyone that drives on (unless modded to handle better) knows it.


All in all its just preference. Some people like the rumbling always all there power of an old domestic, and some people like the powerful, great handling, fuel efficent feel of an import.

I might take some bashing for this, but I think this forum is more biased towards imports because most of the guys on here are younger people that need an economical, fast car that can get them from point A to point B while having some power to use getting there and is cheaper on insurance. They are basically just working with what they have (which is just what we all do) It just all boils down to preference.
Honestly it shouldn't be that hard. I mean, I live here in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, and we have street legal drag CRXs. Thay're fast, but we also have WAY too many muscle cars here, and we have a few exotics, GT40, 360 Spider you're right though, there are a limited amoutn of modified fast imports. But, it comes down to a matter of preferance. Some guys like imports, others like domestics. Problem solved.

Man, i gotta say Im proud of everyonefor not turning this into a flame war. TatII, I agree with you fully abuot the handling thing. Whats even wierder is the difference between two good handling cars. For example, I can take my Bimmer through the twisties any day of the week, and feel totally safe, but if I do it in my mom's C320...that thing has more body roll than a fat chick at a rave, and it handles very well.

I think it also comes dowm more than to just 'what brand' you prefer, its also where you like to go fast. I'm not saying domestics cant handle, I'm just saying Imports do it much better. Personally, I prefere a ballance of speed and handling straight from the factory.

And for people saying you dont see many fast imports, I'd recomend looking jsut a tad bit harder. In my area, there are several very fast Civics and Tegs in my area. And I'm not talking about Si's and Typre Rs and GSRs. I'm saying mid 13 EXs and a low 12/high 11 LS. So they are out there. THe problem is, they like to stay low, becuase of the reciprocation of the rice culture. Its sad to say, but in my area, several imports (both Asian and Euro) that can be considered 'rice' (I honestly hate that implication. Rice is an attittude, not a style of car. I know a guy wiht a bone stock Teg LS, body kit, huge wing, fart can, and all, but he knows his car is slow, and he just likes it the way it is, and doesn't act like its bad ass) have been vandalized, as far as having mufflers kicked off, keyed, windows broken, and rear wings ripped off. So most of the people in my area with fast Imports that used to be slow try to lay low and not draw any attention to themselves.

Now as far as some of the imports, by the time you add enough mods and such to keep up with the big boys, youll be wieghing in at almost if not over 3000 lbs.

I have to call you out on this. Your not going to add wight making an import faster. If anything the aftermarket parts, exhaust especially weigh a lot less then OEM parts. The only thing that would add any weight would be a turbocharger which wouldn't weigh more then 100lbs. (im guessing with the intercooler, piping, and actual turbine housing) I believe that the silvias used for drifting weigh no more then 2300lbs, and they make 400hp. Your statement makes absolutely no sense unless you think that every import adds subs, bodykits, and neon underglow to hang with the "big boys".

My opinion about the whole import domestic deal is while old muscle = total domination in a straight line they feel kinda sloppy/unrefined to me with the bench seats, and typically lackluster brakes, and suspension. G machines with upgraded susepension, brakes, and interiors are more my taste when it comes to old muscle. For now however I can only afford an import, and thats the closest thing I can get to that kind of refinement that I like in a car. It's totally personal opinion as someone else could totally give a crap less about "refinement"

Muscle Cars do not weigh as much as many of you have speculated. Even some of the heavier one's such as the Buick GS Stage 1, 1970 GTO(The Judge), 1970 Chevelle 454(LS6) all are under 4,000lbs there are in the 3800-3900lbs range. Also Fox Stangs range from 3,000-3,200lbs, with 3rd Gen F-bodies a few hundred more. Muscle car #'s gotten from LMC.

As far as the rest of it I'm just gonna leave it alone cause no matter how you slice it. It's still the same old Domestic vs. Import debate.

Just drive what you like, have fun with people who share like tastes, and respect others who have differing taste.

Hi,
I didn't mean to start a war! Most people were more reasonable as time went on, though.

Anyways, there is alot of good points. The gas mileage will always go to the import or small cars, as there are also small domestic cars as well (my '82 fairmont with a 2.3 liter is an example, 30 mpg, my winter beater).

It really does boil down to personal preference. And, in practicality, the imports tend to be alot more comfortable, better handling, and streetable.

The diminishing returns parts was not intended to be for the import or domestic debate but instead about the motor technology vs. cost. Hence, we must also remember some domestics can be VERY light. My '82 is quoted (factory) of having a 2600 lb weight with auto trans and 2.3L, and my '78 weighs around the same as it has been totally stripped (just has drivers seat and Aluminum dash) despite having a ~320 hp 306.

One last point - I incessantly "hear" about people having 12/11 sec imports but could people print some timeslips, some motor build specs, or etc.? I was very impressed to see the Jekyll/Hyde MR2 dip into the 11's. Some guy across the alley from me insists he has a 12-sec Focus but always chickens out when I suggest a race.

We also have to remember how many people may be making these times when they are building time bombs. I personally know one guy going mid-9's in a stock block 5.0 turbo motor and that motor is just waiting to blow up - the stock block is too weak. He has pulled some very impressive and consistent times, though.

I am open minded - please convince me imports are really fast. I just want proof because the proof I see everyday is downright discouraging.

Thanks

Imports are fast:

///M5
///M3
Ferraris
Lambos
AMG Benzs
Paganis
Audi S and RS models
Aston Martin Vanquish and Vantage
Ultima
TVR Tuscan
And the Mclaren, which I believe still holds teh record for the fastest street legal car

Need any more convincing that imports are fast?

Thank you for backing me up on the safety thing all.
FYI, a lap belt is what keeps you from hitting the windsheild, a sholderbelt is what keps you form eating the steering wheel. if worn properly, even in the worst of crashes, you may get a bas bruise and seat belt burn. the problem is that most people dont know how to sear a seat belt properly, or choose not to. I myself always wear a seat belt, especially when driving. i have known too many people that have died because they where either:
thrown from the vehicle in a roll over and the car rolled over them
flew through the wind sheild
slamed their head agianst something which killed them instantly

If all yo uare worried about is your cars safety and good looks, yes but a heavy solid stell domestic, but when you slip a disk in your back and die from whiplash because the car absorbed 1% of the impact and your body took the rest, dont be angry.
Im glad no one has really made this an IMport v. Domestic war. most every one has given why thye like what they like and has shown reasons why the other has its strong points.
As for cheap modification. even without ebay it is about the same. i can build a turbo kit for about the price of a Roots blower and proper carburator.
i can buy new fule injectors and fule rail for the price of a new carburator
fule pumps are the same
exaust is the same
internals actually cost more on domestics because they have more pistons and larger cranks
intake manifolds are cheaper on domestics, but exaust is cheaper on 4cyl imports.
the only real thing that cost more for imports is a new ECU. ECU's on Fule iNjeted dometics cost mroe than most high performance import ECU's but if you are planning on moding a fule injected domestic to the porint you need a performance tunred ECU you are completely insance and should be scared to take that on the road.
as for the weight issue. modern domestics weigh in the 3000lb range (C6 Vett, Mustang GT, SVT, Viper, etc) but classic full sized sedans made of all steel weigh in the 4000+ range when they rolled off the lot. im not saying a Fox body weighs 4,000 or a fast back mustang weighs much over 4,000. but cars like Chevy Bel Air, Chevelle's, even the Road Runner and classic 'Hemi' weighed well into the 4,000 range. but htey made up for it with well into the high 300hp area to the wheels.
CRX weighs less than 2000 when it rolled off the lot. 2nd generation RX-7 weighted middle 2,000 off the lot. 3rd just below 3,000 but easily lightened, 240SX low 3,000 high 2,000. 300ZX high 2,000. thats jsut to name a few.
i dont know what kind of driving ya'll do but Solo II, Auto X, even road racing do well over 10 degree turns, most hae at least 1 90 and Auto X and Solo II usually have well over 90. hairpins turn abouts ETC. and there are a few twisties around here that most cars cant handle going over 40-50. there is one S-Turn that is 2 100 degree. that one is a pain, you actually turn and drive backwards a few feet before going back in the previous direction. its very fun, there is a soft ditch all the way around it so we usually grab an old beater and see who can make it through the fastest. ive made it 48 tops. tires squaling likce crazy the whole way. it was more of a drift than a carve. ive also been in the ditch a few times.

I have to call you out on this. Your not going to add wight making an import faster. If anything the aftermarket parts, exhaust especially weigh a lot less then OEM parts. The only thing that would add any weight would be a turbocharger which wouldn't weigh more then 100lbs. (im guessing with the intercooler, piping, and actual turbine housing) I believe that the silvias used for drifting weigh no more then 2300lbs, and they make 400hp. Your statement makes absolutely no sense unless you think that every import adds subs, bodykits, and neon underglow to hang with the "big boys".

Nope, just wasnt thinking right on what i was saying in that sentence. I do see where you are coming from, thanks for pointing that out. And no i do NOT think all imports add subs and bodykits and all that other CRAP. Like i said before, there are alot of nice imports as also a lot of nice domestic muscle.

Both are fast, that i will admit. But to me, for some reason the muscle is a different fast. The muscle is a powerful slamming you into the seat, just raw power fast, as to me and import is more of a slicing through the wind, not really knowing you are that fast until you look down and see, or can feel the nose of the car getting a little light.

But i will admit, i do stand corrected on the weight of import mods.

From my shopping around internals on an import 6 cylinder have actually on average costed more than internals for an 8... and the difference was about 200-300 bucks. it doesnt seem right considering the sixes have 2 less cylinders yet still cost more.

The McLaren F1 is not the fastest street legal car. It might still be the fastest production car. but I'm pretty sure it's not the quickest ;)
(BTW McLarens are bad. They stole that title from the XJ220 my favorite little car. Despite what ford did to it.)

And does anyone know of some REALLLLY fast or REALLLY quick imports? like sub 7's

I've got to add to the safety issue of the older cars, my father has owned many muscle cars in his life and a few have came close to taking his life. He had a 68 chevelle(sp?) a drunk driver hit him coming out of a corner speeding and the steering wheel was forced into his face, this took out some of his lower teeth and put his top front teeth through his upper lip. Had another car I forget what it was but had a similar accident and it almost killed a friend of his in the car with him, again head on. Now I feel more comfortable driving or riding in an older car since the chances of having another car rip it in half is less likely but coming to a sudden stop or slowing fast without something giving isn't good on the human body, same goes for your kidneys while driving a rigid import not saying all have a stiff ride but most of the more sporty imports let you feel most of the bumps in the road and after a while it's like riding dirt bike. But I love driving both kinds so I guess all my rambling was for nothing..

Is the sledgehammer Corvette considered a production car? If so I seem to remember it having a top speed of 250+ mph, not sure if that number is true but I think I read it somewhere before just can't remember where.

Edit: Not all of us that drive imports have the luxury of getting good mpg, I'm lucky to get 18mpg on the highway but I normally get around 13-15 mpg. I know this only applies to a few cars but I'm still jealous of V8s getting 20+ mpg with better power then me :banghead:

Unibody's wont tare in half. as a matter of fact they are designed to crumple all around except for the cabbin wherethe passengers are. its a little safety zone. 100% safer than a seperate chassis and body.
as for the kidney thing, im assumeing you drive an FC 7. they arent the easyet of rider but a hell of alot smoother than old Leaf Springs. and i dont know what performance you have done to your 1.3l but if you are geting 15 to the gallon that is your cars falt, that is you driving around all day with your foot to the floor or you have a leak somewhere in your fule system.

It's more like the foot to the floor more then anything since I have got better mileage but it's just hard to keep out of the throttle sometimes.
As far as a unibody car ripping in half I've seen crash test where smaller compact cars that have been hit by larger luxury cars that have been both crushed and others have been ripped half, but this was from a rear end collision and side impacts in gridlock conditions where they try to emulate a driver coming up to stopped traffic without slowing.

I also lost a cousin earlier this year that drove a civic, she wasn't speeding she was coming around a corner downhill and somehow lost control of her car and it slid then went off road flipping then hit a rock and tore most of the drivers side off of the car. The rescue crew that worked her accident said the car looked like the drivers side had been opened with the Jaws of Life from the door to the roof. They still don't understand how she wrecked since her younger sister was in a car in front of her and they had just seen her behind them then watched as she lost control, could have been driver error or bad road conditions we just don't know, but the car didn't look like a civic after the crash.

well, from personal experiance, i am going through that same debate in my head.
i own a j30t from infiniti.. RWD, import
i used to own a 88 ltd crown victoria... RWD Domestic

now these are two different cars, but they both have one thing in common.... price :) i paid 500 for each of them...

the crown vic had the safest conditions. it withstood the rage of a suv and i was able to drive it home. the suv was not so lucky.
The J30 i bought came from a friend who wrecked it... just salvaged personally and did alot of body work, but by the looks of it... i would have hated to be in another wreck with it. While driving it it feels much lighter and while installing the body.. it felt no where near as strong as the crown vic. Stronger in my mind is better...
speed... the J30 all the way. the odomoter reads 150, which i've hit 140 in it before... and the crown vic reads 85.. though i've hit 100 in it... the J30 has it smoked in speed..

burnouts... The crown vic had this one down... the tires would just go crazy.... it was so much fun peeling out of the school parking lot in this thing. The J30 can peel.. don't get me wrong, but it doesn't give as much pull to it than the Crown Vic.

Handling.... J30 here... the seats and the lightness of the car have the crown vic defeated. Corners real nice. The crown vic never had me feel like it was going to flip... though the j30 did a few times.
though going around small spaces, the J30 could get to it quicker and easier.

Power... well... considering the weight ratio is unfair, and the 302 i had put out only about 225 hp... it is safe to say that the j30 with a v6 pushing 210 had a better ratio... though revving the engine... the V8 sounded much much better.

Comfort... Crown vic all the way. how many of you can sleep in the back seat of your car comfortably? *among other things* i could in that car... it was perfect for road trips. 20mpg was nice (the way i drove) and the seats felt so nice. The J30 get's 20-22mpg and back seats are so uncomfortable, my lil brother has to put a comforter down when he rides with me. I drove 10 hours straight on a road trip and had back pains for the next two days... no fun. did the same thing in the crown vic... felt much better.

As import vs domestic goes? whatever you are suited for. if you want comfort and ease to work on, go rwd domestic. If you want fuel efficientcy, go import. If you want just plain power that scares all that is around you, go old school classic import. if you want speed and insurance breaks... choose, because you should have two cars anyway. one to race or soop up, and the other to daily drive. I won't say that imports are slow, because i know for a fact they aren't. I've seen 9 second civics, as well as 7 second mustangs... but who drives that everyday? it costs alot of money and time to make any car that fast. And insurance is not cheap for that. Make your choice on what fits you best. It's your car, no one elses. Do what you want to do.

One last point - I incessantly "hear" about people having 12/11 sec imports but could people print some timeslips, some motor build specs, or etc.? I was very impressed to see the Jekyll/Hyde MR2 dip into the 11's.
Thank you.

Almost all of my slips are on my Web site along with a bunch of videos (or you can order the DVD! :) ) and a complete mod list. As long as my engine passes it's winter physical, I will be blowing well beyond mid 11s in the spring. :D

If there is one thing I swear by, it's documentation of my runs.