The Truth about Chevy and Ford

Having driven both, the v6 mustang has been a piece of garbage, is a piece of garbage, and always will be a piece of garbage. The 4th gen camaro's i.e. 97-02 (including the '02 as in having a 3.8 and not a 3.4L v6) are faster and more reliable than the pitiful v6 mustang. I will honestly admit that the v8 mustang is faster than the Z28 camaro (not the SS) due to its lighter weight, but unfortunately for Ford, they still do not know how to balance the weight of cars or give them descent suspension. This is results in terrible handling. In my experience in racing including the SCCA the Ford Mustang truely cannot compare to the camaro's next to perfect blend of power and handling. Most everytime there is a mustang on the track you get to see a mustang losing control due the to back end sliding around to the front, but what's new? I learn more towards Chevy than Ford only because Chavy knows how to make cars and Ford knows how to make money by forcing people to by parts from their dealerships. All together the camros appearance is much more pleasant than the mustangs, until '05 rolls arond that might be a different story. I love the fact that they are bring back the '69 mustang styling which was porbably their best year for styling and performace with the stock 375hp engine. And to address the issue of the discontinuation of the camaro, I would like to say that the CEO's of Chevrolet are ignorant crackheads. The camaro is the a large part of the backbone of chevrolet and they thought they could replace it with an ugly PT cruizer + s10 pickup look-a-like/look-like-crap to sell to people who want to spend money on garbage. Chevy didn't discontinue the camaro because it "sucked" as some moron implied, it was discontinued because the spoiled little babies at chevy weren't selling a million camaros a day so they decided to replace with a piece of crap that stupid people would buy. Nice thinking chevrolet! Anyways when its comes down to the best each company made (the Mustang Cobra and the Camaro SS) I would personally choose the SS, which may be slightly slower (Which can be fixed by a mod or two), it is much better equipped for racing especially when it comes down to handling. It also has a better appearance until '05 comes around (maybe) and it will last longer. I forgot to mention that with a little bit of money (and i mean just a little bit) you can make a 3.8l v6 camaro faster than a regular v8 mustang. ---SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS---

moved

What year V-8 Mustang is faster than what year Z28??? Because...correct me if I'm wrong the V-8 Mustangs that were made during the years of the LT1's and LS1's were slower than the Z28, I could be wrong though.

I Have a mustang, just because of aftermarket and couldn't find a camaro z28 in the same price range. I worked at subway and wouldn't give me a loan big enough the cover the z28 so I settled for the mustang. Since I have added heads intake shifter gears and now I can beat that lt1. Now I have a better job and I am debating if I sould leap for a c5. Mustangs will always struggle with the ls1's.
A turbo would cure that but it still would be a mustang and the vette would still be a dream.

Well, I don't have a preference, but how come that they're still making mustangs, but not camaros? People like them better, they're more for the average person. The camaros are very uncomfortable for a taller person.

I wouldn't go so far as saying very uncomfortable for a taller person. I'm about 6'2" taller than average by a few inches and I think it's quite comfortable. I can't speak for any of the newer Mustangs though since I haven't sat in one newer than a '95 I believe.

Hm. As far as I know, the Camaro has always been faster then the Musatang (stock 4 stock) since 1993, when the LT1 Was introduced.

Suprisingly, the Mustang should be a better handler then the Camaro, considering the 99+ Models got the IRS.

The reason GM dropped the F-Body segment was due to the fact that it wasnt GM's hot cake anymore. True; the Mustang is still around, that has some effect on the killing of the F-Body. Girls seem to dig the Mustang more then the F-Bodys. All the rich girly girls have got to have a yellow/red/silver convertable V6 Mustang. Also, the V6 Camaro was outselling the flagship Z28 by about 3:1, and GM was losing money (they built more Z28's then they could sell)

its always been a debate between mustang vs camaro....ive owned 4 camaros and 1 mustang in my day..keyword there 1, but instead of continuing a long heated debate....chew on these numbers straight from a ford dealer..left is hp for mustang and the right is hp for camaro...

V8 Horsepower Comparison
Model Year Mustang Camaro
1979 140 170
1980 119 170
1981 120 170
1982 157 165
1983 175 190
1984 175 190
1985 210 215
1986 200 215
1987 225 225
1988 225 230
1989 225 240
1990 225 245
1991 225 245
1992 215 245
1993 235 275
1994 240 275
1995 240 275
1996 305 305
1997 305 305
1998 305 320
1999 320 320
2000 260 320
2001 320 325
2002 260 325
2003 390

These are the highest HP models available for the year
'No Mustang Cobra in '00 or '02
'96-02 Camaros show Z28/SS HP
No Camaro/Firebird after 2002

OH and just a thought on WHY gm got rid of teh camaro, ive worked for a chevy dealer for a long time and this article in hotrod mag, is as close to a reason that the dealership gave us in 2002....want answers go to this link and read the entire article..would copy and paste it but its a LONG article too much for this forum...enjoy the reading itll really shead some light on the subject for most of you....http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro/

in 2000 the cobra r had 385 hp, the gt had the 260.

yeah but comparing an ss camaro vs a cobra r of that year is not a comparison at all, we all know who wins that one, better compared to a vette. no included in there list i believe becase it was a special order option.

but then again ive seen plenty of stock ss camros give the type r a run for its money 0-100, at least mine did

there is no question that the z06 will smoke any cobra. That is why I compared it to the comaro.

Hm. As far as I know, the Camaro has always been faster then the Musatang (stock 4 stock) since 1993, when the LT1 Was introduced.

Suprisingly, the Mustang should be a better handler then the Camaro, considering the 99+ Models got the IRS.

The reason GM dropped the F-Body segment was due to the fact that it wasnt GM's hot cake anymore. True; the Mustang is still around, that has some effect on the killing of the F-Body. Girls seem to dig the Mustang more then the F-Bodys. All the rich girly girls have got to have a yellow/red/silver convertable V6 Mustang. Also, the V6 Camaro was outselling the flagship Z28 by about 3:1, and GM was losing money (they built more Z28's then they could sell)

Unless it was a Cobra, they've had Live Axles since back-in-the-day same as F-Bodies. In addition, everything from '79 to the '04 is riding on a modification of the FOX platform. '05 is the first new platform since then.

Though I've heard from more than one person in the past, that Camaros/Firebirds seem to handle surprisingly well despite their suspension geometry and weight.

there is no question that the z06 will smoke any cobra. That is why I compared it to the comaro.

Well the sad part is ive raced plenty of 99 00 cobra r at the local 1/8th mile track and ive always finished neck and neck or half car length ahead of em. I usualy run an average 8.6 or 8.7 which translates to roughly 13.2s-13.4s depending on temp blah blah blah..bone stock cars as well, with a simple exhaust swap itd be no contest and itd still end up being alot cheaper of a car to get.

you are right about the vette vs cobra r though, no contest there, vette hands down.

far as teh handling goes, i have to say the late model 98-02 camaros stick to teh road like glue, i ve never had teh chance to drive any 91-97 camaros other than in a straight line down the track but i know my 02 ss handles about as good as my 03 vette does. I t hink the 80s models lacked handling but for the time i think they did pretty good, i think the only thing tha saved tgeh stang in the 80s was the power to weight ratio, vs teh camaros bulky power to weight ratio. surprisingly though the mid 80s vettes handled like jewels, especially the 87. Not much to say about any 80s model cars, they all sucked more or less, cept for the grand national :) ran like a scalded rat with a lil tweaking of the stock turbo

It is getting hard to read this thread, having to sort through all the muck and garbage. The 2000 Cobra R was a production vehicle and was faster than the 2000 SS, period. The 2000 Cobra R also could have eaten any 2000 Vette that was out there. The new Cobras also eat Corvettes for breakfast, except for the Z06 which costs too much too compare anyhow. No one can say that Camaros were always better than Mustangs, or visa versa. These were both nearly equal competitors, both falling behind the other at times. I am also very impressed at the boldness to introduce such a small V8 in your performance vehicle when you already had an extremely strong, and growing platform. The Mustang was still able to compete, 4.6 vs. 5.7 or not. Ford has nearly perfected their 4.6 now, with the addition of the supercharger. I must admit that Chevrolet has impressive numbers from a naturally aspirated small-block. The Z06 is making impressive power, and the new C6 Vettes are as well. I didn't forsee this, but Mustang and Corvette are rivals now...who knew? If Chevy doesn't do something quick, the cheaper Mustang may, and I say may, take a good number of the Vette's sales. Just my take on it.

well the 2001 cobra r was r unning 0-60s at around 5.0-5.1...the stock 00-02 ss camaros were running 0-60 at around 5.1-5.3...big whoopie there, depending on driver it wouldnt make a diference. the 01 mustang cobra r was r unning the 1/4 at around 12.8-13.2 if not mistaken and the 00-02 camaro ss was runnning it around 12.9-13.4 depending on variables..again big deal theer too. not much difference bud, it wasnt until 2003 that the cobra stang started pulling better numbers tahn camaro or the vette, ive never been beaten by any cobra before 03 that wasnt less than a 1/10th of a sec diff at the track. as far as the 4.6 vs the 5.7, again naturally aspirated vs not...and the 5.7 still kicks butt or hangs with, wonder what happens when yoyu put a supercharger on a 5.7..no contest there. no replacement for displacement. I dont know wher you got that the 01 cobra could eat corvettes for breakfast, it has never been able to beat a vette yet, come close the past 2 yrs espcially in 03 but not yet

i dont think theer was ever a TRUE winner between the two giants but for the most part camaro always had teh hp advantage over the mustangs over the past 35 yrs. BUT then again it needed it considering that through most of the years teh camao has always weighted more by a few hundred pounds. If you look at 0-60 hp 0-100 1/4 mile specs the camaro has usually had just a tad bit of an advantage, handling i think the mustang has had the advantage there, but really again i dont think there is a true winner for either, kinda wish ppl would lay it too rest and call it a draw. Although if the camaro comes back on 07 like gm is talking about, i think itll bring back a good competition. corvette vs mustang just doesnt sound as good as camaro vs mustang.

It seemed to me that the leter firebird/camaro models conflicted too much with corvette sales, after all they had the same basic powertrain. Maybe this contributed to the end of production for these cars, which are apperrently replaced by the new gto. So far it's obvious that the gto is a complete trainwreck, the dealers are trying to do anything to get these things sold. Seems cost effective to slap a corvette engine in a grand am coupe and name it a gto, like that would do justice to the original. Maybe gm just wanted to seperate the corvette from their other models by introducing the new 6.0, definitely some marketing bs behind this. By the way, there was never a stock cobra that could "eat up" a corvette of the same year.

wtf........ How does Pontiac expect to become an American equivalent to BMW...Ever since the Firebird was axed nothing from Pontiac has impressed me...The GTO in my opinion is not Pon tiacs savior and will never regain the hype it had with the Firebird..even with the upgrade to the 6.0L V-8 i doubt it will boost sales up due to its still plain look and its portlyness...Basically everything minus the GTO which barely cuts it, is a piece of trash....And sorry no Grand Am GTP or GXP will ever be as great or equivalent to a BMW...and that goes to the Hideous POS known as the Aztek as well

Hey, don't talk about that GTO! It might hunt you down and eat you! Seriously though, that car is a complete beast, and a sleeper(minus the GTO tag) as well. It has an understated body, but a very very well engineered chassis and suspension. That car is practically road race ready. The seats are very well bolstered, and it seems nearly impossible for them to lose grip of you, even on those 65 mph turns! The exhaust has to be THE most impresive stock exhaust I have ever heard, and the engine is very powerful. I have heard complaints about the transmission but I can vouch(from the passengers seat mind you) that it is not a problem, and has firm shifts all the way through.If I had the money, I would definitely purchase one just to be different. There is only one that runs around where I live, and its red, so I would have to get the black one. To stick up for the old goat a little more, the styling really isn't that bad. Back in 1964 when the GTO was introduced, it had the same basic body, and same exact headlights as all of the other models. Sound familiar? GM really tried to re-do what they did in '64, but due to the nameplate, people are looking for something with a wild departure from Pontiac's mainline cars which in the GTO's debut, never happened. This is my outlook on the GTO, but I must say that I looked at it the same way, until I rode in one, and I clearly have a strong appreciation for them now. Thats all!

I completely agree about the gto's performance, I would still say that the styling is terrible, at least the exterior. Why do you think that gm introduced the new hood scoops? Even those don't make it look much better. Impressive stock exhaust? Are you kidding? It has two little 2" pipes coming from a single muffler. Gm could have at least given this car a comparable exhaust system to the corvette, even the grand prix has a better one! And don't tell me it sounds good, because I have heard these things rev, and it definitely dosn't do justice to the corvette engine. Compared to the original, this one sounds like a geo. I really hope they bring back the camaro/firebird in 08...

I don't know what you heard rev, but it couldn't have been the GTO. 350 horsepower running through true duals does not lie. The tips may not be abnormally large, or spread far apart, but that does not mean that it is not very good. I attended the GM Auto Show in Motion this fall, and heard the whole lineup rev...and rev...and REV! Some kid jumped in the GP GT and revved as the GTOs were doing. WHAT A WEEEZE! That car sounded so restricted and bad! The majority of the 6 GTOs answered with a loud, mean and throaty rev. I learned alot of things that were contrary to popular belief. One was obviously that the GTO was still exactly that, a GTO, instead of a weakly restyled Pontiac. The new Ford trucks are not slow, and have unbelievable suspensions. And the Nissan Titan sucks...period. They also had a GTO on a dyno at this event, and it was very impressive. It was a simulated 1/4 mile, and I believe that the spectator pulled a low 14 second pass if I remember correctly. Thats not too shabby for a completely stock car. Oh, one more thing. You spoke of exhaust not doing justice to a Corvette engine. A prime example of this is not the GTO, but the SSR. Both models share the same 6.0l, but the SSR was quiet, and seemed to go much slower when the revs of both were equal. I don't know what the difference was, but the motor sure didn't make up for the poor styling. Last but not least, the H2 performs well offroad(first-hand experience) :biggrin: . My experience of Auto Show in Motion in a nutshell.

Woa, I didn't know the ssr was getting the ls2 engine. In my opinion, that car looks awesome, can't figure out why there aren't more on the road. I guess it's just not a big enought market for it. But look at the exhaust on it two big 3" on either side. Can't imagine it would sound bad, and if it does it's a simple fix. I would probobly replace it with better mufflers. But seriously, I'm really considering that car now. It would be an awesome sleeper, has a nice size bed, and wouldn't be that expensive considering gm's sales slump. I have got to test drive one...

ha..i barely call low 14's in the quarter mile fast.....if GM hadnt rushed the GTO soo fast they could of shaved off a couple hundred pounds as well as putting some detail on the exterior.....I believe a stock C5 ran to 60 in 5.0s and did a high 12 for quartermile.... while the "Goat" does 0-60 in 5.2s and i believe does low 13's with a good driver

It seemed to me that the leter firebird/camaro models conflicted too much with corvette sales, after all they had the same basic powertrain. Maybe this contributed to the end of production for these cars, which are apperrently replaced by the new gto. So far it's obvious that the gto is a complete trainwreck, the dealers are trying to do anything to get these things sold. Seems cost effective to slap a corvette engine in a grand am coupe and name it a gto, like that would do justice to the original. Maybe gm just wanted to seperate the corvette from their other models by introducing the new 6.0, definitely some marketing bs behind this. By the way, there was never a stock cobra that could "eat up" a corvette of the same year.

The GTO was NOT designed to replace the F-Body.

How does Pontiac expect to become an American equivalent to BMW
Huh? Whered that come from?

Even those don't make it look much better. Impressive stock exhaust? Are you kidding? It has two little 2" pipes coming from a single muffler. Gm could have at least given this car a comparable exhaust system to the corvette, even the grand prix has a better one! And don't tell me it sounds good, because I have heard these things rev, and it definitely dosn't do justice to the corvette engine.
GM Engineers spent hours in the lab trying to recreate the orgional sound of a 383 Tri-Carb. BTW, just because it looks weak, doesnt mean it is.

ha..i barely call low 14's in the quarter mile fast.....if GM hadnt rushed the GTO soo fast they could of shaved off a couple hundred pounds as well as putting some detail on the exterior.....I believe a stock C5 ran to 60 in 5.0s and did a high 12 for quartermile.... while the "Goat" does 0-60 in 5.2s and i believe does low 13's with a good driver
14 seconds is fast for a nearly 4000 lb car with 350 hp. Especially when most cars on the road today are 16-17 second cars.

The GTO was NOT designed to replace the F-Body.

The gto is filling the gap in the $35000 muscle car segment. It falls in roughtly between the mustang gt and a corvette, just like the f-body.

The exhaust system on the gto is far from impressive and does not sound like a product of extensive research on gm's part. It is the sadest looking exhaust from any application of the corvette engine. Why not run the exhasut throught two mufflers, and get a deeper sound? The exhaust reflects the whole image of the car, plain and cheap looking.

This "Plain car" that you refer to as the Pontiac GTO has won numerous design awards in its' home country of Australia, it's a clean, muscular design with European-style curves, It wasn't supposed to be a retro-throw-back to the GTO (Which got crap as it aged, anyway), just a means to GM to work to be a truly global company and cut down on costs which were sending the company under.

I'll never understand what it is that attracts Americans to ugly cars, I mean look at a the Cadillac CTS and Escalade, Pontiac Aztek, Hummer H2, Chevrolet Malibu Maxx and Saturn Vue for a few examples of GM's new "ugly squared-off lines that go absolutely nowhere" craze, though I must say that the Pontiac G6 is a welcome hint of style in the GM range.


The GTO's biggest problem is its' age. The cars underpinnings are about 12 years old now (As the car is based loosely around the Opel Omega/Cadillac Catera) and they are showing thier age as new RWD platforms emerge from makers such as Cadillac and Ford, add to that- the V Body was modified on a budget that equates to Vending machine money compared to other GM makes budgets. However come 2005, the all new fully Holden-developed Zeta platform will debut in the VE Commodore and I don't doubt that exports to the US Will be something Holden will aim for, so I imagine there'll be a new improved GTO in about 2007, one that can compete with the likes of the CTS and BMW's.

This "Plain car" that you refer to as the Pontiac GTO has won numerous design awards in its' home country of Australia, it's a clean, muscular design with European-style curves, It wasn't supposed to be a retro-throw-back to the GTO (Which got crap as it aged, anyway), just a means to GM to work to be a truly global company and cut down on costs which were sending the company under.

I'll never understand what it is that attracts Americans to ugly cars, I mean look at a the Cadillac CTS and Escalade, Pontiac Aztek, Hummer H2, Chevrolet Malibu Maxx and Saturn Vue for a few examples of GM's new "ugly squared-off lines that go absolutely nowhere" craze, though I must say that the Pontiac G6 is a welcome hint of style in the GM range.

I agree. The GTO looks fine as- is. The older Firebird 'screaming chicken' mural was an embarrasment, as were the big dopey hood scoops on the most recent Firebird. More scoops and such on the GTO just follows this kind of out-dated thinking at GM.
Lots of people in the States buy understated high performance cars from BMW, Acura etc. Sure they are a bit higher on the price points than the GTO, but that is because their appeal is based on a proven reputation and fine results.
Why screw up the GTO with these idiotic boy-racer themes? To attract younger buyers? To attract older buyers who remember the 'screaming chicken' days? Look at the buyer motivations of those who buy imports and would never buy GM. If GM had not let it's quality and engineering reputation go down the tubes, these tricks would not be necessary.

The GTO's biggest problem is its' age. The cars underpinnings are about 12 years old now (As the car is based loosely around the Opel Omega/Cadillac Catera) and they are showing thier age as new RWD platforms emerge from makers such as Cadillac and Ford, add to that- the V Body was modified on a budget that equates to Vending machine money compared to other GM makes budgets. However come 2005, the all new fully Holden-developed Zeta platform will debut in the VE Commodore and I don't doubt that exports to the US Will be something Holden will aim for, so I imagine there'll be a new improved GTO in about 2007, one that can compete with the likes of the CTS and BMW's.
I seem to recall reading in Car & Driver that this new platform will be sued in a new GTO in 2 years (I think). Hopefully, any screaming chickens will be deleted.

I'll never understand what it is that attracts Americans to ugly cars, I mean look at a the Cadillac CTS and Escalade, Pontiac Aztek, Hummer H2, Chevrolet Malibu Maxx and Saturn Vue for a few examples of GM's new "ugly squared-off lines that go absolutely nowhere" craze, though I must say that the Pontiac G6 is a welcome hint of style in the GM range.
What?

All the cars you mentioned are very good looking with the exception of the pontiak aztek. I guess everyone has their own idea of good looking, but results don't lie. Cadillac sales have skyrocketed because of their new age styling. This proves that people want something new and not the same old design with a makeover. This also explains the rockbottom gto sales. Why do you think that gm is frantically giving out hood scoops? They're trying to salvage at least some gto sales. I don't know what the cars are like in Australia, but if it's anything like England (traveled there about a year ago), then any v8 car will look amazing.

gm definitaly messed up on the desine of the gto, personaly i think it performs well, and sounds good, but its, to be quit frank, ugly. personaly i think they should go to the 1969 judge type styling, something that looks more like a muscle car. look at ford, while i think the new mustang is ugly, they have made alot of money on the muscle car type styling. since they came out i have seen 3 or 4 in the little town i live in. pontiac needs to fix the gto, and quick.

gm definitaly messed up on the desine of the gto, personaly i think it performs well, and sounds good, but its, to be quit frank, ugly. personaly i think they should go to the 1969 judge type styling, something that looks more like a muscle car. look at ford, while i think the new mustang is ugly, they have made alot of money on the muscle car type styling. since they came out i have seen 3 or 4 in the little town i live in. pontiac needs to fix the gto, and quick.
But WHY? GM were never trying to make a muscle car out of the 2004 GTO if they were, they'd have priced it against a Mustang. The GTO is supposed to be a civilised coupe to compete with the likes of the BMW 330Ci and Infiniti G35 and the Holden Monaro just happened to be sitting there, while Holden were keen to get thier product into the North American market.

You Septics are a strange bunch, I'll never understand why you insist on putting as many lines on a car as possible and follow it up with tacky scoops. Whatever it is has just uglified what was once a damn good looking car.

But WHY? GM were never trying to make a muscle car out of the 2004 GTO if they were, they'd have priced it against a Mustang. The GTO is supposed to be a civilised coupe to compete with the likes of the BMW 330Ci and Infiniti G35 and the Holden Monaro just happened to be sitting there, while Holden were keen to get thier product into the North American market.




I agree, the new GTO is an excellent car for its segment. Its a very fast very luxurious "sedan" at a very good price. I said sedan because even though its technically a coupe its chassis is that of a sedan. And I personally like its understated looks. Often opulent luxury equals lack of taste so its refreshing to see subtle luxury.

Heck even Clarkson loved it. He called it one of the best cars in the world and we all know how picky Clarkson is.

i think gm should have made the gto a muscle car style, gto was the first muscle car, i think they should have stuck with that attitude. im not saying that the gto is a bad car, i think its terrific car perfomance wise, im just saying that the gto should have gone back to its roots and at least resemble a gto from the muscle car era.

i think gm should have made the gto a muscle car style, gto was the first muscle car, i think they should have stuck with that attitude. im not saying that the gto is a bad car, i think its terrific car perfomance wise, im just saying that the gto should have gone back to its roots and at least resemble a gto from the muscle car era.
i have always and always will choose the camaro over the mustang.....the camaro handles way better....as far as the '07 camaro i saw a picture of what it might look like and personally i don't like the way it looks....but i do want them to bring the camaro back...it was wrong that they did stop making it :screwy:

If you think that a gto is more a luxury sedan then all out sports car, then gm obviously did something wrong. The gto is supposed to be a sports car, first and foremost, and the interior is just reflective of the price tag. The gto isn't more luxurious then a firebird. How could they have priced it less and kept the ls2 engine? It's allready the cheapest car with a ls2.

The GTO is supposed to be a civilised coupe to compete with the likes of the BMW 330Ci and Infiniti G35 and the Holden Monaro just happened to be sitting there, while Holden were keen to get thier product into the North American market.

A bmw 330 or g35 sedan are far from competitiors to the gto. The gto is faster by a huge stretch and a gto is NOT a luxury car. Maybe in Australia a pontiac is a luxury car, but not here in the U.S. Just because they are priced around the same dosn't mean they're competitiors.

I completely agree with adrenelinejunkie. The gto should represent a modern muscle car. Anything else doesn't deserve the gto badge. :sunglasse

The complaints of the GTO not staying to it's "roots" stop here. These are not very good pictures, but they prove my point. The first is of a 1965 GTO, and the second of a Grand Prix of the same year(maybe 1 year off). See a resemblence? Pontiac really did go back to the GTO's roots by styling it after the Grand Prix and putting a large motor in it....thats all there was to it. The silly "JUDGE" name didn't come until later, and holds little water with me. Oh, and sorry, but we weren't facing the Mustang off vs. the Camaro, your a little late for that. Plus the Mustang dominated the Trans Am races over the Camaro :p , which are all about handling(and of course power).

GTO
http://img70.exs.cx/img70/7996/df34ug.jpg
Grand Prix
http://img70.exs.cx/img70/3788/2030al.jpg
GTO's side flank
http://img70.exs.cx/img70/9715/4230qp.jpg
Grand Prix's side flank
http://img70.exs.cx/img70/2567/5034kn.jpg
See what I mean? Pontiac tried to recreate the GTO just as it debuted in 1964. Really not trying to be a jack-ass here, just pointing out what may have been overlooked. I like some camaros too('69 Z28) but you :eek: must admit that it was made only in response to Ford's Mustang.

Yes, the gto had a slow start but the judge ended all that. It was an abvious muscle car complete with spoiler and ram air. The judge was a true gto and one of the best muscle cars.

If you think that a gto is more a luxury sedan then all out sports car, then gm obviously did something wrong. The gto is supposed to be a sports car, first and foremost, and the interior is just reflective of the price tag. The gto isn't more luxurious then a firebird. How could they have priced it less and kept the ls2 engine? It's allready the cheapest car with a ls2.



A bmw 330 or g35 sedan are far from competitiors to the gto. The gto is faster by a huge stretch and a gto is NOT a luxury car. Maybe in Australia a pontiac is a luxury car, but not here in the U.S. Just because they are priced around the same dosn't mean they're competitiors.

I completely agree with adrenelinejunkie. The gto should represent a modern muscle car. Anything else doesn't deserve the gto badge. :sunglasse
In Australia there IS no Pontiac and hasn't been for about 40 years.


The Holden Monaro was designed as a luxury coupe, the spec levels if I am correct are at about Commodore Calais level and the car is FAR better put together than a Firebird inside, so yes it is a luxury car, more so than a Sports car.

i get what you are saying (Rod&Custom) but if you put the new gto and the 65 gto side by side, and didnt know what eather of them where, could you tell that the new one is desined off the older, maybe a few suttle details in the body resemble the older style but, is it enough to realy tell? meanwhile ford has a mustang from 1968 that has modernized lines and a new powerplant, even though i think the new mustang is ugly, its kind of brought back the muscle car so to speak, at least the style, think about it, the new mustang, the new camaro, the gto nameplate on the pontiac.

If you think that a gto is more a luxury sedan then all out sports car, then gm obviously did something wrong.


What re you talking about, the GTO is nice and spacious luxury sporty coupe alond the lines of an M3. It is by no means an all out sports car. The Vette is an all out sport car.

A gto is miles away from a m3. Let me repeat myself. A pontiac is not a luxury car. Have you ever been inside a last generation camaro/firebird? It has leather and all the features the current gto has. In no way is the gto more luxurious, except a small backseat that isn't even usable. You can find one new for well below 30k now. Gm should have made this an all out sports car, then it would actually make money.

Take away the corvette engine and gto logos and what do you have? A grand am coupe with upgraded suspension, in no way, shape or form a luxury car. The gto chassis itself is an ancient design, compared to bmw, which upgrades their components regularly.

How can you even compare a pontiac to a bmw? The comparison can be made between a cadillac cts-v and an m5 or 5 series, but certainly not some recycled pontiac.

A gto is miles away from a m3. Let me repeat myself. A pontiac is not a luxury car. Have you ever been inside a last generation camaro/firebird? It has leather and all the features the current gto has. In no way is the gto more luxurious, except a small backseat that isn't even usable. You can find one new for well below 30k now. Gm should have made this an all out sports car, then it would actually make money.

Take away the corvette engine and gto logos and what do you have? A grand am coupe with upgraded suspension, in no way, shape or form a luxury car. The gto chassis itself is an ancient design, compared to bmw, which upgrades their components regularly.

How can you even compare a pontiac to a bmw? The comparison can be made between a cadillac cts-v and an m5 or 5 series, but certainly not some recycled pontiac.

How can this car be a recicled pontiac when it was never a pontiac before. It was a Holden.

And yes I have seen the newest gen f-bodys and the interior fit and finish of the GTO is lightyears ahead.

And stop being snobish I'll compare a pontiac to BMW if I like. And again the GTO has been built along the same ideea as the M3. True the M3 will probably be better quality but its also far more expensive.

A gto is miles away from a m3. Let me repeat myself. A pontiac is not a luxury car. Have you ever been inside a last generation camaro/firebird? It has leather and all the features the current gto has. In no way is the gto more luxurious, except a small backseat that isn't even usable. You can find one new for well below 30k now. Gm should have made this an all out sports car, then it would actually make money.

Take away the corvette engine and gto logos and what do you have? A grand am coupe with upgraded suspension, in no way, shape or form a luxury car. The gto chassis itself is an ancient design, compared to bmw, which upgrades their components regularly.

How can you even compare a pontiac to a bmw? The comparison can be made between a cadillac cts-v and an m5 or 5 series, but certainly not some recycled pontiac.
The car is light years away from a Grand Am, in fact I see very little resemblance to the two myself, I mean the cars are built on completely different platforms- one is an RWD Opel platform, the other an FWD US designed platform.

To prove that the Pontiac GTO was designed as a luxury coupe, I'll do the following comparison. The Pontiac GTO was a Holden Monaro, as you would well know by now. Now the Monaro was designed for two markets originally- Australia and New Zealand.

Now in New Zealand (http://www.autopoint.co.nz), a Monaro CV8 costs NZ$76,900. A Pininfarina-built Peugeot 406 Coupe costs $73,900, an Audi A3 3.2 DSG 3 door costs NZ$79,900, a BMW 325Ci costs NZ$88,900. All these cars are luxury coupes.

Now the Holden Commodore Calais V8 that it is based off is a leather-lined luxury car intent on competing with cars from Germany as well as makes such as Alfa Romeo, MG-Rover and Lexus. The Calais V8 lists for only $67,800. So based on this you can see that Holden listed the Monaro $10,000 above even the most luxurious Commodore, so clearly the intent of this car was to be a luxury Coupe.

And to say that a Firebird/Camaro has anything on the GTO in the fit an finish department is completely ludicrous, as well as using far superior plastics, the GTO actually manages to look like it's been screwed together by people who know what they're doing, something the Firebird/Camaro never could seem to pull off.

Also, what's with the accusation of the backseat being useless? It may be useless to about 33% of people in the land of the cheeseburger, but if you're not obese and under about 6'2, then you should have no problem getting into the back seat of a GTO, even Jeremy Clarkson (Who is 6'4) called the backseat of the GTO useable.

I think what disappoints most people is that if they are gonna bring back the GTO, they should have been bold with it. I saw the commercial for the GTO before it came out, and I wasnt thinking.. "They are gonna bring it back as a weak looking offspring off the grand prix, and style it like a honda civic"... hell no, it looks like an import and that disgusts me. Ford brought back the old school mustang, but they didnt style it like a 73 mustang because they arent stupid. They wanted people to like it. The GTO should have been more "muscle car" like. The people that were interested in the GTO before they saw the design, werent interested anymore once they got to he dealership. And the people that are looking for that kind of style, are usually at the honda dealership. Thats why they cant sell the damn thing. Sure its fast, but who cares. Nobody wants it.

I think what disappoints most people is that if they are gonna bring back the GTO, they should have been bold with it. I saw the commercial for the GTO before it came out, and I wasnt thinking.. "They are gonna bring it back as a weak looking offspring off the grand prix, and style it like a honda civic"... hell no, it looks like an import and that disgusts me. Ford brought back the old school mustang, but they didnt style it like a 73 mustang because they arent stupid. They wanted people to like it. The GTO should have been more "muscle car" like. The people that were interested in the GTO before they saw the design, werent interested anymore once they got to he dealership. And the people that are looking for that kind of style, are usually at the honda dealership. Thats why they cant sell the damn thing. Sure its fast, but who cares. Nobody wants it.
The GTO IS an Import (If you're in the US), just like the Camaro and Firebird were. :rolleyes:

whatever dude, I know youve got foreign pride or whatever, but american cars are not imports. I am referring to ricers... acuras, hondas, toyotas.. true imports... thanks for the correction though.

whatever dude, I know youve got foreign pride or whatever, but american cars are not imports. I am referring to ricers... acuras, hondas, toyotas.. true imports... thanks for the correction though.
The GTO is not an American car, it is an Australian made car (Built in Victoria IIRC) built on a German platform (Opel V Body), using a Canadian made engine (LS1) and a gearbox made in Mexico (Tremec). All it has is a badge from Detroit.

The F-Bodies were deigned in America and built in Canada (Which makes it something of an Import)

And Ricers, kind of shows how ignorant you are, really.

you know its funny if you look at the original thread, this thread has derailed itself into a debate on is the gto worth a crap or not. personally ive driven the gto, i own an 02 ss camaro and a 03 zo6. they are all comparable, basicaly same interior, not a whole lot of difference. engine wise, not much diff between all 3. they all basically handle and perform the same with exception of the corvette, and if you say differnt then youve never actually driven and raced any of the 3, ppl need to stop reading magazines and making judgements. Proof is in the pudding. The gto has a decnet chassis and suspension but ive seen better, interior i think is awesome if you get the bells and whistles. the motor i think could have been tweaked a bit more especially with the extra weight that the car carries. The exterior of teh car is my only quam, it looks too much like a grandam i dont care how you slice it if youve ever seen the two together in a parking lot they look almost identical, they could have even put a scoop on the hood or something, its just too plain jane and too much like its cousins the grand am and grandprix. the exhaust was a bit of a let down. although sounding decent you dont pay 30+grand for a car to have dual pipes dump on one side of teh car, they should have done true duals all the way out. i think minus teh exterior and the added weight the new GTO is a nice car, but personally ill take my 02 ss camaro over it any day

yeah what happened with this thread wasn't it suppose to be between chevy and ford???

whatever dude, I know youve got foreign pride or whatever, but american cars are not imports. I am referring to ricers... acuras, hondas, toyotas.. true imports... thanks for the correction though.


as jimster said I hope you do realise that many Hondas are made in the US while the F-Bodies are made in canada.


And if you still think those Hondas are imports and Camaros are domestic you might want to send Merriam-Webster a letter because it seems they've been wrong all these years about their definition.
Main Entry: 1im·port
Pronunciation: im-'pOrt, -'port, 'im-"
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin importare to bring into, from in- + portare to carry -- more at FARE
:to bring from a foreign or external source; especially : to bring (as merchandise) into a place or country from another country


I would also need to speak with some of my teachers because aparently they all lied to us in the international business classes about imported goods.

Wow nice sarcasm neutrino. Cars like hondas and Toyotas will always be seen as imports. You're taking it to literally. The important thing is that the cars orginated and are designed overseas.

And Ricers, kind of shows how ignorant you are, really.

Seems like you're calling everyone ignorant all of a sudden, Jimster. The fact that he used the term ricers makes him ignorant? You're making yourself look really conceited and arrogant. :thefinger

Wow nice sarcasm neutrino. Cars like hondas and Toyotas will always be seen as imports. You're taking it to literally. The important thing is that the cars orginated and are designed overseas.



Seems like you're calling everyone ignorant all of a sudden, Jimster. The fact that he used the term ricers makes him ignorant? You're making yourself look really conceited and arrogant. :thefinger




No I'm not taking it too literally, I'm poiting out that a subjective label like "imports" its inapropriate in a Global Economy. Also this is a international forum so calling cars "imports" and some car domestics its inaproprite unless you specify the domestic market this aplies to.

And you are calling Jimster arrogant. Then I suggest also looking up in the dictionary the word hypocrite; you might find that it aplies rather well to your ego.

My ego? You're the one trying to make other people look bad with this trivial bs. And yeah Jimster is being an asshole by disregarding the opinion of anyone who disagrees with him. :thefinger

My ego? You're the one trying to make other people look bad with this trivial bs. And yeah Jimster is being an asshole by disregarding the opinion of anyone who disagrees with him. :thefinger



How are facts trivial BS. And you don't know anything about Jimster you've been here for a month while he's been here for years. I'm quite sure we know him better than you do.

And Jimsted did not disregard his opinion, what he did was correct his nationalistic bias.


Now stop using swear words and flipping us off.

Sorry I wasn't aware that asshole was considered a swear word. Nice how Jimster corrected his nationalistic bias by basically calling him stupid. He sets a great example. I suggest you take a quick brake and get of Jimster's balls for a while.

Sorry I wasn't aware that asshole was considered a swear word. Nice how Jimster corrected his nationalistic bias by basically calling him stupid. He sets a great example. I suggest you take a quick brake and get of Jimster's balls for a while.


No he called him ignorant and "as@#$%" is a swear word, always been one.


Now stop with the insults or be ready to receive a vacation.

I'm not trying to insult anyone. (well maybe except in the last post) The whole point of this forum is to see what other people have to say, so everyones opinion is valid. :biggrin:

By the way can someone be kicked from here?

I'm not trying to insult anyone. (well maybe except in the last post) The whole point of this forum is to see what other people have to say, so everyones opinion is valid. :biggrin:

By the way can someone be kicked from here?


Read the guidelines, insults are not tolerated. And to answer your second question: Yes.