Which dSLR?

New to photography and looking for a dSLR under 2 grand. What should I get and why?

I was thinking the EOS 20D

New to photography and looking for a dSLR under 2 grand. What should I get and why?


In the US it seems that the best deal by far is the Nikkon D70. It offers profesional level stuff at a decent price. The body costs 1000 USD but the best deal is to buy it with the acompaning Nikkor DX lens for an extra 200 USD(thal lens alone will cost over 400).

In the US it seems that the best deal by far is the Nikkon D70. It offers profesional level stuff at a decent price. The body costs 1000 USD but the best deal is to buy it with the acompaning Nikkor DX lens for an extra 200 USD(thal lens alone will cost over 400).
Have you read about or used a 20D? I was thinking... since I'm up to over a grand anyway I might as well just make it close to 2 grand. get a better camera and 8MP.... it will last longer too.... I've had a 2MP Nikon coolpix 2500 for 3 years.... i've out grown it to say the least... this is about the best you can do with it:

http://www.blacklinux.com/hosted/mike/pics/sunset.JPG

Have you read about or used a 20D? I was thinking... since I'm up to over a grand anyway I might as well just make it close to 2 grand. get a better camera and 8MP.... it will last longer too.... I've had a 2MP Nikon coolpix 2500 for 3 years.... i've out grown it to say the least... this is about the best you can do with it:




Sorry but I cannot give you an opinion on the 20D. I've studied only the D70 since i plan to buy one soon and it seems to fit best my finaces and my level of expertise.

I've talked to quite a few photographers and the all recomended the D70 without reserves.

However when I talk to them about Cannon there seems to be a rather dislike for their SLRs among many photographers.


Let me ask around about the 20D to see what they say.

PS. Astonishing picture, you guys get some amazing vistas in Japan.

Sorry but I cannot give you an opinion on the 20D. I've studied only the D70 since i plan to buy one soon and it seems to fit best my finaces and my level of expertise.

I've talked to quite a few photographers and the all recomended the D70 without reserves.

However when I talk to them about Cannon there seems to be a rather dislike for their SLRs among many photographers.


Let me ask around about the 20D to see what they say.

PS. Astonishing picture, you guys get some amazing vistas in Japan.
I have heard the same about the digital rebel but never on any of there good cameras. This camera just came out a few weeks ago so I don't think very many people have experience with it....
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos20d/
about that picture.... it's completely untouched. it's a shame I didn't take it at full resolution.

It seems like a good camera.

Lets take a look at some specs:

the Nikon uses a 6.24 megapixel CCD with a 23.7 x 15.6 mm size

the cannon uses a 8.2 megapixel CMOS size 22.5 x 15.0 mm

the nikkon's lower rezolution combined with the slighty bigger sensor should mean that it has larger sensor sites thefore each can capture more photons.

however looking at the specs it looks like the Cannon has a larger ISO range. Might be due to the differences between sensor tech.

shutter speeds seem to be identical and same goes for their selection.

the cannon seems also a bit faster with 5fps vs the nikkons 3fps which is surprising considering that this is normally a nikkon advantage

It seems like a good camera.

Lets take a look at some specs:

the Nikon uses a 6.24 megapixel CCD with a 23.7 x 15.6 mm size

the cannon uses a 8.2 megapixel CMOS size 22.5 x 15.0 mm

the nikkon's lower rezolution combined with the slighty bigger sensor should mean that it has larger sensor sites thefore each can capture more photons.

however looking at the specs it looks like the Cannon has a larger ISO range. Might be due to the differences between sensor tech.

shutter speeds seem to be identical and same goes for their selection.

the cannon seems also a bit faster with 5fps vs the nikkons 3fps which is surprising considering that this is normally a nikkon advantage

forgive me if this sounds horribly dumb because i've pretty uneducated about this but... i heard that CMOS sensors are less prone to dust problems than CCD's. and CCD's produce better quality images. But is there some new type of CMOS that is good in quality???? Basicly.... someone PLEASE school me. CMOS vs. CCD?

forgive me if this sounds horribly dumb because i've pretty uneducated about this but... i heard that CMOS sensors are less prone to dust problems than CCD's. and CCD's produce better quality images. But is there some new type of CMOS that is good in quality???? Basicly.... someone PLEASE school me. CMOS vs. CCD?

This article is pretty good at explaining that:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D30/D30A4.HTM

and I'm not the an expert myself just another computer geek that wants to play with digital photography.

Very interesting. I'm still not sure where to put my money.

Very interesting. I'm still not sure where to put my money.


BTW it seems that for 1599 you get a lens too with the 20D not just the body:

http://www.ritzcamera.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=13177251&location=CNRCPR&storeId=10001&processRequest=10002&cm_ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpreview.com%2Freviews%2Fc anoneos20d%2F&tmlpse=true&prp=541167425&langId=-1&catalogId=10001

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=A0399222&cs=19&c=us&l=en


And the D70 is 1199 after rebate with the lens.
http://www.ritzcamera.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=13129501&location=CNRCPR&storeId=10001&processRequest=10002&cm_ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpreview.com%2Freviews%2Fs pecs%2FNikon%2Fnikon_d70.asp&tmlpse=true&prp=541538922&langId=-1&catalogId=10001


Now the question is are the extra specs like higher rez, faster motor and more iso range worth the 400$ difference?

In my case I would probably say no since at my level even the D70 has more features that i would know what to do with.

BTW it seems that for 1599 you get a lens too with the 20D not just the body:

http://www.ritzcamera.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=13177251&location=CNRCPR&storeId=10001&processRequest=10002&cm_ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpreview.com%2Freviews%2Fc anoneos20d%2F&tmlpse=true&prp=541167425&langId=-1&catalogId=10001

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=A0399222&cs=19&c=us&l=en


And the D70 is 1199 after rebate with the lens.
http://www.ritzcamera.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=13129501&location=CNRCPR&storeId=10001&processRequest=10002&cm_ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpreview.com%2Freviews%2Fs pecs%2FNikon%2Fnikon_d70.asp&tmlpse=true&prp=541538922&langId=-1&catalogId=10001


Now the question is are the extra specs like higher rez, faster motor and more iso range worth the 400$ difference?

In my case I would probably say no since at my level even the D70 has more features that i would know what to do with.
Reguardless of cost do you think the 20D is a better camera? My main concern is image quality. Speed is also a concern but the D70 seemed blazing fast to me so.... it's not really an issue at this level. Build quality is very imporant too. A metal body is a plus.

Do you think there will be a Nikon response to the 20D? and when? Another issue I'm concerned about is being stuck with a family of lenses. You get jailed in to one manufacturer. Why can't they make an SLR lens standard?

Get the 20D.


There is no comparison between it the and the D70, its a totaly new generation, with not only more Mp and faster speed, also a MUCH greaty dynamic range (i.e. captures more light with out under or over exposing) and will produce noticalby less noise.

It is in every sense of the word a Proffesional camera, and any pro who claims the Nikon is better is simply displaying brand loyality prbobly because they have been shooting Nikon film cameras since they started.
(and Nikon make some VERY good pro SLR film cameras, but they are still a little behind with Digital).

Quite simply Canon are the market leader when it comes to Digital cameras, thier 1d series of Profesional SLRs are untouched by any other manufactor and the 20d and 300d (rebel) both came from the 1d family tree.

The 300d is an excellent beginners DSLR, and has an impressibe dynamic range and is very useable at even high ISO levels.
Unforunatly it lacks things like mirrior lock up and dosnt focus as quickly as the 20d.
There is a firmware hack which gives it mirror lock up and another higher ISO level, but it alters some of the menu functions.

The only problem with an SLR is you also have to buy lens, and good quality lens will cost you as much as the camera, several times more for the top quality proffesional stuff.

I know if I had $2,000 to spend I would get the 300d (rebel) and two fast lens, something in the 100-300 range and something in the 35-70 range, prehaps a 100-300 zoom and fixed 50mm.
Then I would get all the other little accesories you are going to need.

A neck strap, spare battery (at least one) and because you will now be shooting RAW and JPEG together at least one 1gb high speed CF card, preferable two.
And don't forget a high quality case or carry bad that fit all your lens's and extra gear.

After all of that I doubt there would be any change left over from $2,000.

Well as Mopiee said the 20D is a new generation camera so it should be better. But I was wondering the same thing: if Nikkon has an asnwer ready to it.

Btw one impression that I've got from the photographers was that they respect and aknowledge the features that Cannon's bring but they trust more Nikkor to be more "dependable". Something along the lines of Cannon being the bmw m5 full of gadgets and the Nikkon being the pure mechanical porsche GT3RS.


Also correct me if i'm wrong moppie but my impression was that Nikkon's lens mount is supported by many more 3rd party lens manufacturers than the cannon mounts. That would give you more lens options for the Nikkon.

Also correct me if i'm wrong moppie but my impression was that Nikkon's lens mount is supported by many more 3rd party lens manufacturers than the cannon mounts. That would give you more lens options for the Nikkon.



Im actualy not sure, I know you can get adaptors that allow most lens types to be used on most cameras (although you can lose things like autofocus and some of the tracking ablities on more expensive lens) but I do know that Canon makes some of the best lens avliable, and there are a variety of aftermarket manufactors who surport them. Sigma seems to be very popular.
The 20d and 300d also have whats called an EF-S mount, which accepts a new range of lens from canon which fit deeper into the body than a traditional SLR lens, and make up for the focal length multiplier effect you get from having a digital sensor that is smaller than 35mm film. I think the 300d has a 1.6x mulitiplier for the focal length when a tradional lens is used.
It also puts the end of the lens much much closer to the sensor, which aprently gives much sharper photos, I know the 50mm kit lens that come with the 300d is regarded as one of the sharpest lens avliable, despite being made of plastic and being quite cheap in construction.



And I can't see how having more control can ever be a bad thing, I frequent a very big canon forum, and there is hardly ever any mention of technical problems with any canon camera. The only ones that show up often are on cameras that have been used well beyong thier designed limits, like taking over 300,000 photos on a basic cheap point and shoot.

And I can't see how having more control can ever be a bad thing, I frequent a very big canon forum, and there is hardly ever any mention of technical problems with any canon camera. The only ones that show up often are on cameras that have been used well beyong thier designed limits, like taking over 300,000 photos on a basic cheap point and shoot.


I never meant to sound like I was saying cannons are unreliable. They would not hold their current market spot if they were crappy. The reason probably why some pro don't prefer them is because they seem much more eager to jump into new technologies (eg. cmos over ccd). To us that might not be an issue but when you have a pro who has worked with a system for years, a system that served him just fine, he'll be slow to open up to new things.

This is why probably many prefer the "old school" tried and true aproach of nikkon. Or it could be that it was a statistical anomally for me to speak with only nikkon fan photographers. Its not like I made a study of thousands, I just talked to a few.

Its not like I made a study of thousands, I just talked to a few.


I know, most of the pro's Iv talked to have all been canon users.

I think a lot of it comes from Canon being the first into the market with pro series DSLR cameras, and now the first with a semi pro DSLR (the 300d).


I think there is a lot of brand loyality between Canon and Nikon users, similar to GM vs Ford owners. It goes back to the days of film cameras when the film used was more important than the camera used and Nikon and Canon made pretty equal quality cameras.
The advent of Digital has chagned that somewhat, the old attitudes remain the same, but technology has changed.

I'm thinking the 20D but by the time I save up for it maybe nikon will have a response so....

it maybe nikon will have a response so....

the canon will still be better :grinyes:


Have a look at www.dpreview.com for some really good comparisons and reviews.
Although read it like a car mag, they like to give good reviews as they get free cameras to play with.

Have a look at www.dpreview.com for some really good comparisons and reviews.
how do you think i survive 8 hours at work :grinyes:

how do you think i survive 8 hours at work :grinyes:

LOL!!

Of note, they compare every comera to a Canon, and they generaly rate the canons the best in terms of image quality.

For example they think the D70 has more functions and is more customisable, etc etc, but the 300d produces crisper images with much less noise at high ISO and no noise at 100ISO.
(as far as I know all of the compliants about the 300d can be fixed by the firmware hack, or my buying a used 10d or new 20d).

LOL!!

Of note, they compare every comera to a Canon, and they generaly rate the canons the best in terms of image quality.

For example they think the D70 has more functions and is more customisable, etc etc, but the 300d produces crisper images with much less noise at high ISO and no noise at 100ISO.
(as far as I know all of the compliants about the 300d can be fixed by the firmware hack, or my buying a used 10d or new 20d).
When you take a picture at a less than actual resolution what happens? A/B?
http://blacklinux.com/pages/public/cars/skyline/new/CMOS.bmp
which pixels are used on the sensor? a central rectangle of the actual resolution even though it's lower than the whole sensor resolution or.... B?

If it were A wouldn't that change the relative dimensions of the whole optic system?

But if it were B? then if there are multiple incriments lower than the actual resolution then the actual scale/ratio would be inacurate? Does anyone know for sure?

I would chose the Nikon D70. I got one from Best Buy and I love it. I would not get one off the internet because I have read on other forums that you take the risk of geting a black market camera or one that has no warranty (if that is important to you). I spent 1,600 for the camera, lens, bag, several memory cards, etc.. the whole kit and a 4 year warranty with free cleanings and battery replacements. I have been using the Nikon D70 for several months and I absolutely love it. I would concider myself a amature photographer and I still have not used the camera to its full capacity. There are so many custom setings you can use on the nikon D70, as well as great preset choices. here are some of the pics I have taken with it so far. However they are reduced in size and clearity so they can fit on here!!
1
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/243576resize.jpg
2
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/243576resize_praying_mantis-med.jpg
3
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/243576Resize_flower2-med.jpg
4
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/243576Resize_Grass_Hopper-med.jpg
5
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/243576Resize_Flower-med.jpg

[sorry if this point has already been made, but i'm in an expensive cyber cafe so only read the 1st page.]

if you've going to get serious about photography, you aren't buying a camera; you're buying a system. i.e. lenses and accessories. chances are you're going to be using the lenses for then next few decades but you're going to be replacing the camera body (upgrading) in a few years time.

there are many pro's and con's for each camera system, but unless you try them out for yourself, you're not going to know which you prefer / does the job best.

my advice would be to get to a photo shop where they have them both and try them out. but one thing to remember - the lens supplied with a kit it's always of the best quality or best suited to the camera / what you are going to be using it for.

hth,
jules.

I shot both the D70 and the 20D today side by side and holy shit... if you think the D70 is a better camera you're wrong. wrong. simple as that. The 20D is faster and takes MUCH better pictures than the D70. I'm sold. Hopefully nothing new comes out to confuse me within the next two months so I can just save and get my 20D. The one thing I don't understand about the huge battery pack thing is this... I know it's good for a portrait shot grip but other than that why not just buy a spare battery? The base is just two regular batteries. If it were a GIANT battery that would be cool.... but it's not. it's just a grip and 2 battery slots??? I still cant get over how fucking fast the thing is and the AF is fast as hell too. I could go on and on but you get the point... I'm excited and I'm SOLD! :-) feel like a kid at christmas!

Yay!

Now you know why Canon is simply the best Digital camera manufactor.

Althought that said the D70 is not in the same class as the 20D, its aimed more at the 300d, and might or might not be better, depending on what your looking for.

The Grip is there primeraly for Portriat work, it gives you a shutter button in an easier to use place, and it makes for a handy place to carry two spare batteries.

I doubt anything better will come out in the next few months, but the price should drop, and hopefully more EF-S lens will also come out.

I shot both the D70 and the 20D today side by side and holy shit... if you think the D70 is a better camera you're wrong. wrong. simple as that. The 20D is faster and takes MUCH better pictures than the D70. I'm sold. Hopefully nothing new comes out to confuse me within the next two months so I can just save and get my 20D. The one thing I don't understand about the huge battery pack thing is this... I know it's good for a portrait shot grip but other than that why not just buy a spare battery? The base is just two regular batteries. If it were a GIANT battery that would be cool.... but it's not. it's just a grip and 2 battery slots??? I still cant get over how fucking fast the thing is and the AF is fast as hell too. I could go on and on but you get the point... I'm excited and I'm SOLD! :-) feel like a kid at christmas!


Nooooo.....you fell under the influence of that crazy kiwi moppie :eek:











Just j/k thanks for the info. Now we know which one is better. With all the spec discussion and internet arguments nothing beats actually testing them in real life.

Doh......


my credit card has a mind of it's own.


Item List

DC CANON|EOS 20D 9442A008 (Qty=1,Price=$1,430.95)

Subtotal:$1,430.95
TAX:$.00
Shipping and Handling Charge**:$36.77
Total:$1,467.72


I guess the camera was just taunting me for too damn long. Thanks Newegg! :-) Can't wait to get it.

Doh......


my credit card has a mind of it's own.


Item List

DC CANON|EOS 20D 9442A008 (Qty=1,Price=$1,430.95)

Subtotal:$1,430.95
TAX:$.00
Shipping and Handling Charge**:$36.77
Total:$1,467.72


I guess the camera was just taunting me for too damn long. Thanks Newegg! :-) Can't wait to get it.


sweet, hope you enjoy it. :)

SWEET!

Now did you read the bit about the terriable breaking in process?
Its really really horriable, however if you send the camera straight to me Ill go though it for you.
I should have it back, oh, around this time next year and it will be all set to go with no worries about it working right first time.

I'll even do it for free :)

SWEET!

Now did you read the bit about the terriable breaking in process?
Its really really horriable, however if you send the camera straight to me Ill go though it for you.
I should have it back, oh, around this time next year and it will be all set to go with no worries about it working right first time.

I'll even do it for free :)
sure thing :)

Just need to pick up a few lenses in a few months. the shit lens that it comes with will have to hold me over until i pay off my card (2-3 months I hope).

I'm thinking about getting the EF-S 10-22. it's around 700 bucks.

I can only afford to get one lens at a time and since it comes with an 18-55mm (shitty one at that) I need to go wide and tele but wide is much more imporant to me now.

anyone know of any quality lenses that are comparable to or better than the EF-S 10-22? I'm looking to get as wide as possible, but that doesn't mean shit if it doesn't look good.

If you are in the same dilema that I was.... I've got the 20D now and wow.... all I can say is wow. it's like a mini 1D Mark II. Get it, your credit card will get paid off.... :)

SWEET!!!!!

Now lets see if you know how to use it! :p

sorry to dredge up an old thread but I am looking at upgrading from my little sony dsc-p5 (that has treated me well over the past 4 years) to the cannon EOS 20D.
How have you found this cameras ease of use etc. sample pics?

:)

Iv used several of them now, and they are simply FANTASTIC!

Your DSC will look like an Austin A30 compared to an Ferrari ENZO 20D.
There are only 2 cameras on the market that are better, one is the Canon 1Ds MKII and the other is the 1D MKIIn.

Iv used several of them now, and they are simply FANTASTIC!

Your DSC will look like an Austin A30 compared to an Ferrari ENZO 20D.
There are only 2 cameras on the market that are better, one is the Canon 1Ds MKII and the other is the 1D MKIIn.
well i love my 20D but i must admit... it's for sale. time for a 5D. but it's still a great camera.

sample pics?

:)
It's all in the lenses i'm telling you..... that and uh... the photographer :-)

http://blacklinux.com/hosted/mike/photography-on-the-net/091705/IMG_1579.jpg
http://blacklinux.com/hosted/mike/photography-on-the-net/021605/_MG_6863b.jpg
ISO 1600 performance
http://blacklinux.com/hosted/mike/photography-on-the-net/other/IMG_2488.jpg
my first try at panning.... still learning how to use the camera
http://blacklinux.com/hosted/mike/photography-on-the-net/gymkhana1/_MG_8965c.jpg

there are many more players in the game now though.
20D
5D (full 35mm sensor)
Nikon D200
Canon 350D/Rebel XT

lots of good camera's out there. read up. read for a long time before you do anything. and pay attention to where you put your money in glass. it's a lifetime investment. your camera isn't but the glass should be. do it right the first time.

My friend owns a Canon 20D and he enjoys it. It takes great pics but I prefer to use Nikon since I have a Nikon Coolpix 7900 and Im buying a DSLR from my birthday money. IM plannign on getting the D70s since people say its one of the best out there but I see more people use the Canon 20D. I think what you should do is try some DSLRs out for a little "test drive" and see which one you like the best.

decision made time to save

decision made time to save
so what was it? :-)

Eos 20d :)

I had a play with a 5D and a 12-24mm Sigma the other day.
Talk about WIDE ANGLE! WOW!

guess what I brought today :)

got it with the 18-55mm lens and an A3 canon bubble jet printer. Can't wait till the batterys charged.

I wish I had the money for a dSLR, but I LOVE my film SLR. Yashica FR-II. Great camera, nice solid body.

Mainly what I would want is a full manual mode and a good 1:1 macro lens. So, any recomendations, I'm open.

Im kinda similiar to ^^^. I love my Cannon AE-1 Program (don't know why i have a program, I have never used the dummy feature on it yet...). I've been meaning to post some of my pictures, but they are all around 8x10's, and I dont' have a scanner.... But I am looking for a good digital with a full manual mode and a good macro feature. My mom has an olympus C-720 (i think thats the model number) I like it, but the focus agravates me alot, dosen't like to focus in lower light conditions, and has trouble focusing on the correct subject, and the full manual mode is a pita. I'm not wanting to spend another grand on something for a DSLR, but something a little cheaper.

Sorry for the thread hijack

It depends on how much you want to spend.

What you need is a DSLR, since you already have some Canon glass (I assume the AE-1 is an EF mount) then you can pick up a 350D body only for quite cheap. Certianly not much more than a really good compact.

If you do want a compact then something like the new Canon A620 or S2 IS, has full manual exposure control. olympus also have some nice compacts with manual controls.
But you will still have issues with manual focus, no matter what you get.
The only way to get a non DSLR with a manual focus ring would be to get something like a Canon PRO1 which will cost as much as 350D body anyway, and not be up to the same quality.

That 350D does look good. But, can I use my Sigma 35mm lenses? Or do I have to get new ones? Would I be better off finding a repair shop and a macro lens for my film?

Moppie: I'm not really sure what a "EF" mout entitles, but no, the AE-1 program does not have auto focus if that means anything...

*edit*, just did a little research, and no its not a EF mount, its FD

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/f_camera.html

*edit*, just did a little research, and no its not a EF mount, its FD



Im no expert either, but I know you can get differnt adaptors, but you lose some functinality, like auto focus and apature depending on what lens your fitting to what body.
Each brand has its own standards though.

thanks!