Read if ur wondering about the 3sgte swap

I'm writing this so people stop making threads about it...input as much as you want for those of you that actually know about it...I'm getting done with helping on the swap for a friend, planning on doing it in my car soon enough
here we go
(taken off toyotacelicaonline) added my input at the bottom

3S-GTE Swap

In this space I would like to have a complete writeup on a 3S-GTE swap. The 3S-GTE is a the potent engine found in the All-Trac/GT-4 Celicas and Turbo MR2s. With anywhere from 180-260 Hp from 2.0L (and potential for far more) it is one of Toyota's most potent 4-cylinders out there. The good news? ...the 4-6th generation Celica chassis was built to take the engine and it bolts into existing engine mounts (for those with the 5S). The bad news is the cost...expect to spend at least $5000 for the swap.

What engine choices are there?

From my understanding there are 3 generations of the 3S-GTE offered either domestically or abroad.


1st Generation (190 HP) 1988-89 ST165 (Celica GT4/All-Trac)
2nd Generation(200 HP) 1990-93 ST185 (Celica GT4/Alltrac)
1990-199x(?) SW20 (MR2 Turbo)
3rd Generation (260 HP) 1994-99 ST205 (Celica GT4)
Note: not released in U.S.

Needless to say that each generation had significant improvements over the last (such as larger throttle bodys, better turbo and intercooler designs) and it is better to go with the later versions if possible. Unfortunately, the third generation was quite rare (meaning pricey) and for those of you who need to meet emissions in the US...this engine was never tested, and it may not meet national requirements (but more on that later...). Even rarer versions were sold in the 2500 or so cars sold under the Carlos Saintz/Group A/RC names which were fully built rally motors with a few advanced features "turned off" or present but not functioning.

How is the transmission handled?

Well, the 3S-GTE does bolt on to and works with the transmission that comes with the 5SFE (2.2L). Whether it will last under the additional power, it is not known. Unfortunately as far as I have heard...Toyota never mated the 3S-GTE to a FWD transmission. If you choose to use a stronger transmission you can use either the transmission from a MR2 or the rare V6 Camry transmission, both of which bolt on to the 3SGTE engine

Blkrx7 notes that if you do choose to use an MR2 tranny as opposed to one from a GT-Four:

Hoses don't line up of course, they use diffrent spigots on the MR-2 motor to line up with those hoses. The I/C is useless, and a couple of systems (like the intake) are in slightly different locations. It makes for more headache.

How much will this cost me?

Equipment: Engine, LHD wiring harness (extremely rare...RHD Celicas have the wiring enter on the other side of the firewall) and ECU
approximate cost: $2000.00US

Labor: Expect around 20 hours minimum for the mechanical part of the swap. 20 hours at an hourly rate of say $50.00/hour...
approximate cost: $1000

Custom parts/equipment: stock exhaust wont bolt up to the 3S engine, so you will need a custom exhaust which accomadates the new engine ($500-1000). You will need a clutch which can handle the extra power. 3SGTE plate with a 5SFE disc ($500).
approximate cost: $1000-1500

Transmission/Motor mounts: simplifying for this estimate we will assume for now that the transmission used is from a 5S-FE (no cost). The engine mounts to the same mounts as the 5SFE...so again assuming no cost. Not of course that using a V6 Camry or MR2 tranny opens up a whole new set of costs.
approximate cost: $0-up

Misc. Parts:You're going to need to get a hold of a Celica 4wd Turbo sensor pack (If it didn't come with the motor). Turbo Pressure sensor, AFM, fuel pump resistor packs, ick, more sensors than I can possibly name. This is where things get sticky, you're going to need to source a LOT of spare parts, and depending on where you get them from I think a reasonable margin for error, and price in maybe $500 of electrical parts? Including wiring, connectors, sensors, ect. ect. ect.. You will also want to replace the water pump and timing belt (est. $150 with labor?)while the engine is out of the car.
approximately: $650

Thus we come to a grand total of $4650.00.

Note that this isnt taking in to account any problems, tax, broken parts, installer incompetance, intercooler placement or anything that might pop up. Nor does it take into account upgrades that you may wish to do if you plan to later modify the 3S-GTE. You may also expect to pay a bit extra to insure register and drive your car after the swap.

----

received over email...."a cheaper alternative for the ECU/Wiring situation would be to use your stock ECU to control chassis electrical functions, and an aftermarket standalone engine management system to run the engine. A new Haltech could run you $1000 to do this. A Wolf, maybe $750. Also, this will eliminate the need for some of those expensive sensors like AFM."

Is this legal?

This really depends on where you live. Emissions requirements vary by state (and country) with California being the most strict. In California you are only allowed to swap in an engine that is from a same year or newer California car. This most likely mean a 1st or 2nd generation 3S-GTE depending on your car as the 3rd generation was never released in the US. You also must have all original smog equipment still on and funtioning in the car. I have no idea what it takes in any other states or elsewhere in the world. I would recomend doing some major research before beging this swap.

I also have no idea what it takes to insure a car with this done to it. You may not be insure a car with a typical insurance policy. ...and before you go and forget to tell your insurance company about the swap consider that the "wrong engine" in your car may void your insurance entirely if you are in an accident or your car is stolen.


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basically the swap isnt as easy as most of you thought...yes the motor bolts up directly to ur car and sits nice and tight....but wipe that shitty grin off your face becuase you didnt have to spen $100+ on a motor mount relocation kit like al those other honda bitches did.... becuase you now have to worry abotu the shitty ass wiering harness....the swap is a lot harder than most people think...if you havnt done a couple of swap yourself, or at least have the toyota green book (wiering book) then your SOL and ur gunna be asking me or other poeple on this board all the time on what to finish

for all you 16 year old kids that come on here going "i wanan do the swap" forget it, you probably dont have the money/time/ experience to do this swap...stick with ur 5sfe becuase in realtvie aspects its not that bad of a motor...youll be killing any hona that not equipped with vtec or thats failry new with just intake headers and exhaust... if you really want to, go on ebay and make your own turbo kit for ur 5sfe from 3sgte parts....its not that hard

how fast do you thunk it will be??

i think im just going to take it to the pros when i get money.

admin make this a stickey post please...youll be gratly appreciated by me and others...cuz i hate responding to the same topic over and over

Just to comment on the last comment on the original post the fastest quarter mile Mr2 at one point was a turbo charged 5sfe!!!!!!!!!! its been done in a number of 2s I know about and is a hell of a lot cheaper and easier than a swap. People have also mated a 3sge or gte head to a 5sfe and turboed from there. Even saw one with a vvti head on it. I've helped with a couple Honda swaps and not to knock anyone who has or is doing a swap but I've never seen a swap were the car didn't have problems that drove the owner crazy. Unless u are a excellent mechanic or have plenty of money and another car don't swap u're motor buy the car with the motor u want.

Okay, when I got my 1990 celica gt I felt like I was on the top of the food chain, untill the LS VTEC and CR VTEC cars starting kicking everyone's ass, then I went into hiding and in my cave with my black Celica and I started gathering information and stats untill I arrived at the point where I am now! I'm now ready to put all my calculations into the car. I was going to build my own 3SGTE but I met a friend with a 3SGTE in a dead celi and I intend on getting the parts from the car once I buy it, and I work in a parts store, I don't want to say all that I know now so that someone can beat me to my goal! I know that the GT 2.2L tranny can bolt into the 3SGTE but I don't know if the ST Tranny has the same capability this is all I need to know right now, so please deliever this info whoever has it.

st tranney dosent bolt up and fyi ud be about the 20th person to do it, i completed helpeing someone do this swap about a good 3 months ago...

Heh heh hee, well thatnks for the information, I know I wouldn't be the first person to swap the 3SGTE into a front wheel drive Celi, (where do you think I got the idea from?!) but like I said i'm not saying what i'm up to because most people think only one way, oblivious to other routes, so I know that people do that swap...... but no one I know has done what I am going to do.....so keep an open mind and thanks.

Okay me and this guy had this different information so someone else put the info if they have it, what block did the 1990-1993 toyota celica gt 2.2L 5sfe, the 1989-1992 2.0 3sfe come with? And is there a difference in the crankshaft of the 2.0 3sfe camry engine, 3GLEC (supercharged 2.0 that came in the mr2 and maybe celica in the late 80s), and the 2.0 3SGTE celi All Track engine? I know they have the same fuckin crank and almost identical block but someone tells me no! Someone told me that the celi has an ALUMINUM BLOCK and I know my shit is CAST IRON! So please help me out!

the 5sfe is aluminum, the 3sge and 3sgte are cast iorn...no the crank and bore/stroke are all the same on the 3sge and 3sgte...its diffrent on the 5sfe than the otehr 2

Hey, yup your right this is one of those 16 actually 15 year old whose think of doing that. Im getting my car tomorrow and the guy who had it B4 did a crap load of burnouts so i expect the tranny and or engine to be messed up a lil so once that goes im gonna get a 3S-GTE for it. :P but i willdo this cause ill get help from my causin that owns a toyota supra his site's at http://www.thebluesupra.com and hes done engine work and stuff to his car so once i get mine and the money and stuff im gonna ask him if he'll help me. :P Ohh yeah Its a 1991 Toyota Celica GT-S so hopefully ill be all set for the bolts and stuff. :D

Here's a site that's got some pretty rad engines.

www.jdm-motor-engines.com

could you use a 91- up mr2 3sgte motor with a 5spd tranny and put it in a 90 celica gt with a 5sfe??

yes you could, the wiering harness is a lil diffrent tho, it would probably have to be shortened, as well as new halfshafts need to be made becuase the mr2 ones will not work and im not quite sure if the 5sfe ones will work...but your 5sfe tranny will mate up to the 3sgte, just use the 3sgte flywheel and disk and 5sfe plate

which way is easier

using ur 5sfe tranny for sure, all you have to do is use the 3sgte flywheel and disk and use the 5sfe plate, and ur tranny will bolt right up, and u can use ur existing half shafts withought custom fabricating new ones

so would it be cheaper to buy the all trac 3sgte or buy the mr2 motor and do it that way?? also would a good machanic be able to do this kinda work? i have so one thats going to do it but i dont know if a good machanic can do it? or a certain person is needed

meh either way its relativly the sam,e scept the wiereing harness for the mr2 motor is alot longer sand its a little diffrent but still works the same way(with the same sensors) so id really try to get an alltrack motor then go for the mr2 is u really cant find one...

keep in mind with this swap youll never pass smog again, unless u find a usdm motor u wont have an egr valve to pass visual inspection

i live in cincinnati ohio and we really dont have to many problems with smog or anything like that. we do have emissions check every two years but i think they getting rid of that

every state has a smog, some are just stricter than others (omg i hate california) but yea you still wont pass smog in any of the 50 states with this swap and it wont be street legal/be able to register it

okay thanx alot. um how do ppl get away with doing the swaps/ have you done one?

i havent actualy DONE one myself, when i posted this articel no, before winter break i started helping my friend with his 3sgte swap, so yes i have HELPED with one, about 1/4 was done withoguht me there tho but im sure if you gave me the motor i could get it done in a week or so

Hey, looking for a place to get a "fairly" new/slightly used 5SFE engine. I have a 1990 Celica GTS and the engine on it has some serious issues. Going to replace it and attempt to lay some rubber down with it in the future. I'm looking to see if there may be a 6 spd tranny out there anywhere that will work with this engine also. If so please post a link!!
Thanks,
Jones

nope no 6 speed tranny that i can think of, except a st 215 cadelina that had a 3sgte witch had one but ud NEVER find one anyway so dont bother looking, ur better off getting an sw20 lsd tranny

I have a line on a 3sgte from an Mr2, and am really interested in buying it from the guy. I bought my 92 Celica GT from a guy I work with, and it's a great car. His brother (and whole family) is a toyota/lexus guy. He's had not 1, but 2 Mr2 turbo's. He mentioned that his first one got T-boned at an intersection, but the front was damaged. He said the car will start and move, but it's totaled from a bodywork standpoint. I asked him if I could by the engine.

I've read that the hardest part of the swap is the wiring harness and ECU. Would a MR2 harness and ECU work in a Celica? I imagine I could offer to buy the whole car off the guy, just to get it out of his way. Then I would have the engine, MR2 tranny, etc. Would still need a 3sgte turbo manifold for a celica?

I would look for an MR2 body, with a blown engine or something, but my parents (who pay my insurance) refuse to let me get a RWD car. So this is really the best route for me to go.

Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.

yea its all swappable buts a lttle harder to do, the entire wiering harness needs to be modifyed becuase of the length of the wires, and yes yoiur need a new DP but the manifolds will work...youll also need a new exhast system

you can use the mr2 tranney ( i would suggest that anyway) but im not sure if u can use ur axles or not
1. im not sure if the case on the tranney is in the smae spot
2. there only rated at 135 Hp...
so plan on snapping a few halfshafts along the life of the car

good luck the weiring is a behatch

when i do the 3sgte swap will i be able to drive my car for everyday use with no problem

yea assuming uve done everything correct and have bought all new things (like new halfshafts and wheel hub bearings etc) u gotta remeber ur WHOLE CAR is only rated at 135 Hp and its a unibody chassis so with almost double the Hp your gunna start tearin shit up faster, suspension, tires, evertyhign is going to wear faster

Hey,

I know a ton of people have read this and i have been doing some serious searching and decision making and I really don't think i'm going to do a swap. I'm going to get my 5SFE rebuilt and tweaked with extras, and going from there. Just have one question, from the 3SFE what won't the 5SFE take?

Flywheel? Tranny? Fuel Rail/Pump? Water pump?

Are there really that many diffrences to these engines?

Thanks for all the help.


Jones

i have no idea what your asking, re phrase that

keep in mind you can rebuiuld with 3sgte parts, the bore/stroke are identical in the 2 motors, but a general rule is never buy pistons before u rebuild, find out what block work has to be done (i.e. just honing or does it have to be bored) cuz if u buy stock pistons and they cant just hone the block ur s.o.l (unlesss u plan on pre buying like 40 over already)

does anybody know where i can find clear bumper lights for a 95 celica st without fog lights?? or do the 96-97 bumper lights work??

this may have already been said, but what about the ecu? do you have to do any other wiring for the swap?

does anyone know if would be safe to put a small shot of nitrous in a 95 celica st (7afe) with 40k miles on it???

Just to clarify, the 3sfe motor is the 1.6 that came in the alltrac celica gt, as well as the mr2 turbo? ANd if I were to swap it into a 91 celica gts it is recomended to get the trans with the motor, as it will all fit into the same arrangment in the car, correct?

Thanks, Ryan.

^id only reccomend nitrus only if you have ntohing else to do on your engine, turbo it, dont get that

and no the 3sfe is a 2.0 liter engine

why would you swap in an engine with less potential then the one you have in it?

we are doing an engine swap out of a 1991 celica that originally had a 4afe and we are trying to put the 3sgte in but the top 2 motor mounts do not align. Is there a certin place where i can get the motor mounts to convert it over? please respond ASAP.

are you talking about the cam cover side and tranny mount

we grinded down the cam cover side
use the 3sgte tranny mounts the 4afe ones wont work

be more specific

on the upper motor mounts do we have to make custom brackets? we put the right cross member on so the bottom tranny mounts do line up but we are wondering about the upper motor mounts.

A.C.I. Speed & Sound
Sarasota FL (941)-955-1755

no the upper mounts from the 3sgte should work, there should be no fabrication necessary, the only thing that is scety is the mount on the cam cover side, sometimes it tends to hit the cam cover, you can just grind down some of the metal to take it off

pm me and well discuss this

hi

i am asking about the stock 3sge tranny ..will it be able to handle the 3sgte power and for how long..

cos i am in middle of the swap ,, i stop it all because of the tranny ..idont know what to do....

shall i fix the 3sge tranny or what????

pls help me to solve this...

Thanks for all

why dont u just use the 5sfe tranny, yes you can use the 3sge tranny but you gotta take the shift linkage out of ur 5sfe tranny and the speedo gear and swap it over

why dont u just use the 5sfe tranny, yes you can use the 3sge tranny but you gotta take the shift linkage out of ur 5sfe tranny and the speedo gear and swap it over


hi
thanks for replay ....
i fixed the 3sge tranny but with 3sgte clutch and presser
when i want to move the car big sound comming from the gear and the car moving slowly with encreasing sound..

we take the car up ..the tires moving with out that sound...

so shall i fix the 3sge clutch and presser..:screwy:

plz help...

thanks

that usually means somethings not right...lol no real way to diagnose w out taking a look, is everything working correctly tho?

HEy guys i just did a swap on my auto 92 celica GT I put in a 5sfe from a 2001 camry and it rews quite fast on the freway BUt the brob is that before 95 car geting speed like mad but once it hits 95 it stalls for some reason it just dont want to go higher i can feel that car has alots power to puch further but its like something is holding it back.

If any one knows please give me a hint.

91 celica st ( thanks alot..... the gear prop. solve ) but:

i swaped the engine(3sgte) with the 3sge gear but when i start it its working for 5 to 8 seconds only..

i changed the turbo press. sensor its same...

my Q? is : is there any effect for the third plug in the ecu i mean the one going to the dashboard coz we not change dash. wiring we use the orginal ( 3sge )

or there is some thing else...

plz help me out i want to drive this motor...

thanks for all..

wait u used the original wiering harness for the 3sge and 3sgte ecu?
if so the sensor your talking about is tvis(i belive) and thats why your car is not properly running, all the butterflys are either closed and starving it or open and flooding it w air....im betting the ladde

you need the 3sgte wiering harness, with a 3ste ecu, nothing less, a 3sge ecu will work on a 3sgte w a tvis elimination plate but you wont have a knock sensor and you dcould dt like a bitch



FYI im looking for a 6th gen gt to swap a 3sgte into in the next few months...

thanks alot .....

i know i am trublling u ...

finally the car runs but .. do u have any idea about changing or rewire the orginal ( 5sfe ) fuel pump.. because , when the rpm reach 4000 and boost meter on 1 psi , the engine had fuel cut ..

still i dont know the power of the engine because of that cut

is it cutting completely, or does it seem like its running out of fuel(starving)

ALOT of people with this swap have a problem of not being able to revv past 4000 rpm, most are fixed by replacing the wiereing harness (but imn sure iu dont want to do that :) ....was the wiering harness cut when you bought it or was it complete? look on the other forums of how they corrected it, i belive most have a bad harness, ill double check...hopefully thatas not the case

wait are you using the stock 5sfe fuel pump? that can only handle about 8 psi of boost, you need to change that, go on ebay and get a walbro 255lp supra pump, or find one over 150 lp

btw that thrid plug is a dash plug, if its not plugged in you wont have any readouts

Would a 2SGTE ST205 motor fit in a 2000 celica?

you mean 3sgte? if so yes, but its not worth it. alot of changes are needed.

Well, i want to do a engine swap into my 2000 Celica GT-S. I have heard these motors dont go well with a turbo. Do you have any suggestions?

the 2zz is the best engine you can get with the 7th gen. as long as you run low boost youll be able to turbo it. even getting your block fully built prolly wont cost as much as a 3sgte swap and will be stronger than a stock 3sgte.

Here's a couple of really nice 3S-GTE links:

http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/power.htm

http://www.mr2-tech.com/bgb/mechanical/index_mechanical.htm

Thanks to the MR2 forum... :)

My 90 gts is getting an engine swap with the gt4 this week. Has anyone heard of a 'standalone' to replace the wiring harness of the engine. Supposively Im getting that, not sure, but it is suppose to minimize wires in bay area plus it has a boost control built into it. It cost about $1500. What do you guys know about it?

a standalone is an engine managment system like apexi power fc and such, it replaces your stock ecu

IMO you shouldnt have odne that. should have swapped it with the harnesses and stock ecu then replaceed the ecu after it got running

your most liekly going to run into some headachs because of this

I just recently blew the head gasket on my '86 Celica GT (2SE stock engine) and I'm thinking that instead of fixing it I would rather swap in a 3S-GTE. The car has about 155,000 miles on it and my mechanic told me that head gasket is a weak point in this particular car's engine. Before I make any actual decisions, however, I have some questions about this particular swap. First, what should be done with the transmission if I get the swap? Would the original transmission (assuming a new clutch, etc) be able to be used and if that so would it be able to handle the new engine? Would a RHD wiring harness be usuable? Are there any things about this particular engine swap that would cause problems, and what are those problems?

I really appreciate any help I can get with this. Be warned however, that my knowledge of cars is somewhat basic (that's why I'll be getting this done instead of doing it myself for instance), so forgive me if I have to ask for clarification.

Thanks so much!

I just recently blew the head gasket on my '86 Celica GT (2SE stock engine) and I'm thinking that instead of fixing it I would rather swap in a 3S-GTE. The car has about 155,000 miles on it and my mechanic told me that head gasket is a weak point in this particular car's engine. Before I make any actual decisions, however, I have some questions about this particular swap. First, what should be done with the transmission if I get the swap? Would the original transmission (assuming a new clutch, etc) be able to be used and if that so would it be able to handle the new engine? Would a RHD wiring harness be usuable? Are there any things about this particular engine swap that would cause problems, and what are those problems?

I really appreciate any help I can get with this. Be warned however, that my knowledge of cars is somewhat basic (that's why I'll be getting this done instead of doing it myself for instance), so forgive me if I have to ask for clarification.

Thanks so much!
your mechanic is a tard. theres nothing wrong with the factory 2se headgasket
you should either get ahold of a 5sfe or mr2 3sgte transmission and use it. the mr2 (93+) is better than the 5sfe to use. if you used a 5sfe tranny you would need 5sfe disk 3sgte plate. te original tranny wouldnt b used.
yes you can use a RHD wiring harness. for$300 you can have your wiring harness done for you completely plug and play. PM me for details
depending on witch engine you get (and i would say get a clip) it can be pretty painstaking to not that bad

Forgive my ignorance but what's a clip? Thanks again.