Ukrainian Fight for Democracy
igor@af
11-23-2004, 06:33 PM
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=ukraine&btnG=Search+News
Viktor Yanukovich, current Vice President and a convicted criminal has stolen the election, with support of Putin, and now the Democracy is being threatened. Cities and towns all over Ukraine reject the official election results, doing everything they can to put Yushchenko (who was truly elected by the majority) in office.
Over the course of the campaign, Yushchenko was poisoned and had to be treated in an Austrian hospital, nearly escaping death.
United States is putting diplomatic pressure to ensure Yuschenko gains control, but so far things are looking fuzzy, with the Russian military protecting the criminal Yanukovich.
Viktor Yanukovich, current Vice President and a convicted criminal has stolen the election, with support of Putin, and now the Democracy is being threatened. Cities and towns all over Ukraine reject the official election results, doing everything they can to put Yushchenko (who was truly elected by the majority) in office.
Over the course of the campaign, Yushchenko was poisoned and had to be treated in an Austrian hospital, nearly escaping death.
United States is putting diplomatic pressure to ensure Yuschenko gains control, but so far things are looking fuzzy, with the Russian military protecting the criminal Yanukovich.
Gotti
11-23-2004, 07:00 PM
and i bet this isnt just happening in the Ukraine but in all ex-communist countries... they just havent bin caught in the others
whenever i go back to poland to visit family, all they talk about is how the government is run by gangsters, and how they dont have control over whats going on in the country, how the government is stealing so much money, it goes on and on
And everybody i've talked to doesnt like the president (Aleksander Kwaszniewski)(sp)
whenever i go back to poland to visit family, all they talk about is how the government is run by gangsters, and how they dont have control over whats going on in the country, how the government is stealing so much money, it goes on and on
And everybody i've talked to doesnt like the president (Aleksander Kwaszniewski)(sp)
Rbraczyk
11-23-2004, 07:21 PM
^that reminds me, I should get in contact with my family over there. I want to visit them, and see what its like living in poland now. What was it like when you were there?
Gotti
11-23-2004, 11:02 PM
^that reminds me, I should get in contact with my family over there. I want to visit them, and see what its like living in poland now. What was it like when you were there?
i go back almost every year cause my sister an most of my family lives there... Its gettin better, but its still ghetto. Theres no jobs, so people take whatever they can get. Most people have to try to live off of like $250 a month. So crimes worse than communist times, but its getting alot better. The governments really corrupt and alot of shit is run by mafia. Its basically like Russia.. Russias a bit worse off tho
So living there aint that cool... but visiting is sick. I always have the crazyest times. It's like i have a vodka I.V. when i go there haha The clubs are craaaazy too, theres alotta sexy polish girls with big titties :D
Its pretty modern now... so visiting is like visiting any other european country. They like alotta popular american music like eminem/usher/rkelly/jayz but they're mostly into that Techno shit.
are you a recent immigrant or you just have polish blood? cause theres alotta history in Poland too if you havent been there, alotta shit worth seeing cause some cities are a 1000 years old.
even if you dont speak polish you'll have a crazy time at bars and shit cause every girl speaks a little english, and they love americans. Poland doesnt hate on america like some gay european countries like France and Germany :D
i go back almost every year cause my sister an most of my family lives there... Its gettin better, but its still ghetto. Theres no jobs, so people take whatever they can get. Most people have to try to live off of like $250 a month. So crimes worse than communist times, but its getting alot better. The governments really corrupt and alot of shit is run by mafia. Its basically like Russia.. Russias a bit worse off tho
So living there aint that cool... but visiting is sick. I always have the crazyest times. It's like i have a vodka I.V. when i go there haha The clubs are craaaazy too, theres alotta sexy polish girls with big titties :D
Its pretty modern now... so visiting is like visiting any other european country. They like alotta popular american music like eminem/usher/rkelly/jayz but they're mostly into that Techno shit.
are you a recent immigrant or you just have polish blood? cause theres alotta history in Poland too if you havent been there, alotta shit worth seeing cause some cities are a 1000 years old.
even if you dont speak polish you'll have a crazy time at bars and shit cause every girl speaks a little english, and they love americans. Poland doesnt hate on america like some gay european countries like France and Germany :D
YogsVR4
11-24-2004, 09:28 AM
Still dicey.
From what I can tell, both candidates are declaring victory. How is it that Yushchenko 'was truly elected by the majority'? I'm not saying he wasn't or that I don't want him to be, but thats a bold statement without numbers. What I've been reading is that the demands are for a full review which would determine the winner. From all accounts, thats the only way to truely see who won the election.
As for the diplomatic pressure, all I could find was quotes from spokes people.
The White House said it was "deeply disturbed by extensive and credible indications of fraud," according to spokeswoman Claire Buchan.
"We strongly support efforts to review the conduct of the election and urge Ukrainian authorities not to certify results until investigations of organized fraud are resolved," she said
What actual pressure are we bringing to bear? It looks like the EU is the one voicing the threats if a review isn't done. http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4634973,00.html
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From what I can tell, both candidates are declaring victory. How is it that Yushchenko 'was truly elected by the majority'? I'm not saying he wasn't or that I don't want him to be, but thats a bold statement without numbers. What I've been reading is that the demands are for a full review which would determine the winner. From all accounts, thats the only way to truely see who won the election.
As for the diplomatic pressure, all I could find was quotes from spokes people.
The White House said it was "deeply disturbed by extensive and credible indications of fraud," according to spokeswoman Claire Buchan.
"We strongly support efforts to review the conduct of the election and urge Ukrainian authorities not to certify results until investigations of organized fraud are resolved," she said
What actual pressure are we bringing to bear? It looks like the EU is the one voicing the threats if a review isn't done. http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4634973,00.html
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igor@af
11-24-2004, 06:10 PM
You supporting Bush... sure... whatever, but "still dicey" ?
---------------------------
The Washington Post
The New Iron Curtain
By Anne Applebaum
Wednesday, November 24, 2004
Before the election, the government mobilized groups of thugs to harass voters. On the day of the election, police prevented thousands of opposition activists from voting at all. Nevertheless, when the votes were counted, it was clear that the opposition had won by a large margin. As a result, the ruling party decided to falsify the result, and declared victory. Immediately, the Russians sent their fraternal congratulations.
No, that was not a description of the presidential election that took place last Sunday in Ukraine. It was a description of the referendum that took place in Soviet-occupied communist Poland in June 1946. Although blatantly falsified, that referendum provided the spurious legitimacy that allowed Poland's Soviet-backed communist leadership to remain in power for the subsequent half-century.
But although that infamous Polish election took place nearly 60 years ago, there are good reasons why descriptions make it sound so much like last weekend in Ukraine. According to the Committee of Civic Voters, a volunteer group with branches all over Ukraine, the techniques haven't changed much in 60 years. In the Sumy region, they record, a member of the electoral commission was beaten up by unidentified thugs. At one polling station, "criminals" disrupted the voting and destroyed the ballot boxes with clubs. In Cherkassy, a polling site inspector was found dead. More "criminals" broke polling station windows and destroyed ballot boxes. In the Zaporozhye region and in Kharkov, observers saw buses transporting voters from one polling station to the next.
There was, in other words, not much that was subtle about the disruption of the election -- no arguments about hanging chads or "secret software" here -- and not much that was surprising about the result. Polls taken before and after the vote showed a large margin of support for Viktor Yushchenko, a pro-Western liberal. Nevertheless, victory has been declared for Viktor Yanukovych, the pro-Moscow candidate. He has already received warm congratulations from the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, who backed him with praise, money and, possibly, some advice on how to steal elections. It can't be a coincidence that if the Ukrainian election is settled in Moscow's favor, it will mark the third such dubious vote in Russia's "sphere of influence" in the past two months, following the polls in Belarus and the separatist province of Abkhazia, not counting the irregularities that were belatedly uncovered in the election of Putin himself.
All of these places do, it is true, seem obscure and faraway to Americans. But so did the events 60 years ago in Poland, at least until it became clear that they were part of a pattern: 1946 was also the year that Winston Churchill gave his celebrated speech describing the "iron curtain" that had descended across Europe, and predicting the onset of the Cold War. Looking back, we may also one day see 2004 as the year when a new iron curtain descended across Europe, dividing the continent not through the center of Germany but along the eastern Polish border. To the West, the democracies of Western and Central Europe will remain more or less stable members of the European Union and NATO. To the east, Russia will control the "managed democracies" of the former U.S.S.R., keeping the media muzzled, elections massaged and the economies in thrall to a handful of mostly Russian billionaires. Using primarily economic means -- control over oil pipelines, corrupt investment funds, shady companies -- the Russians may even, like their Soviet predecessors, begin to work at undermining Western stability.
This is not an inevitable scenario. Russia is not the Soviet Union, and 2004 is not 1946. Ukraine is neither as turbulent, nor as violent, nor as physically cut off from the world as were the Central European states after the Second World War. The Ukrainian opposition put 200,000 protesters on the streets of Kiev yesterday, many of whom are too young to recall Nazi or Soviet totalitarianism, and who haven't experienced the intimidation and fear felt by their parents and grandparents. Most have access to communication and outside information -- through the Internet, satellite television, cell phones -- that would have been unthinkable during the Cold War.
The West, and especially Western Europe, can and should encourage them. To do so is not difficult, but it does require that we understand what is happening, call things by their real names, and drop any of our remaining illusions about President Putin's intentions in former Soviet territories. Beyond that, all that is needed is a promise -- even an implied promise -- that when the specter of this new iron curtain is removed, Ukraine too will be welcomed by the nations on the other side.
---------------------------
The Washington Post
The New Iron Curtain
By Anne Applebaum
Wednesday, November 24, 2004
Before the election, the government mobilized groups of thugs to harass voters. On the day of the election, police prevented thousands of opposition activists from voting at all. Nevertheless, when the votes were counted, it was clear that the opposition had won by a large margin. As a result, the ruling party decided to falsify the result, and declared victory. Immediately, the Russians sent their fraternal congratulations.
No, that was not a description of the presidential election that took place last Sunday in Ukraine. It was a description of the referendum that took place in Soviet-occupied communist Poland in June 1946. Although blatantly falsified, that referendum provided the spurious legitimacy that allowed Poland's Soviet-backed communist leadership to remain in power for the subsequent half-century.
But although that infamous Polish election took place nearly 60 years ago, there are good reasons why descriptions make it sound so much like last weekend in Ukraine. According to the Committee of Civic Voters, a volunteer group with branches all over Ukraine, the techniques haven't changed much in 60 years. In the Sumy region, they record, a member of the electoral commission was beaten up by unidentified thugs. At one polling station, "criminals" disrupted the voting and destroyed the ballot boxes with clubs. In Cherkassy, a polling site inspector was found dead. More "criminals" broke polling station windows and destroyed ballot boxes. In the Zaporozhye region and in Kharkov, observers saw buses transporting voters from one polling station to the next.
There was, in other words, not much that was subtle about the disruption of the election -- no arguments about hanging chads or "secret software" here -- and not much that was surprising about the result. Polls taken before and after the vote showed a large margin of support for Viktor Yushchenko, a pro-Western liberal. Nevertheless, victory has been declared for Viktor Yanukovych, the pro-Moscow candidate. He has already received warm congratulations from the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, who backed him with praise, money and, possibly, some advice on how to steal elections. It can't be a coincidence that if the Ukrainian election is settled in Moscow's favor, it will mark the third such dubious vote in Russia's "sphere of influence" in the past two months, following the polls in Belarus and the separatist province of Abkhazia, not counting the irregularities that were belatedly uncovered in the election of Putin himself.
All of these places do, it is true, seem obscure and faraway to Americans. But so did the events 60 years ago in Poland, at least until it became clear that they were part of a pattern: 1946 was also the year that Winston Churchill gave his celebrated speech describing the "iron curtain" that had descended across Europe, and predicting the onset of the Cold War. Looking back, we may also one day see 2004 as the year when a new iron curtain descended across Europe, dividing the continent not through the center of Germany but along the eastern Polish border. To the West, the democracies of Western and Central Europe will remain more or less stable members of the European Union and NATO. To the east, Russia will control the "managed democracies" of the former U.S.S.R., keeping the media muzzled, elections massaged and the economies in thrall to a handful of mostly Russian billionaires. Using primarily economic means -- control over oil pipelines, corrupt investment funds, shady companies -- the Russians may even, like their Soviet predecessors, begin to work at undermining Western stability.
This is not an inevitable scenario. Russia is not the Soviet Union, and 2004 is not 1946. Ukraine is neither as turbulent, nor as violent, nor as physically cut off from the world as were the Central European states after the Second World War. The Ukrainian opposition put 200,000 protesters on the streets of Kiev yesterday, many of whom are too young to recall Nazi or Soviet totalitarianism, and who haven't experienced the intimidation and fear felt by their parents and grandparents. Most have access to communication and outside information -- through the Internet, satellite television, cell phones -- that would have been unthinkable during the Cold War.
The West, and especially Western Europe, can and should encourage them. To do so is not difficult, but it does require that we understand what is happening, call things by their real names, and drop any of our remaining illusions about President Putin's intentions in former Soviet territories. Beyond that, all that is needed is a promise -- even an implied promise -- that when the specter of this new iron curtain is removed, Ukraine too will be welcomed by the nations on the other side.
Heep
11-24-2004, 09:28 PM
My father just got back from Ukraine. Every male, out of high school, must either pay a $$$$load which most don't have, or must serve a certain amount of time in the military. The military is being required to vote for Yanukovich, so that's basically every recently graduated male voting (likely against their will) for Yanukovych. Every college student has been told that if they vote for Yanukovych, they will excel, and if they do not, they will be failed. Yet again thousands more votes for Yanukovych. Even with all those, from what I've seen and heard, Yuschenko still got the actual majority of the votes, so I think you can figure out what the real Ukrainian sentiment is about the matter...
Will be interesting to see what happens in the next little bit.
Will be interesting to see what happens in the next little bit.
Tehvisseeus
11-24-2004, 10:28 PM
My father just got back from Ukraine. Every male, out of high school, must either pay a $$$$load which most don't have, or must serve a certain amount of time in the military. The military is being required to vote for Yanukovich, so that's basically every recently graduated male voting (likely against their will) for Yanukovych. Every college student has been told that if they vote for Yanukovych, they will excel, and if they do not, they will be failed. Yet again thousands more votes for Yanukovych. Even with all those, from what I've seen and heard, Yuschenko still got the actual majority of the votes, so I think you can figure out what the real Ukrainian sentiment is about the matter...
I'll admit that I know next to nothing about Ukrainian elections, but don't they have a blind vote?
I'll admit that I know next to nothing about Ukrainian elections, but don't they have a blind vote?
YogsVR4
11-25-2004, 08:45 AM
You supporting Bush... sure... whatever, but "still dicey" ?
I think you misunderstood my intent. I was referring to the situation over there. Its dicey. i.e. Dangerous, precarious, hazardous.
I also don’t understand what Bush or my support for him has to do with this. All I asked what the diplomatic pressure was. I only found articles discussing the EU making threatening remarks and asked for some numbers to back up the claims made in the article.
I also don’t dispute that Yushchenko probably won the election – all I ask for is a link that shows some data on how that conclusion is supported.
I see the claims of electoral fraud and intimidation and if anything, that should invalidate the election and it should be held over again (as Yushchenko suggested) with more observers.
So again, don’t misunderstand me, I’m just looking for information, not an argument.
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I think you misunderstood my intent. I was referring to the situation over there. Its dicey. i.e. Dangerous, precarious, hazardous.
I also don’t understand what Bush or my support for him has to do with this. All I asked what the diplomatic pressure was. I only found articles discussing the EU making threatening remarks and asked for some numbers to back up the claims made in the article.
I also don’t dispute that Yushchenko probably won the election – all I ask for is a link that shows some data on how that conclusion is supported.
I see the claims of electoral fraud and intimidation and if anything, that should invalidate the election and it should be held over again (as Yushchenko suggested) with more observers.
So again, don’t misunderstand me, I’m just looking for information, not an argument.
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Rbraczyk
11-29-2004, 06:27 PM
Yea, I'm third Gen Polish, and second gen German. 75% Polish, 25% german. My dad's side is pure Pole. I want to visit and see things, but its also about those Polish girls, daaaaaamn, Sry to get off topic.
Gotti
11-30-2004, 12:15 AM
now i hear that yushchenko was poisoned... thats why he looks so old now
most likely... in 2 monthes he went from middle age to old looking
rbraczyk: yeah so many of'em got big tits... and they keep their bodies tight
most likely... in 2 monthes he went from middle age to old looking
rbraczyk: yeah so many of'em got big tits... and they keep their bodies tight
-Josh-
11-30-2004, 06:08 PM
Good for the Ukrainians... They were probably afraid the Americans might go over there and try to help them, so they decided to hurry up and do it themselves....
Heep
12-02-2004, 10:26 AM
Just got an e-mail from an Ukrainian family friend, with some pictures he'd taken of the protests. It's really quite incredible, millions of heads stretching in every conceivable direction, packed into city squares, standing out in the cold and snow to show their disapproval...
Heep
12-05-2004, 07:49 AM
The Ukrainian courts have announced a re-election now, BTW...
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