4th slips out on new swap

i just swaped in a 95 b18c1 gsr engine and tranny into my 94 ls bout 2months back, i also run a 55 shot nos. last week i ran a z28 and won. my car seemed fine at the time but soon after the tranny started sliping out of fourth if i put any more than slight pressure on the throttle, also it grinds when i put it and reverse and shifts kind of harsh into second. i can feel the shifter pull forward when i get on the gas and it only has problems with the gears that i pull back on the stick. i can use all the info and help i can get its hard to race without 4th

sounds kinda like bad syncros too me. i chipped a tooth in my old tranny a year ago and needed a new one quick found some guy in this ghetto shop that had one and stuck it in my car now only to find out that the syncros are not going to last much longer.
also, did you use the same clutch out of the swapped engine or your old one?

before you go into reverse, put in 1st and let the clutch start to grab so the car moves a bi then shift to revers and since the car is moving a tiny bit it should go in easier, somtimes it will go in easier into reverse if you go into 1st or 2nd first and not even let out the clutch in that gear at all.

and the engine rocks a bit under hard acceleration which is why you feel the shifter move, shouldnt be alot though, and if it grinds into the next gear its probably a synchro.

Could be a worn clutch paired with a bad 2nd gear synchro...is it cold where you are...sometimes in the morning, having a hard time getting into the low gears is normal...also when was the last time you changed your tranny oil?

i used a new disc but reused the pressure plate it was fairly new and both disc and pres plate are ACT there is no grinding while driving at all only into reverse and when car is still it shifts into 4th no prob it just comes out when i get on the gas.

most ppl i asked said syncros but haynes manual DOESNT mention this. it says "worn or improperly ajusted linkage, imput gearbearing retainer broke or loose, worn sift fork." does any body have any experience with these problems? and if it is syncros is this fixable (i still have ls tranny for parts).

all fluids honda spec or better and under 800 mi.

i know the shifter is supposed to move a little but it seems exessive and looks like the stick is being pulled out of fourth could motor mount inserts stiffen this and prevent the gear from comming out?

maybe the stock inserts are broken, ive seen it happen a few times. also I personally dont see how the synchro would make it pop out of gear, its just supposed to match the gear to the transmission input shaft speed when shifting into 4th and then its job is over as far as I know. and no grinding when driving? doesnt sound like synchros then , when they start getting bad then you hear it grind when you shift into the gear.

i have yet to hear how the clutch is? new, old? worn clutch pads can do that. and it is a b18c engine and tranny. i doubt the best of care was taken in preserving the life of both. having worn clutch pads can cause the tranny to grind. it is also the same with the syncro's. they help to line the gears up when shifting. if they don't line up quite right then, you have grinding. i'm not quite sure about it poping out of gear. but i would definately check on the life of the clutch and consider the wear on the syncro's.

at time of install clutch disk was brand new as was the fly wheel heat shield the clutch pressure plate was reused from my old ls engine with under 800 mi on it and as far as the clutch i took off the engine it wasnt in that bad of shape do you think this could be caused buy the pressure plate getting "softer"

I am just wondering how a worn clutch disc will cause the tranny to grind? sure it wont grab good when letting the clutch out cuz its worn, but it will just make the pressure plate friction area not as far from the flys friction area when pedals out but when the press the pedal theres still the same amount of fluid movement as before in the line so it will disengage, and I dont see how it will cause grinding when the clutch isnt engaged at all.

have reasoning behind this?

ok so new development? i was just out driving and 4th slips out like it has been and i figure out that i can put it back in fourth without toutching the clutch, so i try the other gears and once i get it in first i can go through every forward gear with out touching the clutch and it doesnt grind at all. sometimes i had to tap the gas to get it to go in but that was it. i found this pretty strange and wonder if this all could be blamed on the clutch. any ideas? i need help fast i hate bustin my nuckles when its cold out!

you can do it on any car withoutu the clutch. upshifting light pressure and it goes right in when its ready and downshift go to neutral and rev to a bit higher than you thin it neds and light pressure and as the rpms fall to the right point it will go in. can you just hold it in 4th gear when driving or does it not like driving in 4th?

no if i try to hold it in fourth it still tries to pull itself out. when i do try to hold it in it feels like the tranny is about to be ripped off the engine. and the whole no clutch shifting thing is new to me it never did that before and ive never been able to do it on another car. i could take it out of gear but never put it back in without the clutch.

clutches seem to be very difficult for people to understand. me too. i just know that when my clutch was going sometimes it would not go into gear and sometimes it would grind into gear. when the clutch does not hold true like it should, many things can start to happen. a soft pressure plate could be the prob. the install could also be a prob. where the pressure plate bolt torque'd like they should have been?
since you did the swap you might have to rethink exactly what you did to the clutch. i know ehen i did my swap i got the tranny back on the new engine and was getting ready to put it back in and noticed i left my pilot bearing out. had to take it all back apart.:banghead: well atleast i caught it before i put it all back together.

Now I'm thinking its a shift linkage bushing...I just heard a similar problem described in the 3000gt forum...guy had it slip out of 1st and 3rd and he would need to hold it in physically.

Since you are having problems with lower gears, reverse, 2nd and 4th...I think this maybe your problem...the guy mentioned that it was a $20 fix.

i was just looking for bushings and noticed that on short shifters some said they excluded gsr is there any difference in they linkage between the gsr and the ls linkage and/or bushings. i have the gsr linkage on the ls body

Yeah, when it pops itself out of gear its usually shift linkage bushings, but if when you hold it in fourth it feels like it's gonna blow up then your fourth gear might be broken (or you're pushing it too hard), did you leave a tool in there? lol. Another thing, you shouldn't ever put old with new parts in the clutch assembly that's why they come in kits. As far as reverse grinding, put it into 5th first, and then reverse...if you have the manual that came with the car, it tells you in there that it's supposed to grind if you don't do it right...I believe one way was to let off the clutch after starting and then press the clutch back in and shift into reverse.

I believe one way was to let off the clutch after starting and then press the clutch back in and shift into reverse.

this is when it does grind. if i keep the clutch in after start and go right to rev. it goes in fine. and yeah when i was holding it in gear i was pulling hard it was bad it kinda scared me and im not gonna do it again. i reused the pressure plate cuz it was still fairly new and looked good but i think im gonna get a new plate and disk if the new polly bushings and motor mount inserts i got today dont help anything. i was driving today and something happend and it wouldnt go into third it was like i couldnt find the slot it goes in it just wasnt there but after a few miles it fixed itself so im hoping it is the linkage ill check it out soon as this damn weather clears! thanks for the input T_A :bigthumb:

Im sure youve checked this but one time the bolt that goes through the shifter/shift rod came loose and the shifter felt really sloppy and it was hard finding the right gear, still stayed in gear once I found it though.

Oh yeah that definitely sounds like the linkage bushings if you couldn't find the slot that it goes in. I've had that happen to an integra that I owned once. The linkage had come completely off and there were no "slots", but I could shift wherever I wanted, however I wanted. Glad to help. :)

ok so i just changed the linkage bushings on both ends (linkage to floor pan and linkage to tranny) and put two of the three motor mount torque mount bushings in (the third is on the back of engine and i didnt want to take off the IM to get to it) but its still slippin outta fourth this is fustrating as hell. any new ideas guys i need some serious help i dont want to buy a new tranny if i dont have to

damn its still popping out huh...i'm gonna have to go w/ the synchonizer then...or possibly the fork inside the tranny (the 3rd/4th gear fork, not the clutch fork)...more likely the synchronizer though...unless someone put a spring in ur fourth gear slot on your shifter as a prank?

If it is the syncros is this fixible or is it cheaper to get another tranny (type r if i get another one) and if it is fixable can i use the parts from my ls tranny ( it has a bad 2nd gear)?

i also just read someone said they had this prob with 5th and said it was cuz he had no fluid in the tranny i checked mine and it was full but pretty dirtty i no its probably not likely but could this cause a problem like this. and i am supposed to fill it at the plug by the axle right, is there any where higher up to fill it or lower to drain it?

this is how I do mine. after I drain it I put the plug back on and remove the check level window (I think a 1/2" drive opens it) and then on top of the tranny theres a rubber plug on a vent, I hose clamp a hose on it, and put a funnel in the hose and clamp that, then pour it in and it will fill SLOW so even if you see no fluid in the funnel wait a while to put more in, and once youve got a couple quarts in start putting little bits at a time til it starts to drain out the plug you just removed and then put the plug back in and then remove funnel/hose and put vent back on.

also I wont give any guarantees on this but my neighbors been around cars a long itme and told me that kerosene will flush out the synchros and make it shift smoother, so I bought a quart of engine flush (smelled like kerosene and ive heard all these products are basically kerosene) and warmed the car up, poured it in, went for a drive about a minute shifting up to every gear and back down into all the gears, let it drain really good and filled it up and the grinds into 2nd went away (werent very bad to begin with though)

and tranny from honda>rebuilt (usually STEEP prices)
used tranny from importer/junkyard<rebuilt

this is how I do mine. after I drain it I put the plug back on and remove the check level window (I think a 1/2" drive opens it) and then on top of the tranny theres a rubber plug on a vent, I hose clamp a hose on it, and put a funnel in the hose and clamp that, then pour it in and it will fill SLOW so even if you see no fluid in the funnel wait a while to put more in, and once youve got a couple quarts in start putting little bits at a time til it starts to drain out the plug you just removed and then put the plug back in and then remove funnel/hose and put vent back on.

also I wont give any guarantees on this but my neighbors been around cars a long itme and told me that kerosene will flush out the synchros and make it shift smoother, so I bought a quart of engine flush (smelled like kerosene and ive heard all these products are basically kerosene) and warmed the car up, poured it in, went for a drive about a minute shifting up to every gear and back down into all the gears, let it drain really good and filled it up and the grinds into 2nd went away (werent very bad to begin with though)

and tranny from honda>rebuilt (usually STEEP prices)
used tranny from importer/junkyard<rebuilt
i wonder if a can of that seafoam stuff would work too?

who knows, seems like it would from reading what it does, but is it a thick product? never seen it in person yet. cuz teh kerosene crap drains out real quick so your almost guaranteed to get it all out. I jack the car up a bit on the drivers side so everything runs to the pass side where he drain plug is.

bump, this thing really pisses me off

ok, have you inspected the complete shift linkage end to end? if not have a friend sit in the car and shift to alll gears while you watch for any obstructions at either end. or the middle, maybe with the shift rod in the middle and moving forwards towards 2nd the rod can hit the top of the tunnel and not get into gear completely?

when driving does it grind into any gear?

is there any problems with other gears like 2nd or R?

if you held it in 4th it forces it back out right away? or can you put it in gear and keep it there with force (dont try holding it real hard. if it doesnt wanna stay, let it out to avoid more possible damage)

when driving and shifting to 4th, will it go in and stay in before you release the clutch or will it not go at all?

first ill answer your questions then ill tell you about what just happend.
i havent checked it with someone else shifting but i have gotten under it and pullled the rod back and fourth into all the gears the exaust hangers looked like they were rubbing the linckage so i trimme them up so they wouldnt rub but it didnt solve anything and i didnt see it rub or hit anything else.

it NEVER grinds into any gear while shifting(this is why i dont think its the syncros)

sometimes 2nd is kinda harsh to shift OUT of, its kinda like it doesnt want to "let go" but it just takes a little more than normal effort to get it outta 2nd and it goes into 3rd smooth. reverse does grind in certain cituations but its avoidable and from what people (on here) have said these cituations are common or normal.(but it didnt do it before and this grinding in reverse was the first sign of a tranny prob.)

i could shift it into fourth fine and keep it there with enough pressure on the gas to keep it at a constant speed on level roads, it i give it any more gas than that to either speed up or to keep speed goin up hill it pops out. and i cant physicaly hold it in at all it still comes out

it would go in and stay in after clutch out untill i gave it gas.

now, i was driving though cincy last night when i got on the highway i ran third long and skipped fourth strait to 5th and kept it in 5th til i got home, bout an hour, as i got back onto normal roads i noticed i didnt have fourth AT ALL! it still shifted in fine but as soon as i let out the clutch it would come out of gear. all other gears still worked fine but i noticed in third a noise that sounded like a "rolling, rubbing" sound (like when your brake pads get to nothing and starts to dig into the rotors but a lot quiter you had to listen to hear it and my passenger didnt even notice it) i thought it could be a bearing spinning or rubbing between 3rd and 4th but i know nothing of the inside of the tranny case. i dont remembere hearing this in fith just third. when it comes outta fourth the shifter kinda bounces between nuetral and fourth and sometimes would "bounce" back into fourth but not any more it wont stay in fourth in any circumstance.

i apreciate all your guy's help and if you know of anybody in any other forum that is good with tranny internals if you could point them to this thread that would be great

I know this seems like it wouldnt be the case cuz if so it should do it in all gears but a spring popped out of my friends clutch disc once, and sometimes it drove perfectly normal, sometimes youd have to shift without the clutch cuz it was almost humanley impossible to push it and sometimes you couldnt even get it out of gear. dont see how spring can only play with you when your going into 4th or out of 2nd though, I thikn its been mentioned already but you should put the LS tranny back in and inspect the clutch while you do this to take care of 2 possibilites at once, if it still does it you will know its some kind of linkage issue.

the ls tranny has a bad secind gear syncro and grinds like hell but im bout to park it for the winter and get out the jeep but does any body know if i can take the parts needed for the gsr tranny out of the ls tranny.

also its been discused earlier about the shifter pulling forward when i step on the gas but now its really pulling hard even when i barely touch the gas it probably moves about an inch, inch and a half and i think this is related to the prob with fourth. any ideas guys?

check your motor mount inserts. maybe they are all broken.

check your motor mount inserts. maybe they are all broken.

You know that you said that if the rear motor mount or the mounts that are on the tranny were to be bad it could and would cause that to happen. I think it is the motor and/or tranny twisting under the torque, and it is pulling on the shift linkage. I am sure this is not the case but you never know, did you maybe forget a mount? Or did you maybe forget to tighten something? Worth a look IMO.

ok some of you guys are using the term "linkage bushings." are these the bushings where the shift lever connects to the shift rod? anyway, if they are i dont see how this would make 4th gear pop out..

Here is what i think the problem is: the teeth on the 3/4th gear synchro on the 4th gear side is worn very badly. the synchro may be perfectly fine still, which enables the teeth to engage the side of 4th gear just fine since everything is spinning at the same speed. However, since the teeth are worn, the collar does not want to stay meshed with 4th gear and simply comes out. When you try to hold it there, the collar has already disengaged and the dog teeth on the collar are grinding with the holes on the side of 4th (which is actually making it worse.) Ive thought about this for quite a while... this is the only explanation i can come up with.

when i say linkage bushing i mean the bushing that holds the rods to the bottom of the car and to the tranny.

this explaination seems reasonable and you seem to know what your talking about but i know almost nothing about tranny internals. i hate to ask you to repeat yourself but can you help me understand this better (how it should work and what you think its doing now) and if the problem is the synro for 3/4th can i replace it with the ls one.

also i have checked the motor mounts and torque mounts all except the one on the back of the engine and it does seem like if there was a prob with this perticular mount it would cause the engine to move enough to pull it out of gear so ill have to check it out (as soon as the snow stops)

does the urethane parts look all cracked or not?

well the RUBBER torque mounts were cracked but not broken i put in the energy suspesion torque mount kit wich are polly peices that go in with the factory rubber

im thinking about gettin a new tranny wondering what you guys think the best tranny is and i dont give a shit about gas milage or daily drivability comfort i like to feel like im driving a race car cause thats what im building i just care about acceleration, speed and traction (and if any body can compare the gearing and driving differences in the gsr and itr tranny that would be great)

well ITR tranny then.