New American Musclecars - Mustang v SRT-4

which one? Were talking 05 mustang GT and 05 SRT-4.

mustang, hands down!

What about the GTO?

The Mustang. The Srt-4 isn't much of a muscle car. The GTO vs. Mustang would be a good race there 0-60 times are about the same. The GTO needs some tweeking though Pontiac was in such a hury to get it out it still has the same supension that it had in Australia were it came from, made for rough roads.

Srt4? american muscle? thats not american muscle, thats Japanese inspired turbo...ummm yeah Stang all the way hands down no contest...and I would take it over the GTO, which if I remember correctly is being redesigned...wait till the charger comes out... Mustang vs GTO vs Charger....if I was old id get nostalgic

Srt4? american muscle? thats not american muscle, thats Japanese inspired turbo...

You fail to realize that Chrysler/Dodge have a past with their cars and turbos. But I do agree that it is not american muscle. People throw the term muscle around more loosely than it should be. Muscle is becoming less prevalent as the years go by, and when people try an tag an SRT-4 as a muscle car........ridiculous.

When I think American Muscle I think of big V8s and the Mustang GT fits into that category, as does the GTO. The SRT4, while a very good car, is still a turbo 4, and when I think of turbo 4s, I think Japanese rally cars like the EVO and STi, especially since they are all modified versions of other cars.

Anyway, I'd take the Mustang.

I think the GTO would be the better fit for now.. and while the numbers are almost similar, I think the GTO outclasses the Mustang.. Not to mention, the cars compared were with 04' GTO.. Doesnt the 05' Come with the LS2 beefing it up? Mmmmm...

Yes, the '05 GTO gets the new 6.0L LS2 V8 as well as new front and rear fascias, a new decklid spoiler, and hoodscoops.

Srt4? american muscle? thats not american muscle, thats Japanese inspired turbo...ummm yeah Stang all the way hands down no contest...and I would take it over the GTO, which if I remember correctly is being redesigned...wait till the charger comes out... Mustang vs GTO vs Charger....if I was old id get nostalgic

I thought I saw a picture of the Charger concept isn't it a four door?

The Mustang is not a muscle car; it's a personal coupe. The GTO, however, is. The definition of a muscle car includes three parameters: midsize coupe, V8 power, and rear-wheel-drive. The Mustang definitely isn't midsize, and the SRT-4 doesn't meet any of the requirements.

The Mustang is not a muscle car; it's a personal coupe. The GTO, however, is. The definition of a muscle car includes three parameters: midsize coupe, V8 power, and rear-wheel-drive. The Mustang definitely isn't midsize, and the SRT-4 doesn't meet any of the requirements.

What thats one of the craziest things i've heard unless your refering to pony car. It's just barely 2" sorter than the GTO.

The Mustang is not a muscle car; it's a personal coupe. The GTO, however, is. The definition of a muscle car includes three parameters: midsize coupe, V8 power, and rear-wheel-drive. The Mustang definitely isn't midsize, and the SRT-4 doesn't meet any of the requirements.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Mustang considered to be the first muscle car, and therefore set the definition of a muscle car?

What thats one of the craziest things i've heard unless your refering to pony car. It's just barely 2" sorter than the GTO.

Wether or not something is a muscle car or not is really becoming a "blurry grey area" kind of debate. Technically, and you allude to it in your post, the Mustang is a pony-car and not a muscle car. Technically speaking, a muscle car is a mid-sized 2-door with room for four. The pony car is a true 2+2 American GT.....basically an evolution of a sports car with a bit more size, a little more plushness, and a back seat.

Back, in the day (60's,70's) these ideas held more water than they do now, even though cars pushed the limits even way back when. The Hemi-Cuda is a good example of this as is the 71-73 Mustang. Technically these really were pony-cars as even in these "extra-large" versions they were still just big American GT's. However, they were both big enough that people commonly referred to them as muscle cars even back then, especially the Hemi-Cuda.

As for the new Mustang, it is about as pure a pony-car as can be done. The GTO and the Mustanbg are now strikingly close in size, but that has more to do with the new Goat being much, much smaller than it's ancestors than the Mustang being bigger. The new pony has a wheelbase about one inch shorter and an overall length about five inches longer (5mph bumpers cause better than half of this) than the 60's versions.

The Goat is just plain smaller than the old versions. And, in truth it is smaller than the 67-68 Cougar that was considered a popny-car back in the day!

Back to topic now. As for the debate I would pick the new Mustang wether or not this was about what really constitutes "muscle". The GTO is a bit overpriced msrp-wise and big rebates now offered to clear out unsold 04's do not instill confidence in me that the Goat will be worrth much years from now. Even with the dicount the Mustang GT is cheaper, faster, and according to every review I have seen much better handling! (I am driving both of these this weekend so I ge to choose for myself soon enough)

I think the GTO would be the better fit for now.. and while the numbers are almost similar, I think the GTO outclasses the Mustang.. Not to mention, the cars compared were with 04' GTO.. Doesnt the 05' Come with the LS2 beefing it up? Mmmmm...

The 05 GTO does indeed come with the LS2 and some other tidbits. However, these tidbits come at a price (at least 1500 dollars) on a car that has been accused of being over-priced already. Do not get me wrong I would rather fork over 35 grand for a 400hp LS2 powered Goat than 33 large for a 350hp Goat. But, in truth it should be more like 400hp for 32-33 grand. GM is not really fixing the price issue, it just wont be as bad.

The other major complaint has been that the 04 GTO is suprisingly slow for 350hp. The main reason is likely that this is one porky puppy and GM is offering no fix for this other than a 400hp infusion. I am not certain that sticking a 400hp motor in an overweight/over-priced car and asking a decent bit more money for it is a good solution to their problem.

The 05 Mustang GT is a faster car than the 04 GTO from what we know now, and the Mustang just came out. No doubt people will get better times as the new Mustangs break in and folks learn to drive them. And, live axle or not, the Mustang turns in much better skidpad and slalom numbers than the Goat does as well.

The Goat offers a softer ride, and a bit more interior room for a whole lot more money (without GM rebates there is 7k dollars worth of difference, with them there is still 3k difference)

If the LS2 makes the Goat faster than the GT it will be just barely. As GTO's cannot get out of the mid 13's stock on a perfect day with a perfect driver. with 35-hp. At best 50hp gives you a half a second down the 1/4 mile, and the LS2 gives up some low-end torque to the LS1 to make that extra 50 ponies so to expect all of that half-second is a glass half-full viewpoint for sure.

A couple of private owners have already reported running lower than 13.5's in their new Mustang GT's, a number which will get at least a little lower with time. Even Motor Trend has reported a 13.6 second et from the auto shifted GT! I say look for the same very low 13's Mach-1 turns when the car is fully sorted out.

The GTO is a nice car, but it offers nowhere near the value per dollar the Mustang does.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Mustang considered to be the first muscle car, and therefore set the definition of a muscle car?

No, the Mustang was a pony car not a muscle car. Also it wasn't the first pony car either. The Plymouth Barracuda beat the Mustang by one week to market.

Neither car is a traditional muscle car though the Mustang is a FAR closer fit than the SRT-4. The SRT-4 fits none of the criteria.

The 05 Mustang GT is a faster car than the 04 GTO

No it's not: http://www.ot2.cupofnoodles.com/trishield/04goat_vs_05stang.wmv

No it's not: http://www.ot2.cupofnoodles.com/trishield/04goat_vs_05stang.wmv


You know I appreciate the effort you show, but you might want to do some research first before you refute someone else's statement rather than just post a link to a vid you saw somewhere. Why do I say this?

First, that video is old news. Second it would appear that the only thing you know about this video is that it is a video. That GTO is NOT STOCK. I can only assume that since you present this as evidence that the GTO is faster than an 05 Mustang GT you were unaware of this.

Since research would not appear to be your strong suit I will give you a quick rundown of some of the mods the GTO has. Headers, what amounts to a cat-back exhaust upgrade, Diablo tuner, cold-air/ram-air induction, and various ignition upgrades. And while it is still uncomfirmed, many who claim to have seen this race also say he was running drag radials. All of the other mods I cited are mods listed by the owner on his site!

And, just to let you know those engine/exhaust mods are easily worth 50hp assuming everything is quality stuff. Even without the drag radials 50hp makes just a bit of a difference in acceleration, and essentially makes this vid useless as an indication of wether the 04 GTO is faster than an 05 Mustang GT.

However, I will tell you what is not useless. To my knowledge no owner, anywhere has ever claimed to have run the 1/4 mile faster than a 13.4 in a stock GTO. And, I have searched to the end of the earth to find somebody who has. It is also worth mentioning that even that 13.4 claim is an oddball, as it is the sole stock GTO time I have heard of better than a 13.6. As a matter of fact the modded GTO in the vid only ran a 13.4 and change! Most GTO's run low 14's to high 13's stock. Also note that even with the mods over the first 60ft the Mustang GT left that Goat like it was tied down.

An automatic Mustang GT has already run a documented 13.6 second 1/4-mile and a manual has run a 13.8 that I know of. Some owners claim to have already run low 13's, although much like that supposed "miracle" 13.4 second time a new Goat supposedly posted I cannot confirm this.

What is it with newbies?

I've read a few articles saying the 'Stang is faster then the GTO, including the most recent Car and Driver in which they claimed 0-60 in 5.2 and 1/4 mile in 13.8, both are faster then their claims on the GTO, which were 5.3/14.0. The Mustang is faster then the GTO, at least the pre-LS2 models, and possibly even afterward. Which in my book is pretty good considering the GTO costs about $7,000 more...

Yeah that video of the GTO probably had a few simple modifications to give it the edge on the GT. I'm still rather impressed by the times an auto GT is putting out. Lets not forget that horsepower is not the only thing that accounts for acceleration. The GTO's curb weight is close to 300lbs over the GT's, accompanied by a wider final drive ratio (3.46 GTO, 3.55 GT). I'm not exactly sure on their drag, but it would also make a difference at speed. When you consider that both cars are still equally quick, which car is the better? I guess that is just up to which we like more. :grinno: Damned our human minds for being so irrational!! Can we every come to terms on anything!?!? :dunno:

As a matter of fact the modded GTO in the vid only ran a 13.4 and change!

No the GTO in the video ran 13.59 the Mustang ran 14.04.

I know the GTO in the video has some minor modifications, but since muscle Mustang (http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/features/0407mm_mach/) (and you can’t get much more nonbiased then a Mustang mag) said a stock GTO can run 13.57 I didn’t think it mattered.

If you have some links that show that the Mustang is faster then the GTO feel free to post them.

It's highly possible they under-rated it to avoid competition making their cars faster.

Chrystler/Dodge have been known to do that (*COUGH*SRT4*COUGH*) because if you boast about your real #'s or claim something amazing, your competition will try to one up you *COUGH*EVO*COUGH*.

My .02:

Even though the two cars you listed are by no means muscle cars (especially not the srt4 lol wtf), I'd side with the GT, only because it's RWD, doesn't use forced induction and has the displays of a fast sports car. The SRT-4 is a 4 door mini-sedan that has power windows in the front but not in the rear (really freakin' weird, they could've at least made it all 4 manual windows like the Type R, but not half and half, this isn't freakin' cream for your coffee)

In that video you also have to consider that they said the '05 had only bean out 3 days at the time so the still aren't broken in yet. I liked whatching the GTO try and burn out too. :lol2:

what the hell is the dfference between a pony car and a muscle car. Better yet can someone give me def's for both.

No the GTO in the video ran 13.59 the Mustang ran 14.04.

I know the GTO in the video has some minor modifications, but since muscle Mustang (http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/features/0407mm_mach/) (and you can’t get much more nonbiased then a Mustang mag) said a stock GTO can run 13.57 I didn’t think it mattered.

If you have some links that show that the Mustang is faster then the GTO feel free to post them.


And your point is? Not to mention, minor modifications? That does not do a lot to grant you any credibility in your argument. First it does not make it sound like you have done many mods yourself as simply being a "bolt on" does not make it a "minor mod" in regards to power. And secondly, it would appear you have not spent a whole lot of time at the dragstrip as 50hp can get you about a 1/2 a second in the 1/4 mile assuming you have the traction to do it. A half a second is hardly "minor"

Case in point. There is an 04 Nissan Maxima frequently talked about on this site that occasionally runs high 12's on cheater slicks with almost exactly the same kind of mods and a fifty horse hit of nitrous. You do the math.....that is about a second and a half improvment over what you can expect a stock Maxima to do at best. Considering that drag racing rule of thumb that every 10hp improvement nets you about a tenth in the 1/4 mile this Maxima is about "right" if the other mods add 50hp and you give credit for slicks and the fifty horse shot of nitrous. (As a matter of fact the Maxima is a bit faster than that rule of thumb would suggest).

To take this a bit further a friend of mine has a 91 Toyota Supra which I have driven once or twice and helped him work on occasionally. His list of mods as of about a year ago consisted of a stock Lexus GS300 throttle body, home-made cold-air induction, down pipe, fulle exhaust, and a boost controller. Stock this car was good for what, mid 14's maybe? With those mods the car was good for low-very low 13's on shaved autocross tires. But, they are "minor mods"...lol.

As a matter of fact that car in that trim busted up a stock 02 6-spd Ram Air T/A at the 1/4 one night with me driving (my power-shifting could use work too) Is a stock 91 Supra faster than a Ram Air T/A??? Are you smoking weed??? Hell no. But it only had minor mods so their should be no differnce. In truth with equal drivers his car should NOT take the T/A even with the mods done to it. And I am not the best driver as again, my shifting still has room to improve (but I do tend to launch well). But factor in a little driver error on the T/A's part and........you get the above.

This is not calculus bud. Take away 50hp and what is that Goat in your vid running? Hmmm, same thing the other GTO's there were running that night, high 13's to low 14's. Not to mention as far as my "proof" goes...pick up a magazine. I would rather race "for real" than magazine race, but right now magzine racing is really all we have for these two cars stock for stock. And every mag that has tested these cars says exactly the same thing. The Mustang is faster. This is certainly more reliable than a vid with a GTO that is easily a half second faster than stock, and a Mustang with a driver who cannot drive well and just bought the car!

As for the "cannot drive" comment I made in regards to the Mustang driver, this is another reason I can say with relative certainty you do not make it to the track much. And without doubt, you do not wheel a car down the 1/4 mile very often as that vid was a comedy of errors. Notice the burnout the Mustang drive did. Not only is this pointless unless you are running slicks, it is generally counter-productive on stock radials like he is running as more heat hurts these tires instead of helping them. The GTO driver did a quick, no-smoke spin of the rear tires to clean them off. Somebody here knows their stuff as that is exactly what should be done.

Also notice that while the GTO driver trees the Mustang the pony leaves the Goat like it is tied down until he shifts into second gear. What happened and how can I tell he shifted into second gear? The Mustang missed second gear, that is what happened. And if you cannot tell that from watching the vid you absolutely do not get to the races much.

How can I tell? Look at the front end of the car. Second gear in the pony is lower than most cars so he should really get some lift in the front end when he hits second. Or, if he really knows how to power-shift the front end should simply stay up just like it did through first, and not come down until the top of second gear. What actually happens? The front end goes down and never comes back up. Granted, there are two possible reasons for this. He either missed second gear, or decided to just slow down because he felt like it. Pick the reason you prefer.

As for Muscle Mustangs, when they run an 05 GT I'll shout back at you. But somehow, I'll bet it runs faster than a 13.5X. And, to compare this number to what another mag runs is pointless as they do not all drive the same or have the same abilities. As for bias I would say that the bias against the Mustang is far greater than Mustang owner bias against other cars. Hard-core Mustang owners who race and mod their cars (not the wannabes) may not like other cars, but generally give credit for whatever performance those cars possess in my experience. A good example IMHO is the last of the Ram Air F-bodies. not my favorite car but damn fast no matter how you slice it. Those who hate Mustangs often just seem to want to discredit the car with no regard to common sense or accuracy. Take your posts for example. ;)

No the GTO in the video ran 13.59 the Mustang ran 14.04.

I know the GTO in the video has some minor modifications, but since muscle Mustang (http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/features/0407mm_mach/) (and you can’t get much more nonbiased then a Mustang mag) said a stock GTO can run 13.57 I didn’t think it mattered.

If you have some links that show that the Mustang is faster then the GTO feel free to post them.

Just some friendly advice to a newbie. When you actually know what you are talking about, you are not so dependent on links to make your case. With real knowledge you can dicuss and dissect information you find or are presented, instead of simply regurgitating it. A real knowledge of a subject is difficult to fake in every field, but especially this one.

When you really KNOW, it shows.

I agree... when you think american muscle...you think rumbling V8's, not 4 cylinders and a turbo spooling up...Mustang.

when muscle cars first came out they werent "sporty" cars, they were every day coupes with big friggin engines. (ford galaxy, torinos and fairlane and just about every chevy) the mustang is a sports cars but falls into a subcategpry called pony car (basically the mustang is like a combination of a sports car i.e. corvette or tbird and a muscle car) anyways the mustang is hands down the victor (against the srt and gto) and if you havent seen one in person you should, the quality is (dare i say it) good enough to make import guys happy.

also theres hasnt been a real muscle car since the 70's and never will again.

I would say the Mercury Maraduer is the closest thing to the original muscle cars it's big with a powerful v8 engine but that engine could be a little bigger or maybe the same platform with two doors.

Just my :2cents:

ok guys thanks. Btw Car and Driver just did a comparo of the GTO vs. Mustang GT. The Stang won, as expected.