Deserter!!

Jeremy Hinzman is a deserter from the US Army.
He volunteered 3 years ago and served in Afghanistan.
However, when his unit was transferred to Iraq, he went AWOL and found his way to Canada. Before leaving, he did apply for consciencious (sp) objector status but was refused.

Now he's applying for refugee status in Canada, on the grounds that the war in Iraq is unjustified, illegal and involves killing innocent civilians. Day one of his refugee hearing was today.

As a Canadian, I believe he is abusing the refugee system in Canada.
Like the US, Canada can only allow a certain number of immigrants into this country each year. There are many more immigration and refugee claimnants than the number of people the government will allow in.
True refugees have claims of suffering inhumane hardships, torture, persecution etc in their own country, but there are just not enough spaces available in the annual quota to allow all of them in.

So, how can someone from a wealthy, comfortable nation such as the US, who volunteered for potentially risky duty possibly have grounds for refugee status?
If he was allowed to stay, he would be displacing another refugee claimnant, who may have REAL cause for wanting to leave his or her own country.

Theoretically, the only sound reason why he would be allowed to stay is if the US military would execute or torture him for desertion. Correct me if I am wrong, but they don't do that. Military prison may be uncomfortable, but I don't think it would fit the definition of torture.

So, IMHO, the regardless of the opinion of the refugee court on the war in Iraq, the Canadian government should not allow him to stay. The only reason why he has gotten this far is due to the support of anti-war protestors in this country who are using Mr. Hinzman as a high profile case to promote their cause, without regard to the legal basis of his claim.

If he is allowed to stay, it's predicted there would be a steady stream of deserters making the same claim.

Any opinions?

I'm assuming you meant to type that he served in Afghanistan and then his unit was transferred to IRAQ?

Why was he refused conscientous objector status?

How about a link then - Jeremy Hinzman (http://www.duckdaotsu.org/070704-hinzman.html)

...or two... US Soldier on Frontline in Battle for Refugee Status (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0221-02.htm)

From what I've read so far, the man is a good soldier but refuses to set aside his humanity.

If I was in your place as a Canadian i'd say send him back to America, but as an American I want to say you can keep him, I dont want a deserter to live in my country. But heck, send him back here.

I'm assuming you meant to type that he served in Afghanistan and then his unit was transferred to IRAQ?

From what I've read so far, the man is a good soldier but refuses to set aside his humanity.
Post corrected.

I suspect his former employers would feel he is a very bad soldier

Here is another link with a bit of background about a group supporting his claim.
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php?story=20040415143908704
That site also has links to tell the Canadian Gov't how you really feel about this situation.
.

he volunteered, and continued to serve after being denied conscientious objector status.

from what i understand, they tell you before you sign the final papers whether or not that status was granted.

if thats correct, i have no sympathy for him.

he volunteered, and continued to serve after being denied conscientious objector status.

from what i understand, they tell you before you sign the final papers whether or not that status was granted.

if thats correct, i have no sympathy for him.
I suspect his former employers would feel he is a very bad soldier
After spending a few months training with his unit at Fort Bragg, Hinzman filed a conscientious objector application. He hadn’t been a slacker while contemplating this decision. He’d been awarded the highly coveted expert infantry badge, worn only by those who master dozens of tasks involving deadly military skills. He’s aced parts of the army physical fitness test and was admired by his superiors for his work ethic.

After receiving his application, the army removed him from training and assigned him duty as a guard at the gates of Fort Bragg, checking IDs to keep terrorists from invading the home of the Airborne Infantry. Yet when his unit received orders to deploy to Afghanistan, Hinzman was ordered to go with them. His superiors claimed they had no record of his conscientious objector application.

Hinzman deployed and while on a clerical detail, discovered his application in, of all places, his personnel record. A hearing was convened and after Hinzman explained that, in the event of an attack he would defend his friends in the unit in which he’s served for two years, his application was denied. The Army wouldn’t discharge him.

Seems there was a mixup :rolleyes: with the paperwork, eh?

Evidently they thought he was a good enough soldier to deploy him based on the fact that he would still defend his unit.

Hmmmn.....

A hearing was convened and after Hinzman explained that, in the event of an attack he would defend his friends in the unit in which he’s served for two years, his application was denied.

sounds like he blew his own conscientious objector status to me. i certainly hope the military isnt too hard on him, in light of their foul up, but i certainly dont give him my sympathy.

Part of me feels for him because he did not want to fight anymore, and with a record like that, he had, but to me, haul his ass home. Don't treat him too harshly, if anything a year imprisonment and dishonorable discharge.

A year in prison for what? He doesn't deserve to go to jail. Sounds to me like he signed up for service not really knowing what he was getting into. That's not grounds for imprisonment.

I certainly don't think he should be granted asylum by the Canadian government.

He should get his dishonorable discharge and fined for the cost of prosecution, but spend no time in jail.













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I certainly don't think he should be granted asylum by the Canadian government.

He should get his dishonorable discharge and fined for the cost of prosecution, but spend no time in jail.

:1:

Agreed.

You sign up for the forces, you hand over your life and youir morals to your employer for the tewrm of your contract.If he didn't want to be a soldier,he shouldmn't have signed.Sack him and send him home.Dishonour is a punishment enough in itself.

Yea, dishonorable discharge and fines sound good.

A Dishonorable Discharge may sound good right now, some anti-military types and peaceniks even view it as "cool", like an act of protest. The reality is, you're fucked for life unless your daddy owns the company you work for and is prepared to cover for you and make excuses for your loozer life for the rest of your days. Canada doesn't want you, and the US certainly doesn't want you. A Disonorable Discharge is the worst possible thing I can think of, except for maybe child molester.

You sign up for the forces, you hand over your life and youir morals to your employer for the tewrm of your contract.If he didn't want to be a soldier,he shouldmn't have signed.Sack him and send him home.Dishonour is a punishment enough in itself.Holy crap, I agree with taranaki. :confused:

Being a military corrections officer, I see more than my fair share of deserters on a daily basis. A typical sentence for a deserter seems to be about 4 months confinement, and a Bad Conduct Discharge. Depending on the particulars of his case, and how it is interpreted (deserting in the face of the enemy) it could be a while longer.

Now for my personal feelings about desertion... To the kids coming through my doors every day. There's more to this than easy money for college. If you can't hack it, send them packing. You go where you are told and follow the orders you are given because you took an oath. It's not a suggestion, it's a legal contract that you signed.

The military isn't scout camp. If you just want money for college, get a job. If you have any doubt about the oath you take or the contract you are about to sign, walk away, nobody is stopping you. If you change your mind when it gets unpleasant, tough shit, suck it up, do your job.

Without this, the military can't function. We aren't all mindless killers, and we can't choose where we go. Those decisions are made by others.

The military isn't scout camp. If you just want money for college, get a job. If you have any doubt about the oath you take or the contract you are about to sign, walk away, nobody is stopping you. If you change your mind when it gets unpleasant, tough shit, suck it up, do your job.

I must say, this is a VERY interesting post from a unique viewpoint...

Do you feel the US military marketing is too misleading, perhaps? Every US military TV commercial I've seen (and I think anyone from North America has seen them) simply talks about "being all you can be," "making a better life for yourself," "Will pay for college," etc. I can't say I've ever seen a bullet fired in any of the commercials, I just see planes flying around doing stunts and soldiers rappelling down cliffs and the like. They are certainly working to get new recruits, but perhaps they aren't effectively portraying what these people are actually getting into?

[QUOTE=ledhedsymbols]
Now for my personal feelings about desertion... To the kids coming through my doors every day. There's more to this than easy money for college. If you can't hack it, send them packing. You go where you are told and follow the orders you are given because you took an oath. It's not a suggestion, it's a legal contract that you signed.

The military isn't scout camp. If you just want money for college, get a job. If you have any doubt about the oath you take or the contract you are about to sign, walk away, nobody is stopping you. If you change your mind when it gets unpleasant, tough shit, suck it up, do your job.

Uh-oh, the truth is gonna hurt some feelings. They think the Guard IS scout camp.

I must say, this is a VERY interesting post from a unique viewpoint...

Do you feel the US military marketing is too misleading, perhaps? Every US military TV commercial I've seen (and I think anyone from North America has seen them) simply talks about "being all you can be," "making a better life for yourself," "Will pay for college," etc. I can't say I've ever seen a bullet fired in any of the commercials, I just see planes flying around doing stunts and soldiers rappelling down cliffs and the like. They are certainly working to get new recruits, but perhaps they aren't effectively portraying what these people are actually getting into?

The military is very good at accentuating the positive and eliminating the negative........Perhaps a better commercial would be,

"Join the forces! We'll own your ass for the next decade! The food and living quarters are appalling! You will be treated like shit! You may be called upon to fight in wars that you disagree with,using weapons and tactics that are an affront to your morality! You will be lied to and brainwashed on a daily basis! You may have to face enemies that you don't think you should be fighting,knowing that if you don't kill them, they'll try to kill you! We'll pay for your funeral, or your artificial limb, or any other medical expenses, but don't expect us to heal your mind afterwards, because we really don't give a shit!"


Sounds enticing,doesn't it?

Sounds enticing,doesn't it?

Just sounds like another one of your same old same old posts.

Just sounds like another one of your same old same old posts.

lol.....you best reply just sucked.......... :loser:

First I would like to point out the only US Military force that doesn't use that style of advertising. The United States Marine Corps. Their ads are more about accepting challenge and adversity rather than what you can get from the military. The USMC exceeds recruitment goals and in my experience turns out a superior quality recruit out of basic training. It's a different culture with a much different attitude. That being said...

There are most definately two sides to the coin in the military. I'll use myself as an example. I just passed six years in the Navy. My first two were spent in school learning to work on shipboard weapons systems. I spent the next four years at sea. I was deployed overseas for 9 months in 2001 (Operation Enduring Freedom) and 10 and one-half months in 2003 (Operation Iraqi Freedom.) In between there were numerous other times spent away from home port (Seattle Washington.) In that time I worked long hours, missed my family, and dealt with both officers and senior enlisted personnel I disagreed with. Also during this time, I found out what is really important to me in life. I earned a good wage, and accrued over 40 thousand dollars for college.

This spring I left sea duty and reported to the Seattle Brig. I attend class during the day, and work 12 hour night shifts about four days per week. I plan on leaving the Navy in two and a half years with a bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering, and an Associates Degree in Criminal Justice Administration.

What's the moral of this story..... There's no such thing as a free lunch. It has been the best of times and the worst of times, but I know more about myself and my capabilities than I think I would have ever learned anywhere else. It's a pretty unpleasant world out there sometimes, and it doesn't owe any of us a thing. Know what you are getting into, and then stick to your word. The price and rewards are great....


One last word.... Don't forget those that have paid the ultimate price.

^ Sounds like you know your stuff. So guys my age signing up are warned to the fullest extent what they are in for? The advertisments for the millitary I sometimes see make it seem like your going to get payed to travel to desireable destinations and party the entire time before going off to college.

First I would like to point out the only US Military force that doesn't use that style of advertising. The United States Marine Corps. Their ads are more about accepting challenge and adversity rather than what you can get from the military. The USMC exceeds recruitment goals and in my experience turns out a superior quality recruit out of basic training. It's a different culture with a much different attitude. That being said...

There are most definately two sides to the coin in the military. I'll use myself as an example. I just passed six years in the Navy. My first two were spent in school learning to work on shipboard weapons systems. I spent the next four years at sea. I was deployed overseas for 9 months in 2001 (Operation Enduring Freedom) and 10 and one-half months in 2003 (Operation Iraqi Freedom.) In between there were numerous other times spent away from home port (Seattle Washington.) In that time I worked long hours, missed my family, and dealt with both officers and senior enlisted personnel I disagreed with. Also during this time, I found out what is really important to me in life. I earned a good wage, and accrued over 40 thousand dollars for college.

This spring I left sea duty and reported to the Seattle Brig. I attend class during the day, and work 12 hour night shifts about four days per week. I plan on leaving the Navy in two and a half years with a bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering, and an Associates Degree in Criminal Justice Administration.

What's the moral of this story..... There's no such thing as a free lunch. It has been the best of times and the worst of times, but I know more about myself and my capabilities than I think I would have ever learned anywhere else. It's a pretty unpleasant world out there sometimes, and it doesn't owe any of us a thing. Know what you are getting into, and then stick to your word. The price and rewards are great....


One last word.... Don't forget those that have paid the ultimate price.
:thumbsup:

Another good post.

Now with hindsight, do you think you would have joined then if you knew exactly what it would be like? I'm most certainly not trying to imply these years haven't been good for you - forgive me if it comes across that way - but would you have preferred to do things differently?

Also, do you feel you were misled about what the military would be like - do you feel recruits have a false sense of how easy/hard the next few years will be?

Sorry if I sound prying :D I'm just genuinely interested in learning what would inspire someone to join the military - it's certainly always been one of the last things I've wanted to do in life...

lol.....you best reply just sucked.......... :loser:

That wasn't my best but I get tired of hearing the same old thing post after post. For example we already know you wish Bush dead. We already know you hate Bush. We already know that you think Bush is an idiot. Every topic you post in turns out your post is anti-Bush, anti US government no matter what the subject is. When my wife does that I call it nagging and I refuse to listen. When I read one of your posts from the last 6 months all I see is BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.

You need to get past the fact that Bush is here for 4 more years and that the US is in Iraq. I know you say you are not anti-American but your actions are starting to look that way. Show me one post that isn't bashing the US? BTW you can go back to the day you joined AF if you like. And I left it a broad subject for you to find a positive post on the US. But keep it to this one forum.

^ Sounds like you know your stuff. So guys my age signing up are warned to the fullest extent what they are in for? The advertisments for the millitary I sometimes see make it seem like your going to get payed to travel to desireable destinations and party the entire time before going off to college.


If someone is so dumb that they'ed believe military duty is like a vacation, then they are too dumb for the military in the first place. The military offers opportunity for education, and travel, but it's not free. It's still the best deal in town for those that want a formal education but can't afford it. And military duty does something more, it grows young men up in ways that a lot of people don't realize, some people in this forum being a good example. All education doesn't come from a college campus, or get paid for by mommy.

If someone is so dumb that they'ed believe military duty is like a vacation, then they are too dumb for the military in the first place. The military offers opportunity for education, and travel, but it's not free. It's still the best deal in town for those that want a formal education but can't afford it. And military duty does something more, it grows young men up in ways that a lot of people don't realize, some people in this forum being a good example. All education doesn't come from a college campus, or get paid for by mommy.

Parents who raise their children to be young men and young women as opposed to forever adolescent have armed them with the tools they need to make an informed decision. Also parents, I believe, should take the time to discuss the decision with a potential volunteer to ensure that they know exactly what they are getting into.

All the complains about stop-loss is a good example of volunteers not knowing the facts before they sign. It is not a back door draft. Its conditions are acknowledged with the signing of the enlistment contract.

Conscientious objector is another one. This is a matter that is dealt with during enlistment.

People who join without knowing the facts can be real moral crushers at best. At worst they can result in an emboldened enemy and unnecessary unit fatalities.

And military duty does something more, it grows young men up in ways that a lot of people don't realize

Very very true. But at what price?

I think I would rather be slightly more immature and not have to deal with the mental and emotional scars of participating in a war...

When my grandfather was still alive, he and I chatted some about his military service - he was fairly high up in the ranks in the Canadian Artillery during World War II and led some campaigns in various places such as Sicily. However, the memories and scars he had from that service continually haunted him until his death at 90...

Also, my mothers father (who died before I was born) also served in WWII, and afterwards he could do nothing but drink - the memories were too much.

Clearly not everyone that joins the military has that bad of an experience, but I don't think I would be willing to participate in a war I didn't believe in and sacrifice some of my future happiness to raise my maturity level faster, or pay for college.

First off, I apologize that it took me so long to get back to this thread. I was away this weekend chasing the almighty steelhead salmon. Without success I might add. Someday I'll get one of these bastards to bite on a fly.

Next, Thourun: I couldn't imagine making a decision of this magnatude without gathering information and asking questions. Not of the recruiter, they are paid to convince you to join the military, ask your parents (they really do know more than teenagers give them credit for) or someone with RECENT experience with the service you are looking at. The next step is the soul search. One, you have to ask yourself if you are willing to carry out the oath that you have to take? Two, can you justify killing another person if you are ordered to? Thankfully I have never been called on to do that, but it is something I have come to terms with.

Heep, I can't imagine what I might have become if I had done something else. I know I wasn't ready for real life when I was 19. I was failing my university classes, hated my major, and needed the structure and direction in the military. I learned how to be an adult in this organization. Where else would a 21 year old kid from Salk Lake City Utah be placed in absolute control of 5 million dollars worth of equipment and 10 thousand rounds of depleted uranuim ammunition? It's amazing how quickly a person can become responsible when they are given the opportunity and told that they will be held accountable.
As far as why I joined specifically. I needed to find something in life. My family has a tradition of military service. The Navy offered the best benefits package of all the services, and above all else, I felt the desire to be part of something bigger than my little selfish life.

Before I go, I'd like to toss a grenade into the room right quick... I plan on requiring my children (should I ever have them) to spend at least 2 years in the military or other organization before I will pay for their schooling. That isn't to say that they have to join the Navy. The Peace Corps is a perfect alternative, or UNICEF or any other organization that we can agree on. I think it is important for young people to appreciate how hard real life can be before they are given a free ride to college. I can't count the number of people I know (one ex-girlfriend in particular) that have spent years squanering their parents money with nothing to show for it. I don't think anyone should get a free ride in life. How can they appreciate what they have otherwise?

Before I go, I'd like to toss a grenade into the room right quick... I plan on requiring my children (should I ever have them) to spend at least 2 years in the military or other organization before I will pay for their schooling. That isn't to say that they have to join the Navy. The Peace Corps is a perfect alternative, or UNICEF or any other organization that we can agree on. I think it is important for young people to appreciate how hard real life can be before they are given a free ride to college. I can't count the number of people I know (one ex-girlfriend in particular) that have spent years squanering their parents money with nothing to show for it. I don't think anyone should get a free ride in life. How can they appreciate what they have otherwise?
Excellent idea, bad way to approach. Forcing anyone to do anything is down right wrong. That's not to say that you should let them do whatever they want but teach them the same principals in a different manner. You learned to be responsible and organized from your enrollment in the armed forces, others might gain those same characteristics through different means. I have been working since the age of 12 and have never dependend on my parents to pay for anything of mine.

And I am obligated to pay for college? These are my stipulations. Ideally there will be an absolute understanding before that time in their lives. Again, there isn't any such thing as a free lunch...

And I am obligated to pay for college? These are my stipulations. Ideally there will be an absolute understanding before that time in their lives. Again, there isn't any such thing as a free lunch...
As a parent I do believe that you are obliged in ensuring your children are safe and get the best out of life (whether you deem that to be school, money etc). No one is forcing you to raise your children their way. I agree witht what you are trying to do, but I'm opposed to the whole force them to be something.

Show me one post that isn't bashing the US? BTW you can go back to the day you joined AF if you like. And I left it a broad subject for you to find a positive post on the US. But keep it to this one forum.

Happy to oblige,not just a post but an entire thread...


http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=170140&highlight=bam

Too bad that one of the usual gang of naki-haters did his best to piss on it as soon as I posted it. I have always accepted that there will be those who disagree with my opinions on Bush, but it baffles me as to why so many take it so personally.After all, he's hardly the greatest thing since Jesus, even though he thinks he's God.

Valid points all around on this one, with no easy answers. But ....

He was 23 when he joined, and should have known enough to be well informed about several points.

He wanted to take care of his family, and joining the military was a good way to do that; the US Military is a GREAT financial deal for young people - except in wartime.

He joined the airborne infantry. Do you mean to tell me that he had no inkling during his primary training that he may be called upon to fight? You learn to shoot in Army basic within the first 5 or 6 weeks. How about throwing grenades or learning to set claymore mines? Certainly he couldn't have had illusions that these explosive devices would only be used in practice.

I disagree with the current state of affairs in Iraq, and believe the US should get out, and obviously so does he. But it seems that this is a political statement, a protest against the conflict and not necessarily a moral qualm against combat. Again he was 23 when he joined, and apparently in control of his faculties so knew he could be sent to some conflict he didn't agree with. And he says he would defend his unit, so is not unwilling to fight, but only unwilling in certain circumstances.

I'm not impugning this man's character, only commenting on the situation. Simply put, he should have made his case as a conscientious objector LONG before now. He's been in for two years I think the article said.

The Canada/refugee situation. I don't believe Canada should accept him as a refugee. He is fleeing as a direct result of his own actions, not because of a dangerous situation that was caused by outside occurrences[I'm sure that can and will be argued]. He chose to join the military, didn't object until he was about to be sent where he didn't want to go - outside the US [and yes I read that he conscientious objector paperwork was in earlier, but he'd been in for awhile at that point] and now has made the choice to quit the military and flee the country.

I sincerely sympathize with his situation. But he's going about it the wrong way, IMO.