corolla ae86 vs 240sx

Hello, When i searched i couldnt believe this comparision had not been made yet. Both the 240sx and the corolla gts (rwd ae86) are two of the best handling, inexpensive cars on the road. Toyota and nissan, are both good companies, and both cars are good looking, imo. After i looked into it, i discovered the corolla, which is hard to find in good condition, is almost as much money as the much newer nissan. Their reputations for great handling proceed them, my quetion is: which is the better handling car? And if we can establish that objectively, then id be interested to know why people like either better based on subjective opionions.

The AE86 Trueno doesn't handle as well as you may think. The 240SX (Silvia) is definitely better, at least in stock form.

i say the 240, the nissan engines (imo) have better potential and a larger

He asked about handling, not about engines. :)

Handling wise I think the slight edge goes to the 240SX...but there's like a 550 lb difference between the cars so you must take that into acount...the AE86 weighes like 2050 lbs while the 240SX S13 coupe weighes in at 2600 lbs

you must watch a lot of initial D :iceslolan

In stock i'd have to agree that the nissan is a better handling car, but with the right suspension tuning and modification almost any car can be made to handle like a dream.
If it were a choice between which to buy i'd definitely go with the AE86 coz its much rarer and unique, looks better in my opinion and has a reputation as good as the nissan.

Agreed, the AE86 Trueno has a bad-ass factor to it and I'd definitely take it over a Silvia. Besides, with some chassis and suspension upgrades, it'll handle as well as anything out there.

Well, the AE86 is a lighter platform with more compact dimensions and less suspension travel at the front, so it is a nimble car. However, the S13 has the advantage of a well thought out multi-link rear-suspension, more sporting damping, and larger width tires.

However, the S13 does have a critical weakness in its front suspension design. There's a lot of travel in the front suspension because of pick-up points and control arms designed more with a comfortable ride than true sporting potential in mind. As such, the S13 has a lot of roll at the nose and not much at the tail, leading to some pretty piggish understeer when pushed. The AE86 tends to skitter and hop when pushed, with a lot of tire howl and lateral sliding.

And, in reality, neither is a particularly good handling car at the price. AE86's have practically no lateral grip, and S13's plow like Sister Sara's mule. A 3rd generation Camaro actually posts better numbers and has better handling characteristics than either car (don't believe me? look at the American Sedan class in the SCCA) thanks to a low-slung wide chassis and a very well done unequal length A-arm front suspension.

Well, the DSM 1st gens had a narrow track coupled with tall strut suspension, ergo roll. Couple that with a very nose-heavy layout and dangblasted strut suspension and they basically love to dig on the outside front tire and lift the inside rear, all the while wanting to turn turtle.

It's pretty funny from a chassis man's perspective to hear riceboys talking about how great the handling is on their cars, and then take a look at all the band-aids they throw at the cars. They rush to ultra stiff coil-overs, massive swaybars, huge wheels & tires, and polyurethane bushings without actually taking the time to realize why the car doesn't turn when they want it to or why the car just seems to get worse and worse.

The best way to tighten up a chassis is not to stiffen up the parts that move, but to reduce the range of movement. This is why F1 cars don't have hinged or pivoting suspensions anymore and instead use flexible carbon-fiber blades for suspension. More control over movement, more gradual movement, less roll, dive, and droop in the chassis, more neutral and less easily unbalanced chassis.

The corolla is more responsive which in turn makes it better when it comes to handling. Stock that is, aftermarket it would depend on everything that's been dumped in there and the driver.

How is it more responsive? Or are you just throwing that out there to sound informed?

E30 BMW 3 Series are pretty damn good. The 240SX is fine if you have the money to upgrade the suspension.

The 240SX is fine if you have the money to upgrade the suspension.

It doesnt take much to make the handle well...w/my 240SX I got springs and shox and it made a world of a difference and I was beating up on S2k's, M Coupe's and such at the road events...

E36 BMW is a pretty good handling car, and the 316i compact version is coming into affordable status pretty well now. The 3rd and 4th generation Chevy Camaro Z28 and its Pontiac Firebird Trans-Am stablemate are also very good handling machines (just with slightly less friendly rides).

FC RX7's also handle quite well, although their tails have a tendency to bite and then step out as opposed to a nice gradual slide. I could also recommend a Z31 Nissan 300ZX, even though that particular generation can be coerced into sudden snap oversteer.

But, I stand by my assessment that the best choice for the money is a 3rd or 4th generation Camaro. These cars are absolutely dynamite on a road course and tuning the suspension is relatively simple compared to many others.

Actually, the Fox-body 'Stangs aren't being mentioned because they are terrible handling cars. They understeer into the corner and then snap into oversteer at the exit, all the while rolling and howling like a stuck pig.

Grassroots Motorsports Magazine had an excellent article a few months back when they started their project autocross Fox body. They went very in depth into not only what the Mustang's handling problems were, but also into why the Mustang had these problems (explaining things like the poorly placed roll center) and how to cure them and in what classes of competition the cure is legal.

The cure being to fully replace the K-member of the Fox body Mustang so that the control arms can be relocated.

You gotta remember, the Fox-body Mustang started out as the 1978 Ford Fairmont sedan. It can be made sporting, but is a very flawed platform from the factory. The front end rolls into the corner, understeering badly, then the non-parallel four-link rear end binds up in side to side movement and the rear end breaks loose, sending the car into a tight and embarassing spin.

That is the essence of Fox Mustang handling. Push then snap.

Wow, I'm learning a lot. I always thought that the Mustangs and Camaros were about even in handling, but I guess not. I know Gran Turismo 3 is just a game, but in it, the Camaro SS actually handles really well as long as you take it easy on the brakes.

Thanks again for a detailed explenation I greatly appriciate them(they are quite rare to find sometimes..)
I may have to check out that issue(ammungst others that are on my list). I have only had it for a few months now...

have you driven either of those cars? You can notice the response more on the corolla.

I've driven a 1989 SOHC 240SX hatchback and a 1985 GT-S coupe. The coupe was numb on center, though wheel feedback improved as I pressed harder into the corner. The problem was as I was pressing the car was giving up more and more in the way of lateral grip to the point where I realized I'd have to point the car about two feet inwards of a corner's apex in order to make sure I clip the apex properly.

That's flawed handling.

The 240SX wasn't any better. Lots of plowing understeer that surprisingly could be cured by moderate trail-braking. Trail-braking is a damned FF technique. I shouldn't need to be pitching the car on its nose every time I run a corner to get it to rotate off the center. A good handling car will take a set in a corner and roll back evenly from the front to the back, smoothly without drama or difficulty. At most, a little countering at the exit to walk the car away from the apex is acceptable.

Here's another little clue that the beloved Hachi-roku is a sub-par handling machine. Next time to start throwing one through switchbacks, take a look at how often your wrists cross.. Any car that needs that much steering input mid corner is flawed.

How hard would it be to correct these built in problems in the 240? Are they just factory tunings to make the car safer or just flat out huge flaws that are a pain to correct(ie foxbody stang)?

Here's something simple to answer. People that are actually looking for those type of cars, are they planning on keeping them stock?

nbw, curing the 240SX really depends on what you're going to do with the car. A pure track 240SX can live with the high spring rates and stiff dampers that would potentially cure the problem, however, this equals a car that's very hard to read and is easily upset by berms, curbs, or mid-corner bumps (for evidence, consider the final corner at Sebring). For a more pure solution, many 240SX drivers in top level classes have gone to fully replacing the front suspension (as per SCCA GT3 and GT2 rules) with double wishbone or unequal length A-arm setups as part of a pure tube chassis.

Interestingly enough, these cars often have NASCAR style 3-link rear suspensions, but there's a whole different reasoning behind that.

This is very interesting, seems the reputation of these cars is based more on the fact someone said they were "the best" and a bunch of other people adopted that point of view and then repeated it over and over. So many people have said it at this point, i certainly believed it!

I like the FC rx7 quite a bit, but im not sure it would be considered reliable at its age. And an older BMW may be affordable, but im not sure the maintainence/repair would be (at least in the US, where i live). I've also heard good things about the mazda miata, but that doesnt come in hard top, which is impractical for most of us. I would have inquired about the mazdaspeed protege and the integra type R, but sadly they are not in the price range.

Thank you everyone for your input. So, if the 240sx and corolla gts are not the best handling cars (in the class), which are? Do you have any other suggestions for cars with superior handling? Something with similar characteristics to the 240sx and corolla: practical (hard top), reasonably dependable, and inexpensive.

One more thing i wanted to ask about: Does the S14 240 have the same suspension problems as the S13?

This is very interesting, seems the reputation of these cars is based more on the fact someone said they were "the best" and a bunch of other people adopted that point of view and then repeated it over and over. So many people have said it at this point, i certainly believed it!

As much as I love Initial D, it spawns some of the worst fanboys. Just the mere notion that a Camaro outhandles an AE86 is blasphemy to some of these kids.

As far the best picks...

But, I stand by my assessment that the best choice for the money is a 3rd or 4th generation Camaro. These cars are absolutely dynamite on a road course and tuning the suspension is relatively simple compared to many others.

I'm in no position to disagree, but I believe that E36 BMW 3 Series are very good as well. The price is a bit higher though, and maintenance can be costly if the car wasn't cared for properly.

Thank you everyone for your input. So, if the 240sx and corolla gts are not the best handling cars (in the class), which are? Do you have any other suggestions for cars with superior handling? Something with similar characteristics to the 240sx and corolla: practical (hard top), reasonably dependable, and inexpensive.

http://ww2.scca.com/Solo.php
This years nationals results in SCCA soloII(ie autocross)
That can help give you a good idea on the food chain of sports cars.
SS, as, bs, cs, ds, es, fs ect ect are all stock classes. SS=SuperStock. this is where you will see cars like c5 corvettes, vipers, porsche 911's, fd rx7's and other high class rides. AS is a step down in the scale, c4 vettes, wrx's s2000's or blah blah blah and so on til you get to the last class with lesser sports cars
SM is street modifieds. The ultimate run what you brung class. SM2 is the same thing but with 2seat cars(or cars that are in SM but are just too lightweight IIRC).

Haha, the Z06 wiped up everything in Super Stock. :)

layla's keeper, what do u think of the bmw e30 suspension? oh and what u said about crossing wrists in the corolla, isnt that why the circuit, gymkhana, drift and touge racers have the super long steering arms? and also what do u know about and think of the miatas suspension? thanks

Well, let's tackle this one piece at a time.

#1 - BMW E30 chassis: The E30 is a chassis infamous for oversteer. The short trailing arms of BMW's patented "Z Axle" suspension made for some excellent if challenging handling characteristics. I've often heard E30 drivers compare the E30 to being "A little 911 with the engine in the wrong place." This suspension, though, was favorable enough that BMW kept it around long after the E30 gave way to the E36 by using it under the rear end of the Z3 and M Roadster.

Naturally, this is why M Roadsters have such a fierce reputation as being difficult to drive. All the power of an E36 M3 in an E30 suspension that just happens to have a shorter wheelbase and lighter curb weight. :eek7:

#2 - longer AE86 steering arms: You hit it on the nose there. Longer control arms, along with re-geared racks and reconfigured spindles, are all common parts sold to hardcore AE86 racers to reduce the woefully large number of lock to lock turns in the stock steering. If I'm not mistaken, TRD sold a quality set for some years.

#3 - Miata suspension: The Miata's one true flaw is in its soft springing and weak-kneed dampers. Miatas have a history of rolling around, pitching themselves sideways in corners much like the bias-ply shod roadsters of yore (MGB, Lotus Elan, Triumph TR6, Fiat 124, and so on) that it is heavily influenced by. However, the Miata's hidden secret is that behind those 185/60-14's (Miatas also have painfully little tires stock) lies a wonderfully thought out double wishbone suspension front and rear. With a little of a drop, stiffer shocks, and wider tires, Miatas become dominant autocross cars. In fact, Miatas are one of the ubiquitous cars at autocross events nationwide. They really deserve to be the world's best selling sports car of all time. The MGB's record couldn't have been surpassed by a finer car.

I'd love to own a miata... I just cant do convertables around here with SUV's being the vehicle of choice by... everyone. lol

I hate to keep bothering you Layla's Keeper with random car suspension questions but do you have any thoughts, tips or opinions about 2nd gen(FC) rx7's?

what the guy said before about corolla being more responsive could be correct in this way - take autoX, touge and circuits - in these situations, going from turning hard left to hard right (like slalom) is often required.... considering that the 2 cars (ae86 & 240sx) have the same basic layout (FR), and the only difference is about 500lb, the lighter car will be more responsive, relative to inertia, momentum, impulse and such.

Until you consider that the Corolla is taller, narrower, and softer sprung with smaller diameter sway bars, not to mention the two cars have very different suspension geometry.

Center of gravity and suspension geometry are two very critical things to consider when talking about a car's handling characteristics. Not to mention let's discuss stock tires for the two cars. True, we're not talking Z rated Gatorbacks on either car, but the difference between the 14" wheels and I believe 165/60 tires on the AE86 compared to 15" wheels and 195/60's on the 240SX base model gives the 240SX a distinct advantage in handling stats. Not necessarily feel, but certainly in performance.

Anyone know if the s14 240sx has the same suspension problems that lead to the "plowing understeer", that the s13 has? Thanks

The S14 actually has several major improvements over the S13 in its chassis stock for stock.

The list of improvements reads as follows.

- wider track
- 120lb per inch front coil springs as opposed to 102
- 27mm front sway bar as opposed to 25mm
- SE model received 205/55R16 tires as opposed to S13's SE model 205/60R15's.

Even though S14's weigh in at 2813lbs compared to the S13's 2730lbs, they have markedly sharper turn in and much more neutral handling. The only downside to an S14 is that the base models do not have the SE's available 16mm rear sway bar. All S13's had this, except for fastback SE models which had a 21mm rear sway bar.

This and more interesting information on the Nissan 240SX can be found in the December 2003 issue of Grassroots Motorsports magazine, which had a 7 page article outlining the history, setup, specs, and tuning tips for Nissan 240SX's.

Thank you so much for the information!

s14 ownz you! lolz j/p my car handles great compared to crappy handling cars. but compared to great handling cars, it just handles so so. i have a very stiff suspension setup and as long as the road is smooth, it handles great. but since i live in nyc. the roads are like craters. and this car takes bumps like shit. esp with the stiff suspension. so that is exactly what layla keeper said.

Excellent poits layla, but I would like to add that there is one other way to fix or at least atenuate the problems like the plow understeer of the 240sx: Very fast response suspension, this should keep the front wheels in check without the use of very stiff setups and all their problems. Of course those systems come from big guys like ohlin/moton/penske... and cost and arm and a leg plus the cost of proper tuning and they will still suffer from the bad geometry. The use of such suspension allowed the EVO MR to come softer sprung that the rest of the evo VIII series.

Oh and another question Layla, are you sure F1 cars use carbon blades for suspension because I could swear I saw pushrod style suspension on them when they had the shell off.

Okay, Neutrino, you're close but far away on the F1 suspension. F1 suspensions, nowadays, no longer use the complex pushrod bellcrank damper setups popular during the time of Mansell and Senna. Today's cars actually use torsion bars connected directly to the pushrods for damping whereas the suspension arm itself is the spring. It's a much lighter setup (seriously, delete the coil-over and you've taken a couple of pounds off the car) and offers much better control over the damping/spring rate. Plus this way the FIA knows no-one is using computer controlled active suspension.

Thanks for the update Layla, It seems that i was out of date.

"And, in reality, neither is a particularly good handling car at the price."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Ain't that the truth. :)

Haha, I'm going to necro this old thread (I'm the OP btw). I haven't logged in in several years and found this thread randomly in a search.
Anyway, sometime after this thread I bought the AE86. It was nearly showroom condition, red, hatch, gt-s, bone stock and no options. I got a fair price from the daughter of the original (lady) owner. Loved it! Loved the way it drove (never got a chance to try the 240sx though). Kept it for about four years, then sold it to pay for my last year of college (for nearly twice what I paid.
It's been ~4/5 years since I parted with it and I started looking for another one that was as nice, but I don't see any clean, original cars anymore. Mine was "concours d'elegance" condition compared to stuff that's 3x the price now and totally molested. Oh well, fun memories anyway. I would love to post pics but they are on an ancient inactive Sanyo Katana II w/ no way to get them off.
Thanks for letting me reminisce. I know gravedigging threads is bad form. But, at least if someone stumbles upon it they can see how the story ended, and it was fun for me to tell. Cheers!