You sick genocidal F@#$s !!!

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=620124&section=news
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4004873.stm
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FK13Ak04.html

You know who you are. How do you sleep at night? :mad:

Bertrand Russell nailed it when he described how support is gained for shit like this:

“If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.” -- Bertrand Russell, Roads to Freedom

I'll put up the case for the war fans, for a change..


There's a war on, people get hurt.Serves them right for staying in a city full of terrorists.Children who bleed to death during 'mopping up operations' are just whiny little punks,should have fled long ago.I blame their parents,probably too busy smoking bongs and feeding terrorists.If the people of Fallujah didn't want to get caught in the middle of a war, they could have left, or they could have turned the filthy bastard terrorists over to our wonderful boys who fire every single round with pinpoint accuracy.

It's difficult and dangerous task liberating people who don't want us in their country, and if a few of them die when we bomb the fuck out of their homes, well, they were just careless for staying there.


shit,I feel dirty just saying stuff like that.So glad I'm not enough of an ignoramus to believe it.

Can I get a "Yee-haw!" from the Republicans on this one?

Great.

More recruitment tools for the untouched Bin Laden and Zarqawi.

I am fucking sick and tired of this shit.

I don't like this war and I don't agree with it, but I do not hold the troops responsible. "People being shot in cold blood in the streets", "Families are burying children", "complete families being killed under the rain of bombs being dropped by American forces". This story echos the "baby-killer" chants my dad had to endure when he returned home from Vietnam. 99% of the troops my dad served with did nothing close to what was said about them. However the entire nation held a grudge. I just hope that we don't have a new generation of kids that spit on returning troops.

I don't like this war and I don't agree with it, but I do not hold the troops responsible. "People being shot in cold blood in the streets", "Families are burying children", "complete families being killed under the rain of bombs being dropped by American forces". This story echos the "baby-killer" chants my dad had to endure when he returned home from Vietnam. 99% of the troops my dad served with did nothing close to what was said about them. However the entire nation held a grudge. I just hope that we don't have a new generation of kids that spit on returning troops.
It is interesting that you make a comparison with Vietnam - as there are many who maintain that there is absolutely no way that this is a repeat of that theatre.

As for the war crimes thing - I can only provide you with this example of courage http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/uavnery57.htm

I don't like this war and I don't agree with it, but I do not hold the troops responsible. "People being shot in cold blood in the streets", "Families are burying children", "complete families being killed under the rain of bombs being dropped by American forces". This story echos the "baby-killer" chants my dad had to endure when he returned home from Vietnam. 99% of the troops my dad served with did nothing close to what was said about them. However the entire nation held a grudge. I just hope that we don't have a new generation of kids that spit on returning troops.


I couldn't agree more.

There are people burying loved ones (who died NEEDLESSLY) in the back yard, or unable to bury them at all - having watched them die from treatable injuries and diseases - because they were denied access to basic facilities.

Yet many are more concerned about name calling. :rolleyes:

Concerned about name calling? That's all you think it's about? :rolleyes:

It's weird to think that I am in the minority of people who don't hold the value of human life outside our country very highly. Funny that unborn babies may soon have more priority than adult human life in foreign countries. We have already killed 16,000 innocents in Iraq, and there is no end in sight. I would never spit on our troops for what they do, they are put up to it by an evil person. It's not ok, and it will never be ok.

Concerned about name calling? That's all you think it's about? :rolleyes:
In comparison with genocide? yes!

How concerned will you be about it when the blowback hits?


Thrasher, did you get that number of 16,000 civilian deaths from here (http://www.iraqbodycount.net)?. Those are based on deaths reported by the press.

Try this one based on an extrapolation of an actual survey carried out by scientists: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996596

The New Scientist one puts it at a conservative 100,000 civilian deaths excluding Falluja - and 200,000 deaths including.

These are the deaths over and above natural causes and illness - although one could argue that many illness related deaths are a direct result of destroyed infrastructure like drinking water and medical facilities.

A quote from the article:
The majority of these deaths, which are in addition those normally expected from natural causes, illness and accidents, have been among women and children

Maybe that's why men between 16 and 60 years of age were not allowed to leave Falluja - to even the numbers up a bit.

How is it that when people die during a time of war its considered mass genocide and everyone is pissed, yet when Saddam killed even more there wasn't all of this yelling? http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1017569/posts

How is it that when people die during a time of war its considered mass genocide and everyone is pissed, yet when Saddam killed even more there wasn't all of this yelling? http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1017569/posts
EXACTLY!!!!!! Do we have any numbers on the kills Saddam posted on a yearly basis?
And just who are the "Sick genocidal F@#$s"? Americans? Soldiers? Or the Jihadists?

I don't believe Saddam kept records of who he killed, and we're still discovering mass graves. I highly doubt we will know exactly how many people he tortured and killed.

How is it that when people die during a time of war its considered mass genocide and everyone is pissed, yet when Saddam killed even more there wasn't all of this yelling? http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1017569/posts

I see nobody here condoning his actions, Saddam was a piece of shit who killed hundreds of thousans of his own people. What he did was not right, and what we are doing is not right.

T4, I choose to go by the most conservative numbers in a political forum like this, there is no sense arguing over sources of information. Either way, we are killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people...

I see nobody here condoning his actions, Saddam was a piece of shit who killed hundreds of thousans of his own people. What he did was not right, and what we are doing is not right.




Congratulations thrasher,you are right on the money.This thread is not about what Saddam did or didn't do,and his actions have no bearing on what has happened in the last month.

Those who seek to divert attention from the topic need to grow some balls and quit whining. If you really think that Saddam and Bush are being treated unequally, perhaps you might like to try living under sanctons for ten years.

Perhaps you might like to try living under sanctons for ten years.
U.N. imposed sanctions, not U.S... I know you think we are the demonic rulers of the world, but not in this instance...

The sick ones are the ones who are/would have been plenty happy to just sit back and allow Saddam to continue killing/torturing his own people.

NO ONE wants war. No one is happy with war. It is just sometimes a necessary evil.

I see nobody here condoning his actions, Saddam was a piece of shit who killed hundreds of thousans of his own people. What he did was not right, and what we are doing is not right...

Exactly! - and while trying to divert attention away from that by mentioning Saddam, they conveniently omit the part about who supported his rise to power, helped arm him with biological and chemical weapons, provided intelligence and assistance with battle strategy and even increased diplomatic relations with him as these very acts were being perpetrated.

Who ever expected Saddam's replacement Allawi would be any different?

Can anyone see a pattern forming here?

Either way, we are killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people...

Thanks for bringing the topic back into the thread.

U.N. imposed sanctions, not U.S... I know you think we are the demonic rulers of the world, but not in this instance...That won't wash Murco.

Everyone who has bothered to look into it knows that a certain couple of permanent member nations vetoed every single attempt to get them eased or lifted. They also know of the UN officials who resigned in disgust over the way these vetoes were used to lock the sanctions in place while 1 million Iraqis, half of them children, died as a direct result. Just as they know that the no fly zones and bombings between the two wars were instigated by the US, Britain and France - not the UN.

You're a military man aren't you Murco? Perhaps you can explain the strategic importance of annihilating or otherwise rendering inaccessable all of the medical facilities in the latest assualt on the city of Fallujah.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/1208
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=384
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6614
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11327998%255E601,00.html

If those links are too "speculative" for you, how about the voice of experience from the last time Falluja was "pacified" - read the blog by Jo Wilding dated Tuesday October 19th, 2004.

http://wildfirejo.blogspot.com/

The sick ones are the ones who are/would have been plenty happy to just sit back and allow Saddam to continue killing/torturing his own people.


A reminder.Saddam was deposed over a year ago.He has been in custody for many months.The war crimes currently being commited in Fallujah have nothing to do with his defunct regime.

NO ONE wants war. No one is happy with war. It is just sometimes a necessary evil.

Well, perhaps next election you will do the world the courtesy of not electing a President who is hellbent on war at any cost.This war is NOT a necessary evil, it's just plain evil.

While I remember, there are plenty of reports of cluster bombs being used. Must be those pinpoint precision cluster bombs :rolleyes:

Genocide is a Mass extermination of a race of people. Iraq is not because we're not targeting the civi's.

Always remember.

Iraqi's killed Kurds

American's killed Native Americans

NO difference, just about 200 years.

I blame our government for the war we are in now. Many people find it much easier to blame Saddam and his atrocities. Saddam is a sick and twisted f*** but people tend to forget who gave that sick and twisted f*** the power to carry out the murders he commited. Not only did Reagan/Bush ignore his use of chemical weapons against Iranian soldiers and Iraq's Kurdish minority, but the US helped Iraq develop its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs. In my book, Saddam is evil for torturing and murdering people, and our government helped him so their not much better.

While I remember, there are plenty of reports of cluster bombs being used. Must be those pinpoint precision cluster bombs :rolleyes:


GOOD if they use cluster bombs. They are a good weapon. You want our soldiers to "fight fair?" If it saves the life of one American soldier, then use them. Any military person knows that if you can take out a target with in-direct fire, you don't use direct fire. You only use infantry when artillery or air can't do the job.

http://www.aamovement.net/news/2004/backfromiraq1.htm
Gee, another extremist left-wing website with the all the credibility of an American $3.00 bill...
If you want to bolster your position don't use these silly websites, and that goes for extremist right-wing sites as well. This same site reports us finding WMD's on another page (sarin gas).
As a former Marine I accepted the fact that anytime I used my weapons innocent people could get hit. The article claims he "lit the car up" as they didn't stop when warned. As someone who faced this exact same situation a few times I doubt it went that way and he had more reason to fire upon the car than what was described.
Also, Mr. Massey is now making a living travelling from campus to campus on speaking engagements. We have the next John Kerry!!!

The New Scientist one puts it at a conservative 100,000 civilian deaths excluding Falluja - and 200,000 deaths including.

And anyone who took research methods in college knows these numbers are bogus! If you survey 1,000 households in a city and then take those results and extrapolate the results across the entire population, you get a flawed result.
1- You cannot use such a small number of respondents to represent 25 million people... That's just stupid!
2- The survey was done in cities within 18 governates and not on the rural population which is larger than the city population. These rural areas have barely been touched by the war at all.
3- "They went to 30 homes nearest the GPS point" so, if a family lived close enough they would get repeat reports of deaths within that family.

And I seriously doubt there were even 100K people left in Fallujah.
Same old crap from the same old people..
Blah, Blah, Blah.....

GOOD if they use cluster bombs. They are a good weapon. You want our soldiers to "fight fair?" If it saves the life of one American soldier, then use them. Any military person knows that if you can take out a target with in-direct fire, you don't use direct fire. You only use infantry when artillery or air can't do the job.

SPECIALLY WHEN THERE ARE KNOWN TO BE THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS IN THE AREA RIGHT ROCKY? I AGREE COMPLETELY!

GOOD if they use cluster bombs. They are a good weapon.
Perhaps you'd see it diifferently if your kids lost an arm or a leg to one six months after hostilities had eased.....

perhaps he'd see it differently if he had a modicum of intelligence.

I'm fortunate enough to have done urban assault and anti terrorist training as well as spent time in infantry fire support. And there is no way in hell that i would even think of using indirect fire on a position where there was a possibility of civilians. indirect fire is not accurate enough and it is irresponsible to use it as you can't see what you're hitting. Perhaps the only thing i can think of that is more irresponsible and disgusting is the use of general area weapons like cluster bombs, it is simply modern day carpet bombing which is designed specifically for killing civilians and lowering moral. The fact that many of the bomlets will not explode and will remain on the ground to be used as toys for returning children or simply explode later taking their arms or legs. Look at cambodia and vietnam, where landmines have claimed the lives or limbs of thousands of innocent people long after the fighting ended.

The sick ones are the ones who are/would have been plenty happy to just sit back and allow Saddam to continue killing/torturing his own people.
If you want to talk about ignoring leaders who torture and kill, and violate other basic human rights, Iraq wasn't at the top of the list, Burma, North Korea, even China are all worse than Saddam ever was. So it's good that we ignore the serious problems, so long as Saddam gets his. :)
GOOD if they use cluster bombs. They are a good weapon. You want our soldiers to "fight fair?" If it saves the life of one American soldier, then use them.
So long as it saves one American soldier, it doesn't matter that it kills innocent civillians - even years after the conflict has ended. People like to take the easy way out, but they fail to think about the lasting effect of their choices, nobody likes to take responsibility for their actions it seems. :disappoin

fact is ... for the last year Sadam has tortured and killed nobody..... when will america start to concentrate on getting torturing killing human rights abusing leaders out of the white house???

It gets worse.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200411/s1242970.htm

Apparently,the civillians of Fallujah are now being denied humanitarian aid.

Looks like the tactic of seizing the hospital was more about suppressing casualty figures than helping the innocent.

blah blah blah, wine, wine, wine. The fact is, none of us are there fighting house to house. So everyone can shut the fuck up! Its easy to make a decision when you are typing on your computer at home isn't it? :2cents:

Easy Enough To Make A Decision When You're At Home In The White House With Thousands Of Other People To Die And Do Your Killing....

Why Can't Anybody Else Think For Themselves?

So all those who aren't fighting the war in Iraq have no reason to voice an opinion.



LOL, how many times have we heard that type of thing before?

blah blah blah, wine, wine, wine. The fact is, none of us are there fighting house to house. So everyone can shut the fuck up!




The next person who makes a direct attack on another member, or advocates genocide in the Middle East, or breaches the user guidelines for whatever reason,whatever their political persuasion, will be permanently removed from AF.


Take a week off and come back when you can post something less calculated to offend.

And as for your argument, it's just as easy to sit at home and ignore the atrocities being committed in the name of your country.In allowing these incredibly excessive tactics to be used, your leadership has painted a target on the back of every American citizen for every two bit terrorist and grudge holding extremist to aim at.

In allowing these incredibly excessive tactics to be used, your leadership has painted a target on the back of every American citizen for every two bit terrorist and grudge holding extremist to aim at.
I'll take those odds... As misguided as you all seem to think this war is I believe that the world will be better when Iraq is free of the Jihadists, has a stable democracy, and Arab's finally see the fruits of freedom. Yes, there will be more casualties and bad days when bad things happen. But I really think you guys are underestimating America's willingness to see this through...

I believe that the world will be better when Iraq is free of the Jihadists, has a stable democracy, and Arab's finally see the fruits of freedom.

I believe the world will be a better place when america is free of fundamentalists, has an effective democracy, and our government respects the fruits of freedom

...but you dont see me "liberating" our country.

I'll take those odds... As misguided as you all seem to think this war is I believe that the world will be better when Iraq is free of the Jihadists, has a stable democracy, and Arab's finally see the fruits of freedom. Yes, there will be more casualties and bad days when bad things happen. But I really think you guys are underestimating America's willingness to see this through...
Those poor Arabs who are always supressed need to be bombed to death before they can be free!

There is no reason to be there other than the last claim Bush has left that is somewhat true "Saddam is a bad guy". All his other lies came to bite him in the ass yet the American people are still eating up his BS like theres no tomorrow...and with him as President for another 4 years, that might come true.

And tell me how the world can profit of a "free" Iraq when there are more dangerous countries left to actually produce WMD and might even look into further ways of trying to harm America.

perhaps he'd see it differently if he had a modicum of intelligence.

I'm fortunate enough to have done urban assault and anti terrorist training as well as spent time in infantry fire support. And there is no way in hell that i would even think of using indirect fire on a position where there was a possibility of civilians. indirect fire is not accurate enough and it is irresponsible to use it as you can't see what you're hitting.


Me too, Pal. I used to train officers in Fire Support tactics as well as being a forward observer and planner for artillery and air. Spent time on the big guns too. I stand by what I said earlier. We never use direct fire when in-direct fire will do. We never gave civilians a second thought either. They weren't supposed to be there. We didn't target them but neither did their presence alter our mission.

We never gave civilians a second thought either. They weren't supposed to be there. We didn't target them but neither did their presence alter our mission.
Of course not because they can all be swept under the rug of Collateral Damage.

And tell me how the world can profit of a "free" Iraq when there are more dangerous countries left to actually produce WMD and might even look into further ways of trying to harm America.
The worst fear that Saddam's ilk have is a free society in the Arab world.

But I really think you guys are underestimating America's willingness to see this through...

And I think this administration is grossly over-simplifying the case for commercial and political gains.18 months ago Bush announced that the 'bulk of the fighting was over'..Today, he's levelling a city because its rightful owners don't want to do as they are told.

I think Bush has underestimated the strength of local feeling against his continued presence in their country.However, I also think he doesn't care.He'll just keep raining artillery and bombs onto the Iraqis until they accept democracy on his terms.

Unless It Becomes Economically Unprofitable.

Today, he's levelling a city because its rightful owners don't want to do as they are told.

The rightful owners aren't the ones causing the problems. Its the Arabs from other countries causing the fighting.

Really? I Thought The Fighting Was Caused By The Non Arabs From Half Way Round The World Who Decided It Looked Like A Nice Place To Invade. At Least... Thats Who Started It.

The rightful owners aren't the ones causing the problems. Its the Arabs from other countries causing the fighting.

It's a nice delusion that somehow the people of Iraq are just tangled up in the middle of a fight between good and evil, and will rejoice when America triumphs.The reality is that there are probably more Iraqis acting against America than these alleged 'foreign terrorists.'

The rightful owners aren't the ones causing the problems. Its the Arabs from other countries causing the fighting.

It's a nice delusion that somehow the people of Iraq are just tangled up in the middle of a fight between good and evil, and will rejoice when America triumphs.The reality is that there are probably more Iraqis acting against America than these alleged 'foreign terrorists.'

If Amerca intends to stay true to its stated mission,there are no WMD, and Saddam has longg since been deposed,now haul ass out and let the Arabs decide for themselves who is worthy to lead their nation.All the time that America insists on fucking around in other people's countries, there will be a terrorist response in defence.

18 months ago Bush announced that the 'bulk of the fighting was over'. If you mean what Bush said on the USS Lincoln then you misinterpreted what he said. He said that major combat for that particular carrier was over. Of course thats not what the media portrade, but then again thats the media.

If you mean what Bush said on the USS Lincoln then you misinterpreted what he said. He said that major combat for that particular carrier was over. Of course thats not what the media portrade, but then again thats the media.
When it comes to Bush...it is entirely okay to take stuff out of context and make mountains out of mole hills. It is what we come to love as "fair and balanced". Everything is Bush's fault.

If you mean what Bush said on the USS Lincoln then you misinterpreted what he said. He said that major combat for that particular carrier was over. Of course thats not what the media portrade, but then again thats the media.


Transcript of the speech,to the last word.

Admiral Kelly, Captain Card (ph), officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans, major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed.

It really pisses me off the way that some people try to rewrite history when people like Bush make fools of themselves. I've misinterpreted nothing, you are either too lazy to research your arguments properly or you are a straight out liar.

Transcript of the speech,to the last word.



It really pisses me off the way that some people try to rewrite history when people like Bush make fools of themselves. I've misinterpreted nothing, you are either too lazy to research your arguments properly or you are a straight out liar.



When it comes to Bush...it is entirely okay to take stuff out of context and make mountains out of mole hills. It is what we come to love as "fair and balanced". Everything is Bush's fault.

If you see 1000 dead American Marines and thousands of Iraqi civilians unlawfully killed since the USS Lincoln speech as a 'molehill', you have serious problems with your perspective.

18 months ago,Bush lied to his own Navy and the world when he said "major combat operations in Iraq have ended." The people of Fallujah are proof that Bush is a liar.Or was he simply misinformed? Like he was with the WMD? so which is your pick...incompetent,or untruthful.Either way, he should not be trusted to run a super power.No wonder all of his key henchmen are quitting.Maybe they don't want to be there when he gets impeached.

When it comes to Bush...it is entirely okay to take stuff out of context and make mountains out of mole hills. It is what we come to love as "fair and balanced". Everything is Bush's fault.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/confused.gif

Aren't you a schoolteacher? I hope you don't teach history...http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/screwy.gif

Talk about 'skewed'.

Of course thats not what the media portrade, but then again thats the media.


yeah ...damn media... we should kill them!

oh hang on...they did that already!

Sickening stuff, a country that was a mecca of knowledge in the foundations of mathetmatics and such before the Americans where even conceived into the land of the free. Is having its history crushed its peoples dignity destroyed

Yet theyre a nothing but a chess piece in a game for you war hungry lot...

beware all the age of paranoia is here to stay

Sickening stuff, a country that was a mecca of knowledge in the foundations of mathetmatics and such before the Americans where even conceived into the land of the free.
The "mecca" was overrun by a bloody dictator a couple of decades back. Recently it became a symbol of oppression, mass-murder, war-mongering, and greed under Saddam. You thought I was going to say America and Bush, didn't you!
:loser:
Is having its history crushed its peoples dignity destroyed
It's history is still intact and most of it's people, who lost their dignity a few decades ago, have it back now...
Yet theyre a nothing but a chess piece in a game for you war hungry lot...
Who, who are the "war hungry lot?" I bet I can guess what you're gonna say... Go ahead!!

Somebody truly IS fully sick!

Somebody truly IS fully sick!


I bet you can't clarify what you mean, justify it, then make a rational well reasoned argument out of it.