Ford got it right with the 05 Mustang!!!!

I've been reading a lot of threads about what to do and how a new Camaro should look like if GM ever decide to bring them back.
Well, they should follow in the Ford steps....No no no no no don't get me wrong. You see, Ford wanted to accomplish the same feel and look of the 60's Mustang and they succeded. They got it right this mustang is still "the secretary car" that was back in the days. I have seen the outside only but my guess is that you can find a coffee maker and a note pad inside this freaking cars.
GM should keep the same feel and look of this (camaro) great sport car. I love the first generation Camaros but in my point of view this is a sport car not a muscle car.
Muscle car would be like the Chevelle, Mopar and GTO.
I'm still working on a sketch to give the new Camaro a new life...well this is inside my mind!!!!!!!
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/253357Dscn23251-med.jpg

I agree. The new mustangs capture the feel of the first generation ponies. Chevy should do the same.

Well, let's hope you're right! We, the non-Ford people, would whole-heartedly welcome another reskinned Falcon... That's ALL the original Rustang was. For those that really believed Mustang was unique and performance-oriented, sorry to disappoint you.
We old guys, in the car biz, also salute them for harping on "retro". Go ahead. relive the "good ol' days" (they weren't all that good, Viet Nam, inflation, etc.). The modern GTO and the yet-to-be-released Dodge Charger are modern cars, not relying on past glory to make a sales pitch. And, BTW, the '05 GTO goes 13.20s. Still no blower... The new Chevelle? Well, the SS will be just like the original SSs. A wannabe GTO... Imitation IS the most sincere form of flattery.

Well, let's hope you're right! We, the non-Ford people, would whole-heartedly welcome another reskinned Falcon... That's ALL the original Rustang was. For those that really believed Mustang was unique and performance-oriented, sorry to disappoint you.
We old guys, in the car biz, also salute them for harping on "retro". Go ahead. relive the "good ol' days" (they weren't all that good, Viet Nam, inflation, etc.). The modern GTO and the yet-to-be-released Dodge Charger are modern cars, not relying on past glory to make a sales pitch. And, BTW, the '05 GTO goes 13.20s. Still no blower... The new Chevelle? Well, the SS will be just like the original SSs. A wannabe GTO... Imitation IS the most sincere form of flattery.
If the Mustang was so bad, how did it sell millions more than the Camaro?
Seriously, the Mustang had (still has) a really terrific overall package and combination of features. The 60's and the latest Mustangs still have this.........the looks, the performance, the appeal and most of all......a price that is bang-on target.
This is what Chevy must do for the Camaro.

As an example, the market is going ape for the new Mustang......even Car and Driver says it's (very slightly) better than the GTO, because it performs as almost as well as the GTO, it looks better and most of all, its $5000 cheaper. Personally, I like the GTO better................but the GTO has been a disaster in the market this past year. Therefore, the Mustang is a more successful car.

Regardless of how you feel about the Mustang, GM should learn from its success and build the right Camaro and not another GTO. It did so in 1967 and can do so again now.

I never said they were bad. They just weren't "giant killers" as many believe. My brother is a HARDCORE Mustang freak. He owns about 6, including a '65 K-code, a '79 King Cobra (he bought it new) and a '99 Cobra. His son has a Bullet and a '66. The King Cobra has one of my engines in it now, and runs better than it EVER did before. When they came to visit last year, they drove the Bullet. They wanted NOTHING to do with a stock '68 GTO we had just finished. My nephew was quite impressed, too, this being his first "up close and personal" encounter with an old Goat.
There are a few reasons they sold as many as they did, aside from "quality". The market was hungry and Ford beat GM to the punch. Of course, nobody seems to have noticed, Barracuda came out well before Mustang. But the Mustang was tough, cute, fairly quick, and above all, cheap.
Maybe I'm just too old to appreciate "retro"...

car and driver never said it performed as well as the new gto it won because of the styling and the "got to have factor". I will have to say the new stang looks better the the gtos.

nova68,
There's been a lot of talk on the Pontiac boards about the "new" GTO, and what's wong. IMO, what's wrong is, the marketing apporach. A GTO buyer today, is not much different than a GTO buyer from 1964 (first muscle car). Rather than being concerned with what the outside looks like, they are much more concerned with what happens when you hit the "loud pedal". They are also more concerned with what the GTO looks like from the driver's seat. The external appearance is simply along for the ride.
In one of these threads, a Mustang guy was complaining about the looks of the GTO's exhaust. Now, THAT'S a legitimate complaint, as that's the view most others are accustom to when GTOs get involved. Pontiac and GM have responded by lowering the target numbers for production and sales in '05 to a more realistic level. Like the new and upcoming Charger, GTO is NOT aimed at the Mustang market. It's aimed at its OWN market. The new Charger is not retro, either.... I like it!

Love the new mustang looks, but they are slow.
The GTO is a reworked caddy citera and was a poor build choice in my opinion. It doesn't dserve the name GTO

There were some cool mustangs like my uncle's 67 GT 500 KR.

none of them will run with my modded Z06 but I would trade it for the shelby in a heartbeat.

Maybe the 07 cobra will kick some ass.
I hope GM is on the right track with the camaro also.

The GTO is a design disaster. How could someone take that revered moniker that represented such a distinctive automobile and put it on such a plain-jane generic car? Someone at GM needs to have their head examined. The whole GTO thing is such a joke it makes you realize GM has completely lost touch with the marketplace.

I mean, think about this, all the 40ish and 50ish baby boomers who grew up lusting for a real GTO; now they finally have the money to buy one. And I remain convinced they would indeed be buying GTO's if GM had done like Ford did with the '05 Mustang.

It's a sad day to be a GM fan.

Ford did a great job with it. There is a good video you may want to check out on the homepage of www.automedia.com

As a sales disaster, GTO inventories are at near zero. Prices are rising and the '06 model is already being ordered. Once Charger came out, and we realized it isn't even aimed at the same market (too big), GTO sales have JUMPED.
For those that are into "Hey, look at me!", GTO is not a good choice. GTOs are for beating up on the competition. It does that VERY well... And the racer crowd in the Pontiac "world" are accepting them just fine. It was cool to see so many (about 30) at the TriPower Nats last week. Ranging from 10.30s (nitrous, pumped up) to 14.0s (auto with 350 lb. driver), they showed very well. The pure stockers went 13.20s with the manual, and 13.60s for the autos. We also saw the "fastest LSx in the world", an '05 GTO body (more like a pro-stock) with a twin-turbo LS6. 7.15 @ 198. They're planning an LS7 for next year... 6's here we come!

As a sales disaster, GTO inventories are at near zero. Prices are rising and the '06 model is already being ordered. Once Charger came out, and we realized it isn't even aimed at the same market (too big), GTO sales have JUMPED.
For those that are into "Hey, look at me!", GTO is not a good choice. GTOs are for beating up on the competition. ......

GM needed to re-create the GTO as a fully modern, fast and attractive vehicle. Well, the new GTO is modern and fast, but it ain't attractive IMHO. I only say that because they have chosen to use the GTO nameplate. If they had chosen a different name, then who cares what it looks like. But if you're gonna resurrect the famous GTO name, then you gotta be true to the design. GM wasn't.

An '05 Mustang looks like a modernized '67 Mustang. It's beautiful, at least to an old-timer like me who grew up in the 60's and street raced with those old cars every night.

Ford did it right. Pontiac did it wrong.

When GM brought the GTO back they hit the nail on the head except for the look. The GTO is powerful, a decent sized car, but it's not really sporty. They could have improved the handling a little bit more. When Ford brought the Mustang back they made it perfect. The look is distinct and attractive, it handles rather well and its performance is nothing to omit. I like how the Mustang has the 4.6 with 300 hp, it's nothing FLASHY like a 6.0 with 400 but who cares. Raw power isn't everything and in my mind that is the only place that the GTO is better than the mustang.

Ford didn't "bring the Mustang back". It was actually following a pretty good evolutionary line... Until.... Retro. I far prefer the looks of the '96-'04 Mustang over the new one. Every time I see one, I feel "cheated". I get all worked up over seeing an old hot rod, only to see this retro thing coming down the road.
Only the band-wagoneers and investor crowd dislike GTO (among Pontiac people). While at Norwalk, there were at least 30 of them racing. They were more than accepted by the real GTO crowd. There were mini-crowds around them all weekend in the staging lanes, discussing changes, stockers, etc.
While the body isn't a styling revolution, the car meets every parameter required to make it a GTO. In fact, it's faster AND quicker than any previous production GTO.
The mid-year '06 model may make it the quickest/fastest car GM ever produced (gets LS7 mid-year). It only has the ZL-1s to contend with, historically speaking.

....I far prefer the looks of the '96-'04 Mustang over the new one. ........

I can't imagine liking the '96 to '04 Mustangs better than the '05, but that's cool. To each his own.

I still remain convinced Pontiac needed to do same Mustang-type retro styling when they chose to use GTO name. Otherwise, they should have called it something else, maybe GTA as in GT "Almost", heheh.

even though this is a Chevy forum side, and I am a DIE HARD GM guy
with titles to bowties, GMCs, Ponchos;
I agree that the new Mustang is shaped, agressively to give old and new ford pony car lovers, EXACTLY what they all wanted (I think).
I'm not sure as I have never owned a Ford, but as a GM guy, if I were a Ford guy, I'd want one.
now on the GTO, the skin should have been more angular. Pontiac was always noted for its agressive stance, and they don't have to 'retro' as some would call it; however, I do think Pontiac could learn from both Ford and Cadillac (the CTS), and even when the Avalanche and Aztek hit. maybe you didn't like them, but some did, and even the non-likers, KNEW what they were looking at, so the GTO could have had a more swept nose, or a more open and cavernous shaker hood. It just looks like a worked over GTP with logo swap. I mean underneath she has got the 'panache' and overall, it could've been MUCH worse:
mid 90s LeMans / late 80s Toyo Nova (dual cam/not carb)
still, I think I did expect something a little meaner looking, not sleek.
plus Pontiac hand build a BIG big block to put in the new tigers.
:2cents:

Ok, they didn't bring back the mustang they reinvented it. I don't understand why people have to get all bent out of shape. I mean this is about preferences not about who is right and wrong. Everyone has different tastes so some may like the mustang and others the GTO that's great. If everyone liked the same thing everything would be boring. But please don't get mad I thought we grew out of the "mine is better" stage.

I understand my opinions often go against the grain. It's a dirty job, but somebody's GOT to do it.
I have a couple of old Fieros. They're both GTs, and in pretty nice looking condition. I find it interesting, they're nearly 20 years old, but look right at home in a parking lot full of modern cars.
Having lived in "the good ol' days", I know they weren't THAT good. We (humans) always have a way of forgetting the bad stuff and remembering the good. Retro styling is an attempt to rekindle the feelings of lost youth. That's fine, IF you lost your youth... I never did. Maybe that's why I'm always "swimming upstream".
It's okay. As another has stated, it takes all kinds to make a world. My opinions on the new Mustang and GTO are just that. Opinions. I have not told anyone their opinions are wrong (except those that imply GTO isn't a "real" GTO). By the same token, my opinions are not wrong, either. They're simply opinions.
I LIKE modern cars. I also like older cars. I don't like cars trying to pretend they're something they're not. I don't like PEOPLE that pretend to be something they're not... Mustang is a pretender, pretending to be an old "muscle car" (Mustang is a "pony" car, not "muscle", but that's a whole different debate). The '96-'04 body is a modern car with a few minor "retro" cues to tie it to the past. The new one is a blatent attempt to relive past glory. I simply don't like that approach. If GTO had been "retro", I would have the same opinion of it as I do Mustang.
And, as I DO go against the grain, I submit there are more ways to measure success and failure than the dollars generated or lost... Not EVERYTHING in life is based on money. Mr. Wangers and Mr. DeLorean knew that, and they took a gamble that actually paid off. Money wasn't the driving factor in the production of the orignal GTO, nor is it with the current one. Some guys simply have more class than to do something STRICTLY for money. Even in some larger corporations, good things come to light, regardless of profit or loss.
PAX

I agree with you MrPbody. I also go against the grain. I haven't lost my youth though, a month ago I hit the ripe ol' age of 18. I wish I could have lived in the "good ol' days" it would've been so much more fun. I'm with you on disliking all pretenders but I feel that the mustang is not one. I feel that the best way to measure success is how the buyers of the product feel about what they buy. If they love the car, it never gives them any problems, and does its job the way it is supposed to. Then it is a success.

......... I LIKE modern cars. I also like older cars. .........

Right on the money. I bet virtually everyone would agree with you.



.........I don't like cars trying to pretend they're something they're not.........

Yes! Yes! This is exactly my rant about the GTO. The new GTO is pretending to be an old GTO, instead of GM just saying they built a new high-performance car.



.........Retro styling is an attempt to rekindle the feelings of lost youth..........

I think you're missing the point. Doing the retro thing is a very valid attempt at taking what was good (design appeal and memories) about the older cars and incorporating that into what is so nice about the new cars (great ride, handling, safety and NVH - noise, vibration & harshness -factor).


BTW, I'm just respectfully voicing my opinions here. Not trying to rag on you (or anyone).

I would love to know what John DeLorean thinks of the new GTO. Anyone seen his comments on it?

Mr. DeLorean faded from public life after his being setup and bankrupted to get him out of the car biz'. He had "no comment" when asked about GTO, not long before his death.
Mr. Wangers (the other half of the GTO "parenthood") said clearly, the car meets or exceeds all requirements laid out for the first GTOs. He also said it was being slaughtered by the media and retro crowd, unjustly. Let the car's performance speak for it, just like the original GTOs.
BTW, Pontiac DOES call it a modern performance car, not a throw-back. By the strictest definitions of "GTO" (grand touring, homogenized) and "muscle car" (intermediate body, high performance engine and chassis), GTO is right on the money. And it seems to go unnoticed, but the '04 model, when introduced, was the quickest/fastest stock GTO ever produced. Yes, in stock trim, it's quicker than a Ram Air IV car... The '05 model has added 50 HP, and knocked a couple tenths off the 1/4 mile time over the '04! No "sports sedan" of other non-exotic sports car can touch it. And nothing without a turbo or supercharger comes anywhere CLOSE, except MAYBE the Z06 and Viper, neither of which are non-exotic.... I think what bothers most folks, especially the Ford crowd, are the pushrods, and lack of OHC. The LSx engines are meant to be "in your face" to those that claimed a few years ago, pushrods were dead, and the only performance in the future would come from DOHC V8s... it STILL takes a supercharger for the 5.4 Ford to make the same level of power.
Can't wait for the LS7 version!

Whether you like them or you hate them- the Ford is very identifyable. It has brand recognition. You can recognise the new mustang a mile away. The same can not be said for the new GTO. Nobody says "that car looks like the new GTO". everyone says" that GTO looks like a grand am, cavalier, or something else"...

GM did mis-market the new GTO. Many people- in the current day of "retro is hot"- when expecting the new GTO was expecting the glory and icons of the original muscle car. Judge stripes, bold hoodscoop(s), everything that the car was fondly remembered for. brand identity, etc. GM intended to fill a marketing segment that it had nothing for since scrapping the F-body and rushed it to production to try and make some bucks. However, GM wasn't looking for a literal Trans Am replacement (they dropped the F-body because that market wasn't selling), they wanted to try somethign a little more upscale, which is why you see the car smoking BMW's in the commercials, not Mustangs. Probably a reason why there was no judge package or anything visually aggressive. The car, when released was intended to be more classy like an M-series is "perceived" to be. GM intended one thing and the people obviously wanted another, which is why the sales figures weren't where they were hoping they'd be. The specatular performance of the car is the only reason it has sold at all.

Ford, on the other hand, has a much better grasp on their marketing. Their sales figures easily prove that. And the original mustang wasn't a high performance car. many were sold to secretaries and the alike. They make the cars with a sporty image, yet usable for everyday needs. Volume, profit, etc.. the reason they're in business. They needed Carroll Shelby to improve the Mustang to an acceptable performance car because they couldn't do it on their own. And they're using him again as an image booster now with the new upcoming Shelby GT500 Mustang.

All personal opinions aside, Ford did do a good job with the current Mustang. After all, Ford is in the business to make a profit, and they know what the people want. The new Mustang is a success. Gm, unfortunately, is still trying to figure that out.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a new GTO. I think it's bland and ugly and has no brand character. Sure, it performs great, but I could build any car i wanted to perform or outperform it. The GTO lacks the visual excitement needed for me to want it. I like bold asthetics. Probably one reason I love the Trans Am so much.

My wife plans to buy a new Mustang. I just wish she'd take the coupe and not the convertible.

Tuske427, good post man.

I wish I had some more garage space. That new Shelby GT 500 looks pretty darn appealing. I saw a magazine article that took the supercharged 'stang engine (in a '04 Mustang I think) and added six bolt-on items, totalling around $3,000.

Bottom line; they made 500 rear-wheel horsepower and the car was still a good driver. Very impressive...